The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2006-06-18 09:35am

VT-16 wrote:
"I don't know how it figures into continuity"
It is a set of out-of-universe sources that center around SW as presented in the movies. They trump any in-universe statement made by a random character (like that clone in "Odds").

"Palpatine controlled everything".
Post proof or retract. HOW exactly did he "control EVERYTHING"?

With chess, IIRC.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-06-18 10:07am

Yes, Palpatine controlled everything.

Like Dooku almost turning back to the light in DarkRendevous or Nute Gunray loosing his MechanoChair in Labyrinth of Evil or Passel Argente trying to take out the Kamino-Cloning-Centre behind Dooku's back in the CloneWars-Comics.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2006-06-18 10:45am

For serious here:

A -good- example of someone controlling what it's foes know is Neal Stephenson's novel Cryptonomicon. In part of that book's plot, a company of soldiers and math genius are employed to conduct secret missions to keep the Axis forces from realizing that Enigma (Nazi's uber-code) has been cracked. The soldiers don't have a clue WTF is going on, but WE know that the reason they had to send guys trekking 20 miles behind enemy lines to plant fake intercepts in the house of a suspected informant.

That's how it works. If there is a Super Secret Plot going on, you let the readers know in the same book.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-06-18 12:00pm

Posten a line to my blog into the fray. Moose has already made numerous comments on it in the blog itself so he'll likely just write it off. I'm just too tired to deal with him directly right now.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-06-18 12:07pm

The Original Nex wrote:Posten a line to my blog into the fray. Moose has already made numerous comments on it in the blog itself so he'll likely just write it off. I'm just too tired to deal with him directly right now.

He has posted three "challenges" for you.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-06-18 12:43pm

I gave the first comment in 8 months on your blog, there. It's as diplomatic as I can possibly get.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-06-18 04:32pm

Sriad wrote:For serious here:

A -good- example of someone controlling what it's foes know is Neal Stephenson's novel Cryptonomicon. In part of that book's plot, a company of soldiers and math genius are employed to conduct secret missions to keep the Axis forces from realizing that Enigma (Nazi's uber-code) has been cracked. The soldiers don't have a clue WTF is going on, but WE know that the reason they had to send guys trekking 20 miles behind enemy lines to plant fake intercepts in the house of a suspected informant.

That's how it works. If there is a Super Secret Plot going on, you let the readers know in the same book.

Good point.

Out of universe, if the 3 million bullshit was really the intention all along, then the fucking movies would have let us know. The goddamn text at the beginning of Episode III wouldn't have said "War! The Republic is crumbling.."!

As I said earlier on this thread, I'm not really worried about this fiasco at all. As soon as the upcoming TV series focusing on the massive battles of the Clone Wars is done, it'll clear all this shit up without a doubt.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-06-18 04:48pm

Unfortunately, I think Odds will leave its mark on SW retcon or not. Writing trash like Odds is like throwing shit on the wall that is SW. A retcon might wipe some of it away, but some of the shit stays in the cracks of the wall.

LFL's canon policy seems to be one that strives to be all inclusive. Very rarely is an entire source invalidated. We may get a rebuttal of these stupid numbers in the future, but I seriously doubt LFL will publish an official point-by-point rebutall of Odds. That would be admitting an error and trashing one of the writers in their employ, so company politics wouldn't allow it. Years from now, we'll still have retarded plans to weaken rather than destroy battledroids, factories without any security, and wanked out Mando'a speaking Klingon clones. That's why, ideally this garbage wouldn't have been written in the first place.

I'm pretty sure that the upcoming TV series won't be consistent with Traviss's supposed "brushfire" war. However, don't count on it persuading the Fandawhorians. They'll see a massive battle and claim that visuals aren't reliable, all those ships are running around empty, or that this one battle was special and involved the bulk of the GAR.

Nothing but an explicit verbal statement that 3 million is wrong will convince these retards.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-06-18 09:26pm

Cykeisme wrote: Out of universe, if the 3 million bullshit was really the intention all along, then the fucking movies would have let us know. The goddamn text at the beginning of Episode III wouldn't have said "War! The Republic is crumbling.."!

Exactly, the movie would have opened with "Brushfire wars are breaking out here and there. The Republic and the Jedi Generals leading the Grand Army have been fooled into thinking it's a real war...."

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-06-19 10:57am

Someone needs to address Dark Moose. He's trying to convince people there's not "enough" time to create droid armies in the quintillions.

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=160

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-06-19 12:55pm

VT-16 wrote:Someone needs to address Dark Moose. He's trying to convince people there's not "enough" time to create droid armies in the quintillions.

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=160

Someone ought to point him to Saxton's calculations demonstrating that the droid army could plausibly double in size every two weeks, and then show him that, in a year, it should be some sixty-seven million times its initial size.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-06-19 01:42pm

I love how DM is trying to use the Holocron to defend the numbers.

EDIT: I thought he did. Now I can't find the post.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-06-19 03:02pm

I like how this Wampa Jedi douche and DM are both flamebaiting as hell. "Repetetive, circular arguments". Yes, providing evidence to back up a claim you don't like is now a "circular argument".

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-06-19 03:29pm

Shit, DM acts like a regular troll with all that flamebaiting.

EDIT: And now he's accusing me of baiting?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-06-19 03:41pm

Don't be tempted by him, just stick with the facts. (Coming from sources which he has not actually read, apparently!)

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2006-06-19 03:48pm

Not according to canon and this has been laid out in the thread.

I agree, no canonical support, but I'm not even worried about specific canon at this point - the number does jive with the broad storyline.

Look at it this way, if the Seps could feasibly produce 100,000 droids a second, there's no way to balance it out. There's no technology to grow clones nearly as quickly. There's not enough worlds to grow the clones on.

What a fucking snake!

Not only does he misrepresent you in the most bald-faced manner I've ever seen, he then doesn't care about the Canon...just the "broad storyline"

Nail him to the ground, I fucking hate Theme wankers.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-06-19 03:55pm

white_rabbit wrote:
Not according to canon and this has been laid out in the thread.

I agree, no canonical support, but I'm not even worried about specific canon at this point - the number does jive with the broad storyline.

Look at it this way, if the Seps could feasibly produce 100,000 droids a second, there's no way to balance it out. There's no technology to grow clones nearly as quickly. There's not enough worlds to grow the clones on.
What a fucking snake!

Not only does he misrepresent you in the most bald-faced manner I've ever seen, he then doesn't care about the Canon...just the "broad storyline"

Nail him to the ground, I fucking hate Theme wankers.

Yes, I was really pissed off when I saw that at first (however, I figured that it could have been an honest mistake). I don't like his tactics at all (he baits, repeats the same points over and over again and misrepresents posts).

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-06-19 03:59pm

Look at it this way, if the Seps could feasibly produce 100,000 droids a second, there's no way to balance it out. There's no technology to grow clones nearly as quickly. There's not enough worlds to grow the clones on.

Hey, guys! Check this out! DM is now the authority on the Republic's war machine! My god - and here I thought he was only a moderator on the SW.com forums. I've completely underestimated his knowledge on the subject; clearly, he has access to sources the rest of us fans could only dream about.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-06-19 04:01pm

Mange wrote:Yes, I was really pissed off when I saw that at first (however, I figured that it could have been an honest mistake). I don't like his tactics at all (he baits, repeats the same points over and over again and misrepresents posts).

This is because he doesn't believe in honest debate. He's admitted that debate is not a search for the truth, but rather a search for consensus and revelation -- so, when you refuse to compromise your position, he's reduced to repeating his arguments over and over again, and must distort your position to find something to attach.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-06-19 04:23pm

I wrote an essay that demolishes his production bits. Just link to it.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2006-06-19 04:31pm

Isn't easier to retcon the ICS? Especially given the amount of work it takes to justify that level of output? Especially since its a visual dictionary made to describe cross-sections of vehicles, not measure troop strength?

And there you have it.

I may have issues with the ICS, but this cunt is such a fucking little worm.

Just because there are billions, or millions of stars, that doesn't mean there's time to get around to all of them to harvest resources. Just because they are there doesn't mean you can get to all of them. Why would the Outer Rim need trade from the interior and back?

I wonder if he missed Hyperdrive when he watched Star Wars ?

We have a single source that claims the output would be exponentially increasing (seems arbitrary).

Its called common sense dickhead. You build more of the manufacturing capability, as you would during an interstellar war maybe.

1 source that says droids in the quintillions, approved mind you, 1 direct source, LFL, that says clones in the millions, picked up and used by up to 10 secondary sources.

How many times did someone repeat the Executor nonsense ? dozens ?

Isn't easier to retcon the ICS? Especially given the amount of work it takes to justify that level of output? Especially since its a visual dictionary made to describe cross-sections of vehicles, not measure troop strength?

Isn't it easier to retcon the movies ? Especially given the amount of bullshit it takes to bury reality, and the films are only there to tell a story, not give indications of industrial muscle.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-06-19 04:56pm

Yes, it's soooo much easier to make retcons that support "3 million" instead. All you had to do was render the entire SW galaxy retarded, make Grievous a buffoon who doesn't know how many troops he commands (and never deploys them in such a way that the paltry millions are never used up!), make the Republic's military intelligence so off that it overestimates the enemy by billions of times, and turn the Jedi into traitors and Palpatine's coconspirators. That's MUCH simpler than just coming out and admitting that Traviss's GAR article was wrong.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-06-19 04:59pm

Did one of those retards just suggest that anything more than 3 million battledroids would overcrowd SPACE?!

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-06-19 05:19pm

Yes. he/she/it did appear to suggest that. I was this close to an actual flame of that monumental retard.

Now, it's over. I've said my bit. Good luck, and fuck you, you gigantic douchebag, DM.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-06-19 06:50pm

One of these morons is now claiming that in Iraq, a four-man marine patrol once took out 19 Iraqi tanks with their Javelins. He didn't support this beyond saying that he heard it from some marine, and I don't think I can question his credibility there with DM as the moderator. I want to ask some of the real soldiers and military buffs here if this actually happened, or is even close to being possible. Not that it would prove his "uber special forcez" crap either way.