What was Yoda's plan?

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6487
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Galvatron »

Turin wrote:But why go through all the trouble of trying to turn back Vader if he doesn't think it makes a difference in some way (as I'm arguing, a metaphysical way), if he thinks he's going to be killed along with Vader and the Emperor?
Because it WOULD make a difference by then. The Death Star was a trap. The rebels were doomed. Vader was going to live. Therefore, it was once again worth Luke's effort to turn him away from the dark side.
User avatar
Turin
Jedi Master
Posts: 1066
Joined: 2005-07-22 01:02pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Turin »

Galvatron wrote:
Turin wrote:But why go through all the trouble of trying to turn back Vader if he doesn't think it makes a difference in some way (as I'm arguing, a metaphysical way), if he thinks he's going to be killed along with Vader and the Emperor?
Because it WOULD make a difference by then. The Death Star was a trap. The rebels were doomed. Vader was going to live. Therefore, it was once again worth Luke's effort to turn him away from the dark side.
If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15749
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Knife »

Turin wrote: If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?
You guys make my head hurt.

Luke was willing to die for his beliefs. That's the big choice, sacrifice. Vader was willing to kill anyone and destroy anything to save Padme, Luke was willing to die to save his father and to save his friends (and sister). With all the little by lines in the movies about the Force, it is easy to see how important that decision was in regards to a Light Side and a Dark Side.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Turin
Jedi Master
Posts: 1066
Joined: 2005-07-22 01:02pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Turin »

Knife wrote:Luke was willing to die for his beliefs.
And? That's what I've been arguing all along -- that there's a metaphysical reason why Luke wanted to turn Vader. Unless you assume that Luke thinks he's going to fail (which I don't think he does except for the one moment of weakness), there's no other point of him trying to turn Vader once he's on the Death Star.
User avatar
Tiriol
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2024
Joined: 2005-09-15 11:31am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Tiriol »

Turin wrote:
Knife wrote:Luke was willing to die for his beliefs.
And? That's what I've been arguing all along -- that there's a metaphysical reason why Luke wanted to turn Vader. Unless you assume that Luke thinks he's going to fail (which I don't think he does except for the one moment of weakness), there's no other point of him trying to turn Vader once he's on the Death Star.
And... what? Is it not enough of a reason that Luke believed that there still was something good left in his father, something that could bring Anakin back? Luke didn't have to believe in or know about the prophecy and the Chosen One's destiny; he appeared to want to redeem Vader independently of it. And quite frankly, that is, perhaps, part of the reason why it was Anakin, not Vader, whom Luke saw to die: ever since his childhood, everyone had expected Anakin to be the Chosen One, the person to re-balance the Force, the vanquisher of the Sith, the hero of the age, the greatest Sith Lord ever, the most potent apprentice candidate ever etc. Luke didn't know anything about that, and in fact did what he did DESPITE Vader's power and potential in the dark side. And while Kenobi and Yoda might have wanted Luke to resurrect the Jedi Order, Luke clearly had other plans (although he did urge Leia to continue where he left should he not return from his confrontation with Vader).
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!

The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Havok »

Knife wrote:
Turin wrote: If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?
You guys make my head hurt.

Luke was willing to die for his beliefs. That's the big choice, sacrifice. Vader was willing to kill anyone and destroy anything to save Padme, Luke was willing to die to save his father and to save his friends (and sister). With all the little by lines in the movies about the Force, it is easy to see how important that decision was in regards to a Light Side and a Dark Side.
Sacrifice is the wrong word there. Anakin was willing to sacrifice everything and everyone to to save Padme. The difference was he needed to be alive to do it.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6487
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Galvatron »

Turin wrote:If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?
Here's a thought: maybe Luke knew he had to manipulate Palpatine into attacking him in the same way he was goaded into doing the same thing by the emperor. That being the only way to force Vader into making a pivotal choice.

His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Havok »

Galvatron wrote:
Turin wrote:If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?
Here's a thought: maybe Luke knew he had to manipulate Palpatine into attacking him in the same way he was goaded into doing the same thing by the emperor. That being the only way to force Vader into making a pivotal choice.

His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.
Or Luke knew he was about to be smoked Jedi and cried out in desperation. :wink:
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Turin
Jedi Master
Posts: 1066
Joined: 2005-07-22 01:02pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Turin »

havokeff wrote:
Galvatron wrote:His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.
Or Luke knew he was about to be smoked Jedi and cried out in desperation. :wink:
Well, and we need to account for whatever precog is there, too. That's why I asked if there was anything in the novelization that gives a bit more insight into Luke's actual thoughts at the time.
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15749
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Knife »

havokeff wrote: Sacrifice is the wrong word there. Anakin was willing to sacrifice everything and everyone to to save Padme. The difference was he needed to be alive to do it.
True, let me edit that just a bit:

Self Sacrifice.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Havok »

Turin wrote:
havokeff wrote:
Galvatron wrote:His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.
Or Luke knew he was about to be smoked Jedi and cried out in desperation. :wink:
Well, and we need to account for whatever precog is there, too. That's why I asked if there was anything in the novelization that gives a bit more insight into Luke's actual thoughts at the time.
The only precog we see Luke have is when he is meditating and concentrating on it. I'm sure he has basic Jedi fighting precog, but assuming he knew what was going to happen when neither Yoda, Vader or Palpatine knew is a bit of a stretch.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Ender »

havokeff wrote:The only precog we see Luke have is when he is meditating and concentrating on it. I'm sure he has basic Jedi fighting precog, but assuming he knew what was going to happen when neither Yoda, Vader or Palpatine knew is a bit of a stretch.
Actually, in the ESB novel Luke has a series of dreams showing the torture of his friends at Cloud City, prompting him to go there. The movie trims around that and cuts to his final vision that has him make the decision, but ther eis the interesting parallel with Anakin there.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Havok »

Shit. Guess I have to read that again. :oops: Thanks Ender.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Turin
Jedi Master
Posts: 1066
Joined: 2005-07-22 01:02pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: What was Yoda's plan?

Post by Turin »

havokeff wrote:
Turin wrote:Well, and we need to account for whatever precog is there, too. That's why I asked if there was anything in the novelization that gives a bit more insight into Luke's actual thoughts at the time.
The only precog we see Luke have is when he is meditating and concentrating on it. I'm sure he has basic Jedi fighting precog, but assuming he knew what was going to happen when neither Yoda, Vader or Palpatine knew is a bit of a stretch.
The precog is probably a red-herring without direct evidence of it anyway, so nevermind that.

I think Tiriol is assuming that when I say there's a "metaphysical" goal that I'm talking about the whole prophesy of the Force that we hear about in the prequels, but that's not the case. I'm talking about redeeming Vader from the Dark Side for its own sake, even though he expects that everyone on the Death Star is going to be dead shortly. One can argue that eventually Luke doesn't believe that (although I'm not convinced it's more than a momentary loss of faith), but up until that point Luke is still trying to resist the Emperor and turn his father back. Which means that "saving the soul" of Vader is important for its own sake.

Now, whether that means that Yoda and Obi-wan think that is a whole other kettle of fish. They obviously don't think Vader can be turned back. I think it's easily possible they only care about destroying Palpatine and Vader, and if Luke survives "hey, bonus!"
Post Reply