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I should also mention that the number will be larger if you subtend the angle and that I only selected Venators which were clearly Venators. The same method could probably be applied to the Separatist forces to make estimations for how many droids were deployed but that would be much more difficult, given the greater variety in the composition of their fleet; say what you will about using only Venators by Lucas, but it makes it all the more easier to count clone troopers.

Good work. I tried something like this. We know by the start of RotS that there are 2,500 and in CW2 that 2 Venators died every minute and that the battle lasted at least 3 hours. 2,860 Venators at the start. Lower limit.

Another nice quote, from BFII's narration this time:

"When we arrived on Kashyyyk, things were just as bad as we'd feared. The droids had us outgunned, outmaneuvered, and outmanned by a five to one margin."
— Retired 501st Clone Trooper

That's a 501st trooper talking about fearing such ... odds...

VT-16 wrote:Another nice quote, from BFII's narration this time:

"When we arrived on Kashyyyk, things were just as bad as we'd feared. The droids had us outgunned, outmaneuvered, and outmanned by a five to one margin."
— Retired 501st Clone Trooper

That's a 501st trooper talking about fearing such ... odds...

That's a fabolous quote! 200 to 1 indeed.

I was wondering if I could get an update from the people who have braved the stubbornness and stupidity thus far. I only read parts of the TF.net pages and skip parts that are outright fallacious.

Although I haven't been actively participating over there, it's come down to LtNowis and Razzy being the sole holdouts for 3 million, and their using all sorts of fallaceous arguments. Intrestingly, Razzy has been using ad hominum attacks left and right, and the MODs are suddenly absent. Methinks mesmells a double standard. . .

Fire Fly wrote:I should also mention that the number will be larger if you subtend the angle and that I only selected Venators which were clearly Venators. The same method could probably be applied to the Separatist forces to make estimations for how many droids were deployed but that would be much more difficult, given the greater variety in the composition of their fleet; say what you will about using only Venators by Lucas, but it makes it all the more easier to count clone troopers.

Remember, as per the ROTS novel, the battle is raging all through Coruscant's orbit: both the day and night sides. I did a rough estimate here of how many ships there would be, assuming the battle maintains the ship density we see in the opening sequence of ROTS throughout orbit, and came up with something along the lines of twelve and a half million Venators. That ups the number of clones by some seven orders of magnitude, now doesn't it?

The Original Nex wrote:Although I haven't been actively participating over there, it's come down to LtNowis and Razzy being the sole holdouts for 3 million, and their using all sorts of fallaceous arguments. Intrestingly, Razzy has been using ad hominum attacks left and right, and the MODs are suddenly absent. Methinks mesmells a double standard. . .

Yesterday I mentioned the quote from BFII that VT-16 posted a few posts above. Razzy's reply? The 501st "was hardly elite".

Wow, contradicting all the sources that describe them? Not bad for a backwash retard.

I lost all hope for those two retards when they actually argued that flawed droids were worse than having no droids at all (from having your factory blown up).

...actually arguing that the 501st wasn't an elite unit? WTF?

This stupid debate leaves the opposition floundering...

I pointed out that a war that leaves the Jedi so hard pressed to find knights and masters to lead major battles, even to the extent that Obi Wan leads several Venators on his own, is itself prove that the war is no mere "bushfire" and that it was large enough to stress the Jedi to the limit...

Mange wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:Although I haven't been actively participating over there, it's come down to LtNowis and Razzy being the sole holdouts for 3 million, and their using all sorts of fallaceous arguments. Intrestingly, Razzy has been using ad hominum attacks left and right, and the MODs are suddenly absent. Methinks mesmells a double standard. . .

Yesterday I mentioned the quote from BFII that VT-16 posted a few posts above. Razzy's reply? The 501st "was hardly elite".

I'm tired of arguing with razzy. His position is in a constant state of flux, such that he doesn't even defend Karen at times but attacks people who oppose her views consistently. For example, he is arguing that no conspiracy was necessary, but grows agitated when someone suggests that more clones would've been needed!

You can actually see the similarities to religious fundamentalists. "Because the EU says this." "Because the Bible tells me." Ugh.

dp4m wrote:The response to death threats (and suicide threats) against any user -- author or no -- usually results in a permaban, as that's been on of the clearly enumerated no-nos from the get-go...

Really? Why wasn't razzy permabanned for his desire to "hunt down" Qu Klaani, who was to be his "first target?" The posts were simply deleted. There was no disciplinary action.

From here.

I have ether broken Razzy’s brain or he’s just the most dishonest debater I have ever meet. I also love it that the mods do nothing to the pro 3 million side.

Hot Hands Harry wrote:I have ether broken Razzy’s brain or he’s just the most dishonest debater I have ever meet. I also love it that the mods do nothing to the pro 3 million side.

I pointed that out, subtly this time, in the thread on the new VIP rules. Razzy is extremely dishonest.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Hot Hands Harry wrote:I have ether broken Razzy’s brain or he’s just the most dishonest debater I have ever meet. I also love it that the mods do nothing to the pro 3 million side.

I pointed that out, subtly this time, in the thread on the new VIP rules. Razzy is extremely dishonest.

You should read his opening remarks in the first few pages of that thread. He basically said the debate was now over and that the thread should be locked down with no further discussion.

Everyone has already presented evidence to support their claims but all he's done is stonewall any meaningful discussion, not to mention make baseless accusasions and claims.

You guys remember that Gorefiend retard who came here last year protesting Saxton's work with the Venator and trying to argue for WEG's retarded weak Executor? On TFN, he just belittled Saxton's work and claimed that he "snuck" the term Star Dreadnaught in:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 27953/p125

The clear error against g-canon in Saxtons little definition sentence, snuck in one of the children picture books (reading age 8+), makes the whole Star Dreadnaught thing pointless anyway.

I wonder if you could get away with saying similar things about Traviss.

Where are the moderators now? If anyone had said anything similar about KT, then that would've resulted in an instant ban.

Mange wrote:Where are the moderators now? If anyone had said anything similar about KT, then that would've resulted in an instant ban.

Someone should quote his post and point out that they need to enforce the rules.

Jim Raynor wrote:You guys remember that Gorefiend retard who came here last year protesting Saxton's work with the Venator and trying to argue for WEG's retarded weak Executor? On TFN, he just belittled Saxton's work and claimed that he "snuck" the term Star Dreadnaught in:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 27953/p125

The clear error against g-canon in Saxtons little definition sentence, snuck in one of the children picture books (reading age 8+), makes the whole Star Dreadnaught thing pointless anyway.

I wonder if you could get away with saying similar things about Traviss.

This fucktard sounds similar to a guy i'm debating on the German SW-board. Poor cry-babies can't accept, that LFL takes children's books as "absolutly definitive" over the crappy RPG- and EG-stuff they favour.

I reported it to the moderators just to see what their response would be. The answer? "[It was] addressing his work, not the man himself."

Mange wrote:I reported it to the moderators just to see what their response would be. The answer? "[It was] addressing his work, not the man himself."

Did you point out how all the Traviss debunkers also debunked her work and made a point of not addressing her herself ? (On site at least since Mr Poe did address her directly though off-site so the point is moot).

Might I suggest pointing it out in the thread to help demonstrate the hypocrisy? Or I could get an account and do it in case of the mods possibly banning you for it (Since I don't even have an account now of TF.net so it wouldn't matter to me)

Mange wrote:I reported it to the moderators just to see what their response would be. The answer? "[It was] addressing his work, not the man himself."

POST about it. Don't keep it hidden in PMs. When they say publically that it was addressing the work, then you can point out that people who got banned were addressing Traviss' work as well.

DPDarkPrimus wrote:

Mange wrote:I reported it to the moderators just to see what their response would be. The answer? "[It was] addressing his work, not the man himself."

POST about it. Don't keep it hidden in PMs. When they say publically that it was addressing the work, then you can point out that people who got banned were addressing Traviss' work as well.

I made a small post without mentioning any names.