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Trooper TK12746 wrote:Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him.

Bullshit. You keep a sword hidden somewhere on you while I'm standing right in front of you with a sword pointed at you, and let's see who wins. I could easily run you through before you can reach into your robes and pull out that sword and then parry, and you know it. That's assuming he even has this sword on him as you say: so far no one has shown anyone the quote proving this.

The way I see it, Palpatine severely overestimated his ability to beat Mace, and got his ass kicked. He managed to not get diced to ribbons, but he was still losing hard to Mace. Even cranking full-bore Force Lightning at point-blank range didn't take down Mace, and that's Palpatine's best trick. It wasn't until Anakin came in that Palpatine had a prayer. Versus Yoda however, he held his own, largely because Yoda and Palpatine's strengths lie in the same area: the Force, and the Dark Side is stronger offensively than the Light. So in an offensive Force battle, Palpatine wins. As to lightsaber combat, Palpatine and Yoda seemed roughly equal, with Palpatine's reach giving him a slight edge.

I'm not trying to make Yoda look weaker than Mace, because in terms of Force power, he trumps Mace, but so does Palpatine. The reason Mace fared better in his fight with Palpatine is that at close range, Lightsaber > Force for fighting. Yoda was harder pressed in his fight against Palpatine because he couldn't defeat Palpatine with just his lightsaber, like he did Dooku, and offensively Palpatine had the edge in Force powers. Yoda and Mace represent the epitome of both sides of the Jedi's fighting abilities. Yoda is the ultimate Jedi Force wielder, and Mace the ultimate Jedi swordsman. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and when paired against Palpatine, fare differently because of them. Palpatine still comes out as a bad-ass, but so does Mace. Yoda is always bad-ass, but in a different, Socratic kinda way.

Darth Wong wrote:

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him.

Bullshit. You keep a sword hidden somewhere on you while I'm standing right in front of you with a sword pointed at you, and let's see who wins. I could easily run you through before you can reach into your robes and pull out that sword and then parry, and you know it. That's assuming he even has this sword on him as you say: so far no one has shown anyone the quote proving this.

Its possible its in a sleeve holster, so he can simply make it fly into his hand and press the activation stud. With Mace doing a big over-head swing, its pretty likely he could get the sabre out in time.

As for having it with him, well, thats just common sense. A weapon is thoroughly useless if you don't have it on you when you need it. There is no way of knowing for sure, but its not even slightly unreasonable to assume that he does have it. Same thing with the whole fight. We can't prove it either way, since the only solid facts are that Palpatine may have thrown a potential opportunity (we'll have to wait for the DVD to tell just how much Windu's sabre was out of play), and that he ultimately lost. The problem is, since he is given to setting up large elabourate plots (like the entire battle of Endor being to turn Luke), losing the fight doesn't prove anything, since that is exactly what he would have done in the other scenario. So all we're left with is speculative material like that it happened right before Anakin came in.

Another piece of evidence - Palps killing the three Jedi Masters. He was fucking insanely LUCKY that Anakin failed to notice the bodies on his way in.

If Palps had ANY ideas of manipulating Anakin before the fight began, he wouldn't have killed them. That way he's cornered by four Masters, not one. Much more effective.

As a board member put it last time this came up: "Oh, look at me, I'm old and helpless but I just managed to kill three badass motherfuckers.".

He just needed to get Anakin's emotions into play for a minute. Anakin already knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Anakin just didn't want Palpatine to die. And it was obvious that ANakin wasn't thinking logically at this point anyway.

YT300000 wrote:Its possible its in a sleeve holster, so he can simply make it fly into his hand and press the activation stud. With Mace doing a big over-head swing, its pretty likely he could get the sabre out in time.

Oh, so not only do I hear (yet again with no quote) that he has a backup weapon on him, but apparently it's in a second sleeve holster and we should consider this whole scenario 'likely" even though the novel indicates that everything hinges upon Anakin's decision. Sure.

As for having it with him, well, thats just common sense.

Interesting way of conceding that you do not have the quote I demanded as evidence. Tell me, if you find out that someone owns two guns, do you assume that he always has both of them on him?

Only a little while later, he pulls out a holdout lightsaber. READ THE FUCKING NOVELIZATION! It says specifically that he has a holdout lightsaber that was in his robe's sleeves.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Only a little while later, wearing the same robe, he pulls out a holdout lightsaber. READ THE FUCKING NOVELIZATION! It says specifically that he has a holdout lightsaber that was in his robe's sleeves.

Wearing a completely DIFFERENT robe. Apart from the fact that the two different robes look completely different and there's a scene in the novel where he changes.

Darth Wong wrote:

YT300000 wrote:Its possible its in a sleeve holster, so he can simply make it fly into his hand and press the activation stud. With Mace doing a big over-head swing, its pretty likely he could get the sabre out in time.

Oh, so not only do I hear (yet again with no quote) that he has a backup weapon on him, but apparently it's in a second sleeve holster and we should consider this whole scenario 'likely" even though the novel indicates that everything hinges upon Anakin's decision. Sure.

Likely refers to being able to put it into play if he actually has it. That said, I haven't read the novel, I'm only going off of what I interpreted from the film. If there are any specific novel quotes that defeat my arguments, I'll conceed.

As for having it with him, well, thats just common sense.

Interesting way of conceding that you do not have the quote I demanded as evidence.

Once again, I don't have the novel, so no quotes are possible, unfortunately. Additionally, you demanded evidence and not quotes in particular, otherwise I wouldn't have responded.

Tell me, if you find out that someone owns two guns, do you assume that he always has both of them on him?

If one of the guns is intended for deep concealment (ie a NAA Guardian), then I wouldn't find it unlikely at all. There are situations wherein it could save your life. Add in the fact that Palpatine is literally within walking distance of a giant temple full of his mortal enemies, and has just revealed himself to Anakin, I wouldn't put equipping a secondary lightsabre beyond him at all. Although he may not have had it, I believe it is unlikely, as Palpatine has an affinity for contingencies, and after planning and executing his plot for 13+ years, it would be unlike him to just let it fall to chance.

Although that's just secondary to the primary theory, that the whole fight was a setup. Again, if there are any specific quotes that throw this away, I'll conceed.

EDIT: Wow, heavy use of likely in that post.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Only a little while later, he pulls out a holdout lightsaber. READ THE FUCKING NOVELIZATION! It says specifically that he has a holdout lightsaber that was in his robe's sleeves.

No shit, fucktard. We can see this holdout lightsabre when he pulls it out during that scene. Now show me the quote where it says that he has two holdout lightsabres on him at all times.

Here is the first lightsaber, which was not a holdout. it was in a neuranium sculpture:

"The Darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled. With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device.
The neuranium got warm.
A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of a thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood.
Then flesh blood.
Then open flame.
Finally, a spear of scarlet energy laced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets.
The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkenss the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve."

Here is the second lightsaber, which is a holdout:

"From the shadow of a black wing, a small weapon-a holdout, and easily concealed backup, a tiny bit of treachery expressing the core of Sith mastery-slid into a withered hand and spat a flame colored blade of its own."

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Here is the first lightsaber, which was not a holdout. it was in a neuranium sculpture:

"The Darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled. With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device.
The neuranium got warm.
A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of a thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood.
Then flesh blood.
Then open flame.
Finally, a spear of scarlet energy laced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets.
The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkenss the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve."

Here is the second lightsaber, which is a holdout:

"From the shadow of a black wing, a small weapon-a holdout, and easily concealed backup, a tiny bit of treachery expressing the core of Sith mastery-slid into a withered hand and spat a flame colored blade of its own."

And did these passages come from the same scene? Or are you being deceptive by "forgetting" to include page numbers?

No, the first one is from the fight with Mace Windu, the second one is from the fight with Yoda. He didn't need his backup lightsaber to fight Mace Windu, this merely shows that he did have it. That was what you asked for wasn't it?

Trooper TK12746 wrote:No, the first one is from the fight with Mace Windu, the second one is from the fight with Yoda. He didn't need his backup lightsaber to fight Mace Windu, this merely shows that he did have it. That was what you asked for wasn't it?

No, it does NOT show that he had it on his person during the fight with Windu. It shows that he had another lightsabre for his fight with Yoda, once again deployable from his right-arm holdout holster. He would need two holdout holsters, one in each sleeve, in order to have them both ready for the fight with Windu, and nowhere does your quote even remotely suggest this. Where did you learn to read?

It says that he had a lightsaber somewhere else that was guided into Palpatine's sleeves (which means he could have had it in his hand), and that in another case he already had a backup in his sleeve. And the backup weapon is usually kept with the primary weapon in reality. If you have a pistol as a backup weapon, you won't keep it in the regimental barracks while your out fighting. You keep it on your person just in case. And I only said that it showed that he did indeed have two lightsabers. There is no proof he did not have it with him in the fight with WIndu.

And even if he didn't, he could summon it with the force and have it impale windu from behind.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:It says that he had a lightsaber somewhere else that was guided into Palpatine's sleeves (which means he could have had it in his hand), and that in another case he already had a backup in his sleeve.

Oh for fuck's sake, were you born this stupid?

Scene 1: Palpatine takes a lightsabre out of a hidden location and puts it in his sleeve holdout holster.

Scene 2: Much later, Palpatine has a new lightsabre, also hidden in his sleeve holdout holster.

You look at those two quotes and conclude that taken together, they prove he had both lightsabres on him at the same time? I call bullshit, and once again, I point out that you have no evidence whatsoever.

1. Palpatine takes a lightsaber out of a hidden location and puts it into a his hand, which is concealed by his large sleeves.

2. Later, Palpatine has a backup lightsaber (key word backup, not replacement) in his sleeve, presumably in his sleeve holster.

YOu have no proof that the first lightsaber was in a sleeve holster or that he didn't have it with him in the duel with Mace Windu. Palpatine barely twitched until he pulled out his lightsaber and killed the three Jedi. It could very well have been resting in his hand. In the Yoda fight, it was in his sleeve (presumably in a holster) and came into his outstretched hand. Backups are used to supplement the primaries, not replace them. Palpatine wouldn't have his holdout lightsaber off his person when he knows there is going to be a fight.

And even if it was off his person, he could still use the force to summon the holdout lightsaber and impale windu with it.

Trooper TK12746 wrote: Palpatine barely twitched until he pulled out his lightsaber and killed the three Jedi. It could very well have been resting in his hand.

BULLSHIT. HAve you even seen the film? We see a close-up of Palps hand, then he twists his wrist and his saber drops out of his sleeve with a SNIKT noise into his palm.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:1. Palpatine takes a lightsaber out of a hidden location and puts it into a his hand, which is concealed by his large sleeves.

2. Later, Palpatine has a backup lightsaber (key word backup, not replacement) in his sleeve, presumably in his sleeve holster.

YOu have no proof that the first lightsaber was in a sleeve holster or that he didn't have it with him in the duel with Mace Windu. Palpatine barely twitched until he pulled out his lightsaber and killed the three Jedi. It could very well have been resting in his hand. In the Yoda fight, it was in his sleeve (presumably in a holster) and came into his outstretched hand. Backups are used to supplement the primaries, not replace them. Palpatine wouldn't have his holdout lightsaber off his person when he knows there is going to be a fight.

And even if it was off his person, he could still use the force to summon the holdout lightsaber and impale windu with it.

Okay...let's try not to prove a negative?

You don't know if he did or didn't have a second lightsaber on him...at all.

And the second part...right, because Windu is such a moron, he's going to let this happened. I keep forgetting he's a Jedi Master.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:YOu have no proof that the first lightsaber was in a sleeve holster or that he didn't have it with him in the duel with Mace Windu. Palpatine barely twitched until he pulled out his lightsaber and killed the three Jedi. It could very well have been resting in his hand.

Oh, so it just looks like it came out of a sleeve holster when in reality, it was invisible and in his hand the whole time?

YT300000 wrote: But what about the part where he had the point of his sabre directly at Windu's chest, a few inches away, but didn't stab forward?

In ANH, Obi Wan spins, very slowly, in front of Vader before attacking leaving himself wide open. Vader does nothing.

AOTC, Dooku spins, several times with his sabre above his head while facing Anakin and leaving himself wide open. Anakin does nothing.

If you actually pay attention there is a history of missed opportunities in lightsabre combat so claiming that as proof is no good.

(Besides if its the part I remember the scene cuts so there is no telling what happened.)

True, but those all took place feet away, almost certainly giving enough time for a Jedi with precog and Force enhanced speed to react. This was inches.

Although I admit its hardly conclusive, since I wasn't looking for that when I watched the scene, and will have to see it again to be sure, which will take a number of months. But I am quite sure that is what happened.

Morilore wrote:

General Brock wrote:Since his disfigurement could not have been intentional,

Why not? It got him sympathy points.

the .303 bookworm wrote:Mace was a better fighter than Yoda, but Yoda was tronger in he force.

Wonder what matters more in pitched battle?

Since most of the Senate was already in his pocket by other means by now, going that extra mile for more sympathy points seems a little extreme.

As for what counts in battle,

Vicious wrote:

Yoda and Mace represent the epitome of both sides of the Jedi's fighting abilities. Yoda is the ultimate Jedi Force wielder, and Mace the ultimate Jedi swordsman. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and when paired against Palpatine, fare differently because of them. Palpatine still comes out as a bad-ass, but so does Mace. Yoda is always bad-ass, but in a different, Socratic kinda way.

Mace was more skilled, but not as adept a fighter as Sidious. Only in the end did he realize Sidious owned the game. Though he had just barely come out on top in the duel, he was beginning to suspect it did not matter, and the goal went from arresting Sidious to killing him. If Palpatine had unleashed unlimited power to begin with, Mace might not have stood a chance.

Yoda didn't really start to lose bad until he dropped his lightsabre to two-hand catch Sidious' force lightning. He was already in the less advantageous position, because Palpatine could choose the terrain for the duel. He retreated to centre on his dias, and Yoda had to dance precariously about the edge. Yoda was also under the clock; Palpatine had to be defeated quickly, before the machinery of the legitimate state caught up to Yoda.

What counted was not skill or power, but who was the wittier, cleverer fighter, and it those cases, it was Palpatine. Skill and strength count for a lot, but in a swordfight the skilled, strong fighter who is also a better strategist, tactician, and 'piste lawyer' has the odds in his favour. In both these fights, Palpatine did not have to win the duels so much as survive and buy time for the duels to be rendered meaningless.

Trooper TK12746 wrote:2. Later, Palpatine has a backup lightsaber (key word backup, not replacement) in his sleeve, presumably in his sleeve holster.

Nice semantic nitpickery. If I have back-up batteries for my flashlight, I MUST have them with me all the time?

YOu have no proof that the first lightsaber was in a sleeve holster or that he didn't have it with him in the duel with Mace Windu.

Yes they do--the fact that he didn't use it.

Palpatine barely twitched until he pulled out his lightsaber and killed the three Jedi. It could very well have been resting in his hand.

Oh come on. We can see him use the force to pull the thing from his sleve in the trailer moments before he attacks Mace and his escort.

In the Yoda fight, it was in his sleeve (presumably in a holster) and came into his outstretched hand.

Just like the one in the fight with Mace did.

And even if it was off his person, he could still use the force to summon the holdout lightsaber and impale windu with it.

Not if its not in the same room.

General Brock wrote:Since most of the Senate was already in his pocket by other means by now, going that extra mile for more sympathy points seems a little extreme.

It isn't over until the fat lady sings. When trying to make people mad at other people, it helps to have a visual aid for how evil those other people are.