Phantom Menace and bad writing

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29168
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Vympel » 2010-02-02 07:36pm

How is it doing "too much" to have simultaneous land/space battles? This is Star Wars. Modern or futuristic battles are going to involve lots of people all over the place.
Even Lucas thought he over-extended himself there. Its about efficient story-telling - I found jumping from space battle to ground battle to battle for the palace to lightsabre fight over and over excessive and distracting. There was simply way too much going on.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-02 07:38pm

The Trade Federation were ready to give up when they saw Jedi. They are, however, even more scared of Sidious and with good reason. Killing the Jedi escalates the crisis and forces the Trade Federation to commit so of course Sidious ordered it. Futhermore, neither Sidious nor the Trade Federation wants Jedi investigating them. They're Jedi Masters acting for Valorum. They aren't going to go away because the Trade Federation tells them to fuck off.
Sidious is causing trouble so the current Chancellor will look like a fool. Yet he tells the Trade Federation to kill the Jedi. This is stupid because killing the Jedi will prevent word of the invasion from getting out. Sidious should have told the Trade Federation to tell the Jedi that their will be no negotiations and that they plan to invade the planet.

The Trade Federation then cuts off all communication with the planet. This is also stupid because it prevents word from getting out even though Sidious wants as many people to know about the invasion as possible.

He also orders the Trade Federation to get the Queen to sign the treaty. What is the Queen signs the treaty and then never tells anyone that she signed it under duress? Sidious wants to use the crises to replace the current Chancellor but is the invasion is legalized then there would be no crises.

Sidious wants to use the crises to his political advantage yet he takes every step to minimize the impact of the crises to the rest of the galaxy. He tries to prevent word of it from getting out and then tries to get it legalized. His actions contradict his plan.

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-02 07:41pm

Qui-Gon is easy to describe. He was the extremely wise and experienced Jedi Master, but was also the most independent and open-minded out of that stagnant order.
I wouldn't describe Qui-Gon as wise. Look at the retarded way he finally got the part from Watto. Plus he brought a child to a war zone.

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-02 07:44pm

I would like to appologize to Mr. Wong. I claimed in an early post that we never saw the Trade Federation use atmospheric fighters in TPM. However, having quickly watched a few scenes on youtube I can see that they do have atmospheric fighters. My mistake.

Jim Raynor
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2922
Joined: 2002-07-11 04:42am

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Jim Raynor » 2010-02-02 07:46pm

LordOskuro wrote:The point of the exercise was to showcase the strength of a character based on its traits alone, without resorting to the background to give him context. To put a non-SW example, it'd be easy to describe Gandalf as a wizard, but when you compare him to another wizard, say, Dumbledore, you need to actually describe his character rather than just his profession.

In the video, he actually compares characters from the OT to TPM characters, the first being Han Solo (scoundrel, dashing, rougish, self-serving, noble) vs Qui-Gonn (estoic, open-minded). Now, it is not impossible to describe the TPM characters, but they are generally bland, with fewer recognizable character traits, thus they are weaker as characters.
Mentioning that Qui-Gon Jinn is a Jedi is not "forgetting the rules," because he's still a Zen-like, open-minded maverick anyway, who stands by what he believes even if his bosses disagree. Jar Jar was full of personality, it was just an annoying one. Anakin was the brave, ambitious, idealistic kid, who dreamed of becoming a great hero. He was also attached to his mother, and being torn from her (and subsequently losing his father figure Qui-Gon) laid the groundwork for his fall to the Dark Side. I won't speak for Amidala and Obi-Wan in TPM, they were pretty bland. Those are the main characters of TPM.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2010-02-02 09:24pm

stormthebeaches wrote:
Sidious is causing trouble so the current Chancellor will look like a fool. Yet he tells the Trade Federation to kill the Jedi. This is stupid because killing the Jedi will prevent word of the invasion from getting out.
Really? The Trade Federation is magically going to be able to hide the invasion of an entire planet? No one will wonder why they can't talk to Naboo, the flashpoint of a crisis anymore? You want to stick with that?
Sidious should have told the Trade Federation to tell the Jedi that their will be no negotiations and that they plan to invade the planet. The Trade Federation then cuts off all communication with the planet. This is also stupid because it prevents word from getting out even though Sidious wants as many people to know about the invasion as possible.
Sidious doesn't want Jedi probing around and finding out from his small brained Trade Federation pawns that there's Sith involvement until it suits him. He certainly doesn't want Jedi strong arming his Trade Federation pawns into backing down, which was their first impulse. Qui-Gon is barely on the ship for five minutes and he knows something is abnormal. The whole scheme will unravel if the Jedi are allowed to investigate.

Blocking communications is the first sign Naboo has that they're about being invaded. It doesn't hide the war at all, it announces it. What it does hide is the circumstances around the landing and invasion from the galaxy at large, allowing Palpatine to push things forward according to his own time table.
He also orders the Trade Federation to get the Queen to sign the treaty. What is the Queen signs the treaty and then never tells anyone that she signed it under duress? Sidious wants to use the crises to replace the current Chancellor but is the invasion is legalized then there would be no crises.
All documents of surrender are signed under duress. The crisis is Valorum's inability to protect the peace and the rights of member planets. The treaty is meaningless to Sidious, except as a way of paralyzing the Senate (which he does anyway), but crucial for the Trade Federation who want to protect their claims to all their war gains. Sidious has to pretend to care (and help) in order to keep the Trade Federation on track.
Sidious wants to use the crises to his political advantage yet he takes every step to minimize the impact of the crises to the rest of the galaxy. He tries to prevent word of it from getting out and then tries to get it legalized. His actions contradict his plan.
Uh no. Word gets out just fine and even without the Jedi there's no way the whole galaxy would have ignored Naboo suddenly going silent in the middle of a crisis. The blocking of legal remedies in the Senate are what causes enough outrage to propel Sidious into Valorum's office without the treaty ever being signed. If Amidala hadn't escaped, he would have made an impassioned speech in the Senate about the suffering of his people and his martyred queen or something similar, to muster sympathy. With Amidala there in person, he simply tricked her into doing the work for him.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

User avatar
Oskuro
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2698
Joined: 2005-05-25 06:10am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Oskuro » 2010-02-02 09:34pm

Jim Raynor wrote:I won't speak for Amidala and Obi-Wan in TPM, they were pretty bland. Those are the main characters of TPM.
Actually, that's part of the trick. The video mentions Han Solo and C3PO from the OT, and Qui-Gon and Amidala from TPM, wich is partly cheating, since it skips both bland characters from OT and interesting characters from TPM.

Regardless, the exercise is interesting as a way to measure the strength of a character in a certain story.
unsigned

User avatar
Dooey Jo
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3127
Joined: 2002-08-09 01:09pm
Location: The land beyond the forest; Sweden.
Contact:

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Dooey Jo » 2010-02-03 06:07am

Yes, let's use this good, well thought out point to... "analyse" a few characters.

Chewbacca: Pointless side-kick

Oops, "side-kick" is a relation to the other characters, so that's out. Maybe "growls" can be added.

Jar-Jar Binks: Annoying, pathologically clumsy moron that always gets into trouble but manages to survive due to dumb luck.

Well that was quite a lot wasn't it. Surely more than we can come up with for Han Solo; "rogue with a heart of gold". Or Luke; "naïve young farm-boy". Or Leia; "feisty young damsel in distress".


So clearly by this good, well thought-out reasoning, Jar-Jar Binks is the greatest character in Star Wars.
Image
"Nippon ichi, bitches! Boing-boing."
Mai smote the demonic fires of heck...

Faker Ninjas invented ninjitsu

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-03 06:56am

Really? The Trade Federation is magically going to be able to hide the invasion of an entire planet? No one will wonder why they can't talk to Naboo, the flashpoint of a crisis anymore? You want to stick with that?
Sorry but according to the film it was only the Queen's word that brought that made the Senate aware of the invasion. The rest of the council acted in disbelief at the idea of an invasion and no one mentioned the blocked communications as evidence. When the Senate asked the Queen for evidence of an invasion why didn't she say: "Check the communications to Naboo. They have been blocked. That should be all the evidence that you need."

Even the word of two Jedi and two MIA pilots wasn't enough to convince the Senate that there was an invasion. It seems that the Republic government needs an absurd amount of evidence to prove that an invasion happens.
Sidious doesn't want Jedi probing around and finding out from his small brained Trade Federation pawns that there's Sith involvement until it suits him. He certainly doesn't want Jedi strong arming his Trade Federation pawns into backing down, which was their first impulse. Qui-Gon is barely on the ship for five minutes and he knows something is abnormal. The whole scheme will unravel if the Jedi are allowed to investigate.

Blocking communications is the first sign Naboo has that they're about being invaded. It doesn't hide the war at all, it announces it. What it does hide is the circumstances around the landing and invasion from the galaxy at large, allowing Palpatine to push things forward according to his own time table.
Sidious wants the Trade Federation investigated and their planetary invasion exposed to discredit the current Chancellor.
All documents of surrender are signed under duress. The crisis is Valorum's inability to protect the peace and the rights of member planets. The treaty is meaningless to Sidious, except as a way of paralyzing the Senate (which he does anyway), but crucial for the Trade Federation who want to protect their claims to all their war gains. Sidious has to pretend to care (and help) in order to keep the Trade Federation on track.
What is the Queen never tells anyone that the treaty was signed under duress? To the Senate this would just be a legal occupation of the planet and they would move on to other things.
Uh no. Word gets out just fine and even without the Jedi there's no way the whole galaxy would have ignored Naboo suddenly going silent in the middle of a crisis. The blocking of legal remedies in the Senate are what causes enough outrage to propel Sidious into Valorum's office without the treaty ever being signed. If Amidala hadn't escaped, he would have made an impassioned speech in the Senate about the suffering of his people and his martyred queen or something similar, to muster sympathy. With Amidala there in person, he simply tricked her into doing the work for him.
It was the invasion of Naboo which caused to the current Chancellor to step down. And don't tell me that a loss of communications to Naboo could be used as evidence for an invasion of the planet. If that was the case you'd think the Queen would bring it up when the Chancellor asked for evidence.

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2010-02-03 08:11am

stormthebeaches wrote:
Sorry but according to the film it was only the Queen's word that brought that made the Senate aware of the invasion. The rest of the council acted in disbelief at the idea of an invasion and no one mentioned the blocked communications as evidence. When the Senate asked the Queen for evidence of an invasion why didn't she say: "Check the communications to Naboo. They have been blocked. That should be all the evidence that you need."

Even the word of two Jedi and two MIA pilots wasn't enough to convince the Senate that there was an invasion. It seems that the Republic government needs an absurd amount of evidence to prove that an invasion happens.
No, all that proves is that they didn't think the Trade Federation would actually invade and weren't mentally prepared to accept it. The invasion had only just occurred a few days ago, at most. The Trade Federation's attempted assassination of the Chancellor's ambassadors, Jedi Knights who they would have surrendered to if they hadn't been pushed into trying to kill them by a Sith Lord, was hardly the expected result. In fact, it only proves that the Senate had a very good idea of how the Trade Federation would react, if they weren't under Sith influence. If you want to argue that they would never have come to that conclusion, go ahead. I look forward to seeing you dig yourself even deeper.

Sidious wants the Trade Federation investigated and their planetary invasion exposed to discredit the current Chancellor.
The invasion will get exposed anyway and he doesn't need the Trade Federation exposed. Palpatine wants Valorum to appear ineffectual in a crisis and Naboo to appear sympathetic so he can become Supreme Chancellor.

What is the Queen never tells anyone that the treaty was signed under duress? To the Senate this would just be a legal occupation of the planet and they would move on to other things.
The treaty is irrelevant to Palpatine. It's a fucking surrender document, they're all signed under duress. Do you think the Japanese weren't under duress when they surrendered in WW2? It's the invasion that matters to Sidious, not the Trade Federation's attempts to cover their ass afterwords.

It was the invasion of Naboo which caused to the current Chancellor to step down. And don't tell me that a loss of communications to Naboo could be used as evidence for an invasion of the planet. If that was the case you'd think the Queen would bring it up when the Chancellor asked for evidence.
So Naboo stops communicating and no one will investigate? A prolonged communications blackout at a planet that's at the center of a major political crisis will cause no ripples with anyone whatsoever? Please. Of course they desire proof and a communication blackout is strongly suggestive, but not direct proof. Invasion is a radical action and the Trade Federation and their political allies will deny and obfuscate the situation. They want as much solid evidence as they can get. Amidala's accusations are heard and believed by the Senate, so obviously there is sufficient evidence to convince a large number of Senators. Only legal and bureaucractic maneuvers prevent the Senate from acting.

The discovery of the invasion is inevitable and that's what will give Palpatine power. Palpatine doesn't care if it comes in three days, five days, or five weeks. He waited nearly a decade before unleashing the Clone Wars. He's prepared to wait. The Trade Federation, on the other hand, must believe he's a powerful ally and follow his instructions so they'll behave like the perfect patsies. So he unleashes Maul, a purely completely disposable weapon to stop Amidala who isn't important because Sidious will be using his abilities to manipulate the Senate not to protect his Trade Federation pawns but to use the crisis to put himself in the Supreme Chancellor's office.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

User avatar
Oskuro
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2698
Joined: 2005-05-25 06:10am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Oskuro » 2010-02-03 09:24am

Dooey Jo wrote:Yes, let's use this good, well thought out point to... "analyse" a few characters. <snip>
Don't oversimplify things. The clear example of how this method is useful is when comparing two characters that would seem otherwise identical if you only resorted to the setting. It brings out the notion that for a character in any story to be three-dimensional, there must be more to them than their profession or their race, this is just like all those fantasy stories where many characters are defined as their race (elfs and dwarves generally) and there's little more characterization besides that.

Using this method, we can differentiate between Qui Gon, Obi Wan, Mace Windu or Yoda, even when all of them are Jedi Masters, and that's the point of character strength, to have them be memorable beyond the setting they are presented in.

Now, again, I agree that the examples in the video were chosen for humour, and were skewed towards making TPM look worse, but that doesn't mean the analysis idea is bad. In fact, I'm suspecting this RedLetterMedia guy has some actual filmmaking education by the way he explains some things, but he also comes across as a fan, and a heavily biased one.
unsigned

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-03 09:26am

No, all that proves is that they didn't think the Trade Federation would actually invade and weren't mentally prepared to accept it. The invasion had only just occurred a few days ago, at most. The Trade Federation's attempted assassination of the Chancellor's ambassadors, Jedi Knights who they would have surrendered to if they hadn't been pushed into trying to kill them by a Sith Lord, was hardly the expected result. In fact, it only proves that the Senate had a very good idea of how the Trade Federation would react, if they weren't under Sith influence. If you want to argue that they would never have come to that conclusion, go ahead. I look forward to seeing you dig yourself even deeper.
So why didn't the Queen of Naboo bring up the lack of communication with Naboo as evidence. Or bring in the two Jedi knights as evidence? Fact is, the actions Sidious took endangered his own plan. What if the Jedi decided that it was two dangerous to run the blockade and instead decided to resolve the situation on the ground? The follow the plan they executed at the end of the movie and resolve the crises right then and there?

You say that the Trade Federation was in danger of surrendering to the Jedi so Sidious ordered them to kill the Jedi. Well, there is a huge difference between kill the Jedi and give in to their demands. Sidious should have assured the Trade Federation that since the Jedi were only here as ambassadors they would not take violet action against the Trade Federation unless provoked. He should have then told the Trade Federation to tell that Jedi that there would be no negotiations and that they would invade the planet. The jedi would probably rush back to Corrasant to tell the Senate about this, thus giving Palpatine the crises he wants to disgrace the current Chancellor.
The invasion will get exposed anyway and he doesn't need the Trade Federation exposed. Palpatine wants Valorum to appear ineffectual in a crisis and Naboo to appear sympathetic so he can become Supreme Chancellor.
Yes I know that. The problem is that Sidious is taking many unnecessary steps that only serve to further complicate his plan and increase it's chance of failure. The best plans are usually kept simple for a reason.
The treaty is irrelevant to Palpatine. It's a fucking surrender document, they're all signed under duress. Do you think the Japanese weren't under duress when they surrendered in WW2? It's the invasion that matters to Sidious, not the Trade Federation's attempts to cover their ass afterwords.
And how will forcing the Naboo government to sign a surrender document legalize the invasion? The Trade Federation wanted her to sign the document to legalize the invasion, not to make her surrender.
So Naboo stops communicating and no one will investigate? A prolonged communications blackout at a planet that's at the center of a major political crisis will cause no ripples with anyone whatsoever? Please. Of course they desire proof and a communication blackout is strongly suggestive, but not direct proof. Invasion is a radical action and the Trade Federation and their political allies will deny and obfuscate the situation. They want as much solid evidence as they can get. Amidala's accusations are heard and believed by the Senate, so obviously there is sufficient evidence to convince a large number of Senators. Only legal and bureaucractic maneuvers prevent the Senate from acting.
What about the word of the Jedi? Why did she not bring them in? As for the communication blackout, I am aware that it would eventually come to the Senate's attention. The problem is that the longer it takes for the invasion to reach the Senate's attention the more likely it is that something will go wrong. What is the Trade Federation leaves Naboo (they lose their nerve, have an outbreak of the conscience, or have a more pressing need for their military elsewhere)? What if the people of Naboo manage to fight off the invasion by themselves before the Senate hears about it? The longer it takes for the Senate to hear about the council the more likely it is that something could go wrong. Sidious would want the Senate to hear about the invasion ASAP.

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2010-02-03 09:53am

stormthebeaches wrote: So why didn't the Queen of Naboo bring up the lack of communication with Naboo as evidence. Or bring in the two Jedi knights as evidence?
She's didn't think of it at the time? She certainly managed to easily convince people off screen because clearly huge amounts of the Senate found her convincing.
Fact is, the actions Sidious took endangered his own plan. What if the Jedi decided that it was two dangerous to run the blockade and instead decided to resolve the situation on the ground? The follow the plan they executed at the end of the movie and resolve the crises right then and there?
Except that plan wouldn't work because the rest of the Trade Federation fleet would still be there.
You say that the Trade Federation was in danger of surrendering to the Jedi so Sidious ordered them to kill the Jedi.
I don't say it. The movie does. They contact Sidious immediately and tell him Jedi are on the way and the game is up.
Well, there is a huge difference between kill the Jedi and give in to their demands. Sidious should have assured the Trade Federation that since the Jedi were only here as ambassadors they would not take violet action against the Trade Federation unless provoked. He should have then told the Trade Federation to tell that Jedi that there would be no negotiations and that they would invade the planet. The jedi would probably rush back to Corrasant to tell the Senate about this, thus giving Palpatine the crises he wants to disgrace the current Chancellor.
Sure, he could have done that. If he trusted the Trade Federation officers who were ready to surrender to the Jedi before they landed on their ship, to show not only spine but open defiance while being in the same room as the Jedi without Sidious to hold their leash. It'll be a very cold day in hell before I would take that bet.


Yes I know that. The problem is that Sidious is taking many unnecessary steps that only serve to further complicate his plan and increase it's chance of failure. The best plans are usually kept simple for a reason.
At no point have I argued that Sidious's plans were perfect. They get him killed at the end of ROTJ and put him in considerable and at least somewhat unnecessary jeopardy in ROTS.
And how will forcing the Naboo government to sign a surrender document legalize the invasion? The Trade Federation wanted her to sign the document to legalize the invasion, not to make her surrender.
They want the document to legitimize the transfer of power, i.e. to keep their war gains. They're relying on Sidious to keep the Senate from condemning their invasion and he, of course, is only interested in keeping them around to get his ass into Chancellor's chair and start the war that is going to make him emperor.
What about the word of the Jedi? Why did she not bring them in? As for the communication blackout, I am aware that it would eventually come to the Senate's attention. The problem is that the longer it takes for the invasion to reach the Senate's attention the more likely it is that something will go wrong. What is the Trade Federation leaves Naboo (they lose their nerve, have an outbreak of the conscience, or have a more pressing need for their military elsewhere)? What if the people of Naboo manage to fight off the invasion by themselves before the Senate hears about it? The longer it takes for the Senate to hear about the council the more likely it is that something could go wrong. Sidious would want the Senate to hear about the invasion ASAP.
Except Palpatine knows all about the invasion and is the senator for Naboo. He can release evidence that he's "just acquired" any time he wants and it suits his purpose to allow the Trade Federation time to get a firm grip (thus committing themselves and guaranteeing a prolonged crisis despite the fact that his patsies are complete cowards) and commit a few atrocities (bonus points if he's the one that suggests them in the first place) to maximize impact.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-03 10:48am

I can see that a point by point rebuttle is getting us no where so I will lay out all my grievances right here.

I am well aware that the plan involves getting the Trade Federation to invading Naboo so the current Chancellor looks bad and Palpatine gets into power. The problem is that Sidious does many things that decrease the plans chance of success throughout the entire movie.

1. Ordering the Trade Federation to kill the Jedi. Yes they are scared of the Jedi but you don't have to kill them. Palpatine should have said: "Relax, the Jedi are here as ambassadors so they will not take violet action unless in self defence. Tell the Jedi that there will be no negotiations and that you plan to invade the planet, since they are here as ambassadors and not soldiers they will have to go back to Corrasant to inform the Senate. Your scared of the Jedi? Then communicate through a hologram so they can't hurt you or use their mind tricks on you."

2. A communication blockade. Again, Sidious wants the Senate to know about the crises so to can humiliate the current Chancellor. He should have told the Trade Federation "The Senate is full of spineless cowards. Make your invasion known to them. Once the Senate see's that you are willing to use military force to achieve your goals they will back down and cave in to your demands. Oh, and don't bother blocking communications, that will just let the Naboo know that you are going to invade."

Sidious would want the Senate to know about the invasion ASAP. The longer it takes for them to figure out that an invasion has happened the more likely it is that something could gone wrong. What is the Trade Federation had a change of heart? Or simply lost their nerve? What if pirates started to take advantage of the Trade Federation's new vulnerability (since a large portion of their military is at Naboo) and started attack Federation property. This causes the Federation to decide that the invasion of Naboo isn't worth it and sends their military assets to more important tasks. What would Sidious do then?

3. The Trade Federation wanted the treaty signed to legalize the invasion. This was stated several times in the movie. If the invasion was legalized then there would be no crises to humiliate the Chancellor with. Plan failed.
She's didn't think of it at the time? She certainly managed to easily convince people off screen because clearly huge amounts of the Senate found her convincing.
I'm not buying. If I was told that an independent team would be sent to investigate the claims of invasion my immediate response would be "No need, I have two Jedi right here who saw the whole thing." And why do we know that huge amounts of the Senate found her convincing? It was only her ONE VOTE of no confidence that caused the Senate to elect a new Chancellor after all. I always assumed that Palpatine was elected Chancellor due to some back door deals combined with his political talent, rather than being viewed as a man most capable of helping Naboo.

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2010-02-03 11:35am

stormthebeaches wrote:
1. Ordering the Trade Federation to kill the Jedi. Yes they are scared of the Jedi but you don't have to kill them. Palpatine should have said: "Relax, the Jedi are here as ambassadors so they will not take violet action unless in self defence. Tell the Jedi that there will be no negotiations and that you plan to invade the planet, since they are here as ambassadors and not soldiers they will have to go back to Corrasant to inform the Senate. Your scared of the Jedi? Then communicate through a hologram so they can't hurt you or use their mind tricks on you."
The Trade Federation officials were ready to surrender the game when the Jedi arrive. Only an idiot would trust them to defy the Jedi without supervision, which is why Palpatine forces them to order the Jedi's deaths. Living Jedi do not help the plan in any way and have come to investigate and potentially unravel the plan. They aren't going to go away just because the Trade Federation asks them to. Palpatine isn't stupid enough to assume the Jedi will be passive observers. Dead Jedi escalate the crisis.

There is literally no upside to not killing the Jedi and plenty of downside.
2. A communication blockade. Again, Sidious wants the Senate to know about the crises so to can humiliate the current Chancellor. He should have told the Trade Federation "The Senate is full of spineless cowards. Make your invasion known to them. Once the Senate see's that you are willing to use military force to achieve your goals they will back down and cave in to your demands. Oh, and don't bother blocking communications, that will just let the Naboo know that you are going to invade."
The communication's blockade is important in that it makes Palpatine the only voice of Naboo, allowing him to manipulate the crisis without interference from the rest of Naboo's government. When Amidala shows up, he's forced to manipulate her into serving his plans, which he's able to do.
Sidious would want the Senate to know about the invasion ASAP. The longer it takes for them to figure out that an invasion has happened the more likely it is that something could gone wrong. What is the Trade Federation had a change of heart? Or simply lost their nerve? What if pirates started to take advantage of the Trade Federation's new vulnerability (since a large portion of their military is at Naboo) and started attack Federation property. This causes the Federation to decide that the invasion of Naboo isn't worth it and sends their military assets to more important tasks. What would Sidious do then?
Is a large portion of their military at Naboo? They've got a blockade yes, but the Trade Federation certainly has many ships. The longer the Trade Federation is on Naboo, the greater their commitment. They can't just abandon a widely spread droid army that is searching and policing the entire planet. The longer they're there, the more war crimes they'll commit (like using starvation to compel submission) and the greater the outrage when those crimes are discovered.
3. The Trade Federation wanted the treaty signed to legalize the invasion. This was stated several times in the movie. If the invasion was legalized then there would be no crises to humiliate the Chancellor with. Plan failed.
Did you watch the fucking movie? I ask this because the Trade Federation never got their treaty, but Palpatine did become Supreme Chancellor. Plan succeeded.
I'm not buying. If I was told that an independent team would be sent to investigate the claims of invasion my immediate response would be "No need, I have two Jedi right here who saw the whole thing."
That's your response, not the response of thousands of senators, some of whom are distrustful of the Jedi order. And they clearly presented enough evidence to get broad support in the Senate.
And why do we know that huge amounts of the Senate found her convincing? It was only her ONE VOTE of no confidence that caused the Senate to elect a new Chancellor after all. I always assumed that Palpatine was elected Chancellor due to some back door deals combined with his political talent, rather than being viewed as a man most capable of helping Naboo.
The movie clearly shows she enjoyed large amounts of support when she was speaking in the Senate. It wasn't until the the vote was blocked with legalistic proceedings that she called for the vote of no confidence, which carried because of the amount of support she had.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

Helo
Redshirt
Posts: 13
Joined: 2009-10-13 08:57am

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Helo » 2010-02-03 01:00pm

Even Bush's justifications for his crimes are better than "I forced this guy to sign this treaty at gunpoint". If one country launched an unprovoked invasion of another country and forced the government of the invaded country to sign a treaty legalizing the invasion at gunpoint no sane legal system on the planet would take that treaty seriously. The Trade Federation might as well have forged the Queen's signature.
Exacly this has been done to my country in 1968 when Soviet union army took our republic. No protests from any one. Government singed the treaty. And in 1938 France, Britain and Russia sold us to Nazis. So it can happen and it has happened.

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-03 01:46pm

The Trade Federation officials were ready to surrender the game when the Jedi arrive. Only an idiot would trust them to defy the Jedi without supervision, which is why Palpatine forces them to order the Jedi's deaths. Living Jedi do not help the plan in any way and have come to investigate and potentially unravel the plan. They aren't going to go away just because the Trade Federation asks them to. Palpatine isn't stupid enough to assume the Jedi will be passive observers. Dead Jedi escalate the crisis.

There is literally no upside to not killing the Jedi and plenty of downside.
So Palpatine doesn't trust them to defy the Jedi, but he trusts them to KILL the Jedi? :wtf:

And no, the Jedi have not come to investigate anything. They have arrived as ambassadors, not investigators. And ambassadors have to be passive observes, if they don't then it defeats the whole purpose of ambassadors.

And if the Jedi do investigate, what are they going to find out? That the Trade Federation is having its strings pulled by a mysterious figure? I don't recall the Trade Federation knowing who Sidious was at this point. Besides, Palpatine's plan revolves around some kind of investigation being conducted into the matter. Since a Communication blockade is not sufficient evidence for an invasion, Palpatine must have been counting on some kind of investigation to discover the invasion.

An invasion of a planet is enough of a crises as it is. You don't need to add two dead Jedi to that. Especially when those two Jedi are useful for telling the Senate about the invasion. You know, the thing that Palpy needs to humiliate the Chancellor.
The communication's blockade is important in that it makes Palpatine the only voice of Naboo, allowing him to manipulate the crisis without interference from the rest of Naboo's government. When Amidala shows up, he's forced to manipulate her into serving his plans, which he's able to do.
And why is it so important for Palpy to be the only voice of Naboo? His whole plan revolves around the Naboo crises making the Chancellor look like a fool. Why does he need to be the only voice for Naboo?
Is a large portion of their military at Naboo? They've got a blockade yes, but the Trade Federation certainly has many ships. The longer the Trade Federation is on Naboo, the greater their commitment. They can't just abandon a widely spread droid army that is searching and policing the entire planet. The longer they're there, the more war crimes they'll commit (like using starvation to compel submission) and the greater the outrage when those crimes are discovered.
The Trade Federation is a private company and its military forces are for what I assume are security related matters. Being that they are run by profit motivated individuals it is unlikely that the Trade Federation will have military surpluses lying around. Those ships that they used have to have come from somewhere and the area they came from will now be less defended as a result.

Also, we have no evidence that the droid army is using mass starvation or committing any atrocities (apart from putting people into concentration camps). This is a army of robots after all, and it is unlikely that they will be committing crimes like a human army would. Besides, if there is a communication blockade these atrocities are not going to be found out any time soon. Finally, a private company using robot soldiers is very different from a nation using human soldiers. The private company won't have to deal with the political bullshit a nation would ("if we pull out now our soldiers will have died for nothing!"). Once the Trade Federation suspects that the invasion and occupation of Naboo is not worth it is very likely that they will just up and leave. The longer they stay the more likely this is to happen. Therefore Sidious would want the Senate to know about the invasion ASAP.
Did you watch the fucking movie? I ask this because the Trade Federation never got their treaty, but Palpatine did become Supreme Chancellor. Plan succeeded.
The plan succeeded despite his actions, not because of them. If the Trade Federation got their treaty Palpatine would find it a lot more difficult to become Chancellor.
That's your response, not the response of thousands of senators, some of whom are distrustful of the Jedi order. And they clearly presented enough evidence to get broad support in the Senate.
Where in the movie did it say that the Senators are distrustful of the Jedi order? Considering that the Jedi were trusted enough to be sent as ambassadors to resolve a major crises I imagined that they were held in quite high regard during the time of TPM.
The movie clearly shows she enjoyed large amounts of support when she was speaking in the Senate. It wasn't until the the vote was blocked with legalistic proceedings that she called for the vote of no confidence, which carried because of the amount of support she had.
Now your just making stuff up, there was never end blocked vote. There was no vote that was blocked by legalistic proceedings. The Queen announced that the Trade Federation had invaded her homeworld. The Trade Federation said that the claims were outrageous and that she had no proof. The Chancellor said that he would send a commission team to investigate the claims. The Queen then declares a vote of no confidence and it turns out that her ONE VOTE is enough to start an election for a new Chancellor.

We also never see how much support the Queen had. There are no scenes that show the opinion of the rest of the Senate at all. They all remain quite throughout the whole affair until the Queen declares her vote of no confidence. Then they start shouting incoherent stuff.

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-03 01:53pm

Exacly this has been done to my country in 1968 when Soviet union army took our republic. No protests from any one. Government singed the treaty. And in 1938 France, Britain and Russia sold us to Nazis. So it can happen and it has happened.
My history may be off but wasn't the justification for that invasion CIA action? The KGB planted false evidence that US backed right wing groups were were going to topple the current government. Besides, the USSR got aware with that simply because it is was powerful. No country would risk nuclear war over Czechoslovakia.

User avatar
Kingmaker
Jedi Knight
Posts: 534
Joined: 2009-12-10 03:35am

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Kingmaker » 2010-02-03 02:08pm

There was no vote that was blocked by legalistic proceedings. The Queen announced that the Trade Federation had invaded her homeworld. The Trade Federation said that the claims were outrageous and that she had no proof. The Chancellor said that he would send a commission team to investigate the claims.


She called a vote of no confidence because the Senate was bogged down in debate (the Trade Federation Senator demanded that time be taken to sent an investigative commission to Naboo) and Palpatine persuaded her that calling for a vote of no confidence in Valorum would speed up the response.
The Queen then declares a vote of no confidence and it turns out that her ONE VOTE is enough to start an election for a new Chancellor.
Do you know how a vote of no confidence even works? Amidala called a vote of no confidence, the motion got seconded (or whatever the Senate procedure is), and then they had a vote where Valorum lost and was forced to resign. We just didn't see that because watching all eighty jillion senators vote would be terminally boring.
Then they start shouting incoherent stuff.
They're shouting "Vote now", suggesting that Valorum isn't really that popular.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2010-02-03 02:51pm

stormthebeaches wrote:
So Palpatine doesn't trust them to defy the Jedi, but he trusts them to KILL the Jedi? :wtf:
How dishonest of you. We both know the Trade Federation leadership was terrified of meeting the Jedi in person but confident of the ability of their droids to murder them at a distance. Which is exactly what they did.
And no, the Jedi have not come to investigate anything. They have arrived as ambassadors, not investigators. And ambassadors have to be passive observes, if they don't then it defeats the whole purpose of ambassadors.
Yeah, because Jedi never investigate anything. Qui-Gon was suspicious about the proceedings right off that bat. There's this little thing called the Force that the Jedi are sensitive to.
And if the Jedi do investigate, what are they going to find out? That the Trade Federation is having its strings pulled by a mysterious figure? I don't recall the Trade Federation knowing who Sidious was at this point.
They called him Lord Sidious and called him a Sith Lord when they talked about him and Maul.
Besides, Palpatine's plan revolves around some kind of investigation being conducted into the matter. Since a Communication blockade is not sufficient evidence for an invasion, Palpatine must have been counting on some kind of investigation to discover the invasion.
The invasion hasn't happened yet genius. The Trade Federation are ready to throw in the towel the moment they learn that there are Jedi are on the way.
An invasion of a planet is enough of a crises as it is. You don't need to add two dead Jedi to that. Especially when those two Jedi are useful for telling the Senate about the invasion. You know, the thing that Palpy needs to humiliate the Chancellor.
Except they're not necessary and alive they're a problem because it take Qui-Gon about five minutes to realize something really wrong is going on.


And why is it so important for Palpy to be the only voice of Naboo? His whole plan revolves around the Naboo crises making the Chancellor look like a fool. Why does he need to be the only voice for Naboo?
So he can manipulate the crisis, dethrone Valorum, and accrue the power without the interference of the Queen or the rest of the Naboo government which might not undercut Valorum. You know, the whole point of the damn plan? Fortunately for Palpatine he's able to save the plan by manipulating Amidala into serving his plan.

The Trade Federation is a private company and its military forces are for what I assume are security related matters. Being that they are run by profit motivated individuals it is unlikely that the Trade Federation will have military surpluses lying around. Those ships that they used have to have come from somewhere and the area they came from will now be less defended as a result.
It has a private army and Senate representation. It's not a mere private company.
Also, we have no evidence that the droid army is using mass starvation or committing any atrocities (apart from putting people into concentration camps).
We have Amidala's communications home and the general douchebaggery of the Trade Federation.
This is a army of robots after all, and it is unlikely that they will be committing crimes like a human army would.
An robot army of robots programmed to obey their masters is more, not less likely to obey orders that are war crimes.
Besides, if there is a communication blockade these atrocities are not going to be found out any time soon. Finally, a private company using robot soldiers is very different from a nation using human soldiers. The private company won't have to deal with the political bullshit a nation would ("if we pull out now our soldiers will have died for nothing!"). Once the Trade Federation suspects that the invasion and occupation of Naboo is not worth it is very likely that they will just up and leave. The longer they stay the more likely this is to happen. Therefore Sidious would want the Senate to know about the invasion ASAP.
Bullshit. The atrocities will come out when its convenient for Palpatine. The longer the Trade Federation is there, the more they have invested in the operation and the harder and more costly it is to up and leave. More is at stake than just Naboo, the incident was sparked by larger matters of galactic trade and taxation. They're aim is not just to grab Naboo, but to shape Republic trade policy. They're playing for big stakes and they believe Sidious can deliver. And its in Sidious interest to push when he thinks he won't merely displace Valorum as ineffective, but when there's sufficient sympathy for Naboo to push him into office. And that takes time to build.

The plan succeeded despite his actions, not because of them. If the Trade Federation got their treaty Palpatine would find it a lot more difficult to become Chancellor.
Support that assertion. The treaty only helps the Trade Federation if the Senate legitimizes the invasion. This isn't going to happen as Palpatine's plan is to use the outrage over the invasion to propel himself into the Supreme Chancellor's office. Palpatine unleashes Maul to retrieve her, but in doing so only tars the Trade Federation in the eyes of the Jedi and Senate and helping set up Separatists and the Clone War.

As for the value of Jedi testimony, that's an irrelevant side issue over what evidence was considered more important in debates we never see. There's abundant evidence of a war an invasion any time someone chooses to investigate or Palpatine wants to drop it in the Senate's lap.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-03 03:43pm

How dishonest of you. We both know the Trade Federation leadership was terrified of meeting the Jedi in person but confident of the ability of their droids to murder them at a distance. Which is exactly what they did.
You know I didn't mean that the Trade Federation leadership would personally murder then so don't accuse me lying. And the Trade Federation leadership could easily meet with the Jedi over a hologram, it doesn't take much courage to do that. Or they could send a droid to talk for them.
Yeah, because Jedi never investigate anything. Qui-Gon was suspicious about the proceedings right off that bat. There's this little thing called the Force that the Jedi are sensitive to.
The Jedi were sent as AMBASSADORS. Ambassadors cannot take an active role in the events otherwise that would defeat the whole point of ambassadors. An ambassador is suppose to provide you with a link a nation/government but at the same time be a non-combatant. The idea is that you can talk to the entity through the ambassador but at the same time trust the ambassador not to try anything. It's not that the Jedi don't intervene, its that these Jedi were sent as ambassadors so they can't intervene.
The invasion hasn't happened yet genius. The Trade Federation are ready to throw in the towel the moment they learn that there are Jedi are on the way.
Sidious should have reminded the Trade Federation that since the Jedi are here as ambassadors they cannot actively intervene in anything except self defence.
Except they're not necessary and alive they're a problem because it take Qui-Gon about five minutes to realize something really wrong is going on.
The something wrong being a planned Trade Federation invasion. Unless if your telling me that Qui-Gon can sense Sidious through a hologram whilst the likes of Yoda couldn't sense him even when they were in the same room as him.
So he can manipulate the crisis, dethrone Valorum, and accrue the power without the interference of the Queen or the rest of the Naboo government which might not undercut Valorum. You know, the whole point of the damn plan? Fortunately for Palpatine he's able to save the plan by manipulating Amidala into serving his plan.
The crisis does not need to be manipulated to that extent. He just needs the Trade Federation to invade Naboo so he can denounce the Chancellor as a fool for letting it happen. He then declares a vote of no confidence and gets himself elected.
It has a private army and Senate representation. It's not a mere private company.
A private company can have a private army, look at the East Indian trading company. Maybe it was brought into the Senate to defend itself against the charges? If it's not a private company then what is it? Part of the government? Another Republic member state? Sure wish I knew what the Trade Federation was.
We have Amidala's communications home and the general douchebaggery of the Trade Federation.
The only thing we know the Trade Federation is doing is forcing people into concentration camps. There are no references of using starvation as a tactic. For all we know the "suffering" the people of Naboo are going through IS being forced into a concentration camp. Being forced into a concentration camp is not nice but is it really the something that will whip up the Senate into war mongering fury? We don't even know what the conditions to the concentration camps are like.
An robot army of robots programmed to obey their masters is more, not less likely to obey orders that are war crimes.
The Trade Federation leadership does not have the motivation to order their robot armies to commit mass murder on a subjugated civilian population. Most of the atrocities committed by an occupying army usually come from isolated groups of soldiers committing crimes. A robot army is less likely to do the kind of brutal things a human army would, like looting, raping or taking out their frustrations on civilian targets.
Bullshit. The atrocities will come out when its convenient for Palpatine. The longer the Trade Federation is there, the more they have invested in the operation and the harder and more costly it is to up and leave. More is at stake than just Naboo, the incident was sparked by larger matters of galactic trade and taxation. They're aim is not just to grab Naboo, but to shape Republic trade policy. They're playing for big stakes and they believe Sidious can deliver. And its in Sidious interest to push when he thinks he won't merely displace Valorum as ineffective, but when there's sufficient sympathy for Naboo to push him into office. And that takes time to build.
How will Palpatine be able to control when the atrocities come out since the Trade Federation has blocked communications and all physical travel? Besides, its quite unnecessary for Palpatine to control when the atrocities come out. Tell the Federation "To open about the invasion and your willingness to use military force. It will cause the spineless Republic to cave in to your demands" then announce to the Senate "Our idiot Chancellor let my homeworld be invaded. I declare a vote of no confidence!" and use the sympathy of having his home world invaded to run for Chancellor.
Support that assertion. The treaty only helps the Trade Federation if the Senate legitimizes the invasion. This isn't going to happen as Palpatine's plan is to use the outrage over the invasion to propel himself into the Supreme Chancellor's office. Palpatine unleashes Maul to retrieve her, but in doing so only tars the Trade Federation in the eyes of the Jedi and Senate and helping set up Separatists and the Clone War.
Alright, I'll conceed this point.

stormthebeaches
Padawan Learner
Posts: 331
Joined: 2009-10-24 01:13pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by stormthebeaches » 2010-02-03 03:53pm

She called a vote of no confidence because the Senate was bogged down in debate (the Trade Federation Senator demanded that time be taken to sent an investigative commission to Naboo) and Palpatine persuaded her that calling for a vote of no confidence in Valorum would speed up the response.
Do you know how a vote of no confidence even works? Amidala called a vote of no confidence, the motion got seconded (or whatever the Senate procedure is), and then they had a vote where Valorum lost and was forced to resign. We just didn't see that because watching all eighty jillion senators vote would be terminally boring.
So any Senator can call for a vote of no confidence when a Senate decision does not got their way? That is a really stupid system that is wide open for abuse. I wonder how many votes of no confidence the Senate has to deal with every day.
They're shouting "Vote now", suggesting that Valorum isn't really that popular.
Ahh, not sure how I missed that.

User avatar
Losonti Tokash
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2916
Joined: 2004-09-29 03:02pm

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Losonti Tokash » 2010-02-03 04:08pm

stormthebeaches wrote:So any Senator can call for a vote of no confidence when a Senate decision does not got their way? That is a really stupid system that is wide open for abuse. I wonder how many votes of no confidence the Senate has to deal with every day.
And yet somehow Britain, Canada, Australia, and a shitload of other countries with parliamentary systems get along fine. Strange.

User avatar
adam_grif
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2755
Joined: 2009-12-19 08:27am
Location: Tasmania, Australia

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by adam_grif » 2010-02-03 04:35pm

Kingmaker wrote: Do you know how a vote of no confidence even works? Amidala called a vote of no confidence, the motion got seconded (or whatever the Senate procedure is), and then they had a vote where Valorum lost and was forced to resign. We just didn't see that because watching all eighty jillion senators vote would be terminally boring.
A movie gets to a point where putting things like that in can't really detract any further from it.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'

Channel72
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2068
Joined: 2010-02-03 05:28pm
Location: New York

Re: ReadLetterMedia reviews Avatar

Post by Channel72 » 2010-02-03 05:47pm

Imperial Overlord wrote: The Trade Federation officials were ready to surrender the game when the Jedi arrive. Only an idiot would trust them to defy the Jedi without supervision, which is why Palpatine forces them to order the Jedi's deaths. Living Jedi do not help the plan in any way and have come to investigate and potentially unravel the plan. They aren't going to go away just because the Trade Federation asks them to. Palpatine isn't stupid enough to assume the Jedi will be passive observers. Dead Jedi escalate the crisis.

There is literally no upside to not killing the Jedi and plenty of downside.
Half the things you say here are based on your own assumptions and inferences; none of this is stated or even implied in the actual movie. You have no way of knowing whether or not the Jedi ambassadors would willingly leave or not if the Trade Federation told them to. The problem is, you are arguing as if the point of contention here is whether or not the events in Phantom Menace are plausible in universe, when in fact the point of contention is whether the actual writing is solid. The fact that you have to make all these inferences about the motivations behind Palpatine's various actions demonstrates that the actual script itself is very muddled, which is really the whole point that stormthebeaches, as well as the RedLetterMedia review is trying to make.

The invasion of Naboo is the whole fucking plot of the movie – all the stakes, all the danger, all the suspense that the audience is supposed to feel rests on this invasion. Throughout the movie, we have to watch countless scenes of Trade Federation battle droids marching around, and various Trade Federation officials threatening people, etc., and yet there is literally no fucking suspense because nobody's goals or motivations are compelling. Why the fuck is the Trade Federation even invading Naboo, and why should we (the audience) be nervous that their plan will succeed? We don't even know specifically what they hope to gain. We can only infer that Palpatine promised them something, or that maybe invading Naboo will somehow benefit them financially, or whatever. The fact that you or any TPM apologist can infer actual motivations behind all of this is beside the point. The point is that the movie itself utterly fails to get the audience really involved in any of this shit because everything is so unclear, and the entire invasion plot basically amounts to nothing more than a convoluted way for Palpatine to get a promotion.

So basically we have a movie with relatively boring characters fighting bad guys who barely have any motivation, and we don't really know what the consequences will be if the good guys fail. That's why anyone who says the Original Trilogy is just as flawed as the Prequels is totally full of shit. The motivation behind everyone's actions in the original trilogy is pretty fucking clear, with a few exceptions, and the stakes are generally pretty compelling.

Post Reply