The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a war

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Star Wars 888
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The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a war

Post by Star Wars 888 »

If the Empire as of ROTJ invaded the Legacy of the Force galaxy and the latter united together, who would win?

Let's say that it takes the Imperial fleet 6 months to get there, so the galaxy has 6 months to prepare.

No superweapons.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Jake »

The empire would be krushed with a capital K. All of the new ships in the GA fleets were designed to defeat their older imperial counterparts. They control just as much territory as the empire did and the prior Yuuzhan Vong war forced the GA into a military buildup similar to that of the empire's. The force is also with the GA. The empire's two sith would be facing a new Jedi order leading the GA forces. By this time, Luke Skywalker in particular is easily more powerful than Palpatine (read his massive wookieepedia page). Honestly, the only way I can see the empire winning this is if Palpatine lays low and gets back to the good old fashioned scheming that brought down the old republic.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Jake wrote:The empire would be krushed with a capital K. All of the new ships in the GA fleets were designed to defeat their older imperial counterparts. They control just as much territory as the empire did and the prior Yuuzhan Vong war forced the GA into a military buildup similar to that of the empire's. The force is also with the GA. The empire's two sith would be facing a new Jedi order leading the GA forces. By this time, Luke Skywalker in particular is easily more powerful than Palpatine (read his massive wookieepedia page). Honestly, the only way I can see the empire winning this is if Palpatine lays low and gets back to the good old fashioned scheming that brought down the old republic.
The LOTF era galaxy would have huge advantages in technology and the Force, yet the Empire would have huge advantages in terms of numbers; 25,000 star destroyers (Empire) vs under 1000 (Galactic Alliance).

Basically, it would be a quality (LOTF era galaxy) vs quantity (Empire) contest.

Although the latter was stated to be far more powerful than the Vong.

Luke and the NJO could pull off an assassination of Sidious, which would grant the LOTF era galaxy a rather easy win given how the Empire fractured after Sidious's death.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Jake »

Where did you get the under 1000 figure?
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Jake wrote:Where did you get the under 1000 figure?
Hapes had 63 battle dragons, and was stated to be around 20% of the Galactic Alliance's navy. If we were to say that battle dragons were about equal to star destroyers, the Galactic Alliance would have a few hundred star destroyers.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Jake »

If you look here:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hapan_navy, the entire Hapan royal navy has hundreds of battle dragons. You were thinking of one individual fleet (the honor fleet) which happens to have 63. There are also other ships in the navy besides the battle dragons.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Jake wrote:If you look here:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hapan_navy, the entire Hapan royal navy has hundreds of battle dragons. You were thinking of one individual fleet (the honor fleet) which happens to have 63. There are also other ships in the navy besides the battle dragons.
Oh yeah, good point. Still though, the Empire would highly outnumber the LOTF era galaxy, yet the latter would have superior technology and Force users.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Jake »

And I think the part where the Hapan fleet was 20% of the GA fleet referred to one battlefleet, not the entire GA fleet (I could be remembering that wrong though).
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Jake wrote:And I think the part where the Hapan fleet was 20% of the GA fleet referred to one battlefleet, not the entire GA fleet (I could be remembering that wrong though).
Caedus stated that the withdrawal of Hapes removed 20% of the GA's fleet strength and was stating this in the context of the war, not a battle. Also, the Wookies apparently had a fleet making up 10% of the GA's fleet strength.

However, star destroyers seem to be superior to battle dragons in most cases.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Jake »

Could you give me the book title and page number? It just seems weird that the Hapans (and the wookies for that matter) would be such an integral part of the GA military.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Jake wrote:Could you give me the book title and page number? It just seems weird that the Hapans (and the wookies for that matter) would be such an integral part of the GA military.
LOTF: Fury in the opening part, like page 1 and page 2 regarding the 20% quote. I'm not sure about the 10% quote though.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Jake »

Ok, I found it, and it was 20% of the entire fleet like you said. However, it is 20% of the Galactic Alliance fleet. Since the OP says the galaxy is united, we also have to count the confederation fleet and the imperial remnant fleet as well.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

The Galactic Empire would still have the numerical advantage, although I agree that the LOTF Era Galaxy would probably win.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Darth Hoth »

Can someone please quantify the "technological advancement" we hear so much about? Has power generation increased by orders of magnitude? Or do improved construction techniques allow for greater hulls for regular ships? Perhaps shields have had their dissipation rates improved?

Because thus far, no one has basically said anything of substance.

From what I recall . . . The Ralroost was somewhat more powerful than a Victory-class. But not orders of magnitudes more powerful. Twenty years of tech progress in a mostly stagnant society does not imply victory.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Patroklos »

Its not just the fleets. The Galactic Civil War laid waste to and then divided the economy, and then the YV raised to the ground a sizable percentage of what was left. And not just your mundane Outer Rim worlds either, but the bread and butter money makers of the Core. There is no possibility that the economic and demographic strenght the Legacy era could draw from was anything remotely close to that of the Empire. I'd imagine it would be similar to comparing 1939 and 1946 Germany. Better tech, but orders of magnitude less powerful none the less.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Jake »

Can someone please quantify the "technological advancement" we hear so much about? Has power generation increased by orders of magnitude? Or do improved construction techniques allow for greater hulls for regular ships? Perhaps shields have had their dissipation rates improved?
As I said before, many of the new GA ships were designed to take out their imperial equivalents. Listed examples are from wookieepedia:
1. Viscount-class Star Defender: Designed to go toe to toe with Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts (Vader's command ship).
Could carry more starfighters
Had a smaller crew
Heavier armor
Regenerative Shields
>9000 weapons emplacements (compared to 5000 for Executor)
Better computers, electronical equipment, and sensor systems
Has its own holonet transceiver
2. Mediator-class battle cruiser
Next Generation of Mon Calamari star cruiser
Inner armor was strong enough to prevent destruction of ship in the event of nuclear detonation inside a hangar (this would kill an ISD)
3. Bothan Assault Cruiser
Replacement for Victory Class Star Destroyer
Armor and shields were 150% better than Victory Class
4. Majestic-class heavy cruiser
Smaller than imperial type star destroyers and fewer weapons, but could none the less go one on one with an imperial due to improved targeting systems for longer range combat and higher speed and maneuverability.
5. MC80B Star Cruiser
Better shields than imperial class star destroyers.
6.Republic Class Star Destroyer
1/2 the cost of an Imperial Class Star destroyer
1/5 the crew '' '' '' '' '' ''
20% more firepower than imperial 1
Still outmatched by imperial 2

Also, as we often (if not always) see in Star Wars, conventional warfare is not everything. In terms of force users, the Legacy galaxy has a huge advantage, most notably Luke Skywalker, who may very well be the most powerful force user who ever lived. Their is also Luke's new Jedi order, which on the whole seems far more competent than the old one. Honestly, I see the war coming down to Luke sneaking his stealth x onto palpatine's Executor star dreadnought, pwning him the way Mace Windu should have if it wasn't for emokin, then loling while the Empire falls apart without Palpatine's rule. After this, the GA defense fleet can simply take out the resulting warlord fiefdoms one by one.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by fractalsponge1 »

Is it just me, or is there insufficient info in the OP to judge this? What kind of supplies does the invading fleet carry? Is the invasion carried out by everything the ROTJ galaxy has, or just a portion of the forces involved? 6 months at maximum speed implies a great distance. Supplying the entire Imperial Navy over that distance would be a logistical nightmare, unless it can quickly capture and re-use infrastructure. Use only a portion of the fleet and the comparison changes. Is it a conquer everything sort of attack or just to defeat the mobile forces of the Legacy galaxy?

Are there any hard numbers for the Legacy-era galaxy total fleet size (garrison, private, member-state military etc.)? I seem to recall the Imperial Remnant of this time being limited to basically a dozen sector groups worth; is that a significant fraction of the total available? If so, then the Legacy galaxy is screwed vs a galaxy that can field a thousand (unless it's not the full ROTJ Imperial military being used in the scenario, see above).

Technology wise, I'm not seeing anything quantifiable so far. "Designed to take out" is ambiguous at best; motor-torpedo boats are designed to take out much larger and individually more powerful ships, but you could hardly say they were a better option to, say, a destroyer in the majority of circumstances.

Viscount: any indication of gun yield? 9000 vs 5000 of what kind of gun? Does it have enough starfighters over and above an Executor's potential complement to make remotely a significant contribution in a 1e27W-scale engagement? How many of them are there?

Mediator: what yield was the detonation? Same as the one that destroyed an ISD? And if so, great, a star battlecruiser is tougher than a star destroyer. How would it compare to the Byss cordon ships if we scaled reactors? Do we even have enough information to do that?

Bothan Assault Cruiser: 150% tougher than a VSD. So, it's a smaller ship than an ISD, that's ... still worse than an ISD?

Majestic: Does standing up to an ISD = staying right at the edge of effective range landing potshots and being a nuisance? I guarantee you, unless there is some miraculous advance in reactor technology that I've never heard of between ROTJ and LOTF, this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Majestic ... vy_cruiser is not remotely in the same league as an ISD for power density. That kind of difference means that a Majestic will need to be very careful, not make nearly as many mistakes as an ISD, and take a long time to actually kill an ISD. Doesn't sound like such a robust advantage or technological "edge".

Republic-class: even if we accept the somewhat specious notion that an ISDII is >>20% more powerful than an ISDI despite having almost exactly the same sized reactor bulb, then the RSD is basically a more cost-efficient ISDI analogue. Again, that doesn't seem like much of a technological edge.

As for Force User advantage; yes, LOTF does seem to have many more trained force users than ROTJ. But relying on deus ex machinas to win galactic wars? Seriously?
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Darth Hoth wrote:Can someone please quantify the "technological advancement" we hear so much about? Has power generation increased by orders of magnitude? Or do improved construction techniques allow for greater hulls for regular ships? Perhaps shields have had their dissipation rates improved?

Because thus far, no one has basically said anything of substance.

From what I recall . . . The Ralroost was somewhat more powerful than a Victory-class. But not orders of magnitudes more powerful. Twenty years of tech progress in a mostly stagnant society does not imply victory.
1. There are several quotes saying that LOTF era tech was far more advanced than OT era tech.
2. A lot of the OT era tech had been replaced by the LOTF era tech, and why would they do that if the former was more advanced? The tech wasn't lost or anything, so therefore the LOTF era tech must have been better in some way.
3. LOTF era tech had gimmicks that wasn't available in OT era tech, such as long range turbolasers and 0.4 class hyperdrives.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by fractalsponge1 »

Why would they replace tech? Doctrinal changes, cost effectiveness, combat experience, political considerations? Same technological base, different permutation of characteristics. Likely with a different, and not necessarily smaller, set of limitations.

Re long range turbolasers: Venators from way back in the clone wars had heavy turbolasers that could hit targets at 10 light minutes, which was already within sensor range reaching several light days (though not necessarily providing firing solution grade data). And that ability is largely useless in ship-to-ship because hitting a target moving at 4-digit g with a 10 minute lead time is pretty much impossible. Ships need to close to achieve reliably decisive results, in any event. The Majestic's armament could 1) simply fire faster, thus increasing the likelihood that some shots will hit at greater ranges, 2) have better than average fire control, which means it can open fire at greater ranges (with a proportionately lower likelihood of hitting, or 3) just have a marketing BS label that boils down to very little at the end of the day.

A casual browse of wookie shows two instances of 0.4 class hyperdrives, one being for a starfighter. Is there any indication that this is more than just a rare gimmick?
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

fractalsponge1 wrote:Why would they replace tech? Doctrinal changes, cost effectiveness, combat experience, political considerations? Same technological base, different permutation of characteristics. Likely with a different, and not necessarily smaller, set of limitations.
doctrinal changes - superweapons maybe, but other than that not much
cost effectiveness - which would mean that the new tech is indeed better
combat experience - "
political considerations - how?

Besides, many sources say that the newer stuff was more powerful than the old stuff, such as when a bunch of late CW era ships got pwned by LOTF era ships (although it was a trap, but that's beside the point)


Re long range turbolasers: Venators from way back in the clone wars had heavy turbolasers that could hit targets at 10 light minutes, which was already within sensor range reaching several light days (though not necessarily providing firing solution grade data). And that ability is largely useless in ship-to-ship because hitting a target moving at 4-digit g with a 10 minute lead time is pretty much impossible. Ships need to close to achieve reliably decisive results, in any event. The Majestic's armament could 1) simply fire faster, thus increasing the likelihood that some shots will hit at greater ranges, 2) have better than average fire control, which means it can open fire at greater ranges (with a proportionately lower likelihood of hitting, or 3) just have a marketing BS label that boils down to very little at the end of the day.

A casual browse of wookie shows two instances of 0.4 class hyperdrives, one being for a starfighter. Is there any indication that this is more than just a rare gimmick?
CW era ships were considered to be ancient hardware by the time of the LOTF era. Imperial era tech was being replaced; tie fighters and tie interceptors were being replaced by starhunters, which were stated to be far more powerful than the older tech. Large imperial star destroyers were being replaced by smaller and more maneuverable ships as well as even more powerful star destroyers.

Besides, what about the NJO? Luke leading a strike force of Jedi could infiltrate Sidious's palace and assassinate him.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by fractalsponge1 »

Some examples of doctrinal changes: relying on larger numbers of small ships that work together vs larger targets, as opposed to using smaller numbers of individually more powerful units (think TIE Fighters vs X-wings), or deciding to attempt to engage at longer range, which would drive adoption of different technology using the same technical base, such as a turbolaser with a longer barrel and more focusing circuitry. Or using ion cannons to try and capture enemy ships vs destroying them...the list can go on and on.

Cost effectiveness - just because something is cheaper to run for a given role, doesn't make it better for all roles. Building 100 light gunships might be very cost effective for defending convoys against fighters, but absolutely worthless for killing a heavy capital ship that cost the equivalent of 200 light gunships. It is even more worthless if your enemy brought two of those capital ships when you only had 100 gunships to defend with...

Political considerations - oh, I don't know, how about "we want to seem less threatening than the Galactic Empire, so we'll deliberately rely on smaller and less dangerous ships"?
Star Wars 888 wrote:CW era ships were considered to be ancient hardware by the time of the LOTF era. Imperial era tech was being replaced; tie fighters and tie interceptors were being replaced by starhunters, which were stated to be far more powerful than the older tech. Large imperial star destroyers were being replaced by smaller and more maneuverable ships as well as even more powerful star destroyers.
Dreadnoughts and Invincible-class ships were ancient, but kept in active service during the imperial era. The packaging of the technology varies in its applicability, but the base technology does not advance much at all. For example, Victories had low acceleration and so was less suited to active roles hunting Rebels, but does that mean that the galaxy of its time period was incapable of building fast capital ships? Obviously not, given the Venator and Acclamator. Does it mean that Victories were not useful combatants in defensive or deterrence roles? No.

The LOTF galaxy might be producing smaller, cheaper to run and man designs because the resources and priorities available did allow for the construction of more powerful ships. They might have been building a hi/lo force mix, rather than relying on a more homogenous force of ISDs to cover the destroyer role. Going the other way, the LOTF galaxy might have decided that using more expensive hyperdrive-capable fighters with shields was a better option than relying on a mass of light sublight only fighters. Of course, such large fighters were abundant even during the Clone Wars. But all of that is just shifting the packaging of components well within the realm of possibility already seen by ROTJ, bounded on one end by the TIE Fighter and the other by Death Star 2.

Oh, and you do understand that asserting something here requires some level of proof? "More powerful" - more powerful how? Quotes, numbers? Anything to demonstrate that the LOTF galaxy was fundamentally more advanced than the ROTJ one, or could offset the apparently massive numerical inferiority?
Besides, what about the NJO? Luke leading a strike force of Jedi could infiltrate Sidious's palace and assassinate him.
You understand that because the OP gave basically no indication of the strategic setup, this is basically a worthless statement? Would it take them 6 months to get to the ROTJ galaxy? Would Palpatine even come along? Without some basic information about how such a vs is going to be set up, we can pull individual examples out of the air all day and not get anywhere.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Darth Hoth »

Tech debate aside, I love it how people want to use the "movies only" two Sith only ever set-up against the entire New Jedi Order and proclaim an instawin . . . when that entire order is an EU construct.

If people were remotely fair, they would not pretend that the Emperor's Hands, Dark Jedi, Inquisitorius, Prophets of the Dark Side, Sovereign Protectors, Dark Side Adepts, et al, did not exist.

Also, what has Legacy Luke done that puts him on par with the heights of Force power demonstrated by Palpatine in Dark Empire and its attendant sourcebook? Is he flinging around planets like crocket balls, now? If so, lucky me that I quit the EU after the Dark Nest books . . .
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by NecronLord »

Darth Hoth wrote:Also, what has Legacy Luke done that puts him on par with the heights of Force power demonstrated by Palpatine in Dark Empire and its attendant sourcebook? Is he flinging around planets like crocket balls, now? If so, lucky me that I quit the EU after the Dark Nest books . . .
Just stepping in to take objection to that. In Dark Empire, Luke beat Wankatine in a duel and then shut him out of controlling his powers (Admittedly with Leia and a foetus' help to shut him down) and that was that. No more force powers for Palpy. The whole point of Dark Empire is that it's Luke coming into full manhood (or at least, Jedi Mastery) where he can compete with Palpatine successfully. That's what makes it better than just random crap about Palpy coming back to life and ripping apart fleets with his mighty power. There is no reason to think that a confrontation between an older, more experienced Grand Master Luke Skywalker and younger, less knowledgeable Palpatine wouldn't result in Palpatine getting his clock cleaned.

Palpatine lasted mere seconds against Skywalker, and that was when Palpatine was in a healthy body, let alone a geriatric one.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by Star Wars 888 »

Daala's maw irregular fleet had powerful prototype weapons, but the fact that the ships were imperial era was stated to be a negative thing in a battle. Oh, and GA troops and other lotf soldiers can actually hit guys unlike imperial stormtroopers.

Luke by lotf is the most powerful Force user in SW history minus beings like Zonama Sekot. A bunch stormtrooper guard would not be able to stop him. Imperial star destroyers would get fucked up by Jedi in stealth x's.
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Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa

Post by fractalsponge1 »

Star Wars 888 wrote:snip
I see you're not going to bother to provide the kind of data that would make this worthless scenario interesting or informative to anyone. Thanks for wasting people's time.
Star Wars 888 wrote:Imperial star destroyers would get fucked up by Jedi in stealth x's.
The level of wank and stupidity implicit in this statement is astonishing.
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