Starfighter accelerations

[Fifthman]

According to Wookieepedia, the X-wing's maximum acceleration is listed at 3,700 G. The TIE/In's maximum acceleration is listed at 4,100 G. Other starfighter accelerations are listed in the thousands of Gs. Are these correct? If so, then are there any film examples of starfighters performing combat maneuvers at maximum G, or close to it? Or are combat maneuvers made at lower accelerations?

If Star Wars starfighters really can maneuver at these accelerations then they can outmaneuver anything any other universe can throw at them So much for making a starfighter tier list.

[Azron_Stoma]

generally they don't accelerate that fast during combat for several reasons, not least of which being the risk of crashing into objects that are relatively slow or within close proximity, but also Imperial Jamming can cause them to have a massive reduction in engine performance.

we have some scenes such as the X-wings approach to the Death Star over Yavin, they covered hundreds of thousands of kilometers in under 5 minutes, requiring at Least 1,000g acceleration so 3,700 is perfectly within that margin.

this also doesn't take into account that a 3 second burst from a TIE fighter unloads more firepower than the Fat Man Nuke did over Nagasaki.

or that a starfighter launched Concussion missile is worth at least 3 Tzar bombas due to the shaped charge alone (possibly even more due to the concentration of the blast)

making it about equal to a 300 mt nuke, despite having only half the yield.

in Babylon 5 terms, an X-wing firing a pair of Concussion missiles is the equal to or greater than one of those Centauri Nukes that G'kar gave them at the end of Season 3.

that is if my math is right.

[Wyrm]

generally they don't accelerate that fast during combat for several reasons, not least of which being the risk of crashing into objects that are relatively slow or within close proximity, but also Imperial Jamming can cause them to have a massive reduction in engine performance.

I think that interference with sensors is sufficient to explain the lack of acceleration in combat. We know that there was interference around the Death Star ("There's too much interference!"), and if your sensors are boggled, it's too easy to blunder into the surface, as poor Porkins did.

[Simon_Jester]

this also doesn't take into account that a 3 second burst from a TIE fighter unloads more firepower than the Fat Man Nuke did over Nagasaki.

or that a starfighter launched Concussion missile is worth at least 3 Tzar bombas due to the shaped charge alone (possibly even more due to the concentration of the blast)

making it about equal to a 300 mt nuke, despite having only half the yield.

Remind me again how we know those things? I forgot.

[Fifthman]

I realized I'm missing something. The equation for centripetal acceleration is a = v^2/r. I'm looking for a typical maneuvering turning radius. When they say "Attack Speed", how fast are they going?

[Ford Prefect]

If Star Wars starfighters really can maneuver at these accelerations then they can outmaneuver anything any other universe can throw at them

Don't be daft. There are capital ships in other universes with higher demonstrated accelerations than even the 5000 gees of the Aethersprite from Attack of the Clones. A goa'uld mothership pulls something like twenty or thirty thousand in an episode of Stargate: SG-1.

[Batman]

Linear acceleration is not the same as maneuverability and Ford is right. Current Perryverse Earth capships can accelerate at 10,000 gees and that's about a TENTH of what they USED to be able to do. Outmaneuver every other universe my ass.

[Fifthman]

Hm. Never heard of Perryverse, and I haven't seen enough of Stargate. Still, why wouldn't acceleration be a measure of maneuverability? The only other quality that would contribute to maneuverability would be attitude adjustments with either control surfaces or RCS thrusters. What else would contribute to maneuverability?

[Connor MacLeod]

Even if its a universe they can outrun that doesn't neccesarily mean they have the endurance to do it forever. Reaction drives are very energy-intensive and they couldn only put up with max power burns for os long before running out of fuel.
Moreover, the power applied to engines is power taken away from weapons.

really, sublight acceleration is one of those capabilities that can be important in some cases, but is overrated in many, much like weapons ranges are (Universes with light minutes range like Andromeda or the honorverse). SW's FTL ability is not neccesarily the MOST precise in the universe, but it can be used to make hit and runa ttacks really well and neutralize alot of acceleration/range advantages when emploed properly.

[Fifthman]

FTL boom and zoom sounds pretty interesting. Drop down to sublight, fire some missiles and maybe close the distance for a guns kill before jumping out to hyperspace/warp in order to line up for another attack run.

Still, I'm asking about because I'd like to start comparing starfighters to each other and start ranking them. I'm placing so much emphasis on acceleration because I'm under the impression that acceleration determines how tightly a given fighter can change its direction.

By the way, how many people would be interested in a starfighter ranking project in OSF? Considering that the forum seems to likes universe-vs-universe arguments, I'm hoping that there would be people here that would like to have their opinions heard on how a BSG Viper stands up against a B5 Starfury, or argue for their favorite starfighter's superiority over any other.

[Azron_Stoma]

both B5 Starfuries and BSG Vipers lack Inertial Dampeners/Acceleration Compensators to my knowledge, (at least the old BSG Vipers seemed to, when the pilots reacted to the G-Forces as they launched, Haven't watched much of the nBSG) dunno if Mimbari fighters do or not but most B5 fighters such as Narn, Earth Force and Centauri lack Inertial dampeners.

a lack of such devices places a considerable limitation to the Gs they can pull, down to low double digits (and even then, anything above 10 or 12 is going to be extremely uncomfortable and won't be for very long)

so B5 and BSG fighters are definitely on the low tier when it comes to that sort of thing, around the area of Gundams and Veritech fighters at best.

Star Wars Fighters would probably be top tier in terms of mainstream sci-fi, most things that are better only exist in novels.

[Fifthman]

I remember reading in multiple places (Rebellion Era Sourcebook, Wookieepedia) that TIE/In fighters don't have life support. Is inertial compensation included in life support?

Even if they aren't, though, I'd still put Star Wars fighters at top tier, at least in a guns fight. Even if a TIE didn't have inertial compensation, the pilots can still presumably pull 10+ Gs just like any pilot. Firepower becomes the dominant factor; both Macross Valkyries and Vipers use autocannons that can barely even hit 1 GW, and B5 cannons output anything between 10 and 500 GW. Laser cannon firepower is on the order of thousands of gigawatts.

Which brings me to weapons effectiveness, but I'll start another thread when I'm not sleepy.

[Napoleon the Clown]

TIEs have inertial dampers, yes. They're also capable of pulling a few thousand g. Life support is heating and air.

[Simon_Jester]

Even if its a universe they can outrun that doesn't neccesarily mean they have the endurance to do it forever. Reaction drives are very energy-intensive and they couldn only put up with max power burns for os long before running out of fuel.
Moreover, the power applied to engines is power taken away from weapons.

really, sublight acceleration is one of those capabilities that can be important in some cases, but is overrated in many, much like weapons ranges are (Universes with light minutes range like Andromeda or the honorverse). SW's FTL ability is not neccesarily the MOST precise in the universe, but it can be used to make hit and runa ttacks really well and neutralize alot of acceleration/range advantages when emploed properly.

My impression is that it's great for running, but not necessarily so hot for hitting; dropping out of hyperspace right on top of your target and not allowing them time to react can be tricky, as "You have failed me for the last time" Ozzel demonstrated so effectively at Hoth.

[McC]

...dunno if Mimbari fighters...

Minbari

[andrewgpaul]

To be fair to Azron_Stoma, the word always did seem to be pronounced "Mimbari".

[Balrog]

generally they don't accelerate that fast during combat for several reasons, not least of which being the risk of crashing into objects that are relatively slow or within close proximity, but also Imperial Jamming can cause them to have a massive reduction in engine performance.

we have some scenes such as the X-wings approach to the Death Star over Yavin, they covered hundreds of thousands of kilometers in under 5 minutes, requiring at Least 1,000g acceleration so 3,700 is perfectly within that margin.

There is also I believe the targeting computer when they're in the trench, which displays the distance to the exhaust shaft in meters IIRC. Don't know what thread it was, but when the math was done I believe it showed that the X-wings were going something like several kilometers a second.

There are other movie examples too, various craft being able to exit planetary atmospheres in a matter of seconds/minutes, Londo in the MF escaping from the DSII as it exploded, etc. But yeah, it's a bit hard to be doing extreme accelerations when you're inside an unusually dense asteroid field, or flying through a crowded space battle.

[AdmiralKanos]

We've never seen a pair of SW starfighters dogfighting in open space, have we? It seems that they're always near something: asteroids, capships, a Death Star, etc.

[Connor MacLeod]

My impression is that it's great for running, but not necessarily so hot for hitting; dropping out of hyperspace right on top of your target and not allowing them time to react can be tricky, as "You have failed me for the last time" Ozzel demonstrated so effectively at Hoth.

You need certain things to make it work consistently:

1.) Good reflexes (idealy automated) and/or a slowed down hyperdrive (some at least seem to vary speed, but the extent of this capability is unknown)

2.) Good navigational capability, which is a combination of sensors (FTL and normal) and a good nav computer (to calculate)


It has been pulled off: The Falcon pulled a 2 light minute microjump to within less than a kilometer of a SSD in Tyrant's Test. The Errant Venture microjumped in to point blank range between Vong warships in the NJO, and the Liberty microjumped into an Imperial fleet to destroy an escort before jumping back out (as a means of encouraging pursuit) in the Rebel campaign for XvT Balance of Power. The Rebel fleet helping Mon Calamari pulled off a point blank attack on the Imperial communications ship in Dark Empire as well.

the Problems come in several ways: If you're in a place with alot of navigational hazards it can be dangerous (IE bypassing a asteroid field, etc.) and as you noted if you have bad information you can collide with something (Admiral Griff's ISDs smashing inot the Exeuctor in the Archie Goodwin comics.) Additionally, your enemies can if their computers or sensors are good enough they can either track your departure and follow (Balance of Power, but also implied in ANH - the Falcon Escaping Tattooine - and TESB with the Falcon escaping Death Squadron) or detect your arrival (TESB when the Rebels detected Death Squadron arriving, as on the site.)

In Star Wars you only ever see it used in a "hit and run" fashion when by surprise (the Liberty), when your opponents can't detect you (possibly the Vong, although they have hyperdrive and supposedly have good sensors but thats debatable). The latter is especially relevant to sensor detection. Active sensing gives you a better chance of plotting an accurate jump, but it can give you away to the enemy as well if they can detect the signals. Using passive sensors is a bit better, but more often than not this ismply means passive EM sensors, which has a time lag issue (CF Tyrant's test) which means that you run the risk of your jump being screwed up (because the info is miniutes in the past) - its only really good relative to a failry stationary object.) I should note here that in Dark Empire that the communications ships have been homed in on by their FTL signals, so beacons are another possibility (probes, drones, etc.)

Even then, Hyperdrive still allows the enemy to basically dictate the range and location of combat (so long as you're aware reinforcements could arrive.) even if its just an initial advantage. Against other universes, it depends on how you answer the above questions (plus as well the nature of the combat tactics and capability of the other targets.)

[McC]

There is also I believe the targeting computer when they're in the trench, which displays the distance to the exhaust shaft in meters IIRC. Don't know what thread it was, but when the math was done I believe it showed that the X-wings were going something like several kilometers a second.

This would be the post you're looking for.

My conclusion was that both the X- and Y-wings (Gold Leader, Red Leader, and Luke) are doing ~ 2.3±0.1km/s.

[Connor MacLeod]

We've never seen a pair of SW starfighters dogfighting in open space, have we? It seems that they're always near something: asteroids, capships, a Death Star, etc.

Within its own universe and tech base you're basically right. They only bother coming out of hyperspace near targets worth fighting over, and then they do it as close as they can. Thats why we rarely see 'multi light second" combat ranges I imagine, they don't NEED to fight that far away unless they choose to.

We have seen a few cases of "relativisitc" combat, like in Star by Star (and IIRC it happened in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor) but those were basically exceptional cases. We've seen longer range combat in isolated, single ship cases (pursuits or such) but not beyond that. The old SWRPG did imply they could engage at high velocities (thousands of km/s) if they chose, but thta probably wasn't common.

[McC]

This was spurred by digging up that old thread in my prior post. Since the DS is roughly spherical, with a radius of 80km, you can actually calculate the centripetal/fugal acceleration required to maintain this relative speed while circumnavigating it. Only works out to about 6.7 Gs ((2.3 km/s)^2 / 80km / 9.8E-3 km/s^2), though.

Coupled with "We're going in, we're going in full throttle", the lack of variance in the actual trench run speed, and the fact of 3,500 G capability (inferred from/confirmed by the Yavin surface to DS surface flight time), continues to bug me, 5 years later.

[Connor MacLeod]

Why should it be a problem? The DS may not have an atmosphere but its going to be like a planetary enviroment from the POV of combat, so why would you use "open space" criteria? I don't think I'd want to blast along at thousands of gravities close up to an airless lunar enviroment either, nevermind something built up like the Death Star.

[McC]

Why should it be a problem? The DS may not have an atmosphere but its going to be like a planetary enviroment from the POV of combat, so why would you use "open space" criteria? I don't think I'd want to blast along at thousands of gravities close up to an airless lunar enviroment either, nevermind something built up like the Death Star.

It's only a problem insofar as I have no idea what "full throttle" actually means in the context Luke uses it. Generally speaking, "full throttle" implies that you're not holding anything back from your thrust capability. It's rather clearly not "full linear thrust capability," which is what one would normally assume.

[Darth Wong]

Since he's obviously moving at constant speed in the trench, should we infer that "full throttle" just meant that they would use full throttle for the initial approach to the trench? There are a lot of reasons why it might be dangerous to go really fast inside a trench. Also, while he said "That oughta keep those fighters off our backs", it obviously didn't, and Vader was able to catch up to them easily. It only kept them clear during the initial approach.