The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

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The Romulan Republic
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The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, season three is here, and I'm posting this discussion thread, since we had one for each of the previous seasons.

So, comments on the first episode:
Spoiler
-It bothers me that no one in the franchise rarely if ever really addresses the moral implications of cloning troops. At least Shak-ti shot down the Kaminoan approach of simply treating the defective clones as disposable objects. The condescending and contemptuous treatment of the old defective clone by his fellows was quite offensive, however. But then, that was surely part of the point.

-Seeing the clone training exercise was interesting. The clones in the second exercise kicked ass. That was some... impressive marksmanship.

-The blue-headed bounty hunter was a surprisingly nice guy for a bounty hunter. :)

-A little bit predictable, though.
Second one showing now.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Hmm, would it be so hard for them to show these episodes in canonical order? This was apparently a sequel to a season one episode. Jesus.

On the plus side, kick ass space battle.:)
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Srelex »

What was the scale like? Dozens of ships, or hard to tell?
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I would say definitely over a dozen Republic ships. Harder to tell on the sepperatist side, but I think there were multiple Lucrehulks.

Anyway:
Spoiler
-Grevious kicked a lot more ass than usual, as did Ventress.
-In the spirit of villains actually being effective and not embarassing, no dumb droid "humor."
-99's death was so predictable.
-Anakin goes a little closer to the Dark Side, telling Ventress he will let the Clones execute her on the spot.
-The clones used the children in battle. One more war crime for the Republic.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Srelex »

In the trailer, we saw clones fire at this giant droid squid thing with a rocket launcher; was that in there?
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yes.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Well, looks like no one cared about 'the Kaminoans make faulty clones disappear' thing Karen had going. The Travissty fans have direct refutation that the Jedi and thus the Republic don't let it happen if it's within their power to stop it.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

This show has repeatedly knocked Travis's take on canon into rubble.

I wonder if anyone else noted the emphasis on the scale of combat going on. Its not exactly anti-Travis explicitly, but they took a nice couple jabs at minimalism in this episode. First, Spoiler
Shak-ti comments that the enemy fleet in what's probably the biggest fleet battle in the show thus far seemed too small, and then someone mentions (might have been Shak-ti again) that there were too few droids to capture the place.

Also, this episode really showed off Grevious (presuming it was he and not Dooku or whatever who planned the attack) and Kenobi's tactical skills. The attack involved two sepperate ruses- the space battle being a decoy for the ground assault, and the ground assault being a diversion for Ventress. And Kenobi seemed to see through both deceptions. In some sense the entire episode was a battle between Kenobi and Grevious
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by TC Pilot »

Srelex wrote:What was the scale like? Dozens of ships, or hard to tell?
In the establishing shot, there's at least a dozen Venators lined up in two rows, with two of those corvettes from the previous season a bit ahead of the front Venator line. Later shots also have some Acclamators in view.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Srelex »

Having seen them, I can say that they were quite cool. Was that ship Grievous was on the Invisible Hand?
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Thanas »

The Romulan Republic wrote:-The clones used the children in battle. One more war crime for the Republic.
Are you kidding me?



In any case, good episode (the latter, the first one wasn't that good), but I really, really think the aiming skills need to be improved. Heck, we saw clones and droids miss from a few meters.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Thanas wrote: Are you kidding me?
Not in the slightest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_soldiers

From the article linked to above:
The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, Article 38, (1989) proclaimed: "State parties shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons who have not attained the age of 15 years do not take a direct part in hostilities."
Under Article 8.2.26 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), adopted in July 1998 and entered into force 1 July 2002; "Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities" is a war crime.
Thanas wrote:In any case, good episode (the latter, the first one wasn't that good), but I really, really think the aiming skills need to be improved. Heck, we saw clones and droids miss from a few meters.
Yeah, and we also saw clones pick droids off towers dozens of meters away during the training exercises. As for the droids, while I'll grant that their marksmanship may leave something to be desired, at least they weren't doing comedy.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Thanas »

The same clones that were also fighting in the sniping positions and sucked at it. Really, the capabilites seem to vary according to the "not enough bolts on screen yet" level.


************
Also, with regard to child soldiers - I see that you weren't kidding and are actually that stupid. Riddle me this - what would you have the cadets do? Also, children does not apply here, as these are obviously not normal humans.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Thanas wrote:The same clones that were also fighting in the sniping positions and sucked at it. Really, the capabilites seem to vary according to the "not enough bolts on screen yet" level.
Actually, I thought the Clones were consistently good in the training exercises. Maybe the sucked more on the actual battlefield, but that's probably to be expected.
Thanas wrote:Also, with regard to child soldiers - I see that you weren't kidding and are actually that stupid. Riddle me this - what would you have the cadets do? Also, children does not apply here, as these are obviously not normal humans.
I wonder, if this is going to become a lengthy debate, if it might not be better suited to its own thread rather than highjacking this one?

In any case, allow me to explain:

I would put the cadets, who are clearly undertrained, physically weaker than adult clones, and under-equipped for combat somewhere as far away from the fighting as possible. I would arm them, but with strict orders not to expose themselves or open fire except as a last resort in self-defense.

However, its a moot point. They should never have been in a position where they should have to defend themselves, because the Republic shouldn't have been cloning soldiers to begin with. I would argue that the very act of cloning children for the purpose of turning them into soldiers violates the Rome Statute, as previously quoted.

And no, the clones are not normal humans. However, they are still children, and are still less experienced, less physically capable, and probably less psychologically/emotionally mature than adult clones.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Thanas »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I would put the cadets, who are clearly undertrained, physically weaker than adult clones, and under-equipped for combat somewhere as far away from the fighting as possible. I would arm them, but with strict orders not to expose themselves or open fire except as a last resort in self-defense.
Hey, what a coincidence - that is exactly what the Republic did. The cadets mention they got cut off on their way to the barracks. And the Republic did not even arm them outright.
I would argue that the very act of cloning children for the purpose of turning them into soldiers violates the Rome Statute, as previously quoted.
Obviously not by the standards of that universe.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Thanas wrote: Hey, what a coincidence - that is exactly what the Republic did. The cadets mention they got cut off on their way to the barracks. And the Republic did not even arm them outright.
I will give the Republic credit for appearing to initially try to keep them out of the fighting. Later, however, they used the children to set up an ambush and fire on the droids from above. Granted, these were a few clones acting on their own initiative.

The really damning thing, however, is that they were cloning soldiers at all.
Obviously not by the standards of that universe.
Obviously. However, you surely cannot deny that by real-world standards and definitions of war crimes, the Republic is guilty of war crimes.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Thanas »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote: Hey, what a coincidence - that is exactly what the Republic did. The cadets mention they got cut off on their way to the barracks. And the Republic did not even arm them outright.
I will give the Republic credit for appearing to initially try to keep them out of the fighting. Later, however, they used the children to set up an ambush and fire on the droids from above. Granted, these were a few clones acting on their own initiative.
They were also protecting them from getting slaughtered by the droids, who had orders to kill all.
Obviously. However, you surely cannot deny that by real-world standards and definitions of war crimes, the Republic is guilty of war crimes.
Which ones? Aside from cloning soldiers.

Really, this is a bit like some revanchist bringing up the point that the soviets also broke the rules of law when they shot captured Germans.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Vympel »

I really dug the combined Episode 2/ Episode 3 ARC trooper armor.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Seele »

Apparently, Cartoon Netwook at the censor a bit from the 2nd episode when Ventress killed the Trooper.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Vympel »

That did look pretty wrong when I saw it. I knew there was some sort of censorship going on there. Oh well, they'll reintegrate it for the Blu-Ray.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Darth Hoth »

Thanas wrote:Which ones? Aside from cloning soldiers.

Really, this is a bit like some revanchist bringing up the point that the soviets also broke the rules of law when they shot captured Germans.
Or the mass rapes. Yes, sir, it is totally awful and dishonest to point out Soviet war crimes and "crimes against humanity" in addition to the German ones. :wtf:

As for the Republic, the Jedi are known to have used child soldiers on multiple occasions (both before and during the Clone Wars). As in, pre-teens sent into battle in some cases.

The Republic's forces have also committed genocide on the Sith species, as per the Tales of the Jedi comics, and destroyed the homeworlds of the Ubese in an unprovoked "pre-emptive strike" (as events are described in the Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook, at least), killing the majority of their population. Both of these events were rather far back in the past by prequel times, of course.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Thanas »

Darth Hoth wrote:
Thanas wrote:Which ones? Aside from cloning soldiers.

Really, this is a bit like some revanchist bringing up the point that the soviets also broke the rules of law when they shot captured Germans.
Or the mass rapes. Yes, sir, it is totally awful and dishonest to point out Soviet war crimes and "crimes against humanity" in addition to the German ones. :wtf:
Quit trolling and use your brain to read the word revanchist in my post.


Also, don't you dare try and turn this thread into one of your stupid "The Jedi were actually worse than the empire" spiels, or I will simply link to the sound trashings you received on the subject in the past.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by Darth Hoth »

Thanas wrote:Quit trolling and use your brain to read the word revanchist in my post.
Why did you add that, then? What reason did you have to compare The Romulan Republic to "revanchists" (presumably German such)? Unlike me, he has not (to my knowledge) been anti-Jedi/pro-Empire in the past.
Also, don't you dare try and turn this thread into one of your stupid "The Jedi were actually worse than the empire" spiels, or I will simply link to the sound trashings you received on the subject in the past.
From what I recall, in those cases it was more a matter of volume than quality that drowned my arguments. Some were successfully nitpicked, but I never saw one that succeeded in actually defeating most of them.

But alas, I have no time for such huge debates now or in the foreseeable future, and I did not intend to start one, here. This was merely a matter of you asking a question and me answering to the best of my ability. Was that wrong of me to do so?

Regardless of how that affects its moral standing, it is a canonical fact that the Republic is guilty of genocide on an interstellar scale of a defeated near-human enemy race/species.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Revanchism: defined according to Wikipedia as: "a term used since the 1870s to describe a political manifestation of the will to reverse territorial losses incurred by a country, often following a war."

Which in the context you brought it up, would presumably refer to German nationalists and Nazi apologists trying to attack the Soviet Union. How this applies to me and my arguments I'm not quite sure. Never mind that, as Hoth noted, however evil the Nazis were the Soviets can quite rightly be condemned without any ulterior motives.

Now given it is Wikipedia, maybe that's not the correct definition of "revanchist" and the real one would make some sense of your post. But as it is, you're just posting insulting, irrelevant nonsense so far as I can see.

Hoth made two perfectly valid points. I have argued against his Imperial apologetics in the past, but that's not what he's saying here. He's not trolling, but you are I believe engaging in the use of straw men and generally making weak and irrelevant arguments. I am disappointed. Based on my past debates with you I honestly expected better.
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Re: The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Darth Hoth wrote: Why did you add that, then? What reason did you have to compare The Romulan Republic to "revanchists" (presumably German such)? Unlike me, he has not (to my knowledge) been anti-Jedi/pro-Empire in the past.
Let me qualify that: I would consider myself anti-Jedi (more the institution than its individual members, who were mostly well-intentioned but indoctrinated). However, I am also unapologetically anti-Empire, and while I have not spent a great deal of time arguing the issue here, on the rare occasions when I do enter a debate on the morality of the Empire, that is always the position I have taken.
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