Are "The Clone Wars" and "The Force Unleashed" Canon?

[Havok]

Movies
Movie notes, production or otherwise
Movie Novels
Movie Source Material (ICS, Visual Dictionaries)
TV shows: Live action> The Clone Wars> Clone Wars
Novels
Novel source books
Comic books
Comic book source books
Video games: Main story+cutscenes> alternate story+cutscenes> game mechanics

[Havok]

I should note that I don't necessarily agree with the way this is done as I don't see why novels are any more valid than comic books. Most of the detail in a book is just describing that which is seen in a comic.

As far as Star Wars, comics and novels usually share about the same quality of writing and story. That is an insult aimed at both parties.

[Darth Tedious]

I'm surprised game stories are so far down the list.

[Havok]

Well it's not so much 'down' the list as more what supersedes what.

If nothing is contradicting anything, then it is all canon. All sources are equal. The list only determines which source becomes non canon if say the The Clone Wars and a comic book shows XYZ happening to Mace Windu at a specific time. The Clone Wars version becomes the accepted version and thus canon because it is 'closer to the source material' as determined by Lucasfilm and GL's OK.

It's like if you read something happening in the Return of the Jedi novel, that is simply impossible to correlate time wise to what is shown happening in the movie. That event would then be tossed out. But anything that is doesn't contradict what happens, or is plausible 'off camera' (i.e. the Millenium Falcoln flying through a Star Destroyer) is accepted and will never be contradicted, because nothing but Return of the Jedi is considered a 'higher source' than the Return of the Jedi novel.

[jemimabutterworth]

my apologies. clearly i was mistaken. thanks for reminding me why i love sfj, though.

[Havok]

I'm not sure I get your meaning. Do you not like the Lucasfilm canon policy? Or are you upset that it includes the story from TFU? And what is sfj and why did you get reminded you love it?

Part of the the status of game mechanics being the only source that everything else contradicts, is that effectively, it is almost completely non-canon.

For example, it is a fact that Anakin and Yoda are two of the most powerful Force users ever, so Starkiller having the level of power shown is almost immediately de-canonized. If he were truly that powerful, he would have no problem dealing with Palpatine and Vader with his hands tied behind his back.

Yoda struggles with single senate pods, x-wings, and stone pillars. Palpatine and Yoda routinely have to jump out of the way of objects thrown at them. Anakin doesn't do much more than throw battledroids around. Starkiller crashes and stops Star Destroyers and moves other space ship ship sized objects around routinely and with ease.

Obviously, one of these examples falls outside of what has been shown by the highest canon sources to be in the realm of abilities of even the most powerful Jedi.

In effect, TFU, and most games for that matter, outside of some story elements, are not canon.

[Vympel]

I'm not sure I get your meaning. Do you not like the Lucasfilm canon policy? Or are you upset that it includes the story from TFU? And what is sfj and why did you get reminded you love it?

SFJ = Starfleet Jedi. Just the latest iteration of 'vs debate' centric forums which mostly appears to busy itself with complaining about what people say on other forums that its members got kicked out of (mostly spacebattles.com).

Fun fact, whenever you type 'bullshit' on that forum, its automatically turned into 'reasonable'. I'm not even kidding.

[Havok]

Oh... I know that place. I made an account there to see if it was really as Mike Wong hating as someone said... It was.

I don't know why they put the 'Jedi' in there. At least we are honest about which side we support.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Oh... I know that place. I made an account there to see if it was really as Mike Wong hating as someone said... It was.

I don't know why they put the 'Jedi' in there. At least we are honest about which side we support.

Not as often as they used to. Now they obsess over SB.com. They're convinced that Spacebattles is part of a Warsie/40ker Mod conspiracy to keep Trek down. One of the guys, Oragahn, uses new SB members to proxy post.

Edit: Lol 1216 Matches for Wong.

[Connor MacLeod]

People obsess over canon far too much, because they're too worried about "winning" or "losing" the debate (because thats what it comes down to.) It's either "ICS dominates" or "ICS is refuted" because I'm willing to bet THIS is what the whole TFU and TCW shit comes down to. And if it's not canon, they obsess over the interpretations (to be fair they did this back in the pre-ICS times too, but eh...) and which interpretation is MORE canonical. It's become fucking religion by now.

If there are actual problems with the material you try to work through them, not decide which one trumps the other because canon is as fluid and prone to change as the wind and then the entire thing comes crashing down. Best to find answers that can best fit all the available evidence with the minimum of dismissal. And that means trying to fit in the ICS material, even if it means reinterpreting it or even dismissing some of it.

[jemimabutterworth]

Mojo and Mr O's recent antics inspired this rant I hope its enjoyed by all parties though

the one thing I don`t get is why the hell people assume hypercompetence for the leadership? all the imperial CO`s shown in the movies where complete fuckwits minus piet`s secretary who was like ¨we`re not attacking them? WTF¨

and sidious is the biggest fucking retard of them all I mean seriously wtf was darth plagius the mother Teresa of sith? did this fucker adopt a special needs force adept or someshit? I mean wtf! I mean it man the guy gets presented as this enigmatic shadow who controls all

but when we actually see the fucker in action?

Mace windu: yo darth you under arrest dawg and I da best duelist evuurr and i has teh vapaad sith kryptonite!!!

Darth Sidious: LMAO orealmente? I has teh lightingzzz!!!

Mace: EPIC FAIL! *deflects*

Anakin shows up: OH NOEZ MACE KENTUCKY FRIED TEH MAN WHOS GUNNA SAVE MY GUUURRRLLL DEEEERPPP!!!! SUPER BACK STAB POWERS ACTIVATE

mace: LOLz i fell down

and then later in the fucking senate chamber after the complete ownage the moron receives him sidious master of the sith and the guy who with out his brand new empire falls!!

Yoda:Kung Fu your Kentucky fried ass I will

Darth deep fried* WEEEE IMA THROWING UR CHAIRS ALL UP IN UR SENATEZ LULZ!!

Yoda* end this deep fried morons lunacy I will kamehameha!!! *lighting deflect technique*

sidious: LOL i fell down...can i haz storm trooper help?

I mean his aids must of been fucking face palming constantly AND AT ENDOR!! MOTHER OF GOD!!

Admiral Akbar: the shields are still up enemy vessels behind us blocking our retreat! ITS A TWAP!!

piet: LOL trolled you admiral goggle eyes!! *piets secretary roles in* we can fire lazurs at rebel scum now??

piet: lol do you want to make deep fried dark lord mad? then no no you cannot haz lazur time with goggle eyes! the deep fried one ordered us to keep them from escaping so teh slow moving partially naked super eye ball on an easy to predict and thus avoid trajectory to shoot them

piets secretary: NO WAI!!!

piet: I know first i was like *head Desk* than I lol`d a little

and then you have Sidious fantastic fucking torturing of Anakins kid keep in mind he turned anakin because the guy was known for fliping out over family issues and being all clingy and shit thus the torturing of luke was in essence the wrong fucking thing to do knowing this!!!

Luke: lol no STFU deep fried lord I`ll never join you

Sidous: HERPADERP IMA FIREN MAH LIGHTENZZZZ!!!! AND KILLENZ UR CHILDRENZ

Darth Vader:...orly *throws down chasm* sidious* LOLZ I FALL DOWN AGAIN

I mean seriously every time those dudes on SB and SDN claim competence and intelligence and common sense on the part of the imperials and trek forces are stupid i fucking laugh I can do another post like this over the jedi council too I mean seriously? LOL TREK SOLDIERS ARE TEH STUYPIDZ it takes a consummate troll to claim this straight face with out bringing up darth special ed

I mean jesus man I wouldnt trust sidious to cut my fucking grass with out blendering his face out of sheer incompetence much less rule a galaxy

thats the biggest weakness the raging retardation of the sw leadership and no matter how much the die hard fanbase tries to cover this up by attacking treks own CIS its never changing and cannot be hidden

*has a sinking suspicion SWST or any SDNER who reads this will end up hulking out and raging nonstop*

[jemimabutterworth]

Oh... I know that place. I made an account there to see if it was really as Mike Wong hating as someone said... It was.

I don't know why they put the 'Jedi' in there. At least we are honest about which side we support.

i don't really know how to put it any other way. i was hoping the polite tone and smilie at the end would show that i didn't intend offense. i guess i don't have the right attitude. what i meant is that back at sfj, it was stated at one point that i might fit in better here because i don't eh, stick to the topic at hand and all that. but, and don't take this the wrong way, i don't think i'm nearly enough of an asshole to stand the debating style here. again, honest to god i wasn't trying to offend.
that's plenty of boring drama shit. i wouldn't have bothered at all but while i was reading the archives i got to like the way you think, particularly.
anybody else get a lol out of addy's rant up there? i fucking DIED.

[jemimabutterworth]

oh, also, the jedi is in the title to signify that it's part of the star wars/star trek debate, not that it's unbiased. that's my understanding, anyway, i don't know that for absolute fact.

[Vympel]

jemimabutterworth, I have no idea what any of that in your last few posts even means. This may be partly because of your refusal to use capitals makes your longer posts nigh unreadable. I require you to start the proper use of capitals from now on.

[Connor MacLeod]

jemima: look, I'm going to sound harsh here. I apologize for that but we have to make something clear, so if you feel singled out, I apologize. But no one really cares about that other forum and what they're currently saying. Yes, I know what they're like, as do others, but many people have gotten long since past caring about what they or what specific members say. It basically comes to the same reason Darkstar threads are nonexistent: its always the same song and dance, it never changes, people have better things to waste their time on, and don't really care.

I assume you didnt know, since you look relatively new and stuff, and I haven't forgotten when I was a newcomer to a forum, so I hope you can just take it as a friendly bit of advice for the future.

[JasonB]

I hope Video game lowest form cannon fact single X wing can take some ten hits still fly.

[jemimabutterworth]

It's possible I wasn't clear. I didn't bring up SFJ because I thought people here would care, I brought it up in the first place because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't a COMPLETE n00b to the sw/st thing. Then it was brought up again, not by me, I was simply answering a question. I wasn't thinking that you guys were just dying for information about SFJ or anything. And also, holy shit, I can't believe you thought I'd be offended by your post. It was reading the forum archives here that made me think I should vamoose in the first place. I kind of thought I would be eaten alive. Now I'm in the truly awkward and lame position where I already kind of said I was leaving, but the way I've been treated since makes me think I was wrong to do it. I'm going to fall back to lurking and maybe in a year or so people will forget I did the 'bye guys' routine and I will try again.

[Havok]

Mojo and Mr O's recent antics inspired this rant I hope its enjoyed by all parties though

the one thing I don`t get is why the hell people assume hypercompetence for the leadership? all the imperial CO`s shown in the movies where complete fuckwits minus piet`s secretary who was like ¨we`re not attacking them? WTF¨

and sidious is the biggest fucking retard of them all I mean seriously wtf was darth plagius the mother Teresa of sith? did this fucker adopt a special needs force adept or someshit? I mean wtf! I mean it man the guy gets presented as this enigmatic shadow who controls all

but when we actually see the fucker in action?

Mace windu: yo darth you under arrest dawg and I da best duelist evuurr and i has teh vapaad sith kryptonite!!!

Darth Sidious: LMAO orealmente? I has teh lightingzzz!!!

Mace: EPIC FAIL! *deflects*

Anakin shows up: OH NOEZ MACE KENTUCKY FRIED TEH MAN WHOS GUNNA SAVE MY GUUURRRLLL DEEEERPPP!!!! SUPER BACK STAB POWERS ACTIVATE

mace: LOLz i fell down

and then later in the fucking senate chamber after the complete ownage the moron receives him sidious master of the sith and the guy who with out his brand new empire falls!!

Yoda:Kung Fu your Kentucky fried ass I will

Darth deep fried* WEEEE IMA THROWING UR CHAIRS ALL UP IN UR SENATEZ LULZ!!

Yoda* end this deep fried morons lunacy I will kamehameha!!! *lighting deflect technique*

sidious: LOL i fell down...can i haz storm trooper help?

I mean his aids must of been fucking face palming constantly AND AT ENDOR!! MOTHER OF GOD!!

Admiral Akbar: the shields are still up enemy vessels behind us blocking our retreat! ITS A TWAP!!

piet: LOL trolled you admiral goggle eyes!! *piets secretary roles in* we can fire lazurs at rebel scum now??

piet: lol do you want to make deep fried dark lord mad? then no no you cannot haz lazur time with goggle eyes! the deep fried one ordered us to keep them from escaping so teh slow moving partially naked super eye ball on an easy to predict and thus avoid trajectory to shoot them

piets secretary: NO WAI!!!

piet: I know first i was like *head Desk* than I lol`d a little

and then you have Sidious fantastic fucking torturing of Anakins kid keep in mind he turned anakin because the guy was known for fliping out over family issues and being all clingy and shit thus the torturing of luke was in essence the wrong fucking thing to do knowing this!!!

Luke: lol no STFU deep fried lord I`ll never join you

Sidous: HERPADERP IMA FIREN MAH LIGHTENZZZZ!!!! AND KILLENZ UR CHILDRENZ

Darth Vader:...orly *throws down chasm* sidious* LOLZ I FALL DOWN AGAIN

I mean seriously every time those dudes on SB and SDN claim competence and intelligence and common sense on the part of the imperials and trek forces are stupid i fucking laugh I can do another post like this over the jedi council too I mean seriously? LOL TREK SOLDIERS ARE TEH STUYPIDZ it takes a consummate troll to claim this straight face with out bringing up darth special ed

I mean jesus man I wouldnt trust sidious to cut my fucking grass with out blendering his face out of sheer incompetence much less rule a galaxy

thats the biggest weakness the raging retardation of the sw leadership and no matter how much the die hard fanbase tries to cover this up by attacking treks own CIS its never changing and cannot be hidden

*has a sinking suspicion SWST or any SDNER who reads this will end up hulking out and raging nonstop*

I'm guessing that these are the sentiments of those from the first sentence and you just haven't mastered quotation marks or quote tags?

[Darksider]

judging from the content of that post, he hasn't mastered english

either he's just trolling on purpose, or he's a 14-year old with a minimal understanding of grammar.

EDIT: You know what? Combine the poor grasp of grammar with his borderline-racist avatar, and you get a very familiar combination.

I think we've got another -channer on our hands.

[Panzersharkcat]

I hope Video game lowest form cannon fact single X wing can take some ten hits still fly.

It's "canon," not "cannon," goddamnit. And yes, game mechanics are the lowest form of canon. Havoc pointed that out on the top of the goddamn page.

-snip-

What.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's possible I wasn't clear. I didn't bring up SFJ because I thought people here would care, I brought it up in the first place because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't a COMPLETE n00b to the sw/st thing. Then it was brought up again, not by me, I was simply answering a question. I wasn't thinking that you guys were just dying for information about SFJ or anything. And also, holy shit, I can't believe you thought I'd be offended by your post. It was reading the forum archives here that made me think I should vamoose in the first place. I kind of thought I would be eaten alive. Now I'm in the truly awkward and lame position where I already kind of said I was leaving, but the way I've been treated since makes me think I was wrong to do it. I'm going to fall back to lurking and maybe in a year or so people will forget I did the 'bye guys' routine and I will try again.

As long as you avoid News & Politics, you think CAREFULLY before you post and watch how other people do, read the rules (Important) and you don't argue out of pride and can admit you're wrong, you'll fit in just fine. YEs, there are people who seem to have no other purpose than to leap on people and yell/flame at them, but that doesn't mean they're justified.

And if I misinterpreted you I apologize. It's common for such groups to get mentioned as a way of gaining a sort of "street cred", and it just gets repeittive and tiresome, so when we see them mentioned for some it gets knee jerk. Personally you don't have to "prove" anything insofar as the debate goes IMHO, because being a "vet" is meaningless. It's by the quality and intelligence of your posts that you are judged (some of the more intelligent people in the sci fi forums didn't evne participate in the SW vs ST debates back when I was doing it.)

Of course if you still want to leave that's your choice.

[Havok]

judging from the content of that post, he hasn't mastered english

either he's just trolling on purpose, or he's a 14-year old with a minimal understanding of grammar.

EDIT: You know what? Combine the poor grasp of grammar with his borderline-racist avatar, and you get a very familiar combination.

I think we've got another -channer on our hands.

What I'm saying is, if you actually read it, is that he quoted what someone else from SFJ and just didn't attribute it.

[jemimabutterworth]

judging from the content of that post, he hasn't mastered english

either he's just trolling on purpose, or he's a 14-year old with a minimal understanding of grammar.

EDIT: You know what? Combine the poor grasp of grammar with his borderline-racist avatar, and you get a very familiar combination.

I think we've got another -channer on our hands.

There's a member over at SFJ who will debate or rant in chan/leetspeak/lolcat once in a while. As far as I can remember, he's never ranted about star wars this way, only st. It seemed like a bizarre coincidence that he did one just as i signed up here, so i posted it. He actually complained because he was positive I was going to inadvertently start world war 3. I didn't see it. I thought it was hilarious.
I really, really hope that it was the grammar in that rant and not just my posts in general that you had the problem with.
Honestly, I wasn't trolling, I just wanted to share the funny.
I can see where my profile pic of a black cook in civil war times would look kind of racist especially when my name has to do with food, but it's just a pic of the actual Aunt Jemima, who amazingly turns out not to have been created in a board room to sell syrup.

[jemimabutterworth]

What I'm saying is, if you actually read it, is that he quoted what someone else from SFJ and just didn't attribute it.

He seemed genuinely worried that this forum was going to explode with rage for some reason. Like I said, I didn't think anything would happen, but I didn't want him to have to take the brunt of it if I was wrong.

[Darth Tedious]

I hope Video game lowest form cannon fact single X wing can take some ten hits still fly.

It's "canon," not "cannon," goddamnit. And yes, game mechanics are the lowest form of canon. Havoc pointed that out on the top of the goddamn page.

I see you're not familiar with Jason. Asking him to use proper spelling or grammer is akin to pissing in the wind. Just be thankful you were able to decipher his post- that is good by his standards.

He seemed genuinely worried that this forum was going to explode with rage for some reason. Like I said, I didn't think anything would happen, but I didn't want him to have to take the brunt of it if I was wrong.

Perhaps he doesn't realise, but it tends that the people here aren't a bunch of rampant Warsie fuckwits. It is quite true that there is a massive degree of mistakes made at the highest echelons of Imperial command. I'm surprised he didn't mention Tarkin. Noone here will pick on anyone for making a valid point, though he does make it in a hatflappingly retarded way.