Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Havok]

No, I feel the same way. I thought it was pretty pathetic how they got someone as cool as Samuel L Jackson in the film and all he does is talk for a bit.

Perhaps it is urban legend, but I heard Samuel L. Jackson pretty much begged Lucas to be in a SW film, even going as far to say he'd be a Stormtrooper and uncredited if that's what it took.

Nope. SLJ has confirmed the shit out of this. I've heard it a few times, always a little different, but the funniest thing he said was that he told GL that he would play 'a fucking slave' just to be in the movie.

[Elfdart]

Here's some weirdness: the call for no-confidence was called because the chancellor wanted to send a commission to see if the Queen was lying about the invasion.

Why the fuck didn't they just call in the Jedi, whom the chancellor already sent and saw the whole thing - and he talked to them personally when they got back - to testify about the situation?

Palpatine's plan didn't work because it was brilliant, or adapted well to changing situations. It worked only because the writers wanted it to work.

It's worse than that. Even if she didn't have the Jedi to testify, there still was absolutely no need for a No-confidence vote. In fact that entire part of the plot was wholly unnecessary because it had no impact on the events at Naboo. Let's say the Jedi aren't there, and she decides to avoid calling a no-confidence vote, what happens?

Well, she goes back to Naboo with the Chancellor's commission.... which is exactly what ended up happening, minus the commission! In the movie Naboo was won back from the trade-feds with NO help from the republic other than a pair of Jedi acting semi-autonomously. The No Confidence vote did absolutely nothing to help her cause, and actually removed an entirely valid avenue she could have taken to get help with Naboo, at no additional cost because it involved making a trip she was already going to make in the first place!

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ but you are stupid!

Was Amidala's decision portrayed as a wise one? NO! It was a desperate act of a young leader in way over her head. That's the tragedy (correct use of this term) of it: She was trying to save her planet but ended up voting out a decent, but weak and ineffective leader and putting a monster in the office. Like many of the decisions the heroes make in the Prequels, it's a tragic mistake. If they don't fuck up and Palpatine doesn't take over, then there's no Evil Empire for episodes 4-6, now is there?

I suppose they could have made Padme evil and part of Palpatine's plan from the beginning, and she was deliberately trying to fuck things up...

There is literally no reason why she should have made the no-confidence vote other than the plot dictating she should. She didn't ask for the testimony of the Jedi first, she didn't accept a commission going back to Naboo with her which would have helped immeasurably as it would have provided an immediate official verification of the alleged Trade Fed abuses. Exactly what did the no confidence vote do to help her? Did the newly elected Palpatine send an army to help them? Did he order the Trade feds to stop the blockade? No. Instead she throws the one person offering to help her directly under the bus because... it's the plot.

There is every reason: She has seen the Republic do less than Jack Shit for her planet and once her main ally offers to form a commission to investigate and see if her planet really was invaded, she knew it was going to be the same old bullshit all over again. The fix was in, as far as she could tell.

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really so stupid you need it all spelled out?

[Elfdart]

The point is that the whole affair is poorly written.

No, you're just stupid.

You seem to think TPM includes some kind of clear, compelling, politically relevant story about corrupt politicians and corporate influence. Sure, that's probably what Lucas was going for here, but the way it actually comes off on-screen is just a mess.

Firstly, Valorum isn't exactly portrayed as the bought-and-sold corporate politician you seem to think he is; regardless of how much the Trade Federation was pressuring him, what we actually see on screen is only this: Amidala claims there was an invasion, and then the Trade Federation denies it. Since Valorum has two conflicting claims from Senators of equal standing, what the fuck is he supposed to do? Proposing to send a commission to verify what Amidala is saying isn't so unreasonable, and it doesn't indicate to me that Valorum is bought and sold by corporate interests.

Let's take a real-world example:

Imagine you have a relative who is dying for lack of medical care because the insurance and drug companies jack up prices at will and are willing to your relative die than lose money by paying for treatment that would save his or her life. You are an Obama supporter and backed him because you thought he was going to actually do something to save your family member. Then you see he's thrown the public option under the bus and made a slimy deal with the drug and insurance companies -the same ones who consider your dying relative unprofitable and are willing to let him or her die. You ask Obama before Congress to do something since time is running out.

And he says he'll appoint a commission to see if your relative is really dying.

You wouldn't tell him to go fuck himself? Granted the US doesn't have a parliamentary system, so there are no votes of "no confidence", but if there were and you had a vote you wouldn't send him packing?

Secondly, you still haven't provided any satisfactory answer to the question "why weren't the Jedi called to testify", other than to hint that it happened off-screen.

Who says they weren't? They did tell Valorum and it didn't do any good.

If it happened off-screen that's even worse, because whether the Jedi testified matters to the story; presumably, if they testified there wouldn't necessarily be a need for a no-confidence vote. If Amidala's sob-story was enough to convince the Senate to boot out Valorum, then the Jedi testimony should work in her favor as well.

Naboo only has one vote in the Senate. If Amidala was able to kick Valorum to the curb with her single vote then that means there were many others willing to vote against him as well. I see logic isn't your strong suit.

Thirdly, as Oni Koneko Damien explained, Amidala's vote of no-confidence comes off as contrived. She basically had 2 options: A) return to Naboo with Valorum's commission to verify the atrocties, or B) return to Naboo herself and... do what exactly? She chose option B for no real reason, and returned to Naboo with no plan. The no-confidence-vote really didn't help her in any way. Obviously I realize she was manipulated into calling for the vote, but it's still pointless in terms of storytelling.

She knew the commission wasn't going to do a goddamn thing, just like real-life commissions. She decides to go back to Naboo to take her planet back by force when Jar Jar Binks tells Amidala that the Gungans have a "grand army".

Fourthly, there's no fucking urgency to any of this. The movie seemingly wants us to believe that as every second goes by, more people on Naboo are dying. But we never see anything remotely like that actually happening. For all we know Amidala could have stayed on Coruscant for 2 months while they debated endlessly, with no real consequences.

You don't see anyone dying when Alderaan gets blown up either, just an exploding globe. Man, that Lucas is such a hack!

Finally, for all intents and purpose, the entire final-act is pointless. At this point in the movie, Palpatine already has what he wants, so the ultimate outcome of the Naboo invasion is meaningless. So basically we have to sit and watch an inconsequential series of action sequences, none of which matter in the long run or really have any effect on the saga as a whole. You could argue, as Crazedwraith did earlier, that QuiGon's death had some meaning since it led to Anakin's apprenticeship under Obi-Wan, but even if I grant that, it's not enough to justify the utter inconsequentiality of the final act.

Like most other villains, Palpatine is greedy. He's already chancellor, but guess what would have happened if Amidala had been killed. He could have once again played the victim (something he does several times) and milked it for all it was worth: "Look what they did to the poor Queen!"

Qui-Gon's death is important for the simple reason that parental figures (whether real parents or surrogates) have to be removed for the Hero's Journey to work.

[Elfdart]

The Jedi do not have the ability to magick away the pressure on Valorum.

He could have just showed us that. Having Neeson sitting there, standing to deliver one simple line: "It is true, Senator" and show Valorum get whispered to again, andthen still ignore it would have shown the audience that he was completely worthless. Now, Amidala has played all her obvious cards, and resorts to Palpatine's plan - which she was against earlier - out of frustration. This way, we in the audience, also get to see Valorum's wimpiness first hand, instead of relying on Palpatine's words and a single, not unreasonable, event.

Sounds a lot like my (unreasonable?) suggestion for one or two lines about the Sith.

And both are (a) stupid and (b) not needed. Anyone who doesn't watch the movie with his head up his ass knows the Sith are like the Jedi, but evil. They would also know that the Sith haven't been seen for a thousand years and resent being excluded from what they consider their rightful place in the galaxy.

[Elfdart]

Really, Anakin should have been introduced to us in vastly different circumstances IMO.

The entire set-up of Anakin being a little kid who has absolutely no clue what is going on was a mistake. You'd think you'd want to draw a parallel between Luke on the one hand and Anakin on the other by having them both be the same age when they started their training, but unfortunately you're left with a casting / writing choice that was just horrible for the plot. The creepy-ness factor of the Anakin / Padme romance alone ...

Children who are roughly 11-12 or older are not so attached to Mom & Dad that the idea of having to leave them is just horrible. If anything, they'd like to run off on an adventure without their parents nagging them. Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn are perfect examples of this.

But what did Mark Twain know about telling stories?

[Channel72]

Imagine you have a relative who is dying for lack of medical care because the insurance and drug companies jack up prices at will and are willing to your relative die than lose money by paying for treatment that would save his or her life. You are an Obama supporter and backed him because you thought he was going to actually do something to save your family member. Then you see he's thrown the public option under the bus and made a slimy deal with the drug and insurance companies -the same ones who consider your dying relative unprofitable and are willing to let him or her die. You ask Obama before Congress to do something since time is running out.

And he says he'll appoint a commission to see if your relative is really dying.

You wouldn't tell him to go fuck himself? Granted the US doesn't have a parliamentary system, so there are no votes of "no confidence", but if there were and you had a vote you wouldn't send him packing?

Your analogy has barely any resemblance to the onscreen events in Phantom Menace. You and all the other TPM apologists evidently have some kind of secret Blu-ray Extended Director's cut of Phantom Menace or something, because what the actual movie shows is nothing like your pathetic defense. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the Elfdart Extended Edition (EEE), but here's what happens in the actual movie:

Queen Amidala tells the Senate her planet was invaded. The Trade Federation Senator, who has equal standing in the Senate, flatly denies it. Then, another Senator suggests sending a commission. Now, I assume that in the EEE version, at this point Valorum actually calls in the Jedi, who then back up what the Queen is saying, and then Valorum still insists on sending a commission so we see how useless he is. Unfortunately, that scene is only in the EEE version, so the rest of us just scratch our heads wondering why he didn't just call in the Jedi to have her testimony confirmed. But ignoring the Jedi issue, Valorum doesn't come off as particularly useless, since he basically has two conflicting claims from Senators of equal standing, and sending a commission to Naboo is the only way to resolve the conflict since Amidala doesn't provide any evidence.

I also assume, that in the EEE version we actually see the horrible suffering of the Naboo people, but unfortunately in the real version we haven't seen that, so there's really no urgency at all to the whole affair and we don't understand why Amidala doesn't just go back to Naboo with the committee.

If it happened off-screen that's even worse, because whether the Jedi testified matters to the story; presumably, if they testified there wouldn't necessarily be a need for a no-confidence vote. If Amidala's sob-story was enough to convince the Senate to boot out Valorum, then the Jedi testimony should work in her favor as well.

Naboo only has one vote in the Senate. If Amidala was able to kick Valorum to the curb with her single vote then that means there were many others willing to vote against him as well. I see logic isn't your strong suit.

Your response is totally incongruent to what I actually said here. The point is, having the Jedi testify off-screen is ridiculous in terms of story presentation. The audience is simply left scratching their heads wondering why neither the Queen nor the Chancellor simply brought in the Jedi to confirm her testimony. If the movie had indicated to us that the Jedi did confirm the Queen's story, and Valorum still insisted on sending a commission, then we'd understand the Queen's frustration. But alas, that only happened in the EEE version, so for the rest of us the Queen just comes off as stupid.

But seriously, I find it hilarious you actually defend this: failing to show the Jedi testify is like writing a crime-thriller/courtroom-drama where there is a key-witness who actually saw the murder, but who is never called in to corroborate any testimony or even acknowledged to have any role at all in the courtoom proceedings. But it's all good, cause it happened off-screen, just like 70% of the plot to Phantom Menace!

She knew the commission wasn't going to do a goddamn thing, just like real-life commissions. She decides to go back to Naboo to take her planet back by force when Jar Jar Binks tells Amidala that the Gungans have a "grand army".

I know. The way the screenplay is written however, there's no point to any of it. She could have just waited for Palpatine to show up with the cavalry.

You don't see anyone dying when Alderaan gets blown up either, just an exploding globe. Man, that Lucas is such a hack!

Um...there's a superweapon with the firepower to blow up a fucking planet. Really, what more urgency do you need in that situation?

Like most other villains, Palpatine is greedy. He's already chancellor, but guess what would have happened if Amidala had been killed. He could have once again played the victim (something he does several times) and milked it for all it was worth: "Look what they did to the poor Queen!"

Yeah, that's how you generate real tension. Oh shit...I hope Amidala doesn't die, because that would mean... Palpatine will have slightly more support in the Senate? Yeah, real dramatic. You'd make one fantastic screenwriter.

Qui-Gon's death is important for the simple reason that parental figures (whether real parents or surrogates) have to be removed for the Hero's Journey to work.

TPM has no real Campbellian hero, and ultimately Obi-Wan is the father figure to Anakin, not Qui-Gon. Regardless, I'm not claiming that Qui-Gon's death was inconsequential; obviously, it set up Anakin's apprenticeship under Obi-Wan. What I'm saying is that the final act was written in such a way that the action sequences were ultimately pointless. As soon as Padme landed on Naboo she could have just waited around in the forest trying on different outfits until Palpatine arrived with the cavalry.

[Galvatron]

Sounds a lot like my (unreasonable?) suggestion for one or two lines about the Sith.

And both are (a) stupid and (b) not needed. Anyone who doesn't watch the movie with his head up his ass knows the Sith are like the Jedi, but evil. They would also know that the Sith haven't been seen for a thousand years and resent being excluded from what they consider their rightful place in the galaxy.

We didn't find out until ROTS that the Sith once ruled the galaxy. This is just the sort of information that should have been given to us in TPM.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Was Amidala's decision portrayed as a wise one? NO! It was a desperate act of a young leader in way over her head.

...with two Jedi, one of whom is presumably highly experienced, to back her up. I guess they were on break during the entirety of the Coruscant visit and never had time to mention to her, "Oh, here are a few tips that might help, y'know, save your planet."

That's the tragedy (correct use of this term) of it: She was trying to save her planet but ended up voting out a decent, but weak and ineffective leader and putting a monster in the office. Like many of the decisions the heroes make in the Prequels, it's a tragic mistake. If they don't fuck up and Palpatine doesn't take over, then there's no Evil Empire for episodes 4-6, now is there?

So what you're saying is that the characters are stupid because the plot demands it. Thank you for proving my point.

There is every reason: She has seen the Republic do less than Jack Shit for her planet and once her main ally offers to form a commission to investigate and see if her planet really was invaded, she knew it was going to be the same old bullshit all over again. The fix was in, as far as she could tell.

You're right, they didn't do anything...

...except send in a pair of Jedi, the then accepted troubleshooters of the entire fucking galaxy to investigate. There's only ten-thousand of them having to cover how many millions of worlds, and Naboo was lucky enough to get a visit from these near-mythical figures. But you're right, the Republic did jack and shit for them. Face it, either the plot is fucking retarded, or you're watching an entirely different movie than the sane people on this forum.

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really so stupid you need it all spelled out?

Well, I see you constantly repeating debunked points, bringing up things that never fucking happened in the movie, and completely forgetting the entire opening scene to the movie when it suits your purposes. But I'm sure I'm the stupid one for pointing this out and inspiring yet another screeching, defensive, fanboy spasmfit from you.

[Galvatron]

There is every reason: She has seen the Republic do less than Jack Shit for her planet and once her main ally offers to form a commission to investigate and see if her planet really was invaded, she knew it was going to be the same old bullshit all over again. The fix was in, as far as she could tell.

You're right, they didn't do anything...

...except send in a pair of Jedi, the then accepted troubleshooters of the entire fucking galaxy to investigate. There's only ten-thousand of them having to cover how many millions of worlds, and Naboo was lucky enough to get a visit from these near-mythical figures.

Indeed. As soon as the delegate from the Trade Federation recommended that a commission be sent, the chancellor should have revealed to the senate that he had the sworn testimony of the Jedi master and his padawan that he already sent to Naboo.

[Havok]

Question: Why would the testimony of two Jedi be any more relevant than the leader of the world in question?

[Crazedwraith]

Jedi should be seen as impartial, more so than the leader of the world in question, at least.

[Galvatron]

Hav,

Question: Why would the testimony of two Jedi be any more relevant than the leader of the world in question?

Jedi should be seen as impartial, more so than the leader of the world in question, at least.

This.

Presumably, that's why they were sent to negotiate a settlement in the first place.

[Havok]

Right. Impartial. Sent at the bequest of the entire Senate so as to... Oh what was that? Sent at the request of the Chancellor only? In secret?

Oh yeah, I can see how their testimony would be impartial and not seen as the Chancellor circumventing legal Senate channels. And of course the Jedi documented the occupation right? Took notes, pictures, video. Talked to witnesses. Had actual evidence other than just their say so?

[Galvatron]

I don't see the problem here. How was the chancellor circumventing anything? The fact that they were Jedi was a secret, but everyone knew the chancellor was sending ambassadors to negotiate a settlement. Even if the senate didn't know, I still don't see the big deal. Are the Jedi not the guardians of peace and justice for the entire galaxy? Does their credibility in such matters hinge on the senate being fully apprised of their activities?

Took notes, pictures, video. Talked to witnesses. Had actual evidence other than just their say so?

The Trade Federation tried to murder them! And they did murder the crew of their transport! That alone should have merited a strong response by the senate.

[Adam Reynolds]

Jedi should be seen as impartial, more so than the leader of the world in question, at least.

Presumably, that's why they were sent to negotiate a settlement in the first place.

The opening crawl implied that the Chancellor sent the Jedi illegally. Especially in light of the fact that in Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan states that the Jedi have loyalty to the Senate, not its leader. This is further backed up by the fact when Padme went before the Senate, other Senators were more willing to back the Trade Federation than her.

Right. Impartial. Sent at the bequest of the entire Senate so as to... Oh what was that? Sent at the request of the Chancellor only? In secret?

Oh yeah, I can see how their testimony would be impartial and not seen as the Chancellor circumventing legal Senate channels. And of course the Jedi documented the occupation right? Took notes, pictures, video. Talked to witnesses. Had actual evidence other than just their say so?

Also Cloak of Deception shows that Valorum was close friends with high level members of the Jedi Order and that they were willing to do each other favors.

[Havok]

Was Amidala's decision portrayed as a wise one? NO! It was a desperate act of a young leader in way over her head.

...with two Jedi, one of whom is presumably highly experienced, to back her up. I guess they were on break during the entirety of the Coruscant visit and never had time to mention to her, "Oh, here are a few tips that might help, y'know, save your planet."

What would Qui-Gon know about that? The Jedi are essentially glorified mediators. They don't even have the power to interfere on that scale without the Chancellor's permission.

That's the tragedy (correct use of this term) of it: She was trying to save her planet but ended up voting out a decent, but weak and ineffective leader and putting a monster in the office. Like many of the decisions the heroes make in the Prequels, it's a tragic mistake. If they don't fuck up and Palpatine doesn't take over, then there's no Evil Empire for episodes 4-6, now is there?

So what you're saying is that the characters are stupid because the plot demands it. Thank you for proving my point.

Yeah, no. Padme' made a judgment call based on the severity of her position and was not stupid.
When the vote of no confidence was made, there was no guarantee that Palpatine would be elected the new Chancellor. In fact he wasn't even a consideration for a possible replacement which is why everyone was surprised that he was picked (Palpatine's schemes were behind it, but no one but he and a few others new that.)
Also, who ever was picked, would more than likely feel an obligation to help out Padme' for being elected and expedite a resolution to her situation.

There is every reason: She has seen the Republic do less than Jack Shit for her planet and once her main ally offers to form a commission to investigate and see if her planet really was invaded, she knew it was going to be the same old bullshit all over again. The fix was in, as far as she could tell.

You're right, they didn't do anything...

...except send in a pair of Jedi, the then accepted troubleshooters of the entire fucking galaxy to investigate. There's only ten-thousand of them having to cover how many millions of worlds, and Naboo was lucky enough to get a visit from these near-mythical figures. But you're right, the Republic did jack and shit for them. Face it, either the plot is fucking retarded, or you're watching an entirely different movie than the sane people on this forum.

The Jedi are hardly 'near mythical' in the PT time. They have a gigantic fucking BASE right in the middle of Coruscant. And where are you getting this 'accepted troubleshooters' bullshit? Why were they sent in secret then, if they were so excepted. Why didn't the Chancellor tell the Senate that he was sending them? And to use the point you all seem to be harping on... Why didn't he call them as witnesses?

[Channel72]

I suppose the overall point is that Amidala's no confidence vote is totally contrived; there were so many other options available. It's bad enough the screenplay just ignores the fact that Valorum already sent two Jedi to investigate, but even without the Jedi, doesn't Amidala have any evidence of Trade Federation hostility? What about the flight-recorder/computer on the Queen's ship? What about R2-D2's memory banks? (R2 was there when the Federation ships opened fire on the Queen's ship.) There must be something.

[Elfdart]

Your analogy has barely any resemblance to the onscreen events in Phantom Menace. You and all the other TPM apologists evidently have some kind of secret Blu-ray Extended Director's cut of Phantom Menace or something, because what the actual movie shows is nothing like your pathetic defense.

Project often? I'm only talking about the movie itself, you lying, goat-felching fucktard. Amidala has every reason to believe the Senate will do nothing to help her. First of all because her own ambassador tells her that Valorum is "mired" in his own problems, and that his advisers are on the take from the Federation.

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the Elfdart Extended Edition (EEE), but here's what happens in the actual movie:

Queen Amidala tells the Senate her planet was invaded. The Trade Federation Senator, who has equal standing in the Senate, flatly denies it. Then, another Senator suggests sending a commission. Now, I assume that in the EEE version, at this point Valorum actually calls in the Jedi, who then back up what the Queen is saying, and then Valorum still insists on sending a commission so we see how useless he is. Unfortunately, that scene is only in the EEE version, so the rest of us just scratch our heads wondering why he didn't just call in the Jedi to have her testimony confirmed. But ignoring the Jedi issue, Valorum doesn't come off as particularly useless, since he basically has two conflicting claims from Senators of equal standing, and sending a commission to Naboo is the only way to resolve the conflict since Amidala doesn't provide any evidence.

Kindly take your strawman and stick it at least 18 inches up your ass, shitstain. When Qui-Gon arrives on Coruscant, the first person he speaks to is Valorum. He requests an immediate meeting with the Jedi Council and tells Valorum (the person who sent him in the first place) that things have become more complicated. Then the scene ends. Now the normal viewer sees that the two Jedi Knights have stayed behind on the platform to talk to Valorum rather than hopping in the taxi with the others. What do you think they discussed? The weather? Sports? Maybe they chatted about how certain fans are such utter fucking imbeciles that they believe that unless something actually happened on screen, and are practically beaten over the head with it, then it never happened. I can't wait for morons like you to say Revenge of the Sith has a "plot hole" because it's not explained in detail how Luke and Leia are conceived and we never actually see Padme and Anakin fuck.

Your response is totally incongruent to what I actually said here. The point is, having the Jedi testify off-screen is ridiculous in terms of story presentation. The audience is simply left scratching their heads wondering why neither the Queen nor the Chancellor simply brought in the Jedi to confirm her testimony. If the movie had indicated to us that the Jedi did confirm the Queen's story, and Valorum still insisted on sending a commission, then we'd understand the Queen's frustration. But alas, that only happened in the EEE version, so for the rest of us the Queen just comes off as stupid.

Did you even watch the movie, numbnuts? It never got far enough for them to testify. Amidala, egged on by her trusted adviser, pulled the plug on Valorum and any committee investigation. She then took matters into her own hands.

By the way, what if they did testify? What makes you think the senators who either support the Federation or are looking for an excuse to shank Valorum will give a shit what the Jedi have to say? The TF has the gall to claim they didn't attack Naboo for fuck's sake -and they still had support. Handwaving away anything the Jedi said would be small beer in comparison.

She knew the commission wasn't going to do a goddamn thing, just like real-life commissions. She decides to go back to Naboo to take her planet back by force when Jar Jar Binks tells Amidala that the Gungans have a "grand army".

I know. The way the screenplay is written however, there's no point to any of it. She could have just waited for Palpatine to show up with the cavalry.

No, because Palpatine wasn't going to show up with the cavalry. He tipped off the Federation and sent his chief henchman to Naboo to kill them. Amidala had proved to be a wild card and getting rid of her would bring serious benefits. A raging battle on Naboo would make it easier for him to play the victim.

Um...there's a superweapon with the firepower to blow up a fucking planet. Really, what more urgency do you need in that situation?

And there's a rampaging army that has invaded and occupied a helpless planet and herded its inhabitants into camps. What more urgency do you need? Oh that's right: Unlike 90-plus percent of normal people who think the idea of being invaded, occupied and put in camps to be "processed" is something to be dreaded, you have to actually see battle droids gang-raping Gungans and acting like Einsatzgruppen. Fuck you, dummy.

Yeah, that's how you generate real tension. Oh shit...I hope Amidala doesn't die, because that would mean... Palpatine will have slightly more support in the Senate? Yeah, real dramatic. You'd make one fantastic screenwriter.

So the fact that a Machiavellian bad guy who is out to take over by manipulating the political process would exploit the death of a child is bad writing. I hope you never watch Richard III or Lady Jane.

What I'm saying is that the final act was written in such a way that the action sequences were ultimately pointless. As soon as Padme landed on Naboo she could have just waited around in the forest trying on different outfits until Palpatine arrived with the cavalry.

You say that because you're an idiot. When exactly did Palpatine arrive with this "cavalry"? You see his ship land after the battle is over (no indication as to just how long after). He shows up with his bodyguards and a few Jedi VIPs.

You are one dumb twat.

[Havok]

I don't see the problem here. How was the chancellor circumventing anything? The fact that they were Jedi was a secret, but everyone knew the chancellor was sending ambassadors to negotiate a settlement. Even if the senate didn't know, I still don't see the big deal. Are the Jedi not the guardians of peace and justice for the entire galaxy? Does their credibility in such matters hinge on the senate being fully apprised of their activities?

C'mon Galvs you aren't stupid. The Chancellor sent them in secret, obviously to get a solution without having to involve the Senate. It was exactly circumventing the Senate since we know that they were already involved in the problem.

And yes, when the TF has the backing that they obviously do, the Jedi's credibility is absolutely in question when they are sent to help the OPPOSITION of the TF at the SECRET request of the Chancellor.

Think of them like the Mission Impossible team. If you get the job done, great. The Chancellor can then say, 'hey look what I did'. If they fuck up, which they did... 'who are you again?'

[Galvatron]

Again, their identities as Jedi were a secret, but both sides knew the chancellor was sending someone. We have no evidence that the chancellor went behind the backs of the senate in merely sending negotiators, but the neimodians were obviously surprised when TC-14 informed them that the ambassadors were, in fact, Jedi knights. That was the secret.

[Havok]

I suppose the overall point is that Amidala's no confidence vote is totally contrived; there were so many other options available.

Really? What were they?

It's bad enough the screenplay just ignores the fact that Valorum already sent two Jedi to investigate,

It ignores them because they FAILED. Are you a fucking idiot or what?

but even without the Jedi, doesn't Amidala have any evidence of Trade Federation hostility? What about the flight-recorder/computer on the Queen's ship? What about R2-D2's memory banks? (R2 was there when the Federation ships opened fire on the Queen's ship.) There must be something.

And which one of those pieces of evidence would the TF not dispute and STILL call for a commission to be sent? Exactly.

The issue is that the Senate is corrupt and Valorum is weak. He was about to side with Amidala, but was cowed by that weakness and conceded the point. What was Padme supposed to do at that point? The occupation was going to continue until the commission was voted on, formed, approved, argued about, reapproved etc. etc., all the while while her people were being KILLED. The Senate STILL hadn't got anything done by the time the movie was over. All they had done was elected Palpatine.

[Galvatron]

It's bad enough the screenplay just ignores the fact that Valorum already sent two Jedi to investigate,

It ignores them because they FAILED. Are you a fucking idiot or what?

They failed to negotiate a settlement. This affects their credibility as survivors of the TF's murder-attempts and witnesses to the invasion...how?

[Elfdart]

So what you're saying is that the characters are stupid because the plot demands it. Thank you for proving my point.

You really are a dumbass. Characters in fiction only act on what they know (or think they know). Padme wasn't "stupid" because she thought the fix was in and the Senate could not or would not help. She had no way of knowing her own ambassador was behind the whole thing.

You're right, they didn't do anything...

...except send in a pair of Jedi, the then accepted troubleshooters of the entire fucking galaxy to investigate.

Did they stop the invasion?

There's only ten-thousand of them having to cover how many millions of worlds, and Naboo was lucky enough to get a visit from these near-mythical figures. But you're right, the Republic did jack and shit for them. Face it, either the plot is fucking retarded, or you're watching an entirely different movie than the sane people on this forum.

Or option C: You are retarded.

Indeed. As soon as the delegate from the Trade Federation recommended that a commission be sent, the chancellor should have revealed to the senate that he had the sworn testimony of the Jedi master and his padawan that he already sent to Naboo.

At which point the TF would (a) deny everything (b) admit nothing (c) make counter-accusations <clutch-the -pearls mode>Valorum sent Jedi behind the back of the Senate!</clutch-the-pearls mode> while the same crooks and opportunists gummed up the works.

The Trade Federation tried to murder them! And they did murder the crew of their transport! That alone should have merited a strong response by the senate.

See a, b and c above.

"We didn't try to kill anyone. In fact, we were never there!"

[Havok]

Again, their identities as Jedi were a secret, but both sides knew the chancellor was sending someone. We have no evidence that the chancellor went behind the backs of the senate in merely sending negotiators, but the neimodians were obviously surprised when TC-14 informed them that the ambassadors were, in fact, Jedi knights. That was the secret.

Why did they NEED to be sent in secret if there wasn't an issue with sending them?

[Havok]

It's bad enough the screenplay just ignores the fact that Valorum already sent two Jedi to investigate,

It ignores them because they FAILED. Are you a fucking idiot or what?

They failed to negotiate a settlement. This affects their credibility as survivors of the TF's murder-attempts and witnesses to the invasion...how?

'Two Jedi arrived on our command ship under false pretense as ambassadors for the Chancellor and the Naboo and began attacking us and attempted to destroy our command ship. We took this as a hostile act and responded accordingly.'