The Nature of Palpatine

[Naja]

It would seem that there are two "camps" that see Palpatine in two drastically different ways. One camp (best articulated by Publius) sees Palpatine as nothing more than a supernaturally-enhanced malignant narcissist; he wants to enslave and absorb the universe simply because it gratifies his ego. The other camp posits that Palpatine saw himself as a "savior," who did what he did - at least in part - for some "greater good" (perhaps at an earlier point he did truly have ideals, and Plagueis simply used them to corrupt him?).

Which explanation seems more likely, and why?

[FTeik]

It is a combination of both.

Of course Palpatine viewed himself as a savior and benefactor of the universe. Problem is, when he says universe he means himself.

[Ghost Rider]

He's a twisted narcassist. Who cares if he says he did it for the greater good, no person truly views one as being evil. They always believe they do it for some betterment of something.

We judge a man by their actions and the things Palpatine did were explotative and deadly for nothing more then to progress himself to becoming the literal center of all things. To say he was doing some greater good is to ignore everything he did and view his actions with definitive rose tinted lenses.

[CDiehl]

Yes, Palpatine claimed he was acting for some noble-sounding reason. Hell, he even might have believed it on some level. However, the same can be said of any dictator that ever lived. They always portray themselves as heroes whose noble sacrifice for the cause is the terrible burden of absolute power. Also, whatever ideals he may have had when he was young were long gone by the time he planned to invent a war so he could have absolute power.

[Mange]

It would seem that there are two "camps" that see Palpatine in two drastically different ways. One camp (best articulated by Publius) sees Palpatine as nothing more than a supernaturally-enhanced malignant narcissist; he wants to enslave and absorb the universe simply because it gratifies his ego. The other camp posits that Palpatine saw himself as a "savior," who did what he did - at least in part - for some "greater good" (perhaps at an earlier point he did truly have ideals, and Plagueis simply used them to corrupt him?).

Which explanation seems more likely, and why?

I believe in both (mostly because I accept GL's explanation of Palpatine's motives).

[Naja]

Well, with all due respect I really don't see how it can be "both." While on the one hand I don't think they're completely mutually exclusive, it really is one or the other. Accumulating absolute power to "save" the galaxy implies that Palpatine is simply misled; on some level, he has aims higher than (or at least different from) his own aggrandizement. Accumulating absolute power for its own sake means that Palpatine is fully conscious of his needs and his reason for those needs; it's more "honest," in that he doesn't delude himself about why he seeks absolute dominion, but it's also more evil, in that it precludes a more "noble" rationale for his power hunger. It really is sort of one or the other because you can't have both.

[Eframepilot]

Well, with all due respect I really don't see how it can be "both." While on the one hand I don't think they're completely mutually exclusive, it really is one or the other. Accumulating absolute power to "save" the galaxy implies that Palpatine is simply misled; on some level, he has aims higher than (or at least different from) his own aggrandizement. Accumulating absolute power for its own sake means that Palpatine is fully conscious of his needs and his reason for those needs; it's more "honest," in that he doesn't delude himself about why he seeks absolute dominion, but it's also more evil, in that it precludes a more "noble" rationale for his power hunger. It really is sort of one or the other because you can't have both.

I think that Palpatine does delude himself. The dark side of the Force has shattering effects on the mind; just look at Anakin, blaming the Jedi for plotting to take over the Republic in one moment and planning to kill Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself in the next. Palpatine really does think that he is working for the greater good, just as Anakin did at the end of Episode III.

[Connor MacLeod]

Of course it could be both. Palpatine ran the Empire literally for decades (and was influencing matters even longer) and over that time he gradually descended into a force-inspired madness, so naturally his goals evolved along with him. His intentions early on may (or may not) have been "pure" (Saving the galaxy and accumulating power for himself are not mutually exclusive goals, ,after all. Indeed, they are quite compatible.) Attiributing good or bad motives to Palpatine's actions is purely a point of view matter (as mentioned, he certainly did not view himself as evil - a point I believe the ROTS Visual Dictionary in fact makes, but that doesnt mean he was a good guy.)

It should be noted his desire to "consume" the galaxy largely came about as a result of his growing madness (which ultimately brings us to the insane and rather pathetic "Dark Empire" Palpatine-vampire being, who has little if any bearing to the Palpatine we see in the prequels.)

[Connor MacLeod]

[I think that Palpatine does delude himself. The dark side of the Force has shattering effects on the mind; just look at Anakin, blaming the Jedi for plotting to take over the Republic in one moment and planning to kill Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself in the next. Palpatine really does think that he is working for the greater good, just as Anakin did at the end of Episode III.

The degernation of Palpatine's mind, like that of his body, came about from the extreme and prolonged usage of the Dark Side of the force. He literally "Burned the candle at both ends", which had the effect of enhacning the notion of him being a powerful Sith Lord (and explaining some of his extraordinary abilities) as well as for his rapid and violent degradation (which is actually a rarity among Sith as far as I remmber; only the Dathomiri witches came even close, and they were rather inefficient/low-end Force users, not experienced or disciplined Sith Lords.)

The accelerated decay brought on by his extreme force-usage no doubt also lead to his vampiric "life-draining" methods in order to stave off the decay of his life. I can hardly believe such actions would leave a person quite as sane as they would be without it. And once he started the whole "clone reincarnation" scheme, exposure to the Dark Side in a spirit form only enhanced his madness (something he actually feared on some level - perhaps a great irony that he was aware of what was happening and feared succumbing even further.)

[Tychu]

It would seem that there are two "camps" that see Palpatine in two drastically different ways. One camp (best articulated by Publius) sees Palpatine as nothing more than a supernaturally-enhanced malignant narcissist; he wants to enslave and absorb the universe simply because it gratifies his ego. The other camp posits that Palpatine saw himself as a "savior," who did what he did - at least in part - for some "greater good" (perhaps at an earlier point he did truly have ideals, and Plagueis simply used them to corrupt him?).

Which explanation seems more likely, and why?

well the question has to answers really
Palpatines clearly sees himself as the latter. No evil person in the history of evil persons ever saw themeselvs as Evil

as for the 2nd answer it is a persons honest opinon on what they think of Palpatine, i personally think the former. If i was in the Star Wars Universe and knew what he was planning i would have strapped a few nukes on a air car and slammed it into his hotel room. (kinda Machiavellian) as long as hes dead i dont care how many people i killed doing it

[Lord Revan]

The degernation of Palpatine's mind, like that of his body, came about from the extreme and prolonged usage of the Dark Side of the force. He literally "Burned the candle at both ends", which had the effect of enhacning the notion of him being a powerful Sith Lord (and explaining some of his extraordinary abilities) as well as for his rapid and violent degradation (which is actually a rarity among Sith as far as I remmber; only the Dathomiri witches came even close, and they were rather inefficient/low-end Force users, not experienced or disciplined Sith Lords.)

The accelerated decay brought on by his extreme force-usage no doubt also lead to his vampiric "life-draining" methods in order to stave off the decay of his life. I can hardly believe such actions would leave a person quite as sane as they would be without it. And once he started the whole "clone reincarnation" scheme, exposure to the Dark Side in a spirit form only enhanced his madness (something he actually feared on some level - perhaps a great irony that he was aware of what was happening and feared succumbing even further.)

kind of like Darth Nilihus? (though Nilihus' corruption had gone the point were "he" had no body in the traditional sense and "he" had to drain force to "live"(if you can call it living))

[K. A. Pital]

Palpatine did not have any concept of "greater good" except "what is good for me" and "the Sith shall rule the Galaxy". His personal beliefs which are spoken in private dialogues with Vader, etc. show that he didn't have any "good" idea that he strove for. It doesn't seem for a moment that Palpatine is self-delusional.

In this, he was possibly even worse than Hitler, who, it seems, was genuinely deluded.

[Cykeisme]

Palpatine did not have any concept of "greater good" except "what is good for me" and "the Sith shall rule the Galaxy". His personal beliefs which are spoken in private dialogues with Vader, etc. show that he didn't have any "good" idea that he strove for. It doesn't seem for a moment that Palpatine is self-delusional.

In this, he was possibly even worse than Hitler, who, it seems, was genuinely deluded.

The novel Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader seems to indicate about as much.


It's not implausible; I myself honestly wouldn't mind killing a few million people here and there, if it was the paltry cost of a foolproof plan that brought me into a state of absolute power over the Earth. The primary purpose would be domination and obtaining material wealth.

Before I'm derided, don't worry, I would also instate other SD.net patrons as regional governors with plenty of power and subjects to lord over. Except, of course, those who speak out against what I've said here.
To the gulags with the likes of you.

[Big Orange]

Palpatine just seemed evil for sake of being evil and he was only serving himself.

[Aasharu]

The degernation of Palpatine's mind, like that of his body, came about from the extreme and prolonged usage of the Dark Side of the force. He literally "Burned the candle at both ends", which had the effect of enhacning the notion of him being a powerful Sith Lord (and explaining some of his extraordinary abilities) as well as for his rapid and violent degradation (which is actually a rarity among Sith as far as I remmber; only the Dathomiri witches came even close, and they were rather inefficient/low-end Force users, not experienced or disciplined Sith Lords.)

The accelerated decay brought on by his extreme force-usage no doubt also lead to his vampiric "life-draining" methods in order to stave off the decay of his life. I can hardly believe such actions would leave a person quite as sane as they would be without it. And once he started the whole "clone reincarnation" scheme, exposure to the Dark Side in a spirit form only enhanced his madness (something he actually feared on some level - perhaps a great irony that he was aware of what was happening and feared succumbing even further.)

I'm probably wrong about this, and will soon get stomped, but I'm going to toss it out anyway.

Is it possible that, in terms of sheer force potential, Palpatine was rather mediocre, and so had to draw excessively upon the Dark Side in order to attain his level of power? You mentioned the Dathomiri witches as suffering from a similar decay, and while the Light-sided sisters were relatively weak, the Dark side sisters, (especially Gethzerion,) were able to perform with much greater skill.

[seanrobertson]

I'm probably wrong about this, and will soon get stomped, but I'm going to toss it out anyway.

That's ballsy. I like

Is it possible that, in terms of sheer force potential, Palpatine was rather mediocre, and so had to draw excessively upon the Dark Side in order to attain his level of power?

I'm tempted to say no. It seems to me that "drawing" the Force is itself a function of a user's innate Force potential.

Besides, I'm pretty sure a few sources note that Palpatine's Force potential is extraordinarily high.

[Aasharu]

You're probably right, as now that I think about it, I seem to recall a few of those sources as well.

But the question remains, why did the Dark Side affect Palpatine so severely? He never really performed any extremely difficult force tasks, and seemed to reserve using the force for deception. As Connor MacLeod mentioned, no other Sith Lord, (aside from Darth Nihilus, and he was something of a special case,) has exhibited such severe side effects.

Another theory, if we accept that both Nihilus and Palpatine are the only two Sith Lords to show such degradation: could it be that this "draining effect" only occurs when the force is severely unbalanced, such as it was during both the Jedi Civil War and the Rise of the Empire eras? In both periods, the Jedi were all but wiped out, with the last Jedi being hunted down. With such a severe imbalance, the consequences of drawing upon the Dark Side may be increased as well.

This would also help to account for the corrupting effect upon the Nightsisters. During that period, the force was in relative balance in the universe as a whole, but upon Dathomir, the Dark Side was prevalent. As Leia described it in The Courtship of Princess Leia;

"I see... drops of blood on a white tablecloth. No- more like sunspots, black against the brilliance. Only the black spots are filthier than that - loathsome..."

[CmdrWilkens]

The extreme corruption of Palpatine by the Dark Side I still see as due to an exhaustive overuse. Yes the sith had hid for a millenia when he was rising but at the same time he was trying to stay hidden from the Jedi order he was also casting a net wide enough to ensnare the entire galaxy while also subtley influeing decisions even after his final ascent. While I find the "Emperor is mind controlling everyone" explanation out of the Thrawn trilogy excessive that isn't to say that he hadn't spread himself throughout the entire military and civilian administration in an attempt to retain as direct a control as possible. The amount of energy and effort to achieve this would have dwarfed anything previously attempted given as it continued for the better part of 25 years at a minimum. When one considers the quintillions of beings likely to make up the Imperial hierarchy you can consider the cost of even subtley influencing them every day for a quarter century.

[FTeik]

I never bought into the idea of Palpatine being corrupted or degenerated through the DarkSide at least as far as his physical form is concerned and ROTS seemed to confirm this: Palpatine looks normal until his attempt of Force-lightning Mace Windu, who manages to direct Palpatine's energies back at him.

There is also a fine line with what we call the "madness" displayed in the DarkEmpire (and compare that to Palpatine during his battle against Yoda in ROTS) and his general plan for the galaxy and himself. We know, that originally Palpatine wanted to establish an empire and to pass it on to his apprentice even at the danger of his own peril (DL:RoDV), but how much this empire would have resembled the Sith-theocracy seen in DE is anyones guess.

[Gunhead]

I think Palpy went of the deep end after Windu attacked him. Before that he was really on top of the ball game. He had hid himself in plain view of the jedi. To the extent it could be said that it wasn't even the "shroud" that clouded the jedi. It was the jedi themselves who just didn't believe it to be possible. He dispersed the jedi by sending them to command the clone armies. He used the separatist threat to win over the senate. Oh yes. He was on fire.

I think him surviving Windu's attack gave him the final nudge. After that it was really the will of the force that he should bring order to the galaxy. In his mind it was meant to be. His original intentions might have even been quite admirable. Bring order to the galaxy, why not. Revitalize the failing republic, sure thing. But as things went forward, more and more enemies and obstacles appear. More and more he's drawn to act directly, bend the rules to his favor. All for a good cause of course. I'm not familiar with Palpy's earlier years, but a take an ambitious man, add the ability to use the force, sprinkle with conviction+drive and BLAMMO! Instant dark side.
If his intentions we're completely evil from the get go well all the easier,
but Palpy doesn't strike me as a man who was just evil.
Maybe after he got all the power he became just evil, but wasn't so from the start.

It's a bit telling he never really said he hated the jedi order, at least in the movies. They we're dealt with in a manner that one does with a foe you know you're going to have to tackle at some point.
Assasination.
He assasinated their leaders, rank & file, their future even their character.
And did so in public, even coming out and saying the jedi were traitors and had been dealt with.
I don't really think he gave two shits about the jedi or their code as such.
They just had to be removed because Palpy knew they'd try to oppose him at some point.

This is how I feel about his character, and while some this is surely not in accordance to SW canon. It doesn't bother me because I'm really trying to convey a feeling.

-Gunhead

[seanrobertson]

You're probably right, as now that I think about it, I seem to recall a few of those sources as well.

But the question remains, why did the Dark Side affect Palpatine so severely? He never really performed any extremely difficult force tasks, and seemed to reserve using the force for deception. As Connor MacLeod mentioned, no other Sith Lord, (aside from Darth Nihilus, and he was something of a special case,) has exhibited such severe side effects.

My guess: Hiding one's own Force potential/powers from other users is actually quite difficult and, over time, is tremendously taxing. Palpatine managed just that for decades on end.

Granted, he probably didn't come under significant scrutiny as the Senator of Naboo; hiding his Dark Side affinities from Jedi might've been trivial at that point.

But as he climbed the galactic political strata -- and especially by the time he occupied the chancellory -- he regularly dealt with, and actively deceived, the most powerful Jedi, none of whom had a clue as to his true self -- until, of course, he'd already sealed their fate.

There's also the so-called "shroud of the Dark Side" and Windu's dialogue about the Jedis' diminished Force-using abilities ("AOTC").

I don't know if Palpatine himself caused that, nor if we should interpret Windu's dialogue quite so literally; I'd have to look into past posts on the subject before I was willing to make any kind of real claim about that

What I will say is that if Palpatine even played some role therein, that and/or the effort of maintaining his "disguise" could've well caused some of his physical degredation.

Another theory, if we accept that both Nihilus and Palpatine are the only two Sith Lords to show such degradation: could it be that this "draining effect" only occurs when the force is severely unbalanced, such as it was during both the Jedi Civil War and the Rise of the Empire eras? In both periods, the Jedi were all but wiped out, with the last Jedi being hunted down. With such a severe imbalance, the consequences of drawing upon the Dark Side may be increased as well.

That's an interesting thought.

Oddly enough, it looks to me as if Palpatine was his most deformed in "ROTS," right before the Jedi Purge*. From what I see, he didn't look much more decrepit 30ish years later in "ROTJ". He did start to walk with a cane but, if anything, his face was less pallid and not as wrinkled in the latter film.

*On the other hand, I'm sure a lot of Jedi had died by that point in the war, and we do know that the Force was well out of "balance" well before the Clone Wars began. Your idea may have merit

This would also help to account for the corrupting effect upon the Nightsisters. During that period, the force was in relative balance in the universe as a whole, but upon Dathomir, the Dark Side was prevalent. As Leia described it in The Courtship of Princess Leia;

"I see... drops of blood on a white tablecloth. No- more like sunspots, black against the brilliance. Only the black spots are filthier than that - loathsome..."

Like Adam, I figured that the Nightsisters were simply not gifted enough with the Dark Side to use it without harming themselves. By contrast, Palpatine just used too heavily, too long -- if hiding himself from the Jedi or impairing their abilities are as Force-intensive as I imagine.

Still, what you're suggesting is interesting. We certainly know certain places (the cave on Dagobah) and even entire worlds (Dathomir, Byss) can be strong in the Dark Side. How those places, the relative "balance" of the Force and the consequences of using the Dark Side all come together could make for some really fascinating stuff.

[Publius]

It is an easy thing to mistake utopianism for altruism, but the two are in fact not the same. The desire to impose order on a disordered system is just as easily an expression of narcissism or megalomania as it is of a desire to do good (see for example the Count of Serenno, Anakin Skywalker, or Jerec, all of whom had millennial ambitions but very little in the way of compassion). Palpatine's desire to 'correct' the galaxy was an expression of his self-identification as the 'universal judge':

Here was Palpatine, with his ready smile; above corruption, above deception or duplicity, a kind of confessor, willing to hear the most banal confessions or the basest of misdeeds without passing judgment -- aloud, at any rate. For in his heart he judged the universe on his own terms, with a clear sense of right and wrong.

He looked to no other guide than himself. {Cloak of Deception}

Sidious does not consider himself evil but rather a savior. After the destruction of the Jedi order, he has no need to reveal his Sith identity, for he is now the beloved Emperor Palpatine, who has restored peace to the galaxy. {Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary}

For his soul was the black center of the Empire.

He contemplated the dense impenetrability fo the deep space beyond the window. Densely black as his soul -- as if he were, in some real way, this blackness; as if his inner spirit was itself this void over which he reigned. He smiled at the thought: he was the Empire; he was the Universe. {Return of the Jedi}

In short, you create a false dichotomy by claiming that he must either be a malignant narcissist or a messianic restitutor mundi. He was both. He regarded himself as being absolutely and objectively correct; therefore what could be better than to be molded into his conception of the perfect universe? From his perspective, people ought to be grateful for being dominated and then consumed by him.

[K. A. Pital]

What is that, did Palpatine not reveal he's Sith? I thought the E III record and all later Palpatine actions including the publicity of Sith Lord Darth Vader made it pretty clear that he was Sith, officially, and no one in the entire Republic/Empire simply gave a damn because Sith are an old legend...

[Ghost Rider]

What is that, did Palpatine not reveal he's Sith? I thought the E III record and all later Palpatine actions including the publicity of Sith Lord Darth Vader made it pretty clear that he was Sith, officially, and no one in the entire Republic/Empire simply gave a damn because Sith are an old legend...

Pretty much. Palpatine wasn't revealed as a Sith, even durning the height of the Empire, Vader was the public noted Jedi/Sith/Force figure with the New Order.

[K. A. Pital]

What about the Stover record when the Jedi attacked him in RotS? It seemed pretty obvious that he admitted to being Sith, or at least belonging to Sith teachings.