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Channel72 wrote: Eh... sort of. Luke deflects a series of blaster bolts after like... what? A brief nudge from Obi Wan? He was able to do it when he put on the blaster helmet and stopped relying on his vision, meaning that he sort of just intuitively used the force. Rey does something similar when she pulls the move with the Falcon - she can't see what's going on and is forced to sort of just rely on intuition to pull off that move where she aligns Finn's gun. It's really more or less the same thing.

I can appreciate the point that Luke at least had a mentor around to point him in the right direction. But Obi Wan barely gave Luke any practical training. He mostly just informed him about the existence of the Force, and showed him a useful trick (rely on intuition over vision). Rey didn't have an Obi Wan figure around, but instead she sort of just intuitively picked up on basic Force usage through interacting with Ren. I can grant that having a mentor figure in the script definitely helps with plausibility - but like, given how little Obi Wan actually did, it only barely helps differentiate Luke and Rey. Like, how did Luke even know telekenesis would be possible when he tried to summon the lightsaber in ESB? He obviously just somehow intuitively knew. At least Rey intellectually knew what the Force could do, since Ren used it on her many times.

I mean, the OT clearly shows us that a lot of basic Force usage is about feelings and intuition. The difference is Luke had Obi Wan nudging him along, whereas Rey was forced to rely on intuition and feeling by her circumstance.

Luke never had a powerful Force user muck around in his head, either. Frankly I don't see why its a problem that Rey is afforded the opportunity to do things intuitively as opposed to under the (meagre) instruction Luke received from Obi-Wan. Who gives a shit?

ray245 wrote:This also undermine the difficulties of mastering the force. The greatest challenge Luke had was learning to let go and trust his feelings.

A couple things. One, using the Force as a blunt force weapon doing basic Jedi things is not Mastery. Rey's little adventure does nothing to undermined that unless your inner thinking was it took a decade of meditation to be able to levitate a pencil before they can do other shit. Rey is obviously supposed to be very strong in the Force and it can 'leak out', 'burst out', or what ever descriptor you want to put on it.

Even if the first part is true, and I don't particularly think it is, Luke's issues do not have to be Rey's issue. If Luke's biggest challenge was letting go, Anakin's was restraint. It came to easy to Anakin. Rey's may be one, the other, or something different. Seriously, thought some of you thought this movie was too close to ANH, let the different parts be different.

Letting go isn't supposed to be something easy for any Jedi wannabe to achieve.

Say's who? And why is 'letting go' the thing to do?' You're extrapolating one line from Ben in ANH to the whole organization. Obi wan should have been telling Anakin to restrain himself more often, not 'let go'.

And in general, not necessary to Ray, the lightsaber fight issue. As far back as ANH novelization, it was clear that besides the actual sabers clashing, there were underlying Force attack and defense going on. I've read a couple people refer to it as jamming and counter jamming using the Force. There is also the AOTC novelization where it describes Obi Wan becoming one with the Force and thusly one with the room and the droids and the controls, and the furniture, etc... knowing where everything was and would be in the next second. If Rey had her first true 'immersed in the Force moment' and just knew what was going on, where, and how coupled with a burst of raw emotion through the Force assaulting Ren, even if unintentional, can easily account for all of that. A Master like Yoda could have probably seen it coming and dodged it, set it aside, or countered it, but Ren is hardly a Master.

While obviously training with a weapon is handy and muscle memory and experience on moves and tactics with it would be beneficial, there are other things going on in a Jedi v Jedi lightsaber fight that don't really rely on the most effective way to lunge and parry.

Knife wrote:And in general, not necessary to Ray, the lightsaber fight issue. As far back as ANH novelization, it was clear that besides the actual sabers clashing, there were underlying Force attack and defense going on. I've read a couple people refer to it as jamming and counter jamming using the Force. There is also the AOTC novelization where it describes Obi Wan becoming one with the Force and thusly one with the room and the droids and the controls, and the furniture, etc... knowing where everything was and would be in the next second. If Rey had her first true 'immersed in the Force moment' and just knew what was going on, where, and how coupled with a burst of raw emotion through the Force assaulting Ren, even if unintentional, can easily account for all of that. A Master like Yoda could have probably seen it coming and dodged it, set it aside, or countered it, but Ren is hardly a Master.

While obviously training with a weapon is handy and muscle memory and experience on moves and tactics with it would be beneficial, there are other things going on in a Jedi v Jedi lightsaber fight that don't really rely on the most effective way to lunge and parry.

I was about to make this point, but I'm glad you've made it for me. It's as though training with respect to lightsabre dueling isn't a strong indicator of one's ability. This is directly contrary to our intuition -- you wouldn't expect a tennis match to be won by the raw (but talented) athlete who's never picked up a racquet, for example -- but several examples in the canon bear it out. Ignoring Rey v. Kylo Ren for the moment: Luke is able to defeat (an apparently conflicted) Vader in RotJ; Anakin is able to defeat Dooku (who has decades of training behind him), and was able (as a teenager) to hold his own against him in AotC.

What does seem to make the major difference is one's mastery of the Force, as well as how "strong" with the Force an individual is. In a fight between a Force user versus a non-Force user, the battle would take place on only one level, the physical. So training would definitely matter, though I would tend to think that a Force user, untrained in lightsabre combat, would still have a huge innate advantage over a non-Force user, since the Force grants precognitive and physical advantages which can't be countered without the Force. Similarly, a Force user should just be able to use any of the other tricks in his repertoire (such as telekinetically disarming his opponent, or tossing him around like a rag doll) since his opponent will have no defence against them.

For lightsabre combat between Force users, though, things get more interesting. You can get fights happening on multiple levels, all but one of which are unseen by an outside observer. When Obi-Wan and Anakin take on Dooku in RotS, in one phase of the fight Dooku is able to hold off Obi-Wan by suspending him in mid-air. My interpretation of this is that at this point in the fight, Dooku had been able to overcome Obi-Wan's higher-level defences. It's for this reason that Dooku didn't simply lead with this tactic against his opponents, effectively pushing the "instant-win" button; he had to defeat those defences first, and that took some doing.* Erecting these defences might be an "automatic" function of Force users, with the strength of them having a theoretical maximum (again) defined by how "strong" with the Force they are, further constrained by their amount of training (or at least awareness). An example of this: Rey can't defend herself against being thrown up against the tree when she and Finn are confronted by Kylo Ren, but (presumably) she is not vulnerable to the same tactic once she has her "awakening" in the middle of the duel. This is not explicit in the film -- there's no indication that Ren tried the "throw" again, but he clearly didn't succeed if he did -- but it fits the facts.

*...This could also be explained by Dooku's admission that he had been "looking forward to this", and therefore wanted to fight rather than push the "instant win" button, but I think it makes more sense that that option simply wasn't available to him at that time.

SCCrawl wrote:I was about to make this point, but I'm glad you've made it for me. It's as though training with respect to lightsabre dueling isn't a strong indicator of one's ability. This is directly contrary to our intuition -- you wouldn't expect a tennis match to be won by the raw (but talented) athlete who's never picked up a racquet, for example -- but several examples in the canon bear it out.

Yeah - it's almost as if this "Force" thing was just created by a Hollywood script writer who wanted to write stories about good overcoming evil, and underdogs overcoming giants.

The Force is literally the mother of all plot devices, but I still love it. It basically codifies standard Hollywood writing indulgences as a Cosmological constant.

Channel72 wrote:

SCCrawl wrote:I was about to make this point, but I'm glad you've made it for me. It's as though training with respect to lightsabre dueling isn't a strong indicator of one's ability. This is directly contrary to our intuition -- you wouldn't expect a tennis match to be won by the raw (but talented) athlete who's never picked up a racquet, for example -- but several examples in the canon bear it out.

Yeah - it's almost as if this "Force" thing was just created by a Hollywood script writer who wanted to write stories about good overcoming evil, and underdogs overcoming giants.

Well, of course it's a plot device. But a great deal of this site's raison d'etre is in-universe analysis, rather than waving our hands and saying that everything is due to writers' fiat. If we wanted to stop there, we would just make this a literary forum and debate over our favourite poetry.

^
Yeah - but I wanted to highlight that anyway, since it's relevant towards the whole Luke vs Rey debate going on here. There's really very little difference between the two, in terms of their journey towards becoming a Force-using hero, both from a writing perspective and from an in-Universe analysis. The biggest difference really is that Luke had a mentor who gave him a quick "The Force for Dummies™" introduction. Rey didn't have that - she had to pick up on it mostly by example. And I admit that some of the things Rey did seem a bit of a stretch - the "Jedi mind trick" she pulled was probably the biggest stretch, in my opinion - mostly because it's unclear how Rey would even know this was possible. But then, how the fuck did Luke know telekinesis was possible when he tried summoning the lightsaber in the Wampa cave? Who knows... the Force obviously "works" with the individual user in terms of intuitive understanding.

It's just that I see a much bigger willingness to "fill in the blanks" for Luke, but not for Rey.

Luke also had three years to experiment on developing his talents between films. The old EU had plenty of examples of this, but even though they are no longer part of the canon we must assume that he must have had some interesting adventures, being a full-time member of the Rebellion. (Han Solo mentions just one of his, the "...bounty hunter [they] ran into on Ord Mantell...", so there's some canon evidence for this.) With necessity being the mother invention, he probably discovered some of these abilities as solutions to real-world problems.

I do admit that the "mind trick" revelation is a little hard to swallow. That seems like a fairly subtle manipulation, which a raw Force user such as Rey would have a hard time developing on her own, on the fly, with no supervision. Luke managed it during his time between tESB and RotJ, but (a) he had about six months to do so, and (b) he had a firm, positive example to work with: Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH. Rey's only inkling that such a thing was possible was Kylo Ren's interrogation, unless the "mind trick" was one of the stories about the Jedi she had heard of.

One could make the argument that even as isolated as her upbringing was, Rey had heard "the stories" (this was left open) about what the Force made possible, so the "Jedi mind trick" wasn't too far removed, once she accepted the idea that she could tap into it (or as a "hail Mary" pass?).

[Edit: or I could finish reading your post first....}

This review is too long to quote, but I found it an entertaining read partially because it's less of a review and more of a rebuttal to many of the same criticisms of the movie that have been mentioned in this thread.

AT LONG LAST…MY “STAR WARS: EPISODE VII” REVIEW. THE FORCE AWAKENS & THE RISE OF IDIOT JOURNALISM.

As the writer says, "Thus, this article is not intended to review 'The Force Awakens'. It’s intended to rip the head off the Huffington Post’s dumb-ass review and shit down its still-gasping esophagus."

Khaat wrote:One could make the argument that even as isolated as her upbringing was, Rey had heard "the stories" (this was left open) about what the Force made possible, so the "Jedi mind trick" wasn't too far removed, once she accepted the idea that she could tap into it (or as a "hail Mary" pass?).

[Edit: or I could finish reading your post first....}

As we known from Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, believing you can do something with the Force is very important to being able to do it.

Just so we're clear, the planet where the crew meets Maz Kanata is in a different system than the Republic planets that were destroyed by the Starkiller base right? Did JJ just blatantly violate another law of physics? Because I'd imagine that it would take several years for light from one system to travel to another meaning they wouldn't see the destruction of the Republic planets for years to come.

This topic has been gone over a lot. My understanding is that yes, they are different systems, but I don't see how it violates physics any more than hyperspace or the Force does.

The Romulan Republic wrote:This topic has been gone over a lot. My understanding is that yes, they are different systems, but I don't see how it violates physics any more than hyperspace or the Force does.

Wait, I understand the giant laser travels through hyperspace but the blowing up of the planets? I can handwave the idea that the laser may inherit magical properties via hyperspace and can be viewed throughout the galaxy almost instantaneously but the planets themselves blowing up should be largely invisible.

About the mind trick thing. I always figured that the reason why Rey thought it might work was because not too long before that she had a guy attempting to break into her mind using the force. So she figured she'd give it a try.

The techniques were different.

And I don't think imitating Kylo Ren is the best way to learn how to use the Force. Probably end up going Dark Side.

Regarding Rey's skill, while it was a bit much, I think that once you are aware of the basic nature of the Force, and overcome any self-imposed psychological hurdles (like Luke with the X-wing on Dagobah), it doesn't actually take that much training to learn how to use the Force. The decades of training for Jedi in the Old Republic was probably more about indoctrination, and having to teach almost everything to young Jedi in training, as they were brought in as small children.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:This topic has been gone over a lot. My understanding is that yes, they are different systems, but I don't see how it violates physics any more than hyperspace or the Force does.

Wait, I understand the giant laser travels through hyperspace but the blowing up of the planets? I can handwave the idea that the laser may inherit magical properties via hyperspace and can be viewed throughout the galaxy almost instantaneously but the planets themselves blowing up should be largely invisible.

Welcome to several pages and a few weeks ago.

Short answer: hyperspacey-wimey balls and don't think about it too much.

Galvatron wrote:This review is too long to quote, but I found it an entertaining read partially because it's less of a review and more of a rebuttal to many of the same criticisms of the movie that have been mentioned in this thread.

AT LONG LAST…MY “STAR WARS: EPISODE VII” REVIEW. THE FORCE AWAKENS & THE RISE OF IDIOT JOURNALISM.

As the writer says, "Thus, this article is not intended to review 'The Force Awakens'. It’s intended to rip the head off the Huffington Post’s dumb-ass review and shit down its still-gasping esophagus."

So a movie plot hole isn't if it might be addressed in 3-6 years in another movie (or book)?
It's 1999 all over again! Seriously though, anybody know if the other two stories are already written or are TPTB following the proud SW tradition of making it up as they go along?

I imagine they have an idea of the stories they want to tell for the next few years, even if it's as barebones as which characters in which film.

Gandalf wrote:I imagine they have an idea of the stories they want to tell for the next few years, even if it's as barebones as which characters in which film.

I find that hard to believe when most of TFA's plot is about copy ANH as much as possible. There's very little original thinking involved. Thank god Abrams is gone from the franchise.

ray245 wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I imagine they have an idea of the stories they want to tell for the next few years, even if it's as barebones as which characters in which film.

I find that hard to believe when most of TFA's plot is about copy ANH as much as possible. There's very little original thinking involved. Thank god Abrams is gone from the franchise.

What the fuck are you talking about?

ray245 wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I imagine they have an idea of the stories they want to tell for the next few years, even if it's as barebones as which characters in which film.

I find that hard to believe when most of TFA's plot is about copy ANH as much as possible. There's very little original thinking involved. Thank god Abrams is gone from the franchise.

He's still executive producer on Episode VIII, but I will definitely thank god that George Lucas no longer has even a speck of creative control.

What's hilarious is that there's actually a petition to bring back George Lucas as the director of Episode IX.

Galvatron wrote:What's hilarious is that there's actually a petition to bring back George Lucas as the director of Episode IX.

Angry fan petitions may be the best thing on the internet.

Lucas tried to swerve the fans too much and didn't enough care about his own backstory, leading to the unevenness of the Prequels (which we nearly all praised and defended on here a decade ago, recall). That said, the only alternative to Lucas' own problematic style is not to just copy the original movies (a la the old EU; which ironically we're supposed to forget existed now).

TFA did have the look and style of a JJ Abrams Star Trek, but I'd be surprised if he had that much creative control.

The bottom line for me is that we don't need more Star Wars movies, but if we're going to get them, I'd like them to be good. And by "good" If we're going to recycle, why not just remake the originals full stop, or better yet, just bring them back to theaters again? Making something "Star Wars" isn't going out of your way to copy what's been done before, nor is it going out of your way to be as different as possible so it could be any other movie. It's about the setting, and having likable characters, hateable villiains, plenty of action and a compelling story so the movie stands on its own. Then again, I'm not a billionaire corporation that bought a franchise, so what do I know.

Kurgan wrote: So a movie plot hole isn't if it might be addressed in 3-6 years in another movie (or book)?

What are you even talking about? The overwhelming majority of the asserted 'plot holes' are of the "I'm a fucking idiot who didn't even pay attention to the film" variety that had nothing to do with things that would be addressed in subsequent films.

It would take me two seconds to assemble a similarly asinine list for Episode 4. Especially given how many of them are just complaints and not even plot holes in any sense at all.