[PDD] Traitor (SPOILERS)

[His Divine Shadow]

Here you go, I loved this book BTW:

Pg. 10: "You have no business with the Force, nor it with you. Let you have the Force? The idea! It must be some kind of human thing-you mammals are so impulsive, so reckless: infants teething on a blaster. No, no, no, little Solo. The Force is much too dangerous for children. A great deal more dangerous than those ridiculous lightsabers you all seem to like to wave about. So I took it away from you."

Pg. 34: "The two are, in this case, more closely related than the warmaster might suspect. For a quarter of a standard century, the Solo family has dominated galactic affairs of all kinds. Even the warmaster of the Jedi is none other than Jacen Solo's uncle. This uncle, Luke Skywalker, is popularly considered to have singlehandedly created the Nev Republic by defeating an older, much more rational government called the Empire. And, I might add, it is fortunate for us that he did; the Empire was vastly more organized, powerful, and potently militaristic. Lacking the internal divisions we have exploited so successfully in the New Republic, the Empire could have crushed our people utterly in their first encounter."

Pg. 38: The vessel was not alone. These answering ripples had a direction; the dovin basals of the small vessel were sensitive enough to register the femtosecond-scale difference between the instant one dovin basal detected a wave of space-time and the instant that wave reached its twin.

Pg. 45: Those hills overhead were only a klick away, maybe a klick and a half. The "sun" must have been some kind of artificial fusion source, probably not much bigger than Jacen's fist. He nodded to himself; with the fine gravity control wielded by dovin basals, it wouldn't be much of a trick to contain a fusion furnace. Filtering out damaging radiation would be trickier, though. He couldn't guess how they managed it without shield technology; he'd never been technical.

Pg. 49: "Like all complex creatures," she said, "the Yuuzhan Vong homeworld will require a brain."
The creatures were called dhuryams.
Related to yammosks, dhuryams are fully as specialized as the giant war coordinators, but bred for a different, much more complex type of telepathic coordination. Bigger, stronger, vastly more powerful, dhuryams are capable of mentally melding many, many more disparate elements than the greatest yammosk that ever lived.

Pg. 56: His robe had healed weeks ago. Even the bloodstain was gone. He suspected that the robeskins lived on the secr~tions of the creatures who wore them: sweat, blood, sloughed skin cells, and oils. His was large and healthy, even though he continually ripped strips from it for bandages, both for himself and for the wounded slaves he treated; it always grew back to the original length within a day or two.

Pg. 60-61: "How—? " he gasped. "How could you possibly—"
"Didn't I tell you to keep that in place?" Vergere slapped the bandage flat again, then briskly tied it down with the strips she'd torn from Jacen's robeskin.
"Those tears—what are they? " Jacen asked, awed.
"Whatever I choose them to be."
"I don't understand."
"If you still had the Force, it would be obvious. Females of my species have very sophisticated lachrymal glands; even the Force-bund can—could-^alter their tears to produce a wide range of pheromonal signals and chemical intoxicants for use on our males. Using the Force, my control is very precise: I can match the molecular structure of my tears to my desire, whether that desire be a systemic cure for coornb-spore infection — or merely a potent topical antibiotic with instant steroidal properties."

Pg. 70: This was what he knew and understood: the answer for the Yuuzhan Vong was the same as the answer for himself.
There is no life without the Force. The human eye does not register electromagnetic energy outside the tiny band of frequencies called visible light-but even though you can't see them, those frequencies exist. The Yuuzhan Vong and their creations must participate in a part of the Force that is beyond the range of Jedi senses.
That's all. Jacen stood on the hillock, staring down at the dhuryam island with its ring of warrior-guards, and he thought, The Yuuzhan Vong aren't the only ones who participate in a part of the Force that is outside the range of fedi senses.
I do, too.

Pg. 79-80: Its new masters began by stealing its moons. Stripped from orbit by dovin basal gravity drives, the three smaller moons were steered well away, while the largest was pulverized by tidal stress created by pulses from other yammosk-linked dovin basals. A refined application of similar techniques organized the resultant mass of dust and gravel and lumps of hardening magma into a thick spreading ring-disk of rubble that rotated around the planet at an angle seventeen degrees from the ecliptic. This, while dramatic in itself, was only a prologue.

Dovin basals had been grown on the planet's surface.

The effect of gravity can be profitably described topographically, as an altered curvature of space-time. The dovin basals on the planet's surface altered the curve of local space-time in such a way that the direction of the planet's orbit became, roughly speaking, uphill. The planet slowed. Slowing, it fell inward, toward its sun.
It got warmer.

Pg. 89: Through his empathic connection, Jacen shows them the ground he recommends. Trusting their friend, the amphistaffs take his advice. He stretches forth his arms. The warriors can only stare in openmouthed awe as amphistaffs fall like leaves from the polyps at his back; as amphistaffs wriggle down the polyps' knobby leathern trunks and slither through the grass.

Amphistaffs twine about Jacen's ankles and climb his body like vines enveloping a forgotten jungle idol. They twist around his legs, his hips, his chest, coiling the length of his arms, shrouding his neck, curving up to embrace even his skull. The approaching squads of fully armed warriors slow uncertainly, not quite sure, now, how to attack. Because the vonduun crab is not the only creature that can resist the cut of an amphistaff blade.

Jacen brings his hands together before him, and offers the warriors a solemn bow. When he parts his hands again, a mature amphistaff stretches between them, blade and spike, fully envenomed. As is everyone of the seventeen amphistaffs that make up his armor.

Jacen says, "I'd like you all to meet some friends of mine."

Pg. 93: Jacen Solo sprints into battle.
As he runs, he makes an image in his mind. The amphistaff he carries matches itself to this image, coiling more than half its length around his forearm. An internal pulse from its linked chain of power glands generates an energy field that rigidifies its semicrystalline cell structure, locking it in that form: a meter of it extends from his right fist, tipped with a double-handspan blade. The same field that rigidifies the amphistaff extends a fractional millimeter beyond the blade, giving it an edge no thicker than an atomic diameter.

Pg. 94: Only energy fields like its own can withstand the amphistaff's edge; the shells of vonduun crabs are intricately structured crystal, reinforced by a field generated by power glands very similar to those of the amphistaff itself.

Pg. 166-167: Why would the Jedi Council... build its Temple upon... a nexus of the dark side?"

"Vergere, I-" He shook his head helplessly. "I have to go. I have to go before-before I..." hurt you again, he finished silently. He touldn't say it out loud. Not here. "I don't have time for guessing games."

"No guessing. . ." she said. "The answer is... simple.

They wouldn't." He went very, very still. "What do you mean? I can feel the dark side here. I touched the dark side, and it, and it, it touched me-"

"No. What you feel is the Force." Slowly, painfully, she lifted herself onto her elbows, and she met his blankly astonished stare. "This is the shameful secret of the Jedi:There is no dark side."

How could she lie here with smoke still rising from the shreds of her clothing, and expect him to believe this? "Vergere, I know better. What do you think just happened here?"

"The Force is one, Jacen Solo. The Force is everything, and everything is the Force. I've told you already: the Force does not take sides. The Force does not even have sides."

"That's not true! It isn't-" The red tide surged into his chest, reaching for his heart. Everything I tell you is a lie. This was only another of her lies. It had to be. If it wasn't- He couldn't let himself think it. He shook his head hard enough to make his ears ring. "It's a lie-"

"No. Search your feelings. You know this to be true. The Force is one."

But he could feel the dark side: he was drowning in it.

"Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand."

Pg. 168: "What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion... but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness-true greatness of any kind-requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind."
...
"If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."

Pg. 174: Jacen burst into a sprint; the Force lent wings to his heels, driving him inhumanly fast, and faster, and faster still. He covered the hundred meters in an eye blink, and found Anakin still well ahead, still looking back? beckoning? urging him onward.

Pg. 193: "I remember feeling them through the Force as their fake regret turned to real fear. I remember liking it."
They had fired on him, blaster bolts streaking scarlet through the greenish acid-fog. Laughing, Jacen had caught their blaster bolts with the palm of his right hand, effortlessly channeling away the destructive energies before they could do him harm. Flicks of his wrist had seized those blasters with the Force and tossed them negligently aside.

Pg. 193: While the Force had roared through his head, he'd reached down into the hollow center of his chest, into the void where the slave seed had been, and there he had found the dim semiconsciousness of the cavern beast. With the Force for power, he'd created a delusion: a simple conviction so deeply rooted in the cavern beast's murky mind that no evidence to the contrary could ever shake it.
Humans are poisonous.

[Ender]

Personally, I loved Gandalf- I mean Ganner's last stand.

[Mr Bean]

Oooooh...... Must pick up book now

Or "borrow" it from an unsuspecting friend

[Crazy_Vasey]

One of the best written SW books out there but some of the stuff is definately not what Lucas intended.

No light or dark side to the force? Yeah...

[SirNitram]

One of the best written SW books out there but some of the stuff is definately not what Lucas intended.

No light or dark side to the force? Yeah...

Most vexating.

[Ender]

Well, it makes alot more sense that way, but the fact is that it directly contradicts all Lucas has tried to potray about the Dark Side.

[Mr Bean]

Realy? Look how he portrayed the Jedi on AOTC.

Prehaps Ep3 will show us the way

[Ender]

Realy? Look how he portrayed the Jedi on AOTC.

I'm afraid I don't follow.

One of the big things has always been that the Dark Side is almost a concious entity. It wants to seduce you. It tempts you. It gives you certain powers the light side does not.

However, if the Force is all one and the same, how do you account for these differences?

[Cal Wright]

Actually, it would be accounted by ones own conscience. You crave power and you use the Force for that desire and it just multiplies your feelings. That would explain why the Jedi Order forbid love. Personally, I sat down in one day and read this book. I was frustrated the whole way through. I will have to say, it was put down, but not as complex or deep as it could have been, or maybe what they were trying for. The only good thing, Jacen seems to feel the Vong now. Then all of the sudden he can't? Either way, maybe they'll get themselves straightened out.

[Mr Bean]

I'm afraid I don't follow.

They where CORRUPT, simple as that the Jedi had gotten Arrogent, Slow and had trouble getting to the force and I acutal like this new EU version of the Force abit it makes sense beacuse it follows the classic

Power Corrupts

Absoulte Power Corrupts Absoutly

Think about it.. Why do every single Light Jedi at one time or another have to fight aginst the Dark-side and its corruption? Why do all the *uber powerful Jedi Dark Jedi do evil Things?

Because no one can stop them

Look at Exel Kum(sp?) it took a 7000:1 Advanatage for the Jedi to take him down, The Emperor? Vadar got Lucky, That one on Dathomir? Luke was completly IN the Force at that time and if you notice even then it was only pure tecnoligcal Might that that let them overcome here(ISD VS Shuttle hmmmmm....)(Correction Five ISDs VS a Shuttle hmmmm)

[His Divine Shadow]

One of the best written SW books out there but some of the stuff is definately not what Lucas intended.

No light or dark side to the force? Yeah...

Hey, genius, do you think they come up with these things themselves?
Such momentus implications are GIVEN to the authors to work into the books, just like Chewbaccas and Anakins death where not original ideas of the authors, the same applies here, the idea came from Lucasfilm and possibly from GL himself.

[His Divine Shadow]

One of the big things has always been that the Dark Side is almost a concious entity. It wants to seduce you. It tempts you. It gives you certain powers the light side does not.

However, if the Force is all one and the same, how do you account for these differences?

No, thats what the Jedi tells you, the.. "Dark side", is when you give into the force, to passion, to yourself. If there is slaughter as a result, it is you, not the force.

And force powers are brought up different, to bring up certain powers one would expect in the ahem... "Dark side", one would have to give into the force and all that.

[Mr Bean]

Force Lighting classic Example, HOW is it Evil? Any more evil than force throwing your oppent of the ledge than frying with?

[Crazy_Vasey]

One of the best written SW books out there but some of the stuff is definately not what Lucas intended.

No light or dark side to the force? Yeah...

Hey, genius, do you think they come up with these things themselves?
Such momentus implications are GIVEN to the authors to work into the books, just like Chewbaccas and Anakins death where not original ideas of the authors, the same applies here, the idea came from Lucasfilm and possibly from GL himself.

You don't say...

Just because it came from Del ray and not the author doesn't mean I have to like it any more or not comment on it.

As far as I'm concerned it's a load of bullshit plain and simple. How many times did we hear Vader and palpy say they were going to turn Luke to the dark side? Was Obi-Wan full of it when he said Vader has been seduced by the dark side of the force? Was Yoda bulling Luke when he was lecturing him about the dark side? From the very first draft of Star Wars there was a light and dark side of the force and no amount of EU blatherings is going to change it.

Oh and as for the force lightning I think there is a light side version of it according to the EU but the new jedi just don't know about it. I'm pretty sure that in VOTF it talks about Yoda having a huge force battle against a dark sider using lightning among other things.

[His Divine Shadow]

Just because it came from Del ray and not the author doesn't mean I have to like it any more or not comment on it.

Del Rey? Do you think a couple of people not even in Lucasfilm sits around deciding what happens? Here, take this money and go buy a clue.

Del Rey are the publishers, just like in games there are developers and publishers, Lucasfilm(or Lucasbooks section) is involved with the story, Del Rey publishes the books.

As far as I'm concerned it's a load of bullshit plain and simple.

Sure, whatever, keep telling yourself that, proof? No, we would not dare ask that of you.

How many times did we hear Vader and palpy say they were going to turn Luke to the dark side?

The Darkside exists, in the person.

Was Obi-Wan full of it when he said Vader has been seduced by the dark side of the force?

You assume that Obi-wan knew the truth, we don't even know if the Sith knew the truth, to them and their limited understanding it was true.

Was Yoda bulling Luke when he was lecturing him about the dark side?

Assuming Yoda knew, wich is likely, and there is a reason why the Jedi would do that, because it would be too frickin dangerous, if even possible for any regular old jedi to fully understand the truth like Vergere and Jacen.

From the very first draft of Star Wars there was a light and dark side of the force and no amount of EU blatherings is going to change it.

In other words "LALALALA I CAAN'T HEAAR YOU!"

Oh and as for the force lightning I think there is a light side version of it according to the EU but the new jedi just don't know about it. I'm pretty sure that in VOTF it talks about Yoda having a huge force battle against a dark sider using lightning among other things.

So what?

And in the end, it just seems right somehow that the force is one, sides, pwah, what a childish primitive and human concept in the face of the force, it's almost insulting.
The force is truth, the force is lies, at the same time.

Oh and:

Pg. 145-146: One of those massive bipedal tentacle-faced predators lunged out of the shrub thicket with astonishing speed. It seized the nearest of the hoofed reptilians in powerful prehensile forepaws, its blade-tipped mouth-tentacles stabbing and sawing to swiftly slay and disjoint the captured animal, carving it into bite-sized hunks. As the rest of the herd bounded away, the predator settled down in the slanting sunlight to devour its kill.

"That is why this place is so dangerous," Vergere said with a hint of a challenging smile. "It is filled with what you would call the dark side. I should say: the dark side is very, very powerful here, more powerful than anywhere else on this planet. As powerful, perhaps, as it is anywhere in the galaxy."

Jacen lowered the electrobinoculars, blinking. "That's not the dark side," he said. "A predator hunts to feed itself and its family. That's just nature."

"And the dark side isn't? I thought the danger of the dark side was that it is natural: that's why it's easier than the light, yes?"

"Well, yes, but-"

"Is what you have seen not the exemplar of the dark side? Is this not what you fear so much: aggression, violence, passion?"

"You want to know what the real dark side would look like? If that predator had slaughtered the entire herd, just for the fun of it. For the joy of killing."

"Do you think this predator takes no joy in its successful kill?"

Jacen looked again through the electrobinoculars,watching for a moment as the predator seemed to shiver with delight in its meal. He didn't answer.

"Kill one, it's nature, kill them all, it's the dark side?" Vergere went on. "Is the line between nature and dark side only one of degree? Is it the dark side if that predator kills only half the herd? A quarter?"

He lowered the electrobinoculars once more. "It's the dark side if it kills more than it needs to feed itself and its family," he said, heating up. "That's the line. Killing when you don't need to kill."

Vergere cocked her head. "And how do you define need? Are we talking about the line of starvation, or simple malnutrition? Is it the dark side if they only eat half the slain animal? Does a predator partake of the dark side if its family is a few kilos overweight?"

"It's not about that-"

"Then what is it about? Are we back to why? Does intention always trump action? It's not the dark side for that predator, say, to slaughter the entire herd and leave them to rot, so long as it thinks it needs them for food?"

"It's not that simple," Jacen insisted. "And it's not always easy to describe-"

"But you know it when you see it, yes?"

He lowered his head stubbornly. "Yes."

Vergere uncoiled her fingers toward the blood-smeared predator on the slope below. "You didn't this time..."

(ref: Traitor)

Brain candy

[Darth Yoshi]

Whoa. MUST . . . BUY . . . TRAITOR ! ! !

[Crazy_Vasey]

Del Rey? Do you think a couple of people not even in Lucasfilm sits around deciding what happens? Here, take this money and go buy a clue.

Del Rey are the publishers, just like in games there are developers and publishers, Lucasfilm(or Lucasbooks section) is involved with the story, Del Rey publishes the books.

You think Lucasfilm give two shits about the NJO?

The Darkside exists, in the person.

They said the dark side of the force not the person. They seemed pretty explicit about that.

You assume that Obi-wan knew the truth, we don't even know if the Sith knew the truth, to them and their limited understanding it was true.

Typical. The Jedi and the Sith have studies the force for many millennia but along comes the smart ass EU character that character. Am I supposed to buy into this shit?

Assuming Yoda knew, wich is likely, and there is a reason why the Jedi would do that, because it would be too frickin dangerous, if even possible for any regular old jedi to fully understand the truth like Vergere and Jacen.

Whatever. This theory is nothing more than rehashes of an old idea from some comic book were a Jedi bought into this belief. Guess what? He ended becoming a dark jedi maybe a Sith. My memory is fuzzy on it, it’s in the NEGTC I think. Then there’s the Potentium stuff, dismissed as incorrect and dangerous as several of their followers fell to the dark side.

As for what you say about it being too dangerous for the old jedi, well what makes Jacen so much more capable of handling it than Luke? Pfft. Just another puffed up exaggerated EU character as far as I’m concerned.

In other words "LALALALA I CAAN'T HEAAR YOU!"

Forgive me if I’m wrong but aren’t the films and Lucas the absolute canon overriding the EU? So I’m correct in saying that the EU can say this as much as they want it’s still irrelevant and incorrect.

So what?

And in the end, it just seems right somehow that the force is one, sides, pwah, what a childish primitive and human concept in the face of the force, it's almost insulting.
The force is truth, the force is lies, at the same time.

The force is whatever Lucas says it is, Star Wars is his creation and his franchise the EU is nothing more than an interesting spin off.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

perfectIt appears we've come to a cross-roads here. On the one hand, Vegere's explanation of the Force does make perfect sense, ie- the Force is one. On the other hand we've got the movies (which are absolute canon) which says otherwise, but as Obi-Wan "So what I said was true, from a certain point of view." And I think we can learn a lot from the late Sir Alec Guiness's saying there.

So we then assume that it is possible that Yoda and Obi-Wan and Palpatine and Vader all knew this, but for whatever reason decided not to ever bring it up. Kinda strange, no? But, again if we look at it from a certain point of view (say Vegere's) it makes perfectsense.

I'm still, decidely, neutral on this subject, but perhaps somebody could start a new thread about this here.

[His Divine Shadow]

You think Lucasfilm give two shits about the NJO?

Don't you?

They said the dark side of the force not the person. They seemed pretty explicit about that.

They where all pretty vauge.

Typical. The Jedi and the Sith have studies the force for many millennia but along comes the smart ass EU character that character. Am I supposed to buy into this shit?

No, you've alreaby bought into the shit of the clumsy limited human notion of the force instead.

Whatever. This theory is nothing more than rehashes of an old idea from some comic book were a Jedi bought into this belief. Guess what? He ended becoming a dark jedi maybe a Sith. My memory is fuzzy on it, it’s in the NEGTC I think. Then there’s the Potentium stuff, dismissed as incorrect and dangerous as several of their followers fell to the dark side.

There is no Dark Side though, thats just feeble minds trying to put human terms and restrictions on what they don't fully understand.

As for what you say about it being too dangerous for the old jedi, well what makes Jacen so much more capable of handling it than Luke? Pfft. Just another puffed up exaggerated EU character as far as I’m concerned.

Because he, unlike the other, where taught in a way unlike any else, with pain, every lesson must be purchased with pain as it so clearly said.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but aren’t the films and Lucas the absolute canon overriding the EU? So I’m correct in saying that the EU can say this as much as they want it’s still irrelevant and incorrect.

There is no contradiction, infact looking at AOTC in particular, I am almost 99% sure that it was George Lucas himself who put that thing in there, it makes perfect sense and lines expertly up with the movie.

The force is whatever Lucas says it is, Star Wars is his creation and his franchise the EU is nothing more than an interesting spin off.

Sure, keep telling yourself that, somewhere else, prefferably in your own fantasyland where Lucasfilm policy doesn't exist.

[His Divine Shadow]

perfectIt appears we've come to a cross-roads here. On the one hand, Vegere's explanation of the Force does make perfect sense, ie- the Force is one. On the other hand we've got the movies (which are absolute canon) which says otherwise, but as Obi-Wan "So what I said was true, from a certain point of view." And I think we can learn a lot from the late Sir Alec Guiness's saying there.

Yes, and looking at AOTC, the lines are clearly blurred, I mean Yoda, great wise and compassionate sent thousands of clones to their deaths, he risked all their lives because he felt the Jedi where superior and more important than thousands of clone troopers, and it was true, they where, decidedly "Dark side" logic wouldn't you say?

In contrast, Count Dooku wanted Obi-wan to join instead of die, and even after he had defeated them both, he had a distinct sad look on his face when he knew he had to kill them.

So we then assume that it is possible that Yoda and Obi-Wan and Palpatine and Vader all knew this, but for whatever reason decided not to ever bring it up. Kinda strange, no? But, again if we look at it from a certain point of view (say Vegere's) it makes perfectsense.

I don't think Vader nor Palpatine understood, they where the products of their tutors, the original sith where ordinary jedi turned evil, the Dark Side seems like an excuse not to face what they really are.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Don't you?

I will when they actually do some quality control instead of churning out as many books as they humanly can before Star Wars finally hits the skids.

They where all pretty vauge.

Patience, my friend. In time he will seek you out. And when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force

Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

Seem pretty specific to me unless you believe that both Palpy and Ben are bulling for no real reason

No, you've alreaby bought into the shit of the clumsy limited human notion of the force instead.

No I’ve bought into the canon view of the force as put forward by the films not the view of the flavour of the week force user in the EU.

There is no Dark Side though, thats just feeble minds trying to put human terms and restrictions on what they don't fully understand.

Were you not listening? That guy believed exactly that and ended up falling to the dark side without even knowing about it.

Because he, unlike the other, where taught in a way unlike any else, with pain, every lesson must be purchased with pain as it so clearly said.

And Lukes training was just a cakewalk, learning the value of patience by getting the crap beaten out of him by Vader before having his beliefs spat on when he finds out Vader is his father was so easy. Of course his final trial to become a knight facing Palpatine and Vader was easier than Jacens lessons.

And I simply don’t buy that the only way to learn this new force thingy is through pan even if it was true. It sounds like something from the middle ages.

There is no contradiction, infact looking at AOTC in particular, I am almost 99% sure that it was George Lucas himself who put that thing in there, it makes perfect sense and lines expertly up with the movie.

Whatever you say.

Sure, keep telling yourself that, somewhere else, prefferably in your own fantasyland where Lucasfilm policy doesn't exist.

Which policy would this be? The canon policy that changes whenever a lucasfilm staff member is bored? The quality control that let some of the worst novels I’ve ever read be published as star wars? The continuity control that allowed about three different teams steal the death star plans?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

A question: Did Yoda send the clones just to save the Jedi, or was that a secondary objective, the primary one being to defeat the Sepratists? After all, Yoda might have thought the Jedi were doing fine (cough), and sent the clones just as a back-up, in case they weren't.

Now why exactly did the Council decide to send the Jedi? When a clone army was obvious available, albiet some time after the Jedi would arrive. I understand that they arrived as a plot pint to save Obi-Wan and Co., but the real reason is a mystery for me.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Yes, and looking at AOTC, the lines are clearly blurred, I mean Yoda, great wise and compassionate sent thousands of clones to their deaths, he risked all their lives because he felt the Jedi where superior and more important than thousands of clone troopers, and it was true, they where, decidedly "Dark side" logic wouldn't you say?

It was a war and that decision resulted in a major victory taking an important factory world of the separatists. You can’t fight a war by holding your troops back from danger.

In contrast, Count Dooku wanted Obi-wan to join instead of die, and even after he had defeated them both, he had a distinct sad look on his face when he knew he had to kill them.

We don’t know a great deal about Dookus motivations right now, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had turned in a misguided attempt to defeat the Sith from the inside to avenge his Padawans death.

I don't think Vader nor Palpatine understood, they where the products of their tutors, the original sith where ordinary jedi turned evil, the Dark Side seems like an excuse not to face what they really are.

Nah according to Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter Palpy had the same ideas on the force, nothing more than a tool with no light or dark sides.

[His Divine Shadow]

I will when they actually do some quality control instead of churning out as many books as they humanly can before Star Wars finally hits the skids.

Doesn't seem like they are doing that to me, then again, what do you know about quality? You're just another purist fanatic.

Seem pretty specific to me unless you believe that both Palpy and Ben are bulling for no real reason

No, I believe that this is what they believe, that it's truth, no one knows.

No I’ve bought into the canon view of the force as put forward by the films not the view of the flavour of the week force user in the EU.

No, you've not, since it's uncontradicted by the movies, it's actually canon, you've just chosen to selectively ignore evidence.

Were you not listening? That guy believed exactly that and ended up falling to the dark side without even knowing about it.

There is no Dark Side, that guy fell to himself and his own darkness, he was not ready, merely a child tampering with forces he could not possibly understand.

And Lukes training was just a cakewalk, learning the value of patience by getting the crap beaten out of him by Vader before having his beliefs spat on when he finds out Vader is his father was so easy. Of course his final trial to become a knight facing Palpatine and Vader was easier than Jacens lessons.

Luke's training was the basic quick learn lesson where he learned only the very basics of the old Jedi Order and their view on the force.

And I simply don’t buy that the only way to learn this new force thingy is through pan even if it was true. It sounds like something from the middle ages.

Read the book, then speak, otherwise, don't.
You have NO idea what you are speaking of here I see.
Oh the book so perfectly makes sense and if you don't read it, you will never understand.

Jacen says in the last pages "There's got to be a simpler way though" and Vergere says that maybe this is what he will teach her, now that her stundent has surpassed her.

Then again, this fits so much better for me, since I've seen so much in the books and movies that simply does not work with this primitive Dark/Light separation of the the force.

Which policy would this be? The canon policy that changes whenever a lucasfilm staff member is bored? The quality control that let some of the worst novels I’ve ever read be published as star wars? The continuity control that allowed about three different teams steal the death star plans?

The policy wich has stayed the same for the past several years you mean?
The quality control can't help if the writer sucks, it can only undo the worst offenses to continuity in the book, not stop it.
Three different teams? What the hell are you talking about?

[His Divine Shadow]

It was a war and that decision resulted in a major victory taking an important factory world of the separatists. You can’t fight a war by holding your troops back from danger.

A couple of flakburst from the Acclamators could have taken out the entire force with a few shots, there never was any need to even unload the troopers except for the few LAAT's sent to rescue the Jedi.

We don’t know a great deal about Dookus motivations right now, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had turned in a misguided attempt to defeat the Sith from the inside to avenge his Padawans death.

We know the truth, there is no Dark Side and this fits in perfectly, the forces of light and dark is a machination of man.

Nah according to Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter Palpy had the same ideas on the force, nothing more than a tool with no light or dark sides

Then he understood then, he still was evil, well atleast he accepted it as part of himself instead of blaiming some imagenery "Dark Side".