Phantom Menace and bad writing

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Post by Formless » 2010-02-05 03:45am

adam_grif wrote:
Formless wrote: Better writing wouldn't save Hayden Christensen's or Natelie Portman's acting.
Maybe not, but it certainly would have helped. I hate sand, it's so sandy.
Not necessarily. AotC credits someone someone else as having helped write the screenplay for it in addition to Lucas, and I find it to be the suckiest of the lot.
:roll: Your conclusion is moronic considering the fact that Lucas WAS THE FUCKING EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF THE FILM. Does that mean nothing to you?
It's moronic to think that another writer or director being on board might have improved the prequel trilogy? How so?
No, its moronic to think that Lucas's role in the creation of Empire was significantly less than any of the other movies when he 1) helped write it 2) was directly responsible for making the climax of the movie so memorable 3) was the goddamn executive producer. Need that spelled out any clearer?
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Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-05 03:55am

Not necessarily. AotC credits someone someone else as having helped write the screenplay for it in addition to Lucas, and I find it to be the suckiest of the lot.
Difference of opinion then. I'd say it goes RotS > AotC > TPM.
No, its moronic to think that Lucas's role in the creation of Empire was significantly less than any of the other movies when he 1) helped write it 2) was directly responsible for making the climax of the movie so memorable 3) was the goddamn executive producer. Need that spelled out any clearer?
How are we supposed to measure his "involvement" here? He wrote an early draft and was a producer?

Wikipedia says that an executive producer is:
a producer who is not involved in any technical aspects of the film making or music process, but who is still responsible for the overall production. Typically an executive producer handles business and legal issues.
Not being the director is already a huge drop in his creative involvement here. That he didn't write the later / final drafts is a further distancing.

I would consider this to be "significant".
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Post by Formless » 2010-02-05 04:08am

adam_grif wrote:
Not necessarily. AotC credits someone someone else as having helped write the screenplay for it in addition to Lucas, and I find it to be the suckiest of the lot.
Difference of opinion then. I'd say it goes RotS > AotC > TPM.
At least TPM had a half decent climax. AotC's:

A hundred or so jedi sneak into a coliseum on a world with no humans without getting caught by security or Dooku. Despite this impressive feat or stealth, rather than doing the sensible thing of getting to the prisoners directly they hide in the stands. Then, only after getting their asses kicked by battle droids does the clone army finally decide to show up and save them. How convenient.

You really think that nonsense is indicative of better writing?
No, its moronic to think that Lucas's role in the creation of Empire was significantly less than any of the other movies when he 1) helped write it 2) was directly responsible for making the climax of the movie so memorable 3) was the goddamn executive producer. Need that spelled out any clearer?
How are we supposed to measure his "involvement" here? He wrote an early draft and was a producer?

Wikipedia says that an executive producer is:
a producer who is not involved in any technical aspects of the film making or music process, but who is still responsible for the overall production. Typically an executive producer handles business and legal issues.
Not being the director is already a huge drop in his creative involvement here. That he didn't write the later / final drafts is a further distancing.

I would consider this to be "significant".
Again, since you missed it the first two times: LUCAS WAS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WRITING THE SURPRISE AT THE END THAT EVERYONE REMEMBERS THIS MOVIE FOR. You really think his influence on the film was any less than the other movies? Goddamn are you dense as shit.
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Post by Formless » 2010-02-05 04:17am

Lets take a moment to consider the importance of an executive producer. An executive producer is the guy who greenlights the movie. They also have a say on what must be in the movie. If the executive producer says "this will be a romance," then romance it is. If they tell a director "this is going to be an adventure movie" then that's what its going to be, or the director gets fired. The director does get more direct influence on the movie, and true many movies the producer stays out of their way. But not always. Why do you think this is the case with George Lucas?
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
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Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-05 04:18am

At least TPM had a half decent climax. AotC's:

A hundred or so jedi sneak into a coliseum on a world with no humans without getting caught by security or Dooku. Despite this impressive feat or stealth, rather than doing the sensible thing of getting to the prisoners directly they hide in the stands. Then, only after getting their asses kicked by battle droids does the clone army finally decide to show up and save them. How convenient.

You really think that nonsense is indicative of better writing?
The fastest way to the Naboo is going through.... theeee plaaaanet cooore.

Midichlorians are microscopic organisms.

They must be dead by now. Kill what's left of them.

Etc etc. AotC was by no means great, but I'd watch it over TPM anyday.

Again, since you missed it the first two times: LUCAS WAS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WRITING THE SURPRISE AT THE END THAT EVERYONE REMEMBERS THIS MOVIE FOR. You really think his influence on the film was any less than the other movies? Goddamn are you dense as shit.
OH, right, because the climax is the only reason that it's a great film. I already had that ending spoiled big time before I ever saw the film, but I still consider it to be the greatest by far. The characters are written better and interact with each other better, the overall plot is better. Yes, it's a great climax, but that's not all the movie has going for it.

He wrote the climaxes for all of the Star Wars fimls, not just that one. But he was more involved in the other ones. That's the central point I'm getting at, and you're not managing to rebuke this. Are you saying that not having written the final version of the script, and not directing the film is somehow only a minor reduction in involvement?
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-05 04:22am

Formless wrote:Lets take a moment to consider the importance of an executive producer. An executive producer is the guy who greenlights the movie. They also have a say on what must be in the movie. If the executive producer says "this will be a romance," then romance it is. If they tell a director "this is going to be an adventure movie" then that's what its going to be, or the director gets fired. The director does get more direct influence on the movie, and true many movies the producer stays out of their way. But not always. Why do you think this is the case with George Lucas?
I didn't say the Executive producer isn't an important thing. But he was also the producer on all the others, too, except the original. So he takes on all of the same roles as V, but then more on top of that in the others. Ergo, in V, he is less involved because he is responsible for fewer things related to the film.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Post by Channel72 » 2010-02-05 07:20am

Formless wrote:No, its moronic to think that Lucas's role in the creation of Empire was significantly less than any of the other movies when he 1) helped write it 2) was directly responsible for making the climax of the movie so memorable 3) was the goddamn executive producer. Need that spelled out any clearer?
Regardless of his role in the development of any particular Star Wars film, George Lucas is a mixed bag. He's obviously a creative and visual F/X genius; he's arguably had more of an impact on modern film than anyone else in the last three decades. Criticizing his work is almost an exercise in futility, given that Star Wars IV and V are probably two of the best films ever created in the history of cinema, regardless of how personally involved he was in either.

But his later films (i.e. the Prequels) have really called into question his writing ability, leading many people to suspect that the success of the Original Trilogy, aside from Lucas's breakthrough VFX, resulted from a collaboration with other writers/directors. Personally, I would speculate that the tragic theme of the Prequels, the fall of Anakin Skywalker, was simply too difficult and deep a subject for Lucas to convincingly write by himself, and he never really had the sort of quality talent helping him write the script that he had with the OT. The result was an entire film which had barely anything to do with Anakin's character, followed by two films which sort of just went through the motions. Lucas is great at swash-buckling, epic adventure, but the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker was simply beyond his ability to write convincingly.

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Post by starfury » 2010-02-05 03:04pm

Regardless of his role in the development of any particular Star Wars film, George Lucas is a mixed bag. He's obviously a creative and visual F/X genius; he's arguably had more of an impact on modern film than anyone else in the last three decades. Criticizing his work is almost an exercise in futility, given that Star Wars IV and V are probably two of the best films ever created in the history of cinema, regardless of how personally involved he was in either.
Actually many People hated the Entire OT for ushering in the age of Blockbusters during the 1980s, late 70s, as the US Film Industry was more dominated by the New Hollywood wave of Film Making, they hated Star Wars Period for helping to destroy that, Apocalypse Now was what they considered to real movies and all the Star wars OT was hated even more vehmently then nerds hated the Prequels now for that act.
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Post by Formless » 2010-02-05 04:37pm

adam_grif wrote:
At least TPM had a half decent climax. AotC's:

A hundred or so jedi sneak into a coliseum on a world with no humans without getting caught by security or Dooku. Despite this impressive feat or stealth, rather than doing the sensible thing of getting to the prisoners directly they hide in the stands. Then, only after getting their asses kicked by battle droids does the clone army finally decide to show up and save them. How convenient.

You really think that nonsense is indicative of better writing?
The fastest way to the Naboo is going through.... theeee plaaaanet cooore.
Oh, fucking A... You are taking the word of a gungan, a species they went out of their way to portray as primitive compared to the rest of the galaxy, at face value. Do you really think that line was supposed to be taken literally?
Midichlorians are microscopic organisms.
How does that make less sense than the showboating of Mace wankadu in AotC?
They must be dead by now. Kill what's left of them.
I have no idea what this references. Of course, I haven't seen the movie in over a year, so there might be something I forgot here or there. And again, one liners have no effect on the plot. Mace "I must do this in the most retarded way possible just to look cool" Windu does.
Etc etc. AotC was by no means great, but I'd watch it over TPM anyday.
By all means, but don't try and claim that its better written and then try using these moronic examples to try and prove it.

Again, since you missed it the first two times: LUCAS WAS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WRITING THE SURPRISE AT THE END THAT EVERYONE REMEMBERS THIS MOVIE FOR. You really think his influence on the film was any less than the other movies? Goddamn are you dense as shit.
OH, right, because the climax is the only reason that it's a great film. I already had that ending spoiled big time before I ever saw the film, but I still consider it to be the greatest by far. The characters are written better and interact with each other better, the overall plot is better. Yes, it's a great climax, but that's not all the movie has going for it.

He wrote the climaxes for all of the Star Wars fimls, not just that one. But he was more involved in the other ones. That's the central point I'm getting at, and you're not managing to rebuke this. Are you saying that not having written the final version of the script, and not directing the film is somehow only a minor reduction in involvement?
Jesus tittiefucking christ, what part of the word "insignificant" do you not understand? Even the director wasn't told about "Luke, I am your father and you want me to believe that Lucas had nothing to do with the film's success, no significant role in the films creative process? You are a moron.
I didn't say the Executive producer isn't an important thing. But he was also the producer on all the others, too, except the original. So he takes on all of the same roles as V, but then more on top of that in the others. Ergo, in V, he is less involved because he is responsible for fewer things related to the film.
No doubt. What is in contention is the notion that this difference was a significant reduction in his creative input on Empire compared to the rest of the franchise. The fact that he could go behind his director's back suggests otherwise.
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Post by Formless » 2010-02-05 04:55pm

Channel72 wrote:But his later films (i.e. the Prequels) have really called into question his writing ability, leading many people to suspect that the success of the Original Trilogy, aside from Lucas's breakthrough VFX, resulted from a collaboration with other writers/directors.
Curiously, these people almost always focus on the Star Wars movies as if they are the only movies Lucas has ever helped write.
Personally, I would speculate that the tragic theme of the Prequels, the fall of Anakin Skywalker, was simply too difficult and deep a subject for Lucas to convincingly write by himself, and he never really had the sort of quality talent helping him write the script that he had with the OT. The result was an entire film which had barely anything to do with Anakin's character, followed by two films which sort of just went through the motions. Lucas is great at swash-buckling, epic adventure, but the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker was simply beyond his ability to write convincingly.
Revenge of the Sith, the movie that directly dealt with Anakin's fall, was arguably the best of the prequels, and on par with the OT in most people's eyes. And yet unlike Attack of the Clones, only Lucas is credited with writing it. The movie which he wrote by himself is better and actually gets to the meat of the story, and the movie which we know he had help writing is considered by most to be inferior. Methinks your speculation needs work.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
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“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Post by Channel72 » 2010-02-05 07:04pm

Formless wrote:Revenge of the Sith, the movie that directly dealt with Anakin's fall, was arguably the best of the prequels, and on par with the OT in most people's eyes. And yet unlike Attack of the Clones, only Lucas is credited with writing it. The movie which he wrote by himself is better and actually gets to the meat of the story, and the movie which we know he had help writing is considered by most to be inferior. Methinks your speculation needs work.
I'll agree that RotS is the best of the prequels, but on par with the OT? Now that's highly debatable. RotS was a decent movie, but it really suffered from all the baggage of the previous two movies; sterile acting, unconvincing love-story, etc. Worst of all, Anakin's fall was somewhat rushed, since Lucas wasted an entire movie on a useless plot that had barely anything to do with Anakin's character at all. For all intents and purposes, we only really meet Anakin in AotC. I still cannot fathom why Lucas decided to write an entire film where Anakin is a peripheral child character; I guess he just wanted to make a film that appealed to children, but this decision really detracted from the overall tragedy. Imagine how much more interesting it would have been if Episode I showed the build-up to the Clone Wars, with Anakin as a young Jedi in training, and Episode II showed Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting side by side in various adventures during the Clone-Wars. This would have really given Lucas the opportunity to flesh out Anakin's character, making it all the more tragic when he turned to the dark side in Episode III. Instead, Lucas decided to save all that for a TV cartoon which comparatively fewer people will actually watch.

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Post by Formless » 2010-02-05 07:40pm

Channel72 wrote:I'll agree that RotS is the best of the prequels, but on par with the OT? Now that's highly debatable.
Its at least as good as Return of the Jedi. Before there were gungans, there were the ewoks who were just as exploitative and dumb an idea. Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith also mirror each other quite nicely, which adds to the overall effect. In fact, I would submit to you that RotS is best appreciated when you have already seen RotJ (or vice verse). The same is actually true of ANH and TPM, but unfortunately where Luke was a teenager who everyone can identify with, Anakin is an eight year old. And acts like one. And instead of the Death Star, we have a droid control ship and the silliness of the droid army literally falling to pieces when it gets destroyed.
RotS was a decent movie, but it really suffered from all the baggage of the previous two movies; sterile acting, unconvincing love-story, etc. Worst of all, Anakin's fall was somewhat rushed, since Lucas wasted an entire movie on a useless plot that had barely anything to do with Anakin's character at all. For all intents and purposes, we only really meet Anakin in AotC. I still cannot fathom why Lucas decided to write an entire film where Anakin is a peripheral child character; I guess he just wanted to make a film that appealed to children, but this decision really detracted from the overall tragedy. Imagine how much more interesting it would have been if Episode I showed the build-up to the Clone Wars, with Anakin as a young Jedi in training, and Episode II showed Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting side by side in various adventures during the Clone-Wars. This would have really given Lucas the opportunity to flesh out Anakin's character, making it all the more tragic when he turned to the dark side in Episode III. Instead, Lucas decided to save all that for a TV cartoon which comparatively fewer people will actually watch.
I agree (notice that I only said that RotS is in the same league as the OT) but keep in mind that Lucas obviously wanted the two trilogies to mirror each other. Both Anakin and Luke came from Tatooine; both of them had a major success as a pilot early in their lives/careers in a military engagement; both had loved ones and friends that they wanted to protect; both lost a hand in a duel; both of them were mentored by Obi-wan, who happens to have a much larger role in the Prequels (to the point that he is honestly my favorite character of the prequels); both are faced by temptations from the dark side and Palpatine, and here of course they diverge as Anakin chooses to do the selfish thing, whereas Luke chooses the opposite. The problem with AotC, besides the generally poor plot, is that it barely has any of this. Indeed, as I see it, the name of the movie tells you all you need to know: the movie is dedicated to moving along the Palpatine plot with an unremarkable antagonist (Dooku), all to explain why they call them the "Clone Wars." The movie has little to do with any of its characters. Like the audience, they are just there for the ride, and to get Padme and Anakin hooked up. Whoop-die-doo.
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Post by starfury » 2010-02-05 08:16pm

The problem with AotC, besides the generally poor plot, is that it barely has any of this. Indeed, as I see it, the name of the movie tells you all you need to know: the movie is dedicated to moving along the Palpatine plot with an unremarkable antagonist (Dooku), all to explain why they call them the "Clone Wars." The movie has little to do with any of its characters. Like the audience, they are just there for the ride, and to get Padme and Anakin hooked up. Whoop-die-doo.
Wasn't Something I mentioned How Lucas seems to Cram 80% of the Total story in ROTS, and Even AOTC didn't have enough material, that was my major complaint of the prequels, the biggest advantage OT had over the prequels was this, all the materials seems decently spread among the three movies, but in the Prequels, the best ROTS had far more material then rest of the Trilogy combined.
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Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-05 11:18pm

By all means, but don't try and claim that its better written and then try using these moronic examples to try and prove it.
Are you trying to imply that there's some kind of objective measure of writing quality? TPM was shockingly written, and those were just examples from the top of my head. You're literally just disagreeing with my opinion here. This is hilarious.
Oh, fucking A... You are taking the word of a gungan, a species they went out of their way to portray as primitive compared to the rest of the galaxy, at face value. Do you really think that line was supposed to be taken literally?
Right, stupid things that happen don't mean bad writing, it means that the character is wrong. By this logic, there is no such thing as a plot hole because you can almost always explain it away in this fashion. You think a civilization with Theater shields and advanced watercraft don't know what a "Planet Core" is, or a "core" in general? The center?

It's just more stupid star wars shit that doesn't make sense. You have no evidence to suggest that the Gungans were wrong or lying.
How does that make less sense than the showboating of Mace wankadu in AotC?
Showboating is character stupidity, Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood. He explains The Force as microscopic organisms. I can't relate to you if you think that a character showboating is on the same level as this.
I have no idea what this references. Of course, I haven't seen the movie in over a year, so there might be something I forgot here or there. And again, one liners have no effect on the plot. Mace "I must do this in the most retarded way possible just to look cool" Windu does.
That's the line of dialogue that the retard leader of the trade federation utters after they have pumped gas into the room for a whopping 15 seconds. It is followed by them immediately opening the door to let the Jedi out to slaughter the battle-droids, who stand so close to the vision-obscuring gas that the Jedi can get within swinging range in under a second of leaping out.

And it isn't like they used their Jedi powers to escape, they just held their breath for like 25 seconds after the obvious white gas is slowly pumped into the room from the floor up.

Complete idiocy all round.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Post by Civil War Man » 2010-02-06 01:22am

adam_grif wrote:Are you trying to imply that there's some kind of objective measure of writing quality? TPM was shockingly written, and those were just examples from the top of my head. You're literally just disagreeing with my opinion here. This is hilarious.
You ridicule someone for suggesting there are objective measures of writing quality, while in the same post claiming that the writing quality of the Prequels is objectively bad. Awesome.

Fun little fact: In an interview with Jon Stewart, Lucas said that he found that there were three types of Star Wars fans. The first type are the ones who started with the Original Trilogy, many of whom hate the prequels. The second type are the ones who grew up with the Prequels, many of whom hate the original trilogy (this includes two of my younger cousins, who find Episodes IV-VI to be as boring as hell). The third type are the youngest generation who are introduced to Star Wars through the cartoons, many of them having never seen any of the movies.

On a side note, everything Boss Nass says is automatically awesome on account of him being voiced by Brian Blessed. DIIIIIIVE!
Showboating is character stupidity, Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood.
If you consider a pseudoscience explanation for "God a wizard The Force did it" to be a defilement of someone's childhood, you have way too much invested in this. There is at least one moment in every single Star Wars movie that makes me cringe because I don't like the way the line was written or the character delivered it, but I don't take it personally.

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Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-06 01:31am

You ridicule someone for suggesting there are objective measures of writing quality, while in the same post claiming that the writing quality of the Prequels is objectively bad. Awesome.
What? Where? Do I really have to qualify statements like "its horribly written" with a disclaimer to make sure you know that I know that it's just an opinion?
If you consider a pseudoscience explanation for "God a wizard The Force did it" to be a defilement of someone's childhood, you have way too much invested in this. There is at least one moment in every single Star Wars movie that makes me cringe because I don't like the way the line was written or the character delivered it, but I don't take it personally.
My post was hyperbole of course, but it was a completely terrible move and is in many ways just giving the finger to the mystical element of the original trilogy. It was never explained beyond vague allusions, and it was the better for it. Trying to do in the wizard and act like it's science is a really, really stupid thing and should never have been done.
On a side note, everything Boss Nass says is automatically awesome on account of him being voiced by Brian Blessed. DIIIIIIVE!
BRIAN BLESSED!??

I withdraw all complaints against the film. It is now awesome. At least George had the sense to pair up a large ham with his cheese.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Channel72 » 2010-02-06 04:21am

adam_grif wrote:Showboating is character stupidity, Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood. He explains The Force as microscopic organisms. I can't relate to you if you think that a character showboating is on the same level as this.
To be honest, I don't really even care that much about the Midichlorian bullshit or Jar Jar Binks, or any of that. Annoying as he is, at least Jar Jar actually breathes some life into a movie where everyone is basically a zombie or an 8-year old. The problem with TPM really comes down to the characters and the story; the story is underdeveloped and borderline incoherent, and the characters are difficult to relate to and mostly boring. Hilariously, the movie ends with a long light-sabre battle, (which seems to take place in the Death Star), scored with a dramatic chorus that suggests "epic", and yet the two "heroes" are literally fighting a bad guy who had one line of dialogue throughout the movie. That scene serves as a nice microcosm of the entire movie; a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Formless » 2010-02-06 02:39pm

Adam grief wrote:Right, stupid things that happen don't mean bad writing, it means that the character is wrong. By this logic, there is no such thing as a plot hole because you can almost always explain it away in this fashion.
When the character is supposed to be portrayed as stupid or primitive in mindset, then yes you stubborn idiot, that logically is what the writer intended you to conclude!
You think a civilization with Theater shields and advanced watercraft don't know what a "Planet Core" is, or a "core" in general? The center?

It's just more stupid star wars shit that doesn't make sense. You have no evidence to suggest that the Gungans were wrong or lying.
You are assuming they do. Back this assertion now, or concede that you are talking out of your ass.
Showboating is character stupidity, Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood. He explains The Force as microscopic organisms. I can't relate to you if you think that a character showboating is on the same level as this.
Translation: I don't actually have any rebuttal for what you are saying, so i'm just going to start bawling my eyes out like a toddler over how much an off the cuff line that everyone likes to drag out mindlessly personally offends me, and on top of that it must be that Lucas hates me personally and couldn't possibly have needed some kind of explanation of why his character thinks Anakin is the "Chosen One" that is supposed to hold the plot together. Could you be any more childish? I haven't seen this stupid of posting since I stopped paying attention to comment threads on YouTube.
That's the line of dialogue that the retard leader of the trade federation utters after they have pumped gas into the room for a whopping 15 seconds. It is followed by them immediately opening the door to let the Jedi out to slaughter the battle-droids, who stand so close to the vision-obscuring gas that the Jedi can get within swinging range in under a second of leaping out.

And it isn't like they used their Jedi powers to escape, they just held their breath for like 25 seconds after the obvious white gas is slowly pumped into the room from the floor up.

Complete idiocy all round.
Okay, this is probably the only thing you said in that entire post that isn't pants on head retarded or childish. That said, many chemical weapons such as nerve agents do not need you to breath them in in order to kill you: they can be absorbed through the skin and still poison you to death. That's why when emergency crews train for potential chemical attacks by, say, terrorists standard procedure is to strip the victims down and clean them off with hoses and showers. Its also the reason why the standard safety procedure for dealing with chemical spills is to thoroughly wash clean any part of your body that has been exposed to the chemicals. The behavior of the trade federation leader is not as stupid as you think it is.
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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-06 08:51pm

Adam grief wrote
Oh, I see what you did there.
When the character is supposed to be portrayed as stupid or primitive in mindset, then yes you stubborn idiot, that logically is what the writer intended you to conclude!
Uh huh. Except that we have no reason to think that they were so primitive or stupid, given that they still have super-high tech gear by modern standards, and that even people centuries ago had a solid understanding of what a "planet" was and what a "core" was.
You are assuming they do. Back this assertion now, or concede that you are talking out of your ass.
Back my assertion? You're the one asserting that they are lying or wrong, and your evidence is "hurr durr they're primitive". Really? Self sustaining underwater cities held in place with force fields, energy grenade weapons, theater shields and the like? Primitive by the standards of super-advanced star wars tech maybe, but so primitive that they don't know what a planet core is? See, they must know that the planet is round, because they're indicating that it has a core. A center.

You don't get to automatically assume people are lying when they say stupid things in Star Wars, because Star Wars is built on a foundation of stupid things like this. Tunneling through the planet core, while stupid, is no more or less stupid, scientifically, than hyper-drive or the force.
Translation: I don't actually have any rebuttal for what you are saying, so i'm just going to start bawling my eyes out like a toddler over how much an off the cuff line that everyone likes to drag out mindlessly personally offends me, and on top of that it must be that Lucas hates me personally and couldn't possibly have needed some kind of explanation of why his character thinks Anakin is the "Chosen One" that is supposed to hold the plot together. Could you be any more childish? I haven't seen this stupid of posting since I stopped paying attention to comment threads on YouTube.
I have to rebut your opinion that states that Mace Windu showboating was far more stupid than explaining the force as midichlorians? What can I possibly say other than "I disagree", which is already patently obvious given that our statements aren't the same? Are you demanding objective justification for my opinions, and then assuming that yours are correct until proven otherwise?

I'm childish am I?
Okay, this is probably the only thing you said in that entire post that isn't pants on head retarded or childish. That said, many chemical weapons such as nerve agents do not need you to breath them in in order to kill you: they can be absorbed through the skin and still poison you to death. That's why when emergency crews train for potential chemical attacks by, say, terrorists standard procedure is to strip the victims down and clean them off with hoses and showers. Its also the reason why the standard safety procedure for dealing with chemical spills is to thoroughly wash clean any part of your body that has been exposed to the chemicals. The behavior of the trade federation leader is not as stupid as you think it is.
But it doesn't kill them through the skin, and even if it did, chemical weapons are generally not effective in under 30 seconds. But whether or not it was "supposed to kill them instantly through the skin" or whatever, they were still pumping in an obvious deadly white gas, slowly, into the room with two Jedis into it. Like they could have poisoned the tea they were drinking (which they sipped as they discussed how fishy everything seemed), or put in a gas that wasn't obvious, white, and slow moving. Qui Gon identifies the gas by smell apparently. Or maybe there's only one white gas in the whole universe or something?

But whatever the explanation, there's still no reason why they'd immediately open the door. It isn't like there was any way for them to get out other than this door, there were no huge ventilation shafts to crawl through or other doors to leave through. You'd think they'd just immediately start cutting their way out like they do when they're trapped in rooms later in the same movie right? From the Viceroy's perspective there's no reason for them not to just like leave the room closed with gas for like an hour. Did they just really want to use the conference room or something? They knew Jedi weren't to be underestimated and were full of surprises (i.e. they shat their pants when they found out Jedi were there), so that they weren't erring on the side of caution is very suspect.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Formless » 2010-02-06 11:38pm

adam_grief wrote:Uh huh. Except that we have no reason to think that they were so primitive or stupid, given that they still have super-high tech gear by modern standards, and that even people centuries ago had a solid understanding of what a "planet" was and what a "core" was.
Wow do you have your head in the sand. I'm starting to think you and I did not watch the same movie. Yes, they had a theater shield-- one supplied to them (IIRC) by the people of Naboo. Please explain why they were using a catapult, pack animals, and otherwise treating their battle with the droids like a Napoleonic battle if they weren't in fact supposed to be obvious primitives even by our standards.
Back my assertion? You're the one asserting that they are lying or wrong, and your evidence is "hurr durr they're primitive".
Fuck you and your strawmen. I did NOT say that Nass is a liar. I said that you cannot take Boss Nass's word at face value because 1) the things he says make no physical sense, which was the entire goddamn point of your criticism, and 2) because these are a primitive culture with a belief set we are shown is prone to superstition. You are making the claim that Naboo is as the Gungans believe it is in spite of this, now show some goddamn evidence that this is the case, asshole.
I have to rebut your opinion that states that Mace Windu showboating was far more stupid than explaining the force as midichlorians? What can I possibly say other than "I disagree", which is already patently obvious given that our statements aren't the same? Are you demanding objective justification for my opinions, and then assuming that yours are correct until proven otherwise?

I'm childish am I?
Lets see. You resorted to regurgitating a dead horse piece of bullshit of a point about a single little scene in TPM that no one with half a mind even cares about anymore and which as I pointed out served a legitimate purpose to the overall story (something which you outright ignored), and then you went the extra mile by saying "WAAHH, GOERGE LUCAS TEABAGGED MY CHILDHOOD! MY CHILDHOOD!!11!" I on the other hand chose to criticize AotC's climax by pointing out that in it a character who we are told is one of the best the Jedi order has to offer (Mace Windu) decided to do something critical to the movie's plot in a way that was facepalmingly stupid and showboating and almost got him and everyone on that mission killed if the plot contrivance hadn't shown up when it did, and this kind of thing is indicative of bad writing.

Yeah, I'd say you are acting like a petty childish piece of shit.
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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-07 02:54am

Wow do you have your head in the sand. I'm starting to think you and I did not watch the same movie. Yes, they had a theater shield-- one supplied to them (IIRC) by the people of Naboo.
I'd like a source for that. It's certainly never stated in the movie, even if it is in some supplementary tech manual or some such thing.
Please explain why they were using a catapult, pack animals, and otherwise treating their battle with the droids like a Napoleonic battle if they weren't in fact supposed to be obvious primitives even by our standards.
I dunno, why did the battle-droids treat it like a Napoleonic battle if they weren't supposed to be primitive? They live underwater and they have no shortage of machinery and gear for that (Bongos et al). It's not exactly surprising that a people who don't spend all that much time on land would conscript their livestock into military service, because it's doubtful they have any dedicated military speeders or anything like that. This is supposed to be a "peaceful planet", yeah?

And this has nothing to do with not knowing what a planet core is. What, they don't know how to speak basic? They don't understand that core means "center"? They're so stupid that they don't know that the planet core is the center of the planet? You're jumping to conclusions big time, even if they are extremely primitive. What did they mean? Did they mean that the fastest way to the Naboo was by taking a bongo? Why didn't they just say that, instead of saying "da speediest way to da naboo, is going through.... deee plaaaaneeet cooooreeee. Nooow gooo!"
I said that you cannot take Boss Nass's word at face value because 1) the things he says make no physical sense, which was the entire goddamn point of your criticism

Yep, but that's irrelevant because this is Star Wars. Making sound in space makes no physical sense, having a battle-station that has enough energy to blow up multiple planets entirely (and send the debris flying out at relativistic velocities) makes no physical sense, going thousands or millions of times faster than light makes no physical sense, having materials that withstand multi-megatonne impacts with some minor scarring makes no physical sense, having visible, slower-than-sound lasers makes no physical sense, dying of heartbreak ("She lost the will to live") makes no physical sense, and having microorganisms in your cells telling you the future makes no physical sense.

The criticism is not that it isn't realistic, the criticism is that it's unnecessary, jarring, and ridiculous. If Lucas did not intend for them to be "going through the planet core", then why did he include the line? If it was an attempt at humor, it has utterly failed and is still noteworthy for being unfunny and for having so many people take it seriously.
and 2) because these are a primitive culture with a belief set we are shown is prone to superstition. You are making the claim that Naboo is as the Gungans believe it is in spite of this, now show some goddamn evidence that this is the case, asshole.
Uh uh, doesn't work like that. The burden of proof is on you to show that the Gunguns are wrong about this. The Jedi didn't bat an eyelash when they said it, nobody makes any comment on it, and they just go off and do their thing. It is explicitly stated that they are going to be going through the planet core, and the statement has no obvious indicators that it's untrue. They're primitive, certainly, but the idea that they were wrong on this when we are given no information to contradict the statement at all. You're presenting an after-the-fact rationalization for something that there is no real evidence for, just vague inductive inferences.
Lets see. You resorted to regurgitating a dead horse piece of bullshit of a point about a single little scene in TPM that no one with half a mind even cares about anymore and which as I pointed out served a legitimate purpose to the overall story (something which you outright ignored), and then you went the extra mile by saying "WAAHH, GOERGE LUCAS TEABAGGED MY CHILDHOOD! MY CHILDHOOD!!11!" I on the other hand chose to criticize AotC's climax by pointing out that in it a character who we are told is one of the best the Jedi order has to offer (Mace Windu) decided to do something critical to the movie's plot in a way that was facepalmingly stupid and showboating and almost got him and everyone on that mission killed if the plot contrivance hadn't shown up when it did, and this kind of thing is indicative of bad writing.

Yeah, I'd say you are acting like a petty childish piece of shit.
Oh, how hyperbolic of you.

I gave you multiple examples of the bad writing in TPM, and now you're acting as though that's the only one I gave, and that I'm thus childish because of this? Did I disagree that those aspects of AOTC were bad writing? No, I didn't.

Midichlorians didn't serve jack in the story. It did nothing that couldn't have been done by uttering "the force is strong with this one", which is all the justification we got for why people knew Luke was a force prodigy. Remove it from the movie and nothing changes, plot-wise.

It's bad writing because it replaces an interesting mystical element with bad science.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Channel72 » 2010-02-07 05:00am

adam_grif wrote:I dunno, why did the battle-droids treat it like a Napoleonic battle if they weren't supposed to be primitive?
That's a good point. When the Trade Federation occupiers got word of the approaching Gungan infantry, why didn't they just shrug and order the droid control ship to obliterate all of them from orbit? The Gungans only activated their shields immediately before the battle started, so that would have totally wiped them out - all of them. Sigh...

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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Formless » 2010-02-07 09:40pm

adam_grief wrote:
Wow do you have your head in the sand. I'm starting to think you and I did not watch the same movie. Yes, they had a theater shield-- one supplied to them (IIRC) by the people of Naboo.
I'd like a source for that. It's certainly never stated in the movie, even if it is in some supplementary tech manual or some such thing.
The technical cross sections series, IIRC. Besides, the alternative is that they are somehow able to make a theater shield capable of shrugging off blaster artillery yet they have no firearms and no motorized vehicles. Which do you find more likely?
I dunno, why did the battle-droids treat it like a Napoleonic battle if they weren't supposed to be primitive?
They only did that when their artillery proved ineffective against the theater shield. And notice something: blasters > slings and goop.
They live underwater and they have no shortage of machinery and gear for that (Bongos et al). It's not exactly surprising that a people who don't spend all that much time on land would conscript their livestock into military service, because it's doubtful they have any dedicated military speeders or anything like that. This is supposed to be a "peaceful planet", yeah?
And because they live underwater it would make sense for them to 1) not have the same level of geologic knowledge we have 2) have beliefs that correspond to their lifestyle. The idea that the ocean going to the center of the planet is an irrational belief in their culture is consistent with that, especially #2.
And this has nothing to do with not knowing what a planet core is. What, they don't know how to speak basic? They don't understand that core means "center"? They're so stupid that they don't know that the planet core is the center of the planet?
Maybe they do. In reality there are STILL people who think the earth is hollow or flat. Its not a matter of stupidity, its a matter of holding onto irrational beliefs, which many an otherwise smart person will do. Look at any discussion of religion in SLAM.
You're jumping to conclusions big time, even if they are extremely primitive. What did they mean? Did they mean that the fastest way to the Naboo was by taking a bongo?
No shit, Sherlock. That is exactly what they mean no matter how you try and twist the context.
Why didn't they just say that, instead of saying "da speediest way to da naboo, is going through.... deee plaaaaneeet cooooreeee. Nooow gooo!"
Who cares? Character stupidity or misspeaking is still more parsimonious than assuming that the character spoke inerrantly even though it makes neither physical sense nor logical sense when the capitol city is obviously on the same continent as the gungan city they departed from. I bet you are one of those fucktards who insists that Han Solo meant to say parsecs in ANH too even though this too makes no fucking sense if you know what a parsec is.
Yep, but that's irrelevant because this is Star Wars.
Fuck, you have never read the main website have you?
Making sound in space makes no physical sense, having a battle-station that has enough energy to blow up multiple planets entirely (and send the debris flying out at relativistic velocities) makes no physical sense, going thousands or millions of times faster than light makes no physical sense, having materials that withstand multi-megatonne impacts with some minor scarring makes no physical sense, having visible, slower-than-sound lasers makes no physical sense, dying of heartbreak ("She lost the will to live") makes no physical sense, and having microorganisms in your cells telling you the future makes no physical sense.

The criticism is not that it isn't realistic, the criticism is that it's unnecessary, jarring, and ridiculous. If Lucas did not intend for them to be "going through the planet core", then why did he include the line? If it was an attempt at humor, it has utterly failed and is still noteworthy for being unfunny and for having so many people take it seriously.
And using parsecs as a unit of speed when its a unit of distance is fucktarded too, and that was said in ANH. The gungans telling the Jedi that it goes through the core is hardly out of place in Star Wars. That does not excuse assuming that it is literally true just because someone said it that way. The difference between ships traveling FTL being physically impossible and the characters going through the core of the planet being impossible is that we see ships going FTL while the latter is based on the words of a character who is not known for his omniscience or intelligence. Fucktard.
Uh uh, doesn't work like that. The burden of proof is on you to show that the Gunguns are wrong about this.
I can't believe this horseshit hasn't been HoS'd already. READ. THE GODDAMN. WEBSITE, YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT. Characters misspeak, their words do not constitute evidence of such extraordinary claims. To assume so is an appeal to authority, a basic logic fallacy. What a load.
The Jedi didn't bat an eyelash when they said it, nobody makes any comment on it, and they just go off and do their thing.
The Jedi don't care, they aren't there to challenge people's belief systems, they are there to get to the capitol ASAP. In RotJ the characters not only didn't question the ewoks assumption that C3PO was a god even though they could, they actually encouraged it because they were more interested in the success of their mission.
It is explicitly stated that they are going to be going through the planet core, and the statement has no obvious indicators that it's untrue.
None except that geology does not work that way.
They're primitive, certainly, but the idea that they were wrong on this when we are given no information to contradict the statement at all.
Science does not work that way. You do NOT assume that just because someone said it it must be true, you need evidence of such claims. What are you, a creationist? A trekkie? No, you've mocked both groups before, so I have no idea how this concept escaped you up till now.
You're presenting an after-the-fact rationalization for something that there is no real evidence for, just vague inductive inferences.
Because that is all we can do, you fucktarded shitstain. Do you know nothing of the scientific method? No, of course not, because to you its easier to assume that characters don't misspeak than to be rational.
adam_grief wrote:
Formless wrote:Lets see. You resorted to regurgitating a dead horse piece of bullshit of a point about a single little scene in TPM that no one with half a mind even cares about anymore and which as I pointed out served a legitimate purpose to the overall story (something which you outright ignored), and then you went the extra mile by saying "WAAHH, GOERGE LUCAS TEABAGGED MY CHILDHOOD! MY CHILDHOOD!!11!" I on the other hand chose to criticize AotC's climax by pointing out that in it a character who we are told is one of the best the Jedi order has to offer (Mace Windu) decided to do something critical to the movie's plot in a way that was facepalmingly stupid and showboating and almost got him and everyone on that mission killed if the plot contrivance hadn't shown up when it did, and this kind of thing is indicative of bad writing.

Yeah, I'd say you are acting like a petty childish piece of shit.
Oh, how hyperbolic of you.
And I quote:
adam_grief wrote:Showboating is character stupidity, Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood.
OH, yeah, hyperbo-- oh, wait. You want to retract that statment, or are you dishonest too boot?
I gave you multiple examples of the bad writing in TPM, and now you're acting as though that's the only one I gave, and that I'm thus childish because of this? Did I disagree that those aspects of AOTC were bad writing? No, I didn't.
Dishonest cunt, I addressed every one you posted. You then challenged me when I called you childish, so of course that one is the one I am going to use as an example because it is the most blatant. Fuck off.
Midichlorians didn't serve jack in the story.
It also didn't detract from it near as much as you insist that it did.
It did nothing that couldn't have been done by uttering "the force is strong with this one", which is all the justification we got for why people knew Luke was a force prodigy. Remove it from the movie and nothing changes, plot-wise.
Because "God a wizard the Force did it" isn't incredibly lazy writing at all. Nope! It couldn't possibly be that some people find this to be one of the weaknesses of the OT. :roll:
It's bad writing because it replaces an interesting mystical element with bad science.
Like we really need another movie that substitutes mysticism for good writing in this culture. Oh, wait, I'm being incredibly sarcastic again. Shame on me.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-07 10:47pm

The technical cross sections series, IIRC. Besides, the alternative is that they are somehow able to make a theater shield capable of shrugging off blaster artillery yet they have no firearms and no motorized vehicles. Which do you find more likely?
Or they didn't prepare for a full scale confrontation with a battle-droid army, and had no real reason to modernize their military beyond what they already had. Similar reason to why the Naboo didn't have an army capable of fighting them off, even though they clearly aren't technologically inferior.
They only did that when their artillery proved ineffective against the theater shield. And notice something: blasters > slings and goop.
As stated above, they have a big ass ship in orbit and they only raised the shields after the droid army was within eyeballing distances. It reflects pretty poorly on the droid army. But it's not like they were really portrayed as hyper competent prior to this...
And because they live underwater it would make sense for them to 1) not have the same level of geologic knowledge we have 2) have beliefs that correspond to their lifestyle. The idea that the ocean going to the center of the planet is an irrational belief in their culture is consistent with that, especially #2.
No evidence to suggest that they have beliefs like that. Just more guesswork.
Who cares? Character stupidity or misspeaking is still more parsimonious than assuming that the character spoke inerrantly even though it makes neither physical sense nor logical sense when the capitol city is obviously on the same continent as the gungan city they departed from. I bet you are one of those fucktards who insists that Han Solo meant to say parsecs in ANH too even though this too makes no fucking sense if you know what a parsec is.
Actually, given that this is star wars, that the bongo can withstand core temperatures and fly through the planet core is pretty parsimonious, given that this is what he said would be happening and that it would not be impossible for SWtech. You can't use something being impossible in real life as evidence to suggest that he is full of shit when claiming that something impossible is happening.

The Han Solo parsecs debacle is an interesting point of discussion. Was Han just trying to impress them with flashy numbers and big words? Perhaps, but then he makes claims like "it can go 0.5 past lightspeed". Boy Han, I don't doubt that, but so can pretty much every hyperdrive capable ship in the entire galaxy. This is an example of something he's saying that's inconsistent within the SW universe, so we can thus explain that as "he's trying to impress them". It's still an inductive inference, but I'd say that's better supported than "well, they're pretty primitive so they don't know what a planet core is".

There's also that "it can make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs" isn't physically impossible (the Kessel run may indeed be less than 12 parsecs), but it's confusing units of distance and time, and it's really just a strange thing for him to say, given that he was answering a question about the speed of his ship. By contrast, flying through the planet core is perfectly logical, given that they asked which way was the speediest way to the Naboo, but makes no physical sense. In this way, it's not quite on the same level to justify something that is logically inconsistent as it is to justify something that is physically inconsistent (because physical inconsistencies are the norm in Star Wars, but logical ones are generally preserved).

As for the Parsecs specifically, I was under the impression that we already had an explanation about that from SW media? Something about black holes and having a really good computer to bounce closer to them to shave distance off?
Fuck, you have never read the main website have you?
I've read quite a bit of it, but not every page. Perhaps you should give me more specific instructions on where to go, since there's quite a bit of content there.
The difference between ships traveling FTL being physically impossible and the characters going through the core of the planet being impossible is that we see ships going FTL while the latter is based on the words of a character who is not known for his omniscience or intelligence. Fucktard.
There are plenty of things that people state but we don't actually see. The force binding the galaxy together is something I can think of straight away - we never see that, don't get any evidence for it. It also doesn't make much physical sense. Is this a reason to doubt his assertion?

Physically stupid things are perfectly at home with Star Wars. Hell, maybe the core of Naboo is actually liquid water, at reasonable pressure. Physically stupid? Damn straight it is. Insultingly stupid, actually. But then again, he said we're going through the Planet core, and the next scene is them flying through liquid water at reasonable pressure. That idea has more weight behind it than yours does.

Oh, hey, what do you know!

http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/naboo/
http://www.starwars.com/databank/vehicl ... index.html
The Gungan sub surfaces near Theed Palace, after navigating through the core of the planet Naboo.
Snapshot: Through the Planet's Core. Aboard a Gungan sub, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Jar Jar silently make their way through the watery planet core of Naboo.
Hohoho! That's better than I could have hoped for. And it's starwars.com too! Oh well, you'll just claim that it's not canon and that even though we have no higher canon contradicting it (and it's literally exactly what the movie says), we should just continue to go with your assumption because you really want to prove that TPM isn't stupidly written.
OH, yeah, hyperbo-- oh, wait. You want to retract that statment, or are you dishonest too boot?
What, you don't know what hyperbole is, or are you unable to read properly?
Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood.
"WAAHH, GOERGE LUCAS TEABAGGED MY CHILDHOOD! MY CHILDHOOD!!11!"
One of these statements is calm, and stating that Midichlorians is basically violating the original trilogy. The other is an all capitals exaggeration, implying that I was crying over it. Hyperbole is deliberate exaggeration for effect, ergo, your statement was hyperbole. Ergo my statement was accurate, and you're now clutching at straws.
Dishonest cunt, I addressed every one you posted. You then challenged me when I called you childish, so of course that one is the one I am going to use as an example because it is the most blatant. Fuck off.
Oh yeah, you replied to them, but you're saying I'm childish based on one of them, as though having one weak criticism (which is contentious anyway) somehow makes all of them childish?
It also didn't detract from it near as much as you insist that it did.
Thar be opinions in them thar hills.
Because "God a wizard the Force did it" isn't incredibly lazy writing at all. Nope! It couldn't possibly be that some people find this to be one of the weaknesses of the OT. :roll:
Of course The Force Did It is lazy writing if that's the only thing going on in your plot. But you know what's worse? Pretending that it isn't magic and trying to explain your mystical element.

The Force isn't just a plot device, although it's sometimes used in that way. If you're asking whether I think Deus Ex Machinas involving the force are lame, of course, they're lame regardless of what you call it. But The Force is also an important plot point in both trilogies, and explaining it as midichlorians does the plot an extreme disservice.
Like we really need another movie that substitutes mysticism for good writing in this culture. Oh, wait, I'm being incredibly sarcastic again. Shame on me.
Point is irrelevant, OT has mysticism in additon to good writing. It's not some kind of dichotomy.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

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Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Formless » 2010-02-08 03:11am

adam_grief wrote:As stated above, they have a big ass ship in orbit and they only raised the shields after the droid army was within eyeballing distances. It reflects pretty poorly on the droid army. But it's not like they were really portrayed as hyper competent prior to this...
Exactly.
Formless wrote:And because they live underwater it would make sense for them to 1) not have the same level of geologic knowledge we have 2) have beliefs that correspond to their lifestyle. The idea that the ocean going to the center of the planet is an irrational belief in their culture is consistent with that, especially #2.
No evidence to suggest that they have beliefs like that. Just more guesswork.
The fact that you have not ruled out the possibility makes your criticism bullshit. And its STILL far more parsimonious than assuming that the character is omniscient and the planet is actively giving the finger to the laws of physics.
Actually, given that this is star wars, that the bongo can withstand core temperatures and fly through the planet core is pretty parsimonious, given that this is what he said would be happening and that it would not be impossible for SWtech.
Bullshit.
You can't use something being impossible in real life as evidence to suggest that he is full of shit when claiming that something impossible is happening.
I am sick and fucking tired of hearing fanwhores make this idiotic assumption. If we take this argument to its logical conclusion, we can't say anything about the universe we are talking about because we have no way of knowing what the rules are. On the other hand, if it looks like a planet, smells like a planet, goes around a star like a planet, then its a goddamn planet, with all the laws of physics that apply. You can't just throw out laws of physics whenever they suit your whim, asshole, especially when your own criticism is based on the fact that the line makes no sense in context of those laws. When told to put up or shut up, put up or shut, you son of a handjob! Have you ever read these?
Fuck, you have never read the main website have you?
I've read quite a bit of it, but not every page. Perhaps you should give me more specific instructions on where to go, since there's quite a bit of content there.
Here is a good place to start. The whole thing is relevant, but scroll down to the part where he deals with dialogue vs visuals directly. However, even if you are trying a literary approach to your criticism (you aren't) the authors intent was clearly that they are primitives whose knowledge of the universe has limits.
There are plenty of things that people state but we don't actually see. The force binding the galaxy together is something I can think of straight away - we never see that, don't get any evidence for it. It also doesn't make much physical sense. Is this a reason to doubt his assertion?
The fact that the people who claim that it does can demonstrate that they do in fact have superhuman powers gives them some authority to make that claim. And besides, the more mystic elements may in fact be wrong. Ever think of that? That's why I don't care that much about the midichloriens bit, because its a big galaxy and its not unreasonable to expect there to be people with divergent beliefs. Its a nice touch of realism.
Physically stupid things are perfectly at home with Star Wars. Hell, maybe the core of Naboo is actually liquid water, at reasonable pressure. Physically stupid? Damn straight it is. Insultingly stupid, actually. But then again, he said we're going through the Planet core, and the next scene is them flying through liquid water at reasonable pressure. That idea has more weight behind it than yours does.

Oh, hey, what do you know!
IF the core of Naboo were made of water, the planet wouldn't have earthlike gravity because water has nowhere near the mass of uranium that the earth has at its core. As well, lifeforms the likes of which we see attack the hero's vessel could never survive at the kinds of ludicrous pressure and heat you would expect the core of a planet would exert even if it were made of water. Among other reasons, if it did have a core made of water, it would have to be ice due to the pressure. And if it were like you suggest, getting to the core would reasonably take well over a day at the speeds the hero's vehicle moves at because the core of an earthlike planet is unbelievable far away from the crust. What we see is the characters in a submarine go through an underground sea. We never see any of these things science predicts we should see if they were going through the actual core of a planet made of water. The level of stupidity you are engaged in is so unbelievable its making me wonder if I'm not talking to a chatbot.
Hohoho! That's better than I could have hoped for. And it's starwars.com too! Oh well, you'll just claim that it's not canon and that even though we have no higher canon contradicting it (and it's literally exactly what the movie says), we should just continue to go with your assumption because you really want to prove that TPM isn't stupidly written.
1) I never said that TPM isn't stupidly written. I said that its less stupid than AotC, and i explained how.
2) Good fucking god, see above you complete stubborn shitwit. According to canon, the movies are the highest authority, and according to what we see in the movies this is simply not what we see.
What, you don't know what hyperbole is, or are you unable to read properly?
I like watching you backtrack when your own words are right there for everyone to see.
Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood.
"WAAHH, GOERGE LUCAS TEABAGGED MY CHILDHOOD! MY CHILDHOOD!!11!"
One of these statements is calm, and stating that Midichlorians is basically violating the original trilogy. The other is an all capitals exaggeration, implying that I was crying over it. Hyperbole is deliberate exaggeration for effect, ergo, your statement was hyperbole. Ergo my statement was accurate, and you're now clutching at straws.
Midichlorians is George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood.
George Lucas rubbing his ass all over your childhood.
rubbing his ass all over your childhood
rubbing his ass all over your childhood
your childhood
You call that calm you lying sac of shit? Fuck you. My statement exaggerates only slightly to demonstrate how you sound to everyone else. That's not hyperbole its caricature at worst. You on the other hand have the gall to claim that your words were calm and rational when its right the fuck there for everyone with eyes to see what a backtracking liar you are.
Oh yeah, you replied to them, but you're saying I'm childish based on one of them, as though having one weak criticism (which is contentious anyway) somehow makes all of them childish?
Wow, you are just incredible. I never claimed your other points were childish, I am saying that you are acting childish, which your own words which everyone can read (and indeed one other person even commented on to make the same point) shows. Shut the fuck up.
Thar be opinions in them thar hills.
So tell me how the midichloriens actually affected the plot in a negative fashion? Oh, right, you can't. You also cannot apparently give me one example of bad writing in TPM which had as significant an affect on the plot as the climax of AotC, which is what I have repeatedly asked you to do.
Of course The Force Did It is lazy writing if that's the only thing going on in your plot. But you know what's worse? Pretending that it isn't magic and trying to explain your mystical element.
Because mysticism is so important to the story that it couldn't be removed and still be coherent. Oh wait.
The Force isn't just a plot device, although it's sometimes used in that way. If you're asking whether I think Deus Ex Machinas involving the force are lame, of course, they're lame regardless of what you call it. But The Force is also an important plot point in both trilogies, and explaining it as midichlorians does the plot an extreme disservice.
As opposed to giving us an insight into Qui Gon's character? You really are an unthinking fanwhore, aren't you.
Point is irrelevant, OT has mysticism in additon to good writing. It's not some kind of dichotomy.
Which it didn't need, and which only ever serves as a bullshit plot device. Just because it was in the OT doesn't make it any less stupid. But of course, being the fanwhore you are, you just had to regurgitate the same old same old talking point unthinkingly to prove your geek cred.
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