The New Jedi Order vs the 501st Legion

[DudeGuyMan]

The 501st are soldiers, not secret police or intelligence agents.

[PainRack]

Technically, Nulls and ARCs are assigned to work with the 501st, and these had set up clone intelligence units as well as the counter-terrorist/actual terrorist cell on Coruscant.

Seriously, I have no idea what Karen was thinking. Her counter-terrorist unit operated more like vigilantes, well, terrorists at the end.

[Knife]

That has always bugged me. What the fuck is Clone intelligence? Perhaps the last thing you want in intel is people who look exactly the same and you can make out in a crowd easily. I mean, a room full of Clone analysts? Sure, couple hundred Clone's sneaking around asking questions? No.

[Luke Skywalker]

That has always bugged me. What the fuck is Clone intelligence? Perhaps the last thing you want in intel is people who look exactly the same and you can make out in a crowd easily. I mean, a room full of Clone analysts? Sure, couple hundred Clone's sneaking around asking questions? No.

But who's going to notice that, out of hundreds of billions of people, a few happen to look alike, something that can easily be disguised with proper makeup?

[Knife]

That has always bugged me. What the fuck is Clone intelligence? Perhaps the last thing you want in intel is people who look exactly the same and you can make out in a crowd easily. I mean, a room full of Clone analysts? Sure, couple hundred Clone's sneaking around asking questions? No.

But who's going to notice that, out of hundreds of billions of people, a few happen to look alike, something that can easily be disguised with proper makeup?

It's not a few, it's all of them. Every single one of the Kamino clones look the same. The same face the enemy knows. Not good spy stuff.

[Darth Tedious]

And the New Zealand accent stands out a little...

[Adam Reynolds]

If we ignore Traviss and simply go by the ROTS movie and novelization, all that the Clone Intelligence units did amounted to the same type of signal intelligence that military units seem to dominate in today's world given that they are more likely to have the proper assets in place. In addition to that, ARC troopers also are occasionally involved in intelligence operations, most notably in Labyrinth of Evil with the hunt for Darth Sidious, However in that case, they were used as their role of a special forces unit, not spies.

[PainRack]

Did Karen use ARCs as spies?

I don't recall that they were used that way. They were used to gather intelligence, but more as investigators rather than spywork.

[Adam Reynolds]

Did Karen use ARCs as spies?

I don't recall that they were used that way. They were used to gather intelligence, but more as investigators rather than spywork.

No, I was referring to their use in LOE and in the short stories written by Aaron Allston from the insider series. I personally just ignore all of the works of Traviss, unless in a versus debate where the official canon policies must be used .

[PainRack]

I think you mentioned and others have mentioned that Clone Intelligence units were used as spies. I'm just wondering which work this factoid came up in.

[MKSheppard]

As much as I disliked the NJO books, these Jedi have been through war, were trained for war, were trained by a Jedi Master who himself were trained for war.

The 501st Legion canonically on screen cleared out the Jedi Temple, in close quarters combat against well-trained force users (remember at that point, the Clone Wars had been going on for years; meaning every Jedi had some combat training refreshers).

A quick check on the star wars wikia says the jedi temple was 500m wide and about 1km high. Even if we account for the spires taking up half the height, that's still about 125 million m3 that have to be cleared of Jedi Users; and they did it in the time span that it took Obi-Wan and Yoda to arrive on Coruscant.

That's pretty impressive, especially when you consider historical urban combat in real life (Stalingrad factories etc).

[Metahive]

They had superultramegachoseononeforcescion Anakin with them as equalizer. Do we also have any numbers on how many troopers were lost in the attack on the temple and how many Jedi, especially knights and masters were present though?

[MKSheppard]

They had superultramegachoseononeforcescion Anakin with them as equalizer.

One Jedi is not exactly an equalizer.

Do we also have any numbers on how many troopers were lost in the attack on the temple and how many Jedi, especially knights and masters were present though?

Unfortunately, no.

[Metahive]

It's not just "one Jedi", it's the Chosen One Scion of the Force. But even if we ignore his combat prowess, he's for certain supplied the 501st with the intel they needed to efficiently clear the building.

[MKSheppard]

It's not just "one Jedi", it's the Chosen One Scion of the Force.

It's still one guy. Anakin can't turn into 50 clones of himself and be in 50 places at once.

But even if we ignore his combat prowess, he's for certain supplied the 501st with the intel they needed to efficiently clear the building.

Um....they'd already have all the intel they need to clear it; namely floor plans, average population of the temple in certain areas etc thanks to Palpatine.

[StarSword]

A lot of the Jedi at the Temple were apprentices, younglings, and people like Jocasta Nu, a librarian. Non-combat personnel, in other words. The Jedi also still saw themselves as peacekeepers, not warriors. Also also, it was a surprise attack. We can easily see the 501st in Operation Knightfall butchering Jedi caught off-guard (and other clones all across the galaxy doing the same). Once the surprise wore off, sheer weight of numbers and the presence of Anakin Skywalker finished the job. Despite all these advantages, in the novelization dozens of clones were killed in a single skirmish during the operation, when a group of apprentices blocked a chokepoint with a veritable wall of lightsabers. It took Skywalker himself to break through.

Now compare it to Obi-wan and Yoda's performance when they infiltrated the Temple to reprogram the "return home" signal. Two elite Jedi who knew well ahead of time what they were getting into easily flattened the clones guarding the building.

Now consider how the NJO performed in crises like the Yuuzhan Vong War and the Dark Nest Crisis. These are Jedi who were mostly born and raised during the Galactic Civil War. Many, like the Skywalkers and Solos, Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, etc. are ex-military. Others, like the Dathomiri members of the order, have unusual Force powers. In all cases, they know how to fight and are trained in guerrilla tactics.

[Darth Fanboy]

A lot of the Jedi at the Temple were apprentices, younglings, and people like Jocasta Nu, a librarian. Non-combat personnel......

There were still Masters and Knights there, including some very prominent ones. The apprentices and younglings you write off may not have had the experience of a knight or master, but still were quite dangerous as Bail Organa witnessed as Zett Jukassa tried to battle his way out of the temple. There was also the Jedi Temple Security Force (Wookieepedia entry) that still had a presence, it's lower canon but still canon.

[Knife]

As much as I disliked the NJO books, these Jedi have been through war, were trained for war, were trained by a Jedi Master who himself were trained for war.

The 501st Legion canonically on screen cleared out the Jedi Temple, in close quarters combat against well-trained force users (remember at that point, the Clone Wars had been going on for years; meaning every Jedi had some combat training refreshers).

A quick check on the star wars wikia says the jedi temple was 500m wide and about 1km high. Even if we account for the spires taking up half the height, that's still about 125 million m3 that have to be cleared of Jedi Users; and they did it in the time span that it took Obi-Wan and Yoda to arrive on Coruscant.

That's pretty impressive, especially when you consider historical urban combat in real life (Stalingrad factories etc).

Perhaps I should rephrase, the NJO was an organization trained for war, it's doctrines, it's combat training, it's organization. The old Order was an organization of Peace Keepers. Even after 3 years of war, most of the Jedi were brought up in, trained in, and held dear the doctrines of the old Order. Skywalker was trained to defeat the Sith, end/stop. While he went on a galactic sabbatical to find info on how to train Jedi, his own training was centered around fighting. His students spent the next 20 years fighting wars and conflict, not as Peace Keepers but as central combatants.

It's a lot like the Clones really. The 501st was a bunch of Clones who were born and trained all their life (granted, not a long time due to quickened aging) for war. The Clones when they entered the war, were already trained for war, had a doctrine for war, and an organization designed for war. Unlike, say the Defense Volunteers of Naboo, or something like that on member worlds.

Individuals might or might not be good in one on one combat but that doesn't reflect the organization's ability to wage war. Say like a cop, a bog standard cop has enough weapons training and tactical training that in any combat he has a sense of what to do. But that is different than a Police department going to war, they are not set up for it, nor are it's institutions set up to wage, plan, supply, or prosecute a war. That's the difference between the new and old Order.

[PainRack]

I would once again say that the Jedi under Luke has fought against much more severe odds such as the invasion of Yavin IV in Darksaber. Other similar scenarios would be the Battle of Ithor, Anakin strike team against the worldship...
In other words, we already have similar matchups and the NJO won.

The potential reasons are legion. Surprise for example, the Clonetroopers were initially successful due to surprise and disbelief by the Jedi that their troops would turn on them. Force powers, the Shroud, as well as the Clones indoctrination etc all were reasons given that explained why Clonetroopers were able to effectively attack Jedi. Perhaps, the Jedi were able to get a sense of danger but disbelieved that it could come from the Clones, we certainly see such a possibility in the movie. The "perfect" Jedi trap explictly mentioned that the Jedi were caught off guard and their powers muted due to the war itself in the novelisation. Belief and expectations apparently play much into Force powers.

The 501st were also attacking a target that was significantly undermanned. The novel made it clear that most of the Jedi Knights/Masters had been dispersed throughout the galaxy to fight the war, making them vulnerable to clone ambush. This suggests that the Temple itself was undermanned, especially since we do know that Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker were supposedly defending the temple and Mace took council member Jedi to confront Palpatine. All this combine to suggest that whoever was left would not be combat leaders as such, combine this with Anakin and him overpowering resistance.... not to mention the shock value....

Lastly, the scenario gave no time for the Jedi to prepare a defence. They were wide open. The NJO on the other hand are prepared.

[Metahive]

The potential reasons are legion. Surprise for example, the Clonetroopers were initially successful due to surprise and disbelief by the Jedi that their troops would turn on them.

I really can't believe the Jedi were that oblivious, especially with the knowledge that the guy who provided the genetic template and handled the money transfer was a hired gun of Count Dooku. I mean they had to be incredibly stupid to not harbor the least bit of suspicion of their troop's actual loyalty. I'd offer the alternate explanation that the Jedi were being too overly confident in their ability to sniff out murderous or treacherous intent within their charges in time.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Hold on just a second. We are talking about the New Jedi Order that has Grand Master Luke Skywalker in it right? The guy who fucking bullet-times bullet-timers, fights off two dozen guys in melee at once, can topple citadels with a thought, and can jump a couple kilometers in a couple minutes? The same one that has Jacen Solo who deflects light turbolaser bolts with no effect from waste energies and isn't significantly far behind his uncle?

[StarSword]

Your point being?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Your point being?

NJO Luke has the ability to solo this, adding Jacen, Mara, and Katarn make this very simple. Without Luke there's room for debate, with him this is a curbstomp.