Force training questions

[xt828]

How does the Force manifest in a Force-sensitive person? In TPM we saw that the Jedi usually take very young children into their fold, and RotS and the books with Han and Leia's kids suggest that active use of the force begins at a very young age, though it may not be totally consciously controlled.

How much training would a person need in order to use the Force? Can the training solely come from holocrons and the like, or is a mentor/instructor needed? What does training in the Force impact - strength in the Force, breadth of Force abilities, strength of Force abilities, access to particular abilities or disciplines...? Is lightsabre training necessarily a part of it, or is that just customary?

[SeaTrooper]

How does the Force manifest in a Force-sensitive person? In TPM we saw that the Jedi usually take very young children into their fold, and RotS and the books with Han and Leia's kids suggest that active use of the force begins at a very young age, though it may not be totally consciously controlled.

The best explaination I've seen (here, incidentally) is that midichlorians are ATTRACTED to individuals with Force sensitivity. The greater the sensitivity of that individual, the higher their count. That rather neatly explains Qui Gonn's interest in the young Anakin, and may be a standardised means of finding newborns the Jedi Order were interested in. Likewise, the Emperor would have needed a similar means to identify potential Dark Jedi, Hands, etc., at an age young enough to be manipulated.

However, please note that Luke did not insist on taking potential Jedi recruits before they could talk. That was a quintessentially Yoda idea, aimed at getting them young enough to indoctrinate in HIS perception of the Light-side. Note how Yoda initially refused to train Luke, declaring him too old in TESB. Yet, years later, Luke has little difficulty in training adults; with the exception of the occasional Jedi going off the rails. This strongly suggests that Force sensitivity manifests virtually from birth, otherwise the Jedi Order wouldn't be able to identify new recruits, but doesn't develop too far without the training and dedicated practice usually necessary to gain an skill.

How much training would a person need in order to use the Force? Can the training solely come from holocrons and the like, or is a mentor/instructor needed? What does training in the Force impact - strength in the Force, breadth of Force abilities, strength of Force abilities, access to particular abilities or disciplines...? Is lightsabre training necessarily a part of it, or is that just customary?

No idea, frankly. But I would suggest that lightsabre training was such a large part of the padawan's course load not for purely defensive reasons, but as a form of athletic/gymnastic preparation. If you're swinging a metre-long bar of restrained-plasma, that would instantly lop off any limb that got in the way, you had better bloody well gain a sense of kinesthesia real damned fast. When advancing onto the higher forms, accelerating the speed that you run through the katas and then practise-duel with your mates, having an unconscious sense of where your own body-parts are in relation to the blade you're swinging around could be rather important.

[Talhe]

How does the Force manifest in a Force-sensitive person? In TPM we saw that the Jedi usually take very young children into their fold, and RotS and the books with Han and Leia's kids suggest that active use of the force begins at a very young age, though it may not be totally consciously controlled.

If I had to wager a guess, it's a combination of power and surroundings. Luke and Anakin had enhanced reflexes/foresight while living in backwaters without any Force-users to teach them, wheres Jacen and Jaina were raised with them.

How much training would a person need in order to use the Force? Can the training solely come from holocrons and the like, or is a mentor/instructor needed? What does training in the Force impact - strength in the Force, breadth of Force abilities, strength of Force abilities, access to particular abilities or disciplines...? Is lightsabre training necessarily a part of it, or is that just customary?

Again, I think it depends on the surroundings and the individual. Luke and Anakin both required training to utilize their powers despite being among the strongest Force-users of all time, and Leia isn't close to her brothers power, despite being his twin, due to lack of training and focus. On the other hand, you get people like Kar Vastor, who, without Jedi training, was able to beat Mace Windu to a bloody pulp.

For specific abilities, some Jedi have natural affinities; the Horn family isn't telekinetic but get energy manipulation and illusions, Alema Rar with stealth, Oppo Rancisis with Battle Meditation. Again, it probably depends on the individual.

Lightsaber training seems to be part of the standard Jedi/Sith curriculum, although other schools of Force-users (Jensaari,Zeison Sha) also have weapons training. If nothing else,

[xt828]

Do you think that someone who was isolated from the Jedi orders would be more prone to falling to the Dark Side than otherwise? I get the impression from Luke in particular that it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to become powerful in the Light Side, while the Dark Side is always referred to as being a shortcut to power. I suppose that would be more likely if the person was aware of their Force abilities in some fashion, though.

[Adam Reynolds]

Do you think that someone who was isolated from the Jedi orders would be more prone to falling to the Dark Side than otherwise? I get the impression from Luke in particular that it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to become powerful in the Light Side, while the Dark Side is always referred to as being a shortcut to power. I suppose that would be more likely if the person was aware of their Force abilities in some fashion, though.

It seems that in general someone isolated from the Jedi( or other prominent Force users) would simply lack force powers altogether. Anakin was among the most powerful of all Force users and he merely had slightly faster reaction times. Luke's powers didn't seem to manifest themselves at all. As you said, awareness of one's Force sensitivity was extremely important in terms of being able to tap into it.

[xt828]

So if someone is not aware that they have Force powers, the most they'd get would be relatively minor unconscious enhancements to things like reflexes. I got the impression that Luke, like his father, had his ability manifest itself through improving his piloting skills, though in a totally unconscious fashion.

What about if they are aware that they have powers but have never had any sort of training or mentoring? Could they be constrained by what they believe is possible - as with Luke on Dagobah saying that the X-Wing was too big to lift, could this be a sort of mental block to their abilities?

[Talhe]

What about if they are aware that they have powers but have never had any sort of training or mentoring? Could they be constrained by what they believe is possible - as with Luke on Dagobah saying that the X-Wing was too big to lift, could this be a sort of mental block to their abilities?

Partially ingrained limits, and the individual and surroundings. You've got Nomi Sunrider, who didn't use her abilities or train until after her husband died (and became a kick-ass Jedi later), and you've got Kar Vastor, who barely got any training and was more powerful then Mace Windu.

[Shannon]

So if someone is not aware that they have Force powers, the most they'd get would be relatively minor unconscious enhancements to things like reflexes. I got the impression that Luke, like his father, had his ability manifest itself through improving his piloting skills, though in a totally unconscious fashion.

I recall reading somewhere (sorry I can't back this up with a source) that Luke, as a child, manifested the ability to find a missing tool. Uncle Owen didn't believe that Luke could've known where the tool was if he hadn't hidden it himself and punished him for it. This was a disincentive for Luke to use his power openly. Flying was another matter, of course - he could become a fantastic pilot without anyone (including himself) thinking that this was in any way 'supernatural'.

What about if they are aware that they have powers but have never had any sort of training or mentoring? Could they be constrained by what they believe is possible - as with Luke on Dagobah saying that the X-Wing was too big to lift, could this be a sort of mental block to their abilities?

The example of Kar Vastor from earlier in the discussion comes to mind. From memory, Vastor became lost in the jungle on Haruun Kal at a very young age. He already knew about the power of pelekotan (the Force) because the Korunnai were already attuned to it in their particular way. While not as disciplined or skilled as the Jedi (as Mace Windu showed), the Korunnai had a strong primal Force sensitivity. Vastor, who was immersed in pelekotan in order to survive (he lost the ability to speak unless through Force telepathy) became immensely powerful in a physical sense but lacked many of Mace's more refined abilities - I don't recall him ever using TK beyond what was required to boost his physical power, for example. His abilites with regard to the jungle and its inhabitants were impressive because that was what he knew, it was his environment.


In a general sense, with regard to the Jedi, they are trying to imbue a disciplined approach to using the Force for the common good. We see younglings in the Temple practicing with lightsabres while wearing blinding helmets - I'd expect this to develop mental awareness, focus and discipline along with the kind of physical awareness mentioned earlier. Advanced training seems to be more part of the padawan/Master relationship - developing the skills learned in basic training in a practical sense.

In terms of mindset, Anakin said that compassion was also encouraged, but this seems to be an arm's length kind of compassion (no attachments). Luke places much more emphasis on compassion and as noted has little trouble developing strength and skill in adult students, which lends weight to the theory that what the Order really wanted was thoroughly indoctrinated students. It's ironic that Yoda was reluctant to train Luke given that he knew perfectly well that these (emotional adult) were the conditions under which Luke or Leia would be trained.

As far as I know, the Sith emphasis on emotion is due to the ease with which intense emotion leads to the Dark Side and the raw power that goes with it. That doesn't mean that it's always easy - even Darth Bane had trouble with that approach as an apprentice. They still needed disicpline and focus, but they tapped into the power more easily because it's just easier to let your emotions run loose than it is to control them.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The best explaination I've seen (here, incidentally) is that midichlorians are ATTRACTED to individuals with Force sensitivity. The greater the sensitivity of that individual, the higher their count. That rather neatly explains Qui Gonn's interest in the young Anakin, and may be a standardised means of finding newborns the Jedi Order were interested in. Likewise, the Emperor would have needed a similar means to identify potential Dark Jedi, Hands, etc., at an age young enough to be manipulated.

Are you talking about my benign parasite hypothesis wherein the Midichlorians feed off of ambient Force energies?

That was a quintessentially Yoda idea, aimed at getting them young enough to indoctrinate in HIS perception of the Light-side.

No, according to the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, that idea originated Council hardliners that argued for more central authority after what happened to Exar Kun and Ulic Kel-Droma, where the majority of their Jedi-Sith converts became Jedi later in life.

But I would suggest that lightsabre training was such a large part of the padawan's course load not for purely defensive reasons, but as a form of athletic/gymnastic preparation. If you're swinging a metre-long bar of restrained-plasma, that would instantly lop off any limb that got in the way, you had better bloody well gain a sense of kinesthesia real damned fast. When advancing onto the higher forms, accelerating the speed that you run through the katas and then practise-duel with your mates, having an unconscious sense of where your own body-parts are in relation to the blade you're swinging around could be rather important.

Actually, a Jedi can use any weapon they want or none at all, so long as they can prove they can defend themselves sufficiently in their Knighting Trials. Jedi Master Fay as an example didn't carry weapons, choosing instead to hurl whatever debris was at hand with telekinesis.

[Guardsman Bass]

More powerfully gifted Force-users seem to show more "raw" capabilities, although (with the exception of Kar Vastor) it still seems to be mostly stuff like "better reflexes/piloting talent". Luke and Anakin both had supernatural reflexes, untrained Kyp Durron had something like that (he piloted a shuttle, untrained, into the heart of the Maw), and so forth.

That's not so much the case with less talented Force-users. Corran Horn comes to mind - he seemed totally unaware of and lacking in any Force talent and/or supernatural reflexes until he received training on Yavin 4.

[xt828]

Didn't Corran have limited precognition, though? His 'gut feeling' about whatever that would always be right?

I guess there's a sort of divide between passive and active powers, with the latter only being possible with some sort of training. IIRC the KOTORs had trained passive powers too - Battle Meditation and the like - and Zahn's theory of Palpatine enhancing Imperial forces.

[Havok]

How does the Force manifest in a Force-sensitive person? In TPM we saw that the Jedi usually take very young children into their fold, and RotS and the books with Han and Leia's kids suggest that active use of the force begins at a very young age, though it may not be totally consciously controlled.

Just look at the movies and they tell you everything you need to know.

The Force manifests itself in the things that you do.

Anakin, has 'gifts' at age 9-10 that are easily recognizable such as his ability to pilot the podracers, which is directly connected to his ability to sense the immediate future, how the Force allows him to expand his physical abilities i.e. reflexes, since no human, let alone someone that should have the coordination of an untrained child can do. He possibly also uses the Force to somehow boost his mechanical skill.

Luke shows the same abilities, but displays them in a more 'normal' capacity (something other humans can actually do and excel at) in his own piloting skills. Clearly though Luke, has no extraordinary skills even though he is almost 10 years older, despite the fact that he may be more 'powerful' in the Force than his father.

Neither show anything like 'supernatural reflexes' outside of the skills that they are specifically taught once they become Jedi.

Even though Luke and Anakin are at the very extreme of power in the Force on the top side, it is very easy to surmise that if they don't just naturally develop abilities without training, then the run of the mill Force sensitive certainly will not.

How much training would a person need in order to use the Force? Can the training solely come from holocrons and the like, or is a mentor/instructor needed? What does training in the Force impact - strength in the Force, breadth of Force abilities, strength of Force abilities, access to particular abilities or disciplines...? Is lightsabre training necessarily a part of it, or is that just customary?

How much training? If you are talking about becoming a Jedi, decades. If you are talking about using the Force for parlor tricks, weeks, months, years. I think it would depend on your strength 'in' the Force.

Just like a classroom, everyone is different. There are Force users that need hands on instruction and those that only need verbal instruction.

Lightsaber training is never explained in the movies directly, but it looks like as far as the Jedi go, it is a defensive weapon that fits with their stance of non aggression and defense. They have worked it into their own personal dogma, but it is not a necessity to understand and use the Force.

[Havok]

The best explaination I've seen (here, incidentally) is that midichlorians are ATTRACTED to individuals with Force sensitivity. The greater the sensitivity of that individual, the higher their count.

Wait, what? That is fucking stupid. How are midichlorians attracted? Do they catch the bus to the nursery? How do they sense that someone is Force sensitive when it is their presence that makes an individual Force sensitive?

That is fucking stupid. Who here came up with that BS?

Are you talking about my benign parasite hypothesis wherein the Midichlorians feed off of ambient Force energies?

Ah.

That was a quintessentially Yoda idea, aimed at getting them young enough to indoctrinate in HIS perception of the Light-side.

Uh, yeah. Because Yoda invented the Jedi and all the rules that they live by.

[Cykeisme]

Yes, midi-chlorians catch the bus to the nursery, Havok. That's obviously it. You've hit the nail right on the head.


Anyway, back to the point. A better way to state it would be that midi-chlorians form in individuals who have a high strength in the Force. Whatever the Force really is, it's simply more concentrated in some people. The midi-chlorians that form in them are purportedly what makes them sensitive to the Force, and able to connect with it, and manipulate it.

Yoda didn't come up with all the tenets of the Jedi Order, but the fact that he's been the highest ranking, most-respected member of the Order for the past nine hundred years does mean that he's had some influence on it, as of the prequel trilogy era.
A lot of people lambasted the fact that Yoda's customs only approve of only inducting very young beings, but I disagree. Canonically (all the comics and books aside), adhering to that custom only led to the loss of twenty fully-Knighted Jedi during his tenure as senior master of the Jedi Order, and only one of these became a Sith Lord (Tyranus).
There was Anakin, of course, the twenty-first.. but he was taken in much older than the customary age. Due to being nine, he had already experienced enough bad things that stuck with him into his later life.

How much training would a person need in order to use the Force? Can the training solely come from holocrons and the like, or is a mentor/instructor needed? What does training in the Force impact - strength in the Force, breadth of Force abilities, strength of Force abilities, access to particular abilities or disciplines...? Is lightsabre training necessarily a part of it, or is that just customary?

Some books - including RPG material, probably much lower on the canon scale, but they don't contradict higher canon - state that without training to awaken their potential and learn to actually use the Force actively, individuals who are strong in the Force simply seem "luckier" than ordinary people. They passively receive premonitions both long-term and short, or I assume perhaps sometimes even perform minor near-undetectable telekinetic manipulation, but the effects are so minor that it's dismissed as good fortune.
Apparently it was the short-term precognition that became most apparent for Anakin and Luke during their early years, manifesting as reflexes that made them great pilots.

I like the way SeaTrooper outlined the tradition of training Jedi to use a lightsaber. It serves the dual purpose of focusing their minds and bodies as a form of meditation aid, while they practice, and also allows them to defend themselves in their role as "guardians of peace and justice in the Republic", as the Jedi Order pledged itself to be.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Anyway, back to the point. A better way to state it would be that midi-chlorians form in individuals who have a high strength in the Force. Whatever the Force really is, it's simply more concentrated in some people. The midi-chlorians that form in them are purportedly what makes them sensitive to the Force, and able to connect with it, and manipulate it.

Then you'd have to explain Silicon-based life like the Shard using the Force.

As you can see the similarities to their anatomy and our own are nil.

Canonically (all the comics and books aside), adhering to that custom only led to the loss of twenty fully-Knighted Jedi during his tenure as senior master of the Jedi Order, and only one of these became a Sith Lord (Tyranus).

The Lost Twenty are notable because they're Jedi Masters that left, not Knights. Additionally, Dooku was the second Jedi Master-Sith Lord convert, after Jedi Master Phanius left and took up the name Darth Ruin (Read: Lame).

[SeaTrooper]

The best explaination I've seen (here, incidentally) is that midichlorians are ATTRACTED to individuals with Force sensitivity. The greater the sensitivity of that individual, the higher their count. That rather neatly explains Qui Gonn's interest in the young Anakin, and may be a standardised means of finding newborns the Jedi Order were interested in. Likewise, the Emperor would have needed a similar means to identify potential Dark Jedi, Hands, etc., at an age young enough to be manipulated.

Are you talking about my benign parasite hypothesis wherein the Midichlorians feed off of ambient Force energies?

Very possibly, unfortunately I haven't seen your hypothesis. It does sound reasonable, far moreso than the BS that midichlorians CAUSE Force sensitivity.

That was a quintessentially Yoda idea, aimed at getting them young enough to indoctrinate in HIS perception of the Light-side.

No, according to the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, that idea originated Council hardliners that argued for more central authority after what happened to Exar Kun and Ulic Kel-Droma, where the majority of their Jedi-Sith converts became Jedi later in life.

But I would suggest that lightsabre training was such a large part of the padawan's course load not for purely defensive reasons, but as a form of athletic/gymnastic preparation. If you're swinging a metre-long bar of restrained-plasma, that would instantly lop off any limb that got in the way, you had better bloody well gain a sense of kinesthesia real damned fast. When advancing onto the higher forms, accelerating the speed that you run through the katas and then practise-duel with your mates, having an unconscious sense of where your own body-parts are in relation to the blade you're swinging around could be rather important.

Actually, a Jedi can use any weapon they want or none at all, so long as they can prove they can defend themselves sufficiently in their Knighting Trials. Jedi Master Fay as an example didn't carry weapons, choosing instead to hurl whatever debris was at hand with telekinesis.[/quote]

Ah, my point here is not their learning to use any specific weapon, but in gaining the sense of self they'd need later. The kids could have been swinging lengths of rope or playing with yo-yo's, and still gained the same generic value. What they needed was to KNOW where their limbs were, their centre of balance from second to second, what and how to move next in order to gain a specific configuration or make/stop a strike. Basically, kinesthesia; or, rather, my understanding of what this means. (Short pause while I do a definition search...)

kin·es·the·sia/ˌkinəsˈTHēZHə/
Noun: Awareness of the position and movement of the parts of the body by means of sensory organs (proprioceptors) in the muscles and joints.

Think ... Doc Savage, without the BS sensory training.

[SeaTrooper]

The best explaination I've seen (here, incidentally) is that midichlorians are ATTRACTED to individuals with Force sensitivity. The greater the sensitivity of that individual, the higher their count.

Wait, what? That is fucking stupid. How are midichlorians attracted? Do they catch the bus to the nursery? How do they sense that someone is Force sensitive when it is their presence that makes an individual Force sensitive?

That is fucking stupid. Who here came up with that BS?

Are you talking about my benign parasite hypothesis wherein the Midichlorians feed off of ambient Force energies?

Ah.

That was a quintessentially Yoda idea, aimed at getting them young enough to indoctrinate in HIS perception of the Light-side.

Uh, yeah. Because Yoda invented the Jedi and all the rules that they live by.

No, but the little green bugger is said to be, what? 800-plus years old? A Master for much of that, a very long term permanent member of the Council AND we see him directly training the little kiddies. You think Yoda did not have exceptional influence over that amount of time?

What I'm saying is that Yoda had the means, motive and opportunity to instill his own particular sense of how the Jedi Order should operate, and how their existing rules should be interpreted. The 'no attachments' rule, in particular.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Very possibly, unfortunately I haven't seen your hypothesis. It does sound reasonable, far moreso than the BS that midichlorians CAUSE Force sensitivity.

The idea is that midichlorians are a benign parasite that feed off of ambient Force energies, waste energy so to speak, of carbon-based Force sensitives who call upon the Force. Either knowingly or not. Someone with a more powerful connection gives off more wasted energy and thus can sustain more midichlorians. Thus the more midichlorians act as an indicator and nothing more. This would also explain why a simple blood transfusion wouldn't give everyone Force powers.

[SeaTrooper]

Very possibly, unfortunately I haven't seen your hypothesis. It does sound reasonable, far moreso than the BS that midichlorians CAUSE Force sensitivity.

The idea is that midichlorians are a benign parasite that feed off of ambient Force energies, waste energy so to speak, of carbon-based Force sensitives who call upon the Force. Either knowingly or not. Someone with a more powerful connection gives off more wasted energy and thus can sustain more midichlorians. Thus the more midichlorians act as an indicator and nothing more. This would also explain why a simple blood transfusion wouldn't give everyone Force powers.

Ah, sounds reasonable. We'd need to find a non-carbon based Force user and show that they have an equivalent.

My thought had been that they were similar to T-cell counts for HIV victims or white blood cell counts for anyone suffering an infection. I certainly remember being horrified when Qui-Gonn first raised their very existence. These indicators are also non-transferrable, being directly linked to the victim's condition, and driven by the body's response to an invasion. Where that falls apart, however, is in treating Force sensitivity as a disease that requires some form of response by the body's micro-ecology. Your idea would be far more workable, if Force sensitivity could be shown to feed these micro-organisms somehow.

[Star Wars 888]

There have been instances of characters using the Force sub-consciously without training, but not in a controlled manner. Training allows them to embrace this Force potential.

[Broken]

No, but the little green bugger is said to be, what? 800-plus years old? A Master for much of that, a very long term permanent member of the Council AND we see him directly training the little kiddies. You think Yoda did not have exceptional influence over that amount of time?

What I'm saying is that Yoda had the means, motive and opportunity to instill his own particular sense of how the Jedi Order should operate, and how their existing rules should be interpreted. The 'no attachments' rule, in particular.

If I have my timelines correct, Yoda himself would have been trained around a century after the Jedi thought the Sith Order destroyed. Given the lifespan of many alien species and how the Force may allow for an expanded lifespan (iirc if that is actually in the EU or from a PnP Stars Wars rpg I was in) it is quite likely that Yoda was influenced/partially trained by Jedi who actually fought the Sith. As the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes clear when Yoda was fighting Sidious in the Senate that Yoda was a devastatingly powerful Jedi, but he was trained to fight the last war as if the Sith were the same as 1000 years ago. But as the creation of Anakin Skywalker makes clear, the Banite Sith Order was anything but the same as the previous Sith, but had indeed moved far beyond what they once were.

Now, had the Banite Sith not been so markedly different, the Republic may well have survived and seen to the defeat of the Sith again, but Yoda and the entire Jedi Order were outdated. Their training and doctrine were for an enemy that no longer existed. And Yoda was a powerful influence among the Jedi I have no doubt. That does not invalidate all the training and methods of the Jedi seeing as they kept the peace for 1000 years, so they must have been doing something right. Compare that to the galactic crisis of the week that Luke's New Jedi Order routinely botches in order to keep the War in Star Wars. Yoda was a product of his past and it took the destruction of the Republic and the fall of the Jedi Order to make him see that and move beyond it.

[Knife]

If you look at both TESB and ROTS, where in TESB Yoda describes the Force as 'binding the Galaxy together' and in ROTS novelization if describes Obi Wan becoming the ship, becoming Greivious, becoming the walls and floor, and thus knowing what they were going to do as soon as they did; it becomes clear that the underlying 'power' of the Force is binding and becoming one with the galaxy, or more importantly, immediate objects and people.

It would seem that in untrained people, Anakin and Luke, this ability can manifest in them sensing or unconsciously tap into that in limited ways so that it seems they feel or sense what's going to happen and react to it. Training apparently can enhance this effect to the point where the Jedi/Sith can feel/know what his opponent is about to do.

Even finer control, like acting upon an object through the Force seems to take even more training.

[SeaTrooper]

As the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes clear when Yoda was fighting Sidious in the Senate that Yoda was a devastatingly powerful Jedi, but he was trained to fight the last war as if the Sith were the same as 1000 years ago. But as the creation of Anakin Skywalker makes clear, the Banite Sith Order was anything but the same as the previous Sith, but had indeed moved far beyond what they once were.

Now, had the Banite Sith not been so markedly different, the Republic may well have survived and seen to the defeat of the Sith again, but Yoda and the entire Jedi Order were outdated. Their training and doctrine were for an enemy that no longer existed. And Yoda was a powerful influence among the Jedi I have no doubt. That does not invalidate all the training and methods of the Jedi seeing as they kept the peace for 1000 years, so they must have been doing something right. Compare that to the galactic crisis of the week that Luke's New Jedi Order routinely botches in order to keep the War in Star Wars. Yoda was a product of his past and it took the destruction of the Republic and the fall of the Jedi Order to make him see that and move beyond it.

Man, I have GOTTA get my hands on a copy of that novelisation! You've just blown my argument out of the damned water, and I wouldn't have advanced it had I known better.

[Knife]

There came a turning point in the clash of light against the dark.

It did not come from the flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

Just-

didn't-

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

the Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. how could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...

The Shroud of the Darkside was prohibiting the Jedi from see too far into the future and too far into what was happening. Diminishing their ability to use the Force, not in jumps and kicks, but seeing the 'whole picture' and changing to adapt to it. They couldn't divine the truth, that they were old and outdated.

It is interesting to note, that it's not even really Yoda's fault, in that he lost before he was born, and that was 900 years earlier. The Jedi lost about 100 years after they thought they destroyed the Sith. That could imply that they stagnated when they perceived that they didn't have an enemy left, while the Sith turned from a Jedi wannabe group to it's own real group of Force users dedicated to destroying the Jedi.

[Solauren]

My view on it;

Midichlorians are a side-effect of the Force in organic (read Carbon) based lifeforms. This is probably why when the Jedi order encountered non-Carbon-based lifeforms that could use the Force (i.e the Shard), they freaked out about it, and said ‘Nope, sorry, something’s up here, not happening”

The exact nature of this relationship is unknown. It could be the Midichlorians simply find living in someone with Force Sensitivity more ‘comfortable’, they might need that environment to thrive, they might somehow ‘use’ the ambient/left over Force energy from the host. Whatever the case, they are a useful tool for measuring potential with the Force.


As for the original question;
The Force, without training, usually manifests in a person in simply ways; i.e Knowing what’s going to happen right before it happens.
Examples include untrained Force Sensitives amazing piloting abilities (Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Leia (Skywalker) Organa, Kyp Durran), or an individual knowing when and where something is about to happen. (i.e the female Mon Calamari from the Jedi Academy trilogy knowing what fish was about to be eaten, or knowing which X-wing was about to be vaped by a random shot from a Tie Fighter).
Apparently some Clairvoyance/Clairaudience from Luke and Leia as kids (qv Children of the Jedi) also has occured. According to Callista (qv Children of the Jedi) the above examples are the most common occurances.

With a little guidance, or possibly a little practice and knowing it’s possible, we’ve seen manifestations of Telekinesis from untrained Force Sensitives (i.e Jaina and Jacen Solo in the Jedi Academy trilogy), Kyp Durran being able to manifest limited Telekinesis, and even managing to detect Gravity wells to avoid them (qv Jedi Academy trilogy, when he flew a Shuttle into a Black Hole cluster).

As for the training aspect:
I suspect the Holocron vs Instructor debate would largely get down to the individual. Kyle Katarn was able to pick up a lot of Force abilities (to the point of defeating a Dark Jedi Master) and Lightsaber combat with minimal guidance and training before some scrolls and maybe a hologram recording.

The Jedi and Sith also appeared to think a Holocron was enough to get you started. The Jedi were very, very, very careful about Collecting Holocrons to make sure they didn’t fall ‘into the wrong hands’. The Sith on the other hand, liked to leave holocrons out where potiental recruits could find them.

As for What Training gives
It’s like anything else; Practice makes perfect.
i.e I haven’t read or spoken French or Latin in years. I’m probably so rusty, I might as well never have learned them.
For contrast, I use Microsoft Office + Visual Basic for Applications a lot, and learn new stuff with them very quickly.

As for the Lightsaber
Originally, the Jedi didn’t use Lightsabers. They used whatever Melee weapon (and gun) they favored. Lightsabers were a ‘seige weapon’ that required a power pack and cord. It was when lightsabers became able to run on a smaller battery, the Jedi switched over to them.

The Lightsaber / Weapon appears to be as much a meditation point as it does a weapon. Probably similar to learning and performing martial arts Kata.