Did EU jump the shark with the Yuuzhan Vong?

[bobalot]

To be perfectly honest, I haven't read much of EU other than the Thrawn Trilogy and a few other books (I could be described as a "casual" star wars fan). I was enjoying most of these books until I started reading about the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. This was a few years ago and all I remember was that I simply hated it. Completely put me off Star Wars EU and I have never read a book since.

I have never really followed any of the Star Wars talk on this forum, so I'm just curious to what people generally think about the Yuuzhan Vong storyline.

[AMT]

To be perfectly honest, I haven't read much of EU other than the Thrawn Trilogy and a few other books (I could be described as a "casual" star wars fan). I was enjoying most of these books until I started reading about the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. This was a few years ago and all I remember was that I simply hated it. Completely put me off Star Wars EU and I have never read a book since.

I have never really followed any of the Star Wars talk on this forum, so I'm just curious to what people generally think about the Yuuzhan Vong storyline.

I'd say that the Shark was well and truly Jumped when the REBORN EMPEROR and his wanktastic powers in Dark Empire I/II came about. Compared to that, whats a little Biotech?

[Eleas]

And I'd quite disagree. Overpowering and wanking out is one thing. What the Yuuzhan Vong brought to the EU, however, was the complete antithesis to the matinee feel of Star Wars. It was the rejection of Star Wars as space opera.

As Wikipedia would have it, "Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in outer space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing advanced technologies and abilities." A cogent enough analyis. It moves on to say, "Perhaps the most significant trait of space opera is that settings, characters, battles, powers, and themes tend to be very large-scale."

Dark Empire I and II were both romantic, melodramatic affairs. They both involved large-scale, larger-than-life opposition of primal monomythical stature. Whereas the NJO abandoned the large-scale epic tropes and themes, largely out of what I'd term sloppiness.

Oh, the setpieces of romantic space pulp was dutifully added - moons were crashed, small ships going pew-pew, planets invaded... but there was nothing of the "most significant" bit left. Neither the setting, nor its powers and battles, were allowed to truly inform or drive the story. As for characters and themes... well. Point me to them, and you may convince me as to the fact that they even exist. Until then, I'll continue to doubt it severely.

In Dark Empire (and this is why DE works for me) everything is not just large-scale, but the themes and the myths and failures are towering. The heroes grapple with them directly, at a personal level, and emerge (until Empire's End) from the ashes stronger but wiser.

In NJO? If it had been a retelling of Gilgamesh, it would have focused on Enkidu's drug problems. Had it followed Beowulf, it would have told of the growing anti-Hroðgar sentiment among the councillors of Heorot. For all the scale of its proportions, the NJO as a saga is timid and mired in its own inertia. Its villains reflect this.

Villains are necessary. Take Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate, for instance. Better yet, take Scorpius from Farscape. He's even in key areas alike the Surpreme Overlord Shimrra (assuming I recall this forgettable sod's name aright), in that he's highly intelligent, a brilliant strategist, a strong warrior, and, let's not forget, cadaverous in appearance.

But Scorpius is also an effective villain. He takes things down to a personal level, and it becomes impossible to be equianimous in his presence. He thwarts the heroes at every turn. He hurts them - not just in terms of wounds but personally, often viciously, but never without a reason - and when they hurt him in return he seeks revenge and redress. A bond is formed. In the end, Scorpius and John Crichton are so intertwined, they almost define each other.

What do the Vong define in our heroes? At all? Not a thing. For fuck's sake, they didn't even get Han Solo to wear a gimp suit.

[Pelranius]

The Force Unleashed is probably the shark jumping moment for me.

[TC Pilot]

The NJO was definetely a bad series, but SW has produced worse. Legacy of the Force had all of the NJO's flaws as a series with none of its strengths. TFU, particularly its DLC and the sequel are also pretty abysmal, and is much more of a direct assault on the movies than any book series.

[Thanas]

I think the NJO was passable.

What broke the EU for me was the utter dreck that was Swarm War and the Travissty.

[AMT]

And I'd quite disagree. Overpowering and wanking out is one thing. What the Yuuzhan Vong brought to the EU, however, was the complete antithesis to the matinee feel of Star Wars. It was the rejection of Star Wars as space opera.

As Wikipedia would have it, "Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in outer space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing advanced technologies and abilities." A cogent enough analyis. It moves on to say, "Perhaps the most significant trait of space opera is that settings, characters, battles, powers, and themes tend to be very large-scale."

Dark Empire I and II were both romantic, melodramatic affairs. They both involved large-scale, larger-than-life opposition of primal monomythical stature. Whereas the NJO abandoned the large-scale epic tropes and themes, largely out of what I'd term sloppiness.

Oh, the setpieces of romantic space pulp was dutifully added - moons were crashed, small ships going pew-pew, planets invaded... but there was nothing of the "most significant" bit left. Neither the setting, nor its powers and battles, were allowed to truly inform or drive the story. As for characters and themes... well. Point me to them, and you may convince me as to the fact that they even exist. Until then, I'll continue to doubt it severely.

In Dark Empire (and this is why DE works for me) everything is not just large-scale, but the themes and the myths and failures are towering. The heroes grapple with them directly, at a personal level, and emerge (until Empire's End) from the ashes stronger but wiser.

In NJO? If it had been a retelling of Gilgamesh, it would have focused on Enkidu's drug problems. Had it followed Beowulf, it would have told of the growing anti-Hroðgar sentiment among the councillors of Heorot. For all the scale of its proportions, the NJO as a saga is timid and mired in its own inertia. Its villains reflect this.

Villains are necessary. Take Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate, for instance. Better yet, take Scorpius from Farscape. He's even in key areas alike the Surpreme Overlord Shimrra (assuming I recall this forgettable sod's name aright), in that he's highly intelligent, a brilliant strategist, a strong warrior, and, let's not forget, cadaverous in appearance.

But Scorpius is also an effective villain. He takes things down to a personal level, and it becomes impossible to be equianimous in his presence. He thwarts the heroes at every turn. He hurts them - not just in terms of wounds but personally, often viciously, but never without a reason - and when they hurt him in return he seeks revenge and redress. A bond is formed. In the end, Scorpius and John Crichton are so intertwined, they almost define each other.

What do the Vong define in our heroes? At all? Not a thing. For fuck's sake, they didn't even get Han Solo to wear a gimp suit.

You see, I have to disagree with this. The Vong series, while not nearly high drama, did serve as a grand set piece between two opposing forces. If anything, the Vong were a case of being a set of bad guys who became that due to issues they didn't understand.

Not all villains need to be machievellian mustache twirlers like Scorpius.

As for what they defined? I'd say they helped define the new generation for Star Wars, in character and out, for better or worse. It caused the end of the New Republic and the formation of what was to come, helped define the fall of Jacen Solo, and helped showcase what he could have been.

Dark Empire? It was "Original Trilogy XTREME!".

Same bad guy, same good guys, at the end the status quo remains the same. Hell, even the threats are somewhat similar (evil Emperor has world destroying guns! The good guys are hunted rebels! Luke Skywalker is tempted by the Dark Side!).

It did nothing to push the storyline, except for again, the wanking of the Force and Palpatine, while assaulting us with its hackneyed plot and horrendous art.

[Thanas]

Agreed regarding Dark Empire, especially as it seemed to be more of a wankfest of who can pull out the bigger and newer weapon first. It was a simplistic tech level vs tech level comic.

However, Scorpius is definitely not mustache-twirling. He does not even care about revenge against the main heroes.

[DudeGuyMan]

Thrawn trilogy and KOTOR. The rest of the EU is pretty much shit.

[TC Pilot]

Your post runs perilously close to implying that you think TTT or KOTOR was when SW jumped the shark.

[Darth Fanboy]

I would say Dark Empire as well, the New Jedi Order was what was done to try and change things. To turn the jumped shark into the second hump of a Bactrian Camel if you will. Instead the sharkfin just got a lot steeper, sure there have been a few good things since then but a novel widely accepted as good is a rarity these days.

[AMT]

Agreed regarding Dark Empire, especially as it seemed to be more of a wankfest of who can pull out the bigger and newer weapon first. It was a simplistic tech level vs tech level comic.

However, Scorpius is definitely not mustache-twirling. He does not even care about revenge against the main heroes.

My bad, I meant mustache twirling in the machievellian sense, not the Snidely Whiplash sense.

[Eleas]

Agreed regarding Dark Empire, especially as it seemed to be more of a wankfest of who can pull out the bigger and newer weapon first. It was a simplistic tech level vs tech level comic.

While I will grant that the tech side of Dark Empire was atrocious, that was not the main thrust of my argument. The point is that there was more to the story (or so I felt) than simple tech, and that no matter how bad the story was, it had the characters calling the shots, not bickering committees or political bungling.

Moreover, I cannot agree that Dark Empire lacked mythical elements. AMT in his disagreement claimed that Dark Empire was a retread of the original trilogy. I mostly agree with that, and it only serves to illustrate my point: that whatever the flaws of Dark Empire, it did retain the archetypal character dynamics of the Space Opera genre.

Neither of these apply to the NJO.

However, Scorpius is definitely not mustache-twirling. He does not even care about revenge against the main heroes.

I also dispute Scorpious being "moustache-twirling," but you're wrong in that he doesn't care about revenge (against the main cast or otherwise).

Well, Crichton. So much to say... and yet, such little capacity. I only hope the wormhole technology I've waited so patiently for makes more sense.

Don't need a translator microbe for that one, do we? You've cost me much. And I do not suffer dissapointment well. I condemn you, John Crichton, to live! So that your thirst for unfullfilled revenge... will consume you.

Goodbye.

Clearly, Scorpius does in fact care about revenge; he is arguably the most consistently vengeful character in the show. Granted that his main vendetta against the Scarrens is the one he truly cares about, but given what we see on the show, he's certainly not gracious in defeat.

[Stofsk]

Man that was an unforgettable moment in the show. I need to rewatch Farscape again.

[TOSDOC]

I agree--for me the arc came full circle when Crichton approached Scorpius to exchange wormholes for Aeryn's life--it was a pure "sell your soul to the devil" moment, and absolutely brilliant.

To stick with the OP, I read quite a few novels before that but never made it to the Vong series. I found Zhan's ysalamiri to be an acceptable idea to counteract the force (more for controlling C'baoth than Luke) and keep it from becoming a deus ex machina. It wasn't a great idea, but a nice twist. But to hear about the Vong and how they use "biotechnology" and how their stuff was lightsaber-resistant and all, just sounded to me like writers just had to counter the "invincible" Jedi and their lightsabers to make their story dramatic and interesting. It's what turned me off from reading more. I thought there was plenty for Luke to do in Thrawn, Bakura, etc already, and good writing was what was needed instead. EDIT: That's why I like a good villian like Scorpius.

[Anguirus]

As far as my novel-reading habits are concerned, absolutely. I stopped dead after the first three books of the NJO. They weren't even that bad, I just...didn't care anymore. They were just a stupid opponent, honor-crazed ultra-violent biowanky cavemen. Didn't feel like Star Wars anymore.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In fairness to the original idea, the honor-craved sadomasochists idea was supposed to just be Commander Shedao Shai, not everybody in the Yuuzhan Vong. But, woops, someone must have missed that meeting.

[Thanas]

Neither of these apply to the NJO.

Why not? It had plenty of prophecy, gods and mythical planets.

I also dispute Scorpious being "moustache-twirling," but you're wrong in that he doesn't care about revenge (against the main cast or otherwise).

Oh, he certainly cares about revenge against Crichton, but he is willing to chuck that out in a second as soon as it serves his interests.

Granted that his main vendetta against the Scarrens is the one he truly cares about, but given what we see on the show, he's certainly not gracious in defeat.

The S3 finale would beg to differ with that. He could have easily killed Crichton there, but did not.

[Eleas]

Neither of these apply to the NJO.

Why not? It had plenty of prophecy, gods and mythical planets.

This is true for Star Trek: The Next Generation as well. Does that make TNG space opera?

Moreover, you're not meeting my point. I stated that the NJO was not character-driven, and that it did not tell the story using the archetypes of space opera. So I feel the need to restate my original question: in which book are the items you mention employed not as trivia but as themes, as dramatically significant cornerstones of what is supposedly space opera?

Oh, he certainly cares about revenge against Crichton, but he is willing to chuck that out in a second as soon as it serves his interests.

Precisely. Hence my objection to your assertion that Scorpius didn't care about revenge.

The S3 finale would beg to differ with that. He could have easily killed Crichton there, but did not.

Immaterial. The fact that he can leave well enough in certain circumstances does not mean it is part of his character; it just means he's not psychotically single-minded about it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The mythical planets would be "Zonama Sekot" a pretty central place and character in the last three books of the NJO. As for a theme of a mythical planet, how about Yuuzhan'tar, the Vong's legendary lost homeworld that they remake Coruscant into

[Eleas]

The mythical planets would be "Zonama Sekot" a pretty central place and character in the last three books of the NJO. As for a theme of a mythical planet, how about Yuuzhan'tar, the Vong's legendary lost homeworld that they remake Coruscant into

That's not a theme. That's a plot point. I grant you that they themselves probably would see it as a theme, but I wouldn't want to argue that this signifies space opera.

[Coyote]

The Star Wars EU jumped the shark when they brought in centaurs and vampires, IMO. The "superweapon-of-the-month-club" and Samurai Cavemen were just some of the larger coffin nails.

[Thanas]

Immaterial. The fact that he can leave well enough in certain circumstances does not mean it is part of his character; it just means he's not psychotically single-minded about it.

You have got to be kidding me - Chrichton made a far more devestating blow this time, denying Scorpius what he wants and he just does nothing because he does not see the point off it anymore. This means that Vengeance was a very secondary idea of his.

The mythical planets would be "Zonama Sekot" a pretty central place and character in the last three books of the NJO. As for a theme of a mythical planet, how about Yuuzhan'tar, the Vong's legendary lost homeworld that they remake Coruscant into

That's not a theme. That's a plot point. I grant you that they themselves probably would see it as a theme, but I wouldn't want to argue that this signifies space opera.

The Jedi featured far more prominently than they did in the OT as well. The final battle after all is decided by Luke going all mighty warrior on the Vong and killing their leader. Truth to be told, they have the same elements as the OT, they just do not use them very well.

[Eleas]

Immaterial. The fact that he can leave well enough in certain circumstances does not mean it is part of his character; it just means he's not psychotically single-minded about it.

You have got to be kidding me - Chrichton made a far more devestating blow this time, denying Scorpius what he wants and he just does nothing because he does not see the point off it anymore. This means that Vengeance was a very secondary idea of his.

Still immaterial to my point, Thanas. Let's go back and list things:

• I said Scorpius had a fondness to revenge, and gave several examples that were integral to his makeup as a character.
• You contested this by pointing out how Scorpius decided vengeance in one single case was no longer worth it.
• Scorpius then goes back to his main vengeance on the Scarren, to which he devotes everything he has.
• You conclude that this is because he has no interest in vengeance whatsoever, when up until then, it informed his entire behaviour, and when furthermore his other actions suggest that this one decision of his was an anomaly worthy of note.

Yes, Scorpius has grown as a person by that point. So what? Are you seriously arguing that it invalidates the Scorpius we see in seasons one to three, or that the driving force of his existence should be ignored?

That's not a theme. That's a plot point. I grant you that they themselves probably would see it as a theme, but I wouldn't want to argue that this signifies space opera.

The Jedi featured far more prominently than they did in the OT as well. The final battle after all is decided by Luke going all mighty warrior on the Vong and killing their leader. Truth to be told, they have the same elements as the OT, they just do not use them very well.

It should be self-evident that "Jedi" isn't a mythic theme unto itself, and that "showdown at the Hot Gates" doesn't suffice. Of course, I said as much already:

Moreover, you're not meeting my point. I stated that the NJO was not character-driven, and that it did not tell the story using the archetypes of space opera. So I feel the need to restate my original question: in which book are the items you mention employed not as trivia but as themes, as dramatically significant cornerstones of what is supposedly space opera?

I'm growing tired of your evasions, Thanas. This is not rocket science. It only requires that you a) quote my main points and b) address them. Please start doing this.

[Thanas]

Immaterial. The fact that he can leave well enough in certain circumstances does not mean it is part of his character; it just means he's not psychotically single-minded about it.

You have got to be kidding me - Chrichton made a far more devestating blow this time, denying Scorpius what he wants and he just does nothing because he does not see the point off it anymore. This means that Vengeance was a very secondary idea of his.

Still immaterial to my point, Thanas. Let's go back and list things:

• I said Scorpius had a fondness to revenge, and gave several examples that were integral to his makeup as a character.
• You contested this by pointing out how Scorpius decided vengeance in one single case was no longer worth it.
• Scorpius then goes back to his main vengeance on the Scarren, to which he devotes everything he has.
• You conclude that this is because he has no interest in vengeance whatsoever, when up until then, it informed his entire behaviour, and when furthermore his other actions suggest that this one decision of his was an anomaly worthy of note.

No, I concluded that vengeance against the main cast is not a priority of his. It is secondary at best. Doesn't mean he will not take it if he can, but it does mean he will not go out of his way to pursue it.

Yes, Scorpius has grown as a person by that point. So what? Are you seriously arguing that it invalidates the Scorpius we see in seasons one to three, or that the driving force of his existence should be ignored?

No, I am not saying that and I wonder how you arrive at that conclusion. The driving force of his existence is getting at the scarrans. Everything else is secondary.

I'm growing tired of your evasions, Thanas. This is not rocket science. It only requires that you a) quote my main points and b) address them. Please start doing this.

Screw you. Just because we differ in opinions as to what constitutes a theme - I would say that the search for zemona sokot is the main theme of the last Vong arc, as the philosophy of pain and prophecy of conquest is the main theme for the first arc or a plot point does not mean I evade things.

What part of

Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in outer space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing advanced technologies and abilities. The name has no relation to music, since it is by analogy to soap operas (see below). Perhaps the most significant trait of space opera is that settings, characters, battles, powers, and themes tend to be very large-scale.

does the NJO not have? You may not like them, but the elements are all there.