Economic impact of HoloNet

[bz249]

AFAIK the Empire turned off most of the HoloNet and from the savings they financed the expansion of the Imperial Starfleet.

How can this happen? I mean if the US government shut down most of the Internet or the cell phone network it would not make savings, but instead would lead to an economic collapse. Or the HoloNet was not important for the economy? What could then be a better analogy for that thing?

[The Grim Squeaker]

How can this happen? I mean if the US government shut down most of the Internet or the cell phone network it would not make savings, but instead would lead to an economic collapse. Or the HoloNet was not important for the economy? What could then be a better analogy for that thing?

Free international cellphone video calls. Perfect analogy.

[Darth Raptor]

Where is this from, exactly? We know for a fact that the HoloNet wasn't shut down, and a strong Imperial monopoly of the galaxy's main (only?) form of FTL communication dovetails nicely with Palpatine's agenda.

HoloNet transceivers are hyperspace radios. Imagine if a single cell phone tower took an entire fission plant to power, and you can see why the FCC might like to downsize. When you reach the level of technology displayed by the GFFA, energy and raw materials ARE the economy. Their capitalism and scarcity are more or less artificial and highly-regulated anachronisms that persist due to cultural and political reasons more than anything else.

[bz249]

"To ensure control over the populace, the Empire dismantled the galaxy-spanning HoloNet. With this public forum of information exchange now in the hands of the military, the Emperor was able to funnel the immense taxation revenue required to keep the HoloNet active into building his war machine. Furthermore, Imperial control of free information ensured that only the New Order agenda propagated throughout the galaxy, and dissenting voices were all but silenced."

from here

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organi ... theempire/

[Thanas]

That he dismantled it is a pretty serious misrepresentation - all the canon sources say is that the empire established control over the holonet.

[bz249]

That he dismantled it is a pretty serious misrepresentation - all the canon sources say is that the empire established control over the holonet.

Someone should tell it to starwars.com...

[Ritterin Sophia]

That he dismantled it is a pretty serious misrepresentation - all the canon sources say is that the empire established control over the holonet.

Someone should tell it to starwars.com...

Or we can follow the canon hierarchy:

The Holonet is used by Vader to correspond with Palpatine in Ep V.
Movies being in the highest tier of canon supercedes anything in a lower branch of canon, if it directly contradicts the movie it is rendered N-Canon.
StarWars.com not being a movie is lower in canon hierarchy and directly contradicts the movies.
Ergo in this particular instance what StarWars.com says is noncanon.

[bz249]

Let's analyse what is in the starwars.com quote:

"With this public forum of information exchange now in the hands of the military"

So military personel (like Vader) can still use the HoloNet. He can do this all though Ep. IV-VI. Thus starwars.com quote has nothing contradictory to the movies.

"the Emperor was able to funnel the immense taxation revenue required to keep the HoloNet active into building his war machine"

Indeed the HoloNet was producing debt to the state.

So let's do the following thought experiment: the Internet, the cell phone network or even a small piece like the GPS is only available to military personel. What kind of savings this would lead to?

[Thanas]

It was not only available to the military. How do we know that? Because Mahd Windcaller was a media baronnes and made her fortune on Holonet news and propaganda.

[Serafina]

So, basically, all the Empire did was censoring the HoloNet?

Well, that might ruin some news corporations, but that should be all the economic impact it had.

[Thanas]

No, afaik it restricted access to those who were trusted. Quite an effective weapon - if your planet goes rogue, bam, there goes your communications network. This is also why both the CIS and the Rebel Alliance built seperate holonet networks.

[bz249]

No, afaik it restricted access to those who were trusted. Quite an effective weapon - if your planet goes rogue, bam, there goes your communications network. This is also why both the CIS and the Rebel Alliance built seperate holonet networks.

And how to earn profit from them? Because the Empire used the revenues formerly required to run the system properly to expand their military. This is my problem. How can the existance of a communication network be a drain to the budget (since the revenue side of the budget is closely related to the economy, so such a system should have at least an implicitly positive effect)?

[Simon_Jester]

Perhaps the HoloNet is vastly more expensive to maintain than, say, a network of automated courier ships? It's faster than hyperspace travel, which is already hellishly fast; getting decent bandwidth for HoloNet communications may require massive infrastructure. Maybe the Republic assembled the modern HoloNet as a massive "bread and circuses" program designed to provide cheap entertainment and communications to the public... and then found out that they had to subsidize the program to keep it running.

By the time they realized what a drain on the budget it was, it was too late for them to do anything about it because the Senators were already tied in deep with the contractors who were building and maintaining the network. Even though the HoloNet wasn't profitable and wasn't contributing to economic growth, anyone who tried to cut government subsidies to the system would be deafened by the screams of trillion of beings in millions of star systems demanding to know why they couldn't play Galaxy of Starcraft with their buddy in the next sector anymore... and trillions more decrying the end of government-funded communications and the inevitable rise of private-sector companies that would ignore the time-honored custom HoloNet Neutrality.
_____

There has to come a point at which improving communications is no longer profitable- or rather no longer contributes to economic growth. All forms of infrastructure investment hit diminishing returns, and the HoloNet may be beyond that point in Star Wars.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Just how much does the galaxy rely on intersystem trade of common consumer goods? We know trade exists across the galaxy, but for your average citizen on a halfways decent world(ie not backwater shithole like Tatooine), how dependent are they on off planet goods/out of system goods? I know for example, droids tend to be manufactured it seems by galactic or sector spanning level corporations. Might not common household goods come primarily from in system manufacturers? Say I'm living on a halfways decent world on the Outer Rim (ie developed with popualtions in the double to tripple digit billions), does it really make sense for me to purchase a blender or stove from a company that is based on and manufactures its goods on a core world? Naturrally there will be the transportation of raw materials and luxury items. Shouldn't it be cheaper to manufacture goods locally, importing raw materials if necessary, than shipping finished goods all across the galaxy? I do realize the speed of hyperdrive, and the relative ease of energy generation that is present, but my point is more to the fact that would there really be that much pangalactic advertising going on to begin with?

I know the concept of the HoloNet is supposed to be like the Internet with all the associated advertizing, commercialization, and such, but is that accurate to expect it? I can definitely see such things being in existence on a planetary, system, and even sector level. Have we ever really seen an average person make the equivalent of a long distance call to someone on the other side of the galaxy? Heck have we really seen anything on the HoloNet that is more than a glorified phonecall? I imagine bandwidth would be a major issue. Even though they are using ftl tech that obviosly doesn't use the EM spectrum, I think it would be faulty thinking to assume no limits to whatever the medium is. Consider the rate we've used up the EM spectrum in the last 50 years, to the point that its is one of the most if not the most valuable resources currently. I can't even imagine the amount of bandwidth that would be used on larger worlds considering their tech level, let alone the entire galaxy. I honestly woudn't be surprised if the amount of information being transmitted on Tatooine exceeds what we are producing on earth, given their level of tech. I guess in the end, is it right to assume something like the internet and trade like we experience on Earth can scale up, let alone to a galactic level? Moresoe, when what we've seen of the HoloNet in the movies seems to be more akin to the old intercontinental phone lines (ie international phone calls), and networks like the DARPA Net than the modern internet. I do like the idea of the HoloNet being the Star Wars equivalent of the Internet, but I wander if that's not more of brainbug. I readily admit my exposure to the EU is very limited and that it is limited to stuff from the early to mid 90s. I just don't really recall there ever being examples of the HoloNet being like the internet with all the commercialism and what not.

[Simon_Jester]

If the HoloNet is low-bandwidth (and yet for some reason they use freestanding holograms of the people sending the message, not voice...?) and more like DARPAnet than like today's Internet, then blocking civilian use could save money. Though, again, that would require that in the Republic era, the government be subsidizing communications.

[Coalition]

I'd see the Holonet as being siilar to video chat or Second Life, when a chat room would work just as well. If everyone wanted to use web cams or virtual avatars for everything (using body language to help communicate), then the bandwidth used would be high. (Compare to modern day chat rooms coming around much earlier than web cam porn.)

If you make everyone revert back to chat rooms, they lose some of the communications ability, but the bandwidth savings is enormous. That means the Empire doesn't need as many transmitters, power supplies, routers, etc.

On-planet probably still has Holonet communications, in-system might, but after that, if you want holonet, you have to buy the system youself and make sure to have the registry node attached to it (aka spy tap).

[Ryushikaze]

Holonet refers in this case not to the complete network, but of the particular bandwidth intensive usage of the overall communication network. By massively tamping down on its use, cutting out frivolous use, they could shave off massive overhead without killing commerce.
Basically, it's like saving Fiber optic lines for Military, and letting civvies sit with Cable or less, in terms of bandwidth.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'd have to dig around in the WEG stuff, but I vagueyl recall it mentioned somewhere that Part of what Palpy did was disassemble holonet gear and stick it onboard the Star Destroyers. RAterh than being stationary they became mobile parts of the network under military control (similar, I think, to what the Separatists used with their shadowfeed stuff.) I could be wrong though.

[Alyeska]

I'd have to dig around in the WEG stuff, but I vagueyl recall it mentioned somewhere that Part of what Palpy did was disassemble holonet gear and stick it onboard the Star Destroyers. RAterh than being stationary they became mobile parts of the network under military control (similar, I think, to what the Separatists used with their shadowfeed stuff.) I could be wrong though.

That actually makes sense. It directly ties the Holonet right into the military. Provides absolute government control, and the holonet becomes dependent on the military. And with that setup, they could easily have used holonet funding to directly funnel into the Navy.

[Solauren]

Best way to say it;

Can you imagine how many holonet repeaters and relays it would take to cover the entire galaxy? And how much that would cost to keep in top running order?

Odds are, 'shutting down portions of the holonet' meant removing non-key relay stations.

So, instead of spending Big $ to keep some piss-ant systems relay station operating, they let it decay/shut it down, and they have to use the same main relay station everyone else in the sector does.

In other words, Everyone could still use the holonet, but had limited avialable bandwidth (unless they paid for more).

The government, however, still has unlimited use.