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Joun_Lord wrote:Kennedy is the master of Lucasfilms and Abrams's boss but isn't directly working in the trenches on Star Wars. Abrams is supposed to be shaping the entire Sequel Trilogy, producing whats canon and all that. Even if he ain't involved with the series after TFA his impact will be felt. And he didn't mention RLM as that was a dig at fatty nerds who praise Red Letter Media's Prequel videos as the be all end all on why they hate the Prequels because they are moronic sheep who can't think for themselves and think nitpicks make a bad movie.

I agree with you on RLM, but that has nothing directly to do with Abrams. RLM also criticized Abrams Star Trek movies quite heavily.

Joun_Lord wrote:Of course I have a warped perspective, I'm a fanboy with a suit of Stormtrooper behind me staring at me on a frame made from a closet door and a milk jug. Most hardcore fans of Star Wars do. I am warped because I see the Empire and Rebels as equally bad but I've admit that is a probably inaccurate view. Of course I'm also just some biased asshole on the tuberweb and not making Star Wars movies.........yet.

Abrams is warped in his pure OT fanboyism to the point he's spouting bullshit like there was only one shot fired in the Han and Greedo meeting, no midichlorians, and he only considers the OT canon .

The fact that he isn't using midichlorians is irrelevant. It is actually quite logical that they don't have a role at this point. The infrastructure of the Jedi Order is dead.

Does anyone like that Greedo shot first? I suspect even Lucas did not. That he was forced into it by the ratings board.

Joun_Lord wrote: The Republic seemed to have problems well before Palpatine came to power (especially in the old EU) and mostly Palpatine seemed to be exploiting existing problems. The greedy fucks weren't the CIS members (though I guess they are greedy fucks too) but the Senators zipping around in fancy hover-cars (the stolen hovercars in 2 and Bail's car) and were committed against funding a military even when the Republic threatened to fracture. And they weren't the ones to blow up the Death Star. The stolen children of Anakin and a bunch of plucky young heroes and a Wookiee that didn't even rate a medal blew it up. Bail risked his life to save to fellow conspirators who tried murdering a politician and a guy for practicing the wrong religion and did murder a crap-ton of soldiers. Conspirators who kidnapped a woman and then stole her kids after leaving the father dismembered and set on fire.

The Jedi didn't go after Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord, they went after him because he was breaking the law and had started the war. Mace Windu didn't march into that room in the name of the Jedi Council, he did it in the name of the Galactic Senate.

Yes the Republic was corrupt. But so is the Empire. Jabba the Hutt can post a legal bounty that Boba Fett can double dip on while also working for the Empire. Do you think the Imperial officers shown in ANH were poor? They were attempting to gain power rather than money. That isn't exactly noble.

In what sense did that Jedi kidnap Padme? As for her children, Vader had just been proved to have to murdered children. That is not something that leads to granting of parental rights.

Hovercars in Star Wars are dirt cheap. They are even reasonably affordable on Tatooine. Not exactly something that justifies the criticism of Republic Senators as greedy.

Now alot of that is a stretch on flimsy evidence (except the whole stealing children, murdering soldiers, dismembering a dude, and attempted religiously motivated murder) but like I said though, I'm biased so I will interpret different things differently then Rebel Scum lovers such as yourself, you damn dirty Rebel! Go back to Endor and live with the Wookiees! I dislike the Republic (and Republicans and replicators), I dislike its rot that allowed slavery and misery, worlds to be invaded and babies practically kidnapped (or actually depending on the source though thankfully such sources are probably long since non-canon) to be raised by a monastic order of warriors who don't give a shit about anyone and don't answer to anyone.

Wookies don't live on Endor. No wonder that those who supported the Empire lost.

The Republic had laws that made slavery illegal. Tatooine was outside of them. The Empire allowed it outright. Jabba still had slaves and had enough of a legal backing to post legal bounties. This was with an Imperial presence on Tatooine strong enough that stormtroopers could post checkpoints in Mos Eisley.

TK-984 wrote:As far as the "no midichlorians," does the omission of midichlorians from Episodes 4,5, & 6 mean that no midichlorians exist in the GFFA? When Abrams says “The only real mandate we had was what delights us. We treated the films, especially 4, 5, and 6, we treated those as canon.” does that mean he considers the PT not canon? I can't watch the video in regards to Han shooting Greedo first (I'm in China), but come on bud, who cares. You seem to be doing the exact thing that you criticize RLM of doing -- nitpicking. I'm going to reserve my judgement until I actually watch the film.

Given that it is a sequel, it is perfectly logical to follow on from the originals more than the prequels.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Again, it needs to be asked of you, did you even watch the movies?

This is the same person that previously stated that the Death Star was justified. While it could be argued to have a certain military logic to it, in much the same way as the atomic bomb(which was obviously a comparison that Lucas was making), it is hardly moral.

Lagmonster wrote:Besides the fact that I was never a serious vs. debater, it's still just a fun mental exercise that you really don't need to do in order to be a fan. If you can't comfortably separate that from the experience of just letting yourself be taken into a story, I'll probably think of you as the kind of person who tries to determine the exact shade of someone's hair dye colour while you're having sex with them.

Fair enough. Enjoyment as a film is always the most important criteria. I just love the depth of Star Wars. The fact that it gives enough of an interesting setting to allow nearly any conceivable story to take place.

Elfdart wrote:Judging from the new version of the Han & Leia cue at 1:04, it's almost certain Solo is a goner.

Shit.

He seems to be taking on the Obi-Wan role. This would be the logical outcome.

I called it several months ago.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Again, it needs to be asked of you, did you even watch the movies?

Reducing the Jedi/Sith battle to "religiously motivated murder" is cute, but it's just a meaningless reductio ad absurdum. Clearly, as anyone with half a brain who has seen these movies can tell you, there is slightly more to the Force than just a religious following. A lot of the rest of your points are similarly over-simplified, and some just outright inaccurate.

I mean, I agree with you on the Empire having a cooler aesthetic, but so did the Nazis, so I don't come up with bizarre distortions and deliberate misinterpretations to try and diminish the Allies in comparison.

I haven't watched them for awhile (and refuse to watch Episode 1 again but because of a personal matter). but I don't need to rewatch them to know the Jedi only started going after Palpatine when Anakin said he was a Dark Sider. Before that they were a bit weary of him but didn't much care about his emergency powers and happily fought his war. The only reason the Council sent Anakin to watch Palpatine was because the aura of the Dark Side surrounded him. There is more to it then just a religious disagreement but for the Jedi thats all that mattered, the Dark Side and the Sith and everything else including law and due process be damned.

And people who think the Nazi's are cool do try to diminish the Allied powers pointing towards shit like the rapey Russians led by a guy arguably worse then Hitler but had the decency to mostly keep it contained in his own country, firebombings, and use of the atomic bombs. Of course I don't diminish the Republic/Rebels because of any love for the Empire (because I don't beyond their stuff) but because of a loathing of the Republic and Rebels.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:I agree with you on RLM, but that has nothing directly to do with Abrams. RLM also criticized Abrams Star Trek movies quite heavily.

Like I already said, it WASN'T directed at Abrams but the rabid anti-Prequel fatty nerds who jack off all over the reviews.

The fact that he isn't using midichlorians is irrelevant. It is actually quite logical that they don't have a role at this point. The infrastructure of the Jedi Order is dead.

They probably shouldn't have a role because even if they are explaining the nature of the force midichlorians were probably forgotten and Yoda probably didn't have time to say "In your blood tiny parasites swim. Your connection to the force they give." However their definite no combined with other shit is part of a definite body of proof that Abrams only seems to care about a small portion of the saga.

Does anyone like that Greedo shot first? I suspect even Lucas did not. That he was forced into it by the ratings board.

Its still a change that was made to the canon and a change that Abrams said he ignores.

The Jedi didn't go after Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord, they went after him because he was breaking the law and had started the war. Mace Windu didn't march into that room in the name of the Jedi Council, he did it in the name of the Galactic Senate.

Oh so thats why the Jedi marched into his office and arrested him when the war started. Or when he continued to accumulate powers. Oh wait they didn't, they only marched into his office when Anakin was all like "you guise, I know you don't trust me but Palpatine is a Sith imma super cereal guise." Windu didn't care about any of the other shit but as soon as Anakin, a guy he didn't even trust, said he was a Dark Sider he went after him. And the Senate didn't empower him to arrest Palpatine or even know about it, so him bringing them up would be like me bringing up the Queen of England if I tried to arrest someone and would be about as legal.

Yes the Republic was corrupt. But so is the Empire. Jabba the Hutt can post a legal bounty that Boba Fett can double dip on while also working for the Empire. Do you think the Imperial officers shown in ANH were poor? They were attempting to gain power rather than money. That isn't exactly noble.

Did I say the Empire was noble? Nyet. Just because the Empire was the bad guy doesn't automatically make the Republic the good guy. They were practically the same organization just with a different title.

In what sense did that Jedi kidnap Padme? As for her children, Vader had just been proved to have to murdered children. That is not something that leads to granting of parental rights.

Oh so the intergalactic child protective services said Vaderkin was not a fit father? They granted custody rights to Beru and Lars and Bail? I must have missed that part because from what I remember some guys who couldn't legally make that decision just decided to take Anakins kids. I doesn't matter how bad someone is, there are rules on how children can be taken away, who can take them away, and how they are adopted. If my neighbor killed 20 people I can't just go and take his kids and adopt them as my own, that would be highly illegal considering I'm not some invested with the powers to do those things and neither are Obi, Yoda, or Bail.

And taking someone without her permission after attempted murdering her husband to some remote outpost rather then the authorities or better yet a fucking hospital sounds an awful lot like kidnapping to me.

Hovercars in Star Wars are dirt cheap. They are even reasonably affordable on Tatooine. Not exactly something that justifies the criticism of Republic Senators as greedy.

Most hoverspeeder thingys aren't suped up air Ferraris that are described as luxury made with exotic materials and built by personal mechanics.

Wookies don't live on Endor. No wonder that those who supported the Empire lost.

Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit. Also wookiee had two e's. And the Empire lost because they were a led by a bunch of idiots led by a evil space wizard.

The Republic had laws that made slavery illegal. Tatooine was outside of them. The Empire allowed it outright. Jabba still had slaves and had enough of a legal backing to post legal bounties. This was with an Imperial presence on Tatooine strong enough that stormtroopers could post checkpoints in Mos Eisley.

Laws they could not enforce. Many slaves were from Ryloth, a Republic planet (according the the Clone Wars series) near Corellia and what did the Republic do? Not shit because they couldn't do shit because they were shit. And Jabba was a member of the Huttese who were not part of the Empire and more then likely wasn't effected by their laws. And and the Stormtroopers were supposed to have been dropped off after the Tantive 4 was captured, they weren't there to enforce laws but to capture stolen property. The strong Imperial presence was only temporary. Shit.

This is the same person that previously stated that the Death Star was justified. While it could be argued to have a certain military logic to it, in much the same way as the atomic bomb(which was obviously a comparison that Lucas was making), it is hardly moral.

I said it could be justified, not that I thought it was. And it could be justified. Alderaan was a planet training and equipping the Rebels with their leaders leading the Rebels. However Alderaan also wasn't in a state of declared war, was a member of the Empire rather then an enemy planet, and the Death Star destroying it wasn't taking out a enemy stronghold but to create terror, the fact that Alderaan was home of the Rebellion was only a side benefit.

Lagmonster wrote: And both of those perspectives are cool, and totally understandable. I just believe that it doesn't have to be an "excellent" movie or a classic movie, as long as it can be an inspiring movie. It has to make a generation of kids to run around in playgrounds making lightsaber noises, but it has forty years of iconic material to stand on, so it doesn't actually have to deliver that much to get there.

Looking at JJ's films, I think it is important to be an "excellent" movie or a classic. Despite the supposed box office and critical success, how many kids actually talk about Star Trek as a franchise that everyone wants to follow? The same can be said about Avatar, which had one of the biggest box office ever, but it had very small pop cultural impact in 2015.

Whereas you can see the success of certain franchise by how many times kids want to rewatch something. Frozen is perhaps one of the most recent success, with plenty of kids going nuts whenever they see Frozen on the TV. You want to make something that kids and adults alike would actually want to run back to the cinema and rewatch it again and again.

JJ has never been such a director. He stated himself that he valued the first time experience the most because he thinks that uncovering the plot is the most important goal for the viewer. He thinks that the unravelling of the plot makes a film successful. I disagree with his approach, especially when it comes to making a franchise film. Your film must be enjoyable EVEN AFTER I am spoiled and knew the entirety of the plot. I can have so much fun rewatching Star Wars even though I know who live and who dies.

I still get a kick watching scenes like the trench run, Order 66 or the lightsaber duel in EP I. I have no urge to run back to the cinema to rewatch the new Trek films. There's hardly any new Trek fanbase despite how many people saying they liked the new movies. Same can be said about Avatar.

If you want Star Wars to be something that could attract the next generation of kids, then you need a director who can make something that people want to rewatch again for years.

What everyone is missing here is that this new movie will sink or swim mostly on how interesting these new characters are. Everyone is so excited about 90-year old Harrison Ford and all that, but he's just there to sell tickets. He's like "Old Spock" in the Abrams Trek films. Whether or not the new Star Wars films are "good" in any sense will depend on how these new actors and characters work out. So far, everything I've read about their descriptions seems promising. I especially like the idea of the "scavenger" that the lead female role plays.

Also, I always thought Super-8 was a fucking amazing film - for the first, say 30 minutes. The part with the kids directing a movie was really cool, and felt really like classic Spielberg or something. But then the movie just got stupid when it turned basically into a giant CGI monster fest.

Joun_Lord wrote:

Ziggy Stardust wrote:The Jedi didn't go after Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord, they went after him because he was breaking the law and had started the war. Mace Windu didn't march into that room in the name of the Jedi Council, he did it in the name of the Galactic Senate.

Oh so thats why the Jedi marched into his office and arrested him when the war started. Or when he continued to accumulate powers. Oh wait they didn't, they only marched into his office when Anakin was all like "you guise, I know you don't trust me but Palpatine is a Sith imma super cereal guise." Windu didn't care about any of the other shit but as soon as Anakin, a guy he didn't even trust, said he was a Dark Sider he went after him.

The plan to force the Chancellor to set aside his emergency powers or remove him from office was already in the works once it appeared as though Grievous was circling the drain. His status as a Sith Lord was not the trigger for his arrest attempt.

Episode 3 script wrote:MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds
the Chancellor.
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of
Grievous, then he should be removed from
office.
MACE WiNDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take
control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with
greed and corruption.
YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we
must take.

...

124 INT. JEDI GUNSHIP-LANDING PLATFORM-EARLY EVENING
MACE and the JEDI (AGEN KOLAR, KIT FISTO, AND SAESEE TIIN) are preparing
to board a JEDI GUNSHIP to the CHANCELLOR's office. ANAKIN enters the hangar.
ANAKIN: Master Windu, I must talk to you.
MACE WiNDU: What is it, Skywalker? We are in a hurry. We have just received word
that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We are on our way to make sure the
Chancellor returns emergency powers back to the Senate.
ANAKIN: He won't give up his power. I've just learned a terrible truth. I think
Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.
MACE WINDU: A Sith Lord?
ANAKIN: Yes. The one we have been looking for.

SCRawl wrote:

Joun_Lord wrote:

Ziggy Stardust wrote:The Jedi didn't go after Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord, they went after him because he was breaking the law and had started the war. Mace Windu didn't march into that room in the name of the Jedi Council, he did it in the name of the Galactic Senate.

Oh so thats why the Jedi marched into his office and arrested him when the war started. Or when he continued to accumulate powers. Oh wait they didn't, they only marched into his office when Anakin was all like "you guise, I know you don't trust me but Palpatine is a Sith imma super cereal guise." Windu didn't care about any of the other shit but as soon as Anakin, a guy he didn't even trust, said he was a Dark Sider he went after him.

The plan to force the Chancellor to set aside his emergency powers or remove him from office was already in the works once it appeared as though Grievous was circling the drain. His status as a Sith Lord was not the trigger for his arrest attempt.

Well I was apparently wrong about that them not caring but still how they were going about it was clearly not legal and they weren't going after him because he started the war.

Joun_Lord I could do this point by point but it is simpler this way. There are two main points you aren't getting.

The first is that the Jedi are not merely a religious order trying to crush a dissenting view. They are trying to stop a group determined to oppress the galaxy. Jedi are committed to their ideals because it is the only reasonable way to act with their level of ability. The Sith, at the time of the PT, were engaged in a campaign to overthrow the legitimate government of the Republic and build the Empire. The fact that the Jedi rely on their feelings about the Dark Side doesn't make them religious zealots as you seem to believe. The Force is an additional physical sense, it is not a religious dogma.

The Sith that they were looking for caused the war. Because of Maul's presence, they knew that the Sith were involved with the Trade Federation at the time of TPM. Dooku confirmed this by asserting that Darth Sidious was ruling the Galctic Senate. While they initially doubted this statement, by the time of ROTS they seem to have believed it. Anakin confirmed what they already suspected. Mace Windu's comment was "Then our worst fears have been realized."

The second is that while the Republic was corrupt and weak, the Empire is actively evil. It is true that the Republic allowed slavery, extreme levels of corruption and the stirrings of discontentment that allowed to the Confederacy to be created. The Empire blew up an entire planet. The corruption of the Republic directly led to the Empire, the fact that the Rebel Alliance was fighting to remove that corruption is noble. It does nothing with regard to the legitimacy of the position of the Rebel Alliance.

The fact is that the Old Republic was in no small part corrupted by successive generations of Sith Lords. We don't know exactly what all of them were doing at different points, but it is likely that their influence was felt throughout the Outer Rim, where groups like the Tradfe Federation were involved. This created a situation where the gap between the Outer Rim and Core grew to the point at which the CIS formed.

Yeah, the whole "religious war" angle falls apart when you consider the fact that the Dark Side of the Force is LITERALLY evil. It's not just that the Jedi don't like the Sith because they are a different religion, it is that the Dark Side is an actual evil force that causes its users to become evil beings with evil intentions.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Yeah, the whole "religious war" angle falls apart when you consider the fact that the Dark Side of the Force is LITERALLY evil. It's not just that the Jedi don't like the Sith because they are a different religion, it is that the Dark Side is an actual evil force that causes its users to become evil beings with evil intentions.

...from a certain point of view. It can be argued that the Force is neutral, and what makes you 'evil' is what you do with it. Your actions with the Force affect your outcome as a person. If you use the Force in an evil way, you become evil.

Of course it's all sophistry because we have no neutral observers in this particular mess...

Elfdart wrote:Judging from the new version of the Han & Leia cue at 1:04, it's almost certain Solo is a goner.

Shit.

I don't know what's going to happen with Han. But I'll say this: while I'd prefer the film not be too predictable and I would be sorry to see Han die, it would make sense from a certain cold, practical point of view.

One of the old heroes almost has to go, both to raise the stakes/tension and to give the new heroes more of a chance to shine without being overshadowed (also it could parallel the deaths of Obi-wan and Qui-Gon in the first film of each prior trilogy).

And if you're going to lose one, Han is probably the smart choice. Leia costs you a female lead when the casting is going for more diversity, but more importantly, Han's actor, Harrison Ford, is old. Older than Hamill or Fisher. As much as I hate to say it, their is a real chance he won't be fit, or even alive, by the time Episode IX is done. Better to give him a grand exit now than keep him around and risk him being unable to continue half-way through shooting a subsequent film.

Of course, another way to look at it is that Ford is about the same age as Bernie Sanders, and if you're young enough to run for President, you're young enough to play Han Solo.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Yeah, the whole "religious war" angle falls apart when you consider the fact that the Dark Side of the Force is LITERALLY evil. It's not just that the Jedi don't like the Sith because they are a different religion, it is that the Dark Side is an actual evil force that causes its users to become evil beings with evil intentions.

That is why the idea that some form of the Dark Side will always be around doesn't bother me. It is simply the nature of the Force.

The best result is for an order to recognize the threat and deal with it in a fashion less dogmatic than the Jedi.

Elheru Aran wrote: ...from a certain point of view. It can be argued that the Force is neutral, and what makes you 'evil' is what you do with it. Your actions with the Force affect your outcome as a person. If you use the Force in an evil way, you become evil.

Of course it's all sophistry because we have no neutral observers in this particular mess...

I would argue that this both is and isn't true. The Force is a naturalistic phenomenon in the sense that it can be understood and in the sense that in the end, the choices are up to the individuals. The Force itself is amoral.

But the Dark Side is still corrupting. The problem is that the Force makes emotions stronger. In that respect the Dark Side could be considered analogous to a morphine addiction.

Anacronian wrote:That's a joke right?.. it gotta be a joke.. must be.

It's the trolls at 4chan up to their usual mischief. What's truly funny is that not only have the Cultural Commissars been stupid enough to take the bait, but they've compounded their own smug stupidity by bringing back the long-debunked horseshit about Jar Jar Binks being based on Stepin Fetchit.

If Yoda channels Force lightning to jump start his speeder, is he evil?

Galvatron wrote:

What's a Nubian?

Seriously though, this is one of the best trolls I have ever seen .

Made all the funnier when TPM made the planet Naboo and it's... Nubians.

Are you sure it is a troll? I mean, this guy looks sincere to me.

Purple wrote:Are you sure it is a troll? I mean, this guy looks sincere to me.

Hooper X? He's very sincere.

If you're talking about the guy that started the actual boycott movement, I have no idea. However, even if his intent was true, there are literally thousands, maybe even millions, of people that took it and ran with it as a troll. Are there some inbred hicks that actually believe it? Of course. We saw that with all the idiots that spouted off when they first saw Finn in Stormtrooper getup or Johnny Storm being played by a black guy.

In other news, my local theater is showing a full marathon of all 7 movies in a row starting at 3am. $50 for the ticket and discounts on food. I would love to do it, but I have no idea how I'm going to stay awake long enough to actually enjoy Ep7 when it finally arrives at the end. I may just do the marathon myself at home over the previous few days and hit EP7 by itself. They're also showing a Back to the Future marathon on the same day as well. Goddamnit.

I don't think I could sit through seven Star Wars films in a row and still be engaged when the last one rolled around.

I probably won't even go to opening night. Too crowded, and if the news of record sales is anything to go by, for all I know they've sold out already.

I figure I'll go a few days or a week or so later, maybe an afternoon show, when I can enjoy myself more.

I am also planning on going later. It'll be tricky as that's basically Christmas time though.

I'm thinking I'll do the same, the opening night is probably sold out anyway and with later date you have less of the fanatics who would boo if the movie wasn't exactly like the one they have in their head.

But the sequels have always been a total mystery. I had no Episode 7 in my head, while I think we all pretty much had a vision for how the prequel trilogy should go based on the clues we were given in the OT. Some of us were satisfied with what we got and some weren't, but we all had certain expectations. These new movies don't have that kind of baggage.

Galvatron wrote:But the sequels have always been a total mystery. I had no Episode 7 in my head, while I think we all pretty much had a vision for how the prequel trilogy should go based on the clues we were given in the OT. Some of us were satisfied with what we got and some weren't, but we all had certain expectations. These new movies don't have that kind of baggage.

...so you think the fans are just going to forget the EU? That's always been the 'sequel' for roughly the past 30ish years. Just because it's mostly no longer canon isn't going to remove the ideas and plots that it came up with from people's memories.

Galvatron wrote:But the sequels have always been a total mystery. I had no Episode 7 in my head, while I think we all pretty much had a vision for how the prequel trilogy should go based on the clues we were given in the OT. Some of us were satisfied with what we got and some weren't, but we all had certain expectations. These new movies don't have that kind of baggage.

I'm sure many hard core fans (and even more casual fans) and fanfic writers have their idea of what comes after Return of the Jedi. And their's the EU version, of course, as Elheru Aran just brought up. Discarded, but not everyone is happy about that.