Jim Raynor wrote:
What the hell? The prequels made it very clear that the Jedi are flawed. Qui-Gon, the main hero in TPM, is portrayed as a victim of the Jedi Council's conformity and politics. Anakin thrived under Qui-Gon's early guidance, and felt constrained by Obi-Wan's stricter and less trusting mentoring.
I am aware of the dialogue. But also note that it was Qui Gon who wanted Anakin Skywalker trained in the ways of the Force, which ultimately gave Palpatine one of the greatest assets he needed to bringing the galaxy under his control. I am not saying the Jedi Order was perfect by any stretch, and they had become complacent sure, but they are far from the arrogant and completely out of touch incompetent caricature they seem to have been transformed into by some.
The fact remains that the Jedi Council was not wrong when they initially decided against training Anakin Skywalker. The eventually agreed only out of sympathy for the recently deceased Qui Gon Jinn, a decision that did not sit well with Yoda even in the aftermath of Qui Gon's funeral.
Meanwhile, Anakin was under Qui Gon's guidance for how long exactly? Couldn't have been very long at all. To compare the scant time those two spent together compared to the many years spent together by Anakin and Obi Wan is not fair.
Yoda clearly states that many Jedi have grown "arrogant" during AOTC.
Yoda's commentary should not be taken so literally to the point that it can be reasonably interpreted that the Jedi "forgot the importance of compassion" as Formless stated. For 1,000 years the Jedi had kept the peace and had a astoundingly noteworthy reputation, a measure of arrogance is not entirely unexpected, but we still see plenty of depictions of Jedi selflessly protecting others.
In ROTS, his big answer to Anakin's fears about losing someone close to him was to just let go.
If Anakin had followed Yoda's advice, he would have been better off. Or if he had fully disclosed some very important details about his visions, then perhaps Yoda could have offered some better advice. It is easy for us to make judgments about Yoda's advice, but the fact that in the SW universe the dark side is a very tangible and corruptive force changes the way the matter should be percieved. Being 900 years old, Yoda has seen far more beings live and die than most others, and I am sure that his perspective might be different.
But he wasn't wrong at all. Anakin's fears were self fulfilling, by becoming consumed with his attachment to Padme he ended up fulfilling the visions he sought to prevent. Now I will not say that it was wrong for Padme and Anakin to get married, but Anakin allowed himself to be consumed by his greed and jealously. He was the one responsible for her death after all.
Anakin of course reacted very badly to everything that happened to him, but the other Jedi were flawed as well.
I never claimed the Jedi were perfect, but saying they are flawed isn't saying much. But in this situation it wasn't any kind of institutional flaw that caused Anakin to fall to the Dark Side.
It's not that the Jedi don't care about people. It's that they're extremely caught up in their old doctrines, and hold onto a philosophy of self-denial and detachment. They cared about the ideal of serving the Republic, but didn't offer much on a personal level.
Yes the JEdi were caught up in old doctrines and philosophies, I get that. But what does that really make them guilty of? As a result they were blindsided by the Dark Lord of the Sith, but can you or anyone tell me what actual harms were caused by the Jedi following their old traditions other than Anakin falling to the Dark Side (where Anakin bears responsbility that seems to get ignored)? It was a maverick Jedi who brought about the rise of Darth Vader, and another maverick Jedi who sought to avenge that Jedi's death that helped plunge the galaxy into Civil War.
Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong in ROTJ, when they told Luke to just kill Vader because he was beyond hope. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." That was disproven when Luke successfully redeemed Vader.
Agreed, you are correct, but you know what was awesome about that? The fact that it used to apparently be a big deal to redeem someone from the Dark Side, which was an amazing part of the story that got watered down when suddeny every Mary Sue and Gary Stu Jedi Knight were redeeming darksiders in the EU. I liked that Obi Wan and Yoda were wrong in that instance because it really made the moment more powerful. I liked that Yoda and Obi Wan were wrong because it was just so unlikely that Vader could be redeemed, but I think that's a different argument than the one we are on now.
One of the Star Wars saga's main themes is escaping the constraints of your parents. Obi-Wan is overly critical of Anakin and doesn't trust him. Anakin goes bad (because he can't control his rage, which is the other big theme of SW), but at the end of ROTS Obi-Wan also admits that "I have failed you." He goes off to Tatooine where he receives offscreen training from Qui-Gon's ghost, and presumably mellows out into the kinder, gentler Obi-Wan of ANH. Old Obi-Wan has much more success with Luke than he did with Anakin.
I am aware of the canon events that take place. But I disagree with your interpretation. I think Obi Wan eventually does trust Anakin more than you suspect. I think Obi Wan thinks he failed Anakin because, as a Jedi Council Member, he allowed Anakin to be put into a position (spying on Palpatine) that put him at an even greater risk than Obi Wan even realized. I think he feels that he failed Anakin not because of the way he instructed Anakin, but because he felt he delivered Anakin right into Palpatine's hands.
Uncle Owen wanted to keep Luke on the farm. When he dies, Luke leaves Tatooine and becomes a great hero. Vader (who's name comes from "vater," German for "father") was basically an abusive dad who kicked Luke's ass because his son didn't want to be just like him.
I greatly disagree with this simplistic interpretation.
As I said before, Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about whether Luke could redeem Vader.
As I said before I agree with you, but also as I said before, it used to be a really BFD that Vader could even be redeemed. Before the EU, we thought Luke was eventually going to be rebuilding the Jedi Order too.
Throughout the saga, heroes are shown succeeding or failing based on whether they can overcome their oppressive parent figures. The parental figures that are portrayed in a good light, such as Qui-Gon or Old Obi-Wan, are the ones who trust the young heroes and teach them in a way that equips them to handle life.
That is all well and good but I am seeing a lot of background but not a lot of specific evidence to where the Jedi Order has become so arrogant that compassion is no longer practiced, which was what I was more specifically responding to.