Moderator: Vympel
I've been preaching this for MANY years and couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo. Too many fans have believed the old EU narrative for so long that you'd think the Empire could dominate the galaxy with a few star destroyers and that the Death Star was nothing more than an overcompensation for the Emperor's tiny dick.Adamskywalker007 wrote:As Tagge and Leia both point out in ANH, without the Imperial Senate, the Imperial bureacracy cannot hold onto the galaxy as a whole. Without a Death Star, there is no way that the Empire would have the strength to challenge shielded planets, if enough decide to rebel. The Imperial fleet cannot possibly lay siege to all of them, especially considering that said crews just might be laying siege to their own worlds. The Death Star, with its relatively much smaller crew requirements, would by comparison be somewhat easy to crew with absolute loyalists.
It makes more sense that way than what we got in the prequel trilogy. There are other ways to have a "Clone War" that aren't so one-sided (a war that started over anti-clone bigotry, for example), but if you've got one side breeding an army of slaves to fight and die in battle, that side is probably the bad guys.Adamskywalker007 wrote:I was specifically thinking about the idea that a lot of people had about the Cloners being the bad guys in the Clone Wars. I'm not really sure where it came from in the films. I'm pretty sure the source is Timothy Zahn.
The only one? How about:Galvatron wrote:The only one who actually called them the Clone Wars in the OT was Luke and he admitted that he hated the Empire. As a Hutt-controlled system, maybe the denizens of Tatooine had anti-Republic sentiments and actually sympathized the separatists, especially seeing as how the galaxy went to shit in the wake of the their defeat.
"The Clone Wars" might actually be the Star Wars version of "The War of Northern Aggression."
That was the entire point. The Republic was so far gone that no one really cared. Padme made a comment about exactly this in ROTS, questioning whether the Clone Wars were even worth fighting in the first place. This was what was so diabolical about Palpatine's machinations. He set things up so that the two types of armies that could be built in secret would be politically disastrous for any potential enemy to use*. He also set things up so that any initial resistance could be blamed on the CIS. It's why the Rebel Alliance proper took twenty years to fully develop into a real force in the galaxy. Any resistance before that was limited at best(like what we see in Rebels).Grumman wrote:It makes more sense that way than what we got in the prequel trilogy. There are other ways to have a "Clone War" that aren't so one-sided (a war that started over anti-clone bigotry, for example), but if you've got one side breeding an army of slaves to fight and die in battle, that side is probably the bad guys.Adamskywalker007 wrote:I was specifically thinking about the idea that a lot of people had about the Cloners being the bad guys in the Clone Wars. I'm not really sure where it came from in the films. I'm pretty sure the source is Timothy Zahn.
This does seem to be an unfortunate trend. I would agree that in many respects they could be better, but that doesn't make them bad. Especially since virtually all of the alternative ideas that go in a completely different direction are unquestionably worse than the canon story.The Romulan Republic wrote: I wonder how many people mindlessly bash the Prequels without putting the least thought into understanding them.
Alderaan was also a founding world of the Rebel Alliance. They probably saw it in those terms as well. Bail Organa after all was a direct witness to Order 66 and was nearly killed by clones. The Clone Wars were probably a term used by those with anti-Imperal leanings, signifying that the Empire wasn't any better than the Separatists they defeated.Galvatron wrote:I stand corrected. Shit. Maybe 20 years of hindsight affected even the good people of Alderaan.
That does indeed fit. Certainly more than most such theories. Though some of those details don't exactly fit spoilers I have seen, the general idea makes sense.Anacronian wrote:Anyway just another silly theory.
I always assumed that Luke saying that is him being a whiny teen. Its likes a modern teen saying "I hate America". They may not actually really hate America but is an angsty shit that hates any authority. This is especially true with angsty rural kids surrounded by people with anti-gubmint leanings. Tattooine is probably a bit like the GFFA equivalent of Tennessee and probably the people are were against any government, talking bout prying their blasters from their cold dead hands or equivalents and how the Separatists will rise again.Galvatron wrote:The only one who actually called them the Clone Wars in the OT was Luke and he admitted that he hated the Empire.
It could have also simply been a case of joining the Imperial academy was the only sure-fire way to get off of Tatooine and away from the life of a moisture farmer...Joun_Lord wrote:I always assumed that Luke saying that is him being a whiny teen. Its likes a modern teen saying "I hate America". They may not actually really hate America but is an angsty shit that hates any authority. This is especially true with angsty rural kids surrounded by people with anti-gubmint leanings. Tattooine is probably a bit like the GFFA equivalent of Tennessee and probably the people are were against any government, talking bout prying their blasters from their cold dead hands or equivalents and how the Separatists will rise again.Galvatron wrote:The only one who actually called them the Clone Wars in the OT was Luke and he admitted that he hated the Empire.
Luke did seem to have enough love for the Empire to join the academy (though theres been debate whether or not the academy was a military academy or the Star Wars version of college or trade school) much like some idiot redneck kid with a Confederate flag joining the US Marines.
Now I'm sure after the Empire murdered his aunt and uncle he actually started really hating the Empire.
Or he was planning on defecting to the Rebellion. In the deleted scenes, that was what Biggs had done, joining the academy and defecting to the Rebel Alliance at the first opportunity.biostem wrote:It could have also simply been a case of joining the Imperial academy was the only sure-fire way to get off of Tatooine and away from the life of a moisture farmer...
While I like the idea of the Empire falling quickly, I'd like to point out that a lot of Imperial soldiers and even a lot of Imperial civilians might have been indoctrinated to be blindly loyal, or even to believe that the Empire is the best form of government. And that lie probably becomes easier to sell if the people being brainwashed have lived through the disastrous fall of the Old Republic.Adamskywalker007 wrote:Why would there be Imperial holdouts? Are people going to be evil just for the sake of being evil?
As long as the majority of the Imperial military has the philosophy that they are protecting the state, why would they support the Empire after the New Republic was recreated from the Imperial Senate?
Whatever holdouts existed were presumably defeated by a mix of the expanded Rebel Alliance/New Republic and Imperial defectors. This obviously is what occurred over Jakku.
I see it going something like this, if I had my way:This actually seems the most likely scenario after the fall of the Empire. Including the part where military officers star selling off their equipment to the highest bidder. It would explain where the First Order gets their resources. At least to start.
It is highly plausible that the Empire favoured loyalty/ideological correctness over competence as well as quantity over quality.* There actually is an interesting thought here. From what we see, despite their appearance, the Imperial military really isn't very competent. Certainly not as skilled as the Rebel Alliance individually. Look at the difference between stormtroopers and Rebel soldiers as shown on Hoth and Endor. Due to the nature of their blasters, stormtroopers almost never aim properly. While they do often show great discipline, they don't show tactical competence. By contrast, Rebel soldiers almost always seem to aim their weapons properly. Despite a massive disadvantage on Hoth they also hold their ground until ordered to evacuate. Contrast this with the squad of stormtroopers Han literally runs into in ANH who immediately panic.
It can also be seen with the discipline shown by the Rebel Alliance at Hoth as opposed to the Empire at Endor. Though it was a trap, the fact that none in the strike team felt the lax security to be odd indicates that a similar level of overconfidence on the part of the Empire is not unusual.
The same can be said for Imperial TIE fighters. Despite a massive numerical advantage in ROTJ, Rebel fighters gain and maintain superiority throughout the battle. When they get in close, Rebel capital ships also are far more effective in their tactics. We also see an Imperial Star Destroyer blunder right into the Rebel ion cannon on Hoth.
Kylo's signature line will be a classic JJism: "My name is Jacen."Knife wrote:And I certainly hope they aren't Solo kids, or Lukes kids, or anyone else from OT kids. Let the EU die.
First of all, I'm of the opinion that arbitrarily throwing out anything that appears in the EU regardless of its merits is stupid. The new films should certainly not be bound by the EU, but they should be free to borrow from it if it happens to have used an idea that would work well.Knife wrote:You could flip flop it, Luke decided to let Force users die out after ROTJ noting all the damage the Jedi and Sith had done in the 20 something years of the PT and OT, and took his knowledge and most of the major training and lore of the heavy hitting Force users with him into hiding. Ren might just be 'finishing' what Vader started by bringing back Force users. With Ren on the rise with dark power, Rey just might be the Light side's pick who needs to find Luke ala Luke finding Yoda.
And I certainly hope they aren't Solo kids, or Lukes kids, or anyone else from OT kids. Let the EU die.
That depends on which government people are most loyal to. If they consider their allegiance to their planet or to the Empire/Republic. I would suspect that even a majority of Imperial governors would have allegiances to their local areas rather than trying to keep the Empire going.The Romulan Republic wrote:
While I like the idea of the Empire falling quickly, I'd like to point out that a lot of Imperial soldiers and even a lot of Imperial civilians might have been indoctrinated to be blindly loyal, or even to believe that the Empire is the best form of government. And that lie probably becomes easier to sell if the people being brainwashed have lived through the disastrous fall of the Old Republic.
That is reasonably enough. Though I would suggest that the large faction in step three be the New Republic. I would make the First Order a threat solely because they have Sith wannabes without Jedi to oppose them.I see it going something like this, if I had my way:
Step one: Immediately after Endor, the word spreads, foes of the Empire celebrate and rise up, and Imperial loyalists panic and are in disarray. Basically stuff at the end of Return of the Jedi.
Step two: Everyone rushes to have their say in establishing what comes after Palpatine, and to secure their position/agenda. The Rebels might have a lot of supporters, but they probably don't have the fleet or resources to quickly control the entire galaxy (especially since they won't resort to the Empire's brutality), they have internal disagreements, and a lot of people don't agree with them, even if they oppose the Empire. So we also get various worlds going in different directions, Imperial loyalists trying to avenge the Empire/rebuild the Empire/just survive, and criminals running rampant in the chaos.
Step three: Eventually, a lot of the small players get knocked out or absorbed into a larger faction and we end up with maybe two or three big players, which could be how the new film gets back to a Rebels vs. Empire-style fight.
That is an interesting way of looking at it. Most notably in Clone Wars, but also to a lesser extent at the beginning of ROTS, Anakin seemed to have genuine loyalty to the front line soldiers that fought under him. It is interesting that while he had no problem killing incompetent officers, he seemed to have a greater deal of respect for front line soldiers that put themselves in danger. It would make sense that he would thus get the better soldiers within the Empire. Even if he also ended up with a few lousy officers in the mix as well.It is highly plausible that the Empire favoured loyalty/ideological correctness over competence as well as quantity over quality.
Interestingly, Vader does not seem to have adhered to this, demanding actual competence from his troops as well as loyalty. That might be part of why Vader was so feared, why it was him who nearly stopped the attack at Yavin, and why it was him who dealt the Rebels their worst loss in the films at Hoth and in its immediate aftermath. And at the battle of Endor, where Vader was not in command and the Emperor was directly running things, everything went to hell.
Perhaps its because Vader lived much of his life as a front line fighter and military commander, while Palpatine, some duels aside, was mainly a politician.
That and Palpatine was incredibly arrogant, perhaps much more than Vader. I think Vader pretty much got the arrogance and recklessness burned out of him on Mustafar.
That is also a fairly interesting theory, but it seems to fit with your idea of a sentient Force. I rather strongly disagree with that. The Force gives no evidence of sentience. It makes far more sense as a poorly understood physical process.Knife wrote:You could flip flop it, Luke decided to let Force users die out after ROTJ noting all the damage the Jedi and Sith had done in the 20 something years of the PT and OT, and took his knowledge and most of the major training and lore of the heavy hitting Force users with him into hiding. Ren might just be 'finishing' what Vader started by bringing back Force users. With Ren on the rise with dark power, Rey just might be the Light side's pick who needs to find Luke ala Luke finding Yoda.
And I certainly hope they aren't Solo kids, or Lukes kids, or anyone else from OT kids. Let the EU die.
Despite the fact that the majority of it sucked, parts of the EU were actually quite entertaining. I would love it if elements from something like Wraith Squadron were incorporated into Rouge One.The Romulan Republic wrote:First of all, I'm of the opinion that arbitrarily throwing out anything that appears in the EU regardless of its merits is stupid. The new films should certainly not be bound by the EU, but they should be free to borrow from it if it happens to have used an idea that would work well.
That is assuming that later films won't also have to follow the new EU. I doubt that even the sequel trilogy would be allowed to outright contradict anything from Clone Wars or Rebels. Those series aren't likely canon in the same sense as the films, largely because few have watched them in comparison to the films, but I doubt that the sequel trilogy would feature Lorthal in a fashion that makes Rebels impossible.Galvatron wrote:The down side is, the Lucasfilm Story Group is going to have one hell of a challenge making sure it all fits since Disney has no intention of bringing the story to an end with Episode IX. The anthology films and the possible continuation of the main saga is going to make it even harder for the EU to do anything that won't eventually be irreconcilably contradicted.
That's your opinion, mine differs. Anything of the old EU that was 'smart', 'cool', or 'novel' has since been over used and over done to such an extent that it's as shitty as the other parts of the old EU. If they have a blue dude with red eyes in the back ground scene in a Star Destroyer, I don't care, but any Grand Admiral Thrawn action will get a negative response from me.The Romulan Republic wrote: First of all, I'm of the opinion that arbitrarily throwing out anything that appears in the EU regardless of its merits is stupid. The new films should certainly not be bound by the EU, but they should be free to borrow from it if it happens to have used an idea that would work well.
Meh, that Luke would have kids is not obvious. He was an orphaned kid of a dead war hero brought up by his 'uncle' only to find out the galaxies most feared man who kills his friends and mentors is actual not only a monster but dear old dad. Sure he gets dad to pull back a bit at the end and not be a totally evil ass until death, but does have this heavy legacy of strong and powerful, yet possibly evil magic that screwed the galaxy over and can be passed down to children theme going for him. Same for Leia to be honest. Hell for all we know, Han and Leia got it on after ROTJ, then broke up when Leia refused to carry on the legacy and decided not to have kids.Secondly, the idea that Luke, Leia, or Han would eventually have children is so obvious that it hardly counts as taking something from the EU, unless they use details of EU plot lines or characterization or EU names.
The kid who wanted to join their military academy and serve them loyally? That kid? Is pretty clear he is just hating on the powers that be, but had no problem as long as he could be a part of the powers that be.Galvatron wrote:The only one who actually called them the Clone Wars in the OT was Luke and he admitted that he hated the Empire.
Meh plenty of dialogue suggesting it, both the original description of the Force from Obi Wan in ANH and Yoda's description in ESB imply it. Prophecies, chosen ones, good versus evil with magic, all imply it with very strong themes. True, no one says 'The Force is just what we call God' in the movies, but plenty of stuff to include the Living Force and Unifying Force imply it.Adamskywalker007 wrote:That is also a fairly interesting theory, but it seems to fit with your idea of a sentient Force. I rather strongly disagree with that. The Force gives no evidence of sentience. It makes far more sense as a poorly understood physical process.
Agreed. Kind of a classical Dark Ages type feel, the wreckage of a great civilization littered around them letting them know there was this awesome culture that no longer exists, stories of magical beings doing impossible things that no one can replicate fully. Kylo can still be powerful, can still do cool things in the movie, but in such a setting, not being equal with the powers of Vader or Palpatine can show how far things have fallen in the galaxy and Ren's drive to recapture those things.I like the idea of the Force users of this era not really knowing what they are doing, it certainly fits the raw nature of Kylo Ren's lightsaber.
He just might have hated Tatooine more and with few opportunities to get off planet, 'going to the academy' might be the only reasonable way off for the kid even if he's not a fan of the government.Patroklos wrote:The kid who wanted to join their military academy and serve them loyally? That kid? Is pretty clear he is just hating on the powers that be, but had no problem as long as he could be a part of the powers that be.Galvatron wrote:The only one who actually called them the Clone Wars in the OT was Luke and he admitted that he hated the Empire.
Sort of like all those corporation hating college kids who take six figure jobs at corporations.
Don't read too much into it. It's Lucas. When Luke says "and I hate the empire", he means "I hate the empire". There's no more to it than that, George isn't that subtle.Joun_Lord wrote:Galvatron wrote: I always assumed that Luke saying that is him being a whiny teen.
I have to agree completely with this. Putting direct EU references would indeed be a bad idea, as it would weigh down the new movies with preconceptions, but that doesn't mean that none of their ideas were good. There were enough ideas that the monkey with a typewriter produced a few decent ones.Knife wrote:
That's your opinion, mine differs. Anything of the old EU that was 'smart', 'cool', or 'novel' has since been over used and over done to such an extent that it's as shitty as the other parts of the old EU. If they have a blue dude with red eyes in the back ground scene in a Star Destroyer, I don't care, but any Grand Admiral Thrawn action will get a negative response from me.
They have a golden opportunity here to start something new, not give fanboys the fan film they've been dreaming of.
It feels odd to me for none of the new main characters to be Skywalkers. Though, Luke having kids would not really fit the character, but it would be perfectly reasonable for Leia. She seems to be more likely to think it reasonable to carry on the Jedi Order with her children. I have, however, seen the odd theory crop up that states that Rey is really Luke'sMeh, that Luke would have kids is not obvious. He was an orphaned kid of a dead war hero brought up by his 'uncle' only to find out the galaxies most feared man who kills his friends and mentors is actual not only a monster but dear old dad. Sure he gets dad to pull back a bit at the end and not be a totally evil ass until death, but does have this heavy legacy of strong and powerful, yet possibly evil magic that screwed the galaxy over and can be passed down to children theme going for him. Same for Leia to be honest. Hell for all we know, Han and Leia got it on after ROTJ, then broke up when Leia refused to carry on the legacy and decided not to have kids.
It would work as well as further sacrifice for Luke to live the monks life, much like his masters before him.
We are going to have to agree to disagree here. Obi-Wan's initial discussion refers to it as an energy field. Falling to the Dark Side works almost exactly analogous to a physical addiction. Even recovered drug addicts are forever dominated by that decision. The Force amplifies what a person is, both their strengths and flaws.Knife wrote:Meh plenty of dialogue suggesting it, both the original description of the Force from Obi Wan in ANH and Yoda's description in ESB imply it. Prophecies, chosen ones, good versus evil with magic, all imply it with very strong themes. True, no one says 'The Force is just what we call God' in the movies, but plenty of stuff to include the Living Force and Unifying Force imply it.
The trailer's dialog also definitely gave this feeling.Knife wrote:Agreed. Kind of a classical Dark Ages type feel, the wreckage of a great civilization littered around them letting them know there was this awesome culture that no longer exists, stories of magical beings doing impossible things that no one can replicate fully. Kylo can still be powerful, can still do cool things in the movie, but in such a setting, not being equal with the powers of Vader or Palpatine can show how far things have fallen in the galaxy and Ren's drive to recapture those things.
