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Kueller and Brakiss both might have been good characters if they had been developed first. As I recall, we didn't learn anything substantial about either one of them until they were already dead.

As much as I dislike the Vong, I have to go with Travis' load of shit as being the worst. A million man army ...really?

Galvatron wrote:Kueller and Brakiss both might have been good characters if they had been developed first. As I recall, we didn't learn anything substantial about either one of them until they were already dead.

Brakiss was in the Young Jedi Knights. THEN Kathryn Rucsh used him in Rebellion, and gave him a backstory (he was just evil in young.) It could be seen as a pet the dog for Kueller (helping Brackiss put his mind back together, giving him a job.) Kelley's backstory is described in detail. He heard his family was killed so he rushed home....and saw their crucified corpses outside the government palace. Oh and I think they were set on fire too. He didn't take it very well to put it mildly.

But still there is tragedy there. The NR DID look the other way with the Je'har's atrocities (They were preoccupied with the Thrawn Crisis at the time) and it is horrifying for a young man to see them murdered so savagely

Zwinmar wrote:As much as I dislike the Vong, I have to go with Travis' load of shit as being the worst. A million man army ...really?

The fun part is that Traviss was calling fans who doubted this "Talifans" and such. Then she basically quit working with the franchise because "The Clone Wars" animated series, like, destroyed her backstory about Mandalorians.

Then all of a sudden, in the first season of "Rebels", there's a traitorous Senator "Gall Trayvis" who inspires rebels only to get them into imperial hands:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gall_Trayvis

I think most of you chaps have developed a mental block about the actual worst series in the old EU. A collection of novels so poor, so horrifying that by comparison the works of Traviss are Shakespearean in content.

I of course refer to the Jedi Prince books.

Jedi Prince is kinda FUN to hate. You giggle at the stupidity (seriously, Palpatine's three eyed bastard son? Jabba's bearded dad?) It's just....so goofy. Traviss's work had a sickening air of superiority about it. Jedi Prince at least was harmless

Dartzap wrote:I think most of you chaps have developed a mental block about the actual worst series in the old EU. A collection of novels so poor, so horrifying that by comparison the works of Traviss are Shakespearean in content.

I of course refer to the Jedi Prince books.

I bid you dark greetings. Join me for a Mofferance on my Moffship.

Dartzap wrote:I think most of you chaps have developed a mental block about the actual worst series in the old EU. A collection of novels so poor, so horrifying that by comparison the works of Traviss are Shakespearean in content.

I of course refer to the Jedi Prince books.

I'm going to echo Darth Yan. The books silly but ultimately harmless. I've read the books, they were nothing special but nothing super terrible, they really didn't insult me even if they did have some really stupid parts. I'll probably never feel the need to read them again but I don't think of them as something bordering on torturous if I had to do so like I'm sure reading Crystal Star would be.

Their biggest failings beyond being ridiculously silly was the continuity snarl they created for the longest time. Reading the Wookieepedia article it looks like there was still retcons going on even to the end of the old EU, even Traviss herself contributed to this by created the dumb as fucking fuck Mand'oh crushgauntlets which Vader's glove was retconned as.

I also give them less shit because they were part of the very early EU when shit was still being worked out, when there probably wasn't a whole team of editors and canon caretakers ensuring the books fit the universe, there wasn't even a whole universe just a 3 movies and a handful of books mostly forgotten because the last had been released nearly a decade before. The Jedi Prince novels were still swimming in mostly untested waters, they were released only a month after the 2nd book in the Thrawn trilogy was released and only a year after the first book. Most people consider the Thrawn books to be the started of the EU proper so that shows you just how early the Jedi Prince novels were. Much later books like the shit Karen Traviss wrote don't have that excuse.

Joun_Lord wrote:Their biggest failings beyond being ridiculously silly was the continuity snarl they created for the longest time. Reading the Wookieepedia article it looks like there was still retcons going on even to the end of the old EU, even Traviss herself contributed to this by created the dumb as fucking fuck Mand'oh crushgauntlets which Vader's glove was retconned as.

You gotta be fucking kidding me.

Galvatron wrote:You gotta be fucking kidding me.

Nope, not even a little. That is seriously something that happened. Mandalorian crushgauntlets made of some super special mandalorian iron was dumb enough but then they had to wank it out so much that even Darth Vader used it and the stuff was so awesome it could survive a Death Star exploding. They are so awesome that they were banned until they proved to be super effective against Yuuzhan Vong armor, you know the shit that laughs at lightsabers for some dumb reason.

There is a good reason why I think Jedi Prince is silly but not insultingly stupid.

I looked it up and apparently his glove also contained an ancient Sith relic in addition to being a Mando crushgauntlet.

Here's an interesting read...

Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About the Glove of Darth Vader, but Were Afraid to Ask

Dark Empire and Dark Empire II. Resurrect the Emperor, resurrect Boba Fett, turn Luke to the Dark Side, steam-powered spaceships, TIE tanks...

General Soontir Fel wrote:Dark Empire and Dark Empire II. Resurrect the Emperor, resurrect Boba Fett, turn Luke to the Dark Side, steam-powered spaceships, TIE tanks...

IIRC, Tim Zahn has admitted to working with Lucas (company, not individual) at the start of the EU, and they actually wanted to spring Dark Empire as happening *before* the Thrawn Trilogy. He took one look at it, went 'aw fuck no', wrote the Thrawn Trilogy with no mention at all of the events of Dark Empire, and refused to budge, thus de facto forcing DE into happening after TTT chronologically.

DE happening before TTT would actually have worked to some degree-- it would have explained TTT's minimalism fairly neatly-- but considering the ungodly mess that it was (and the fact that they sorta wanted it to happen like a few months after Endor or something), Zahn was on to something.

I wish DE had been relegated to the "kiddie EU" along with the Jedi Prince novellas. I was stunned when I read Dark Empire #1 and it actually mentioned Thrawn as a mere footnote before the second novel of TTT was even published.

General Soontir Fel wrote:Dark Empire and Dark Empire II. Resurrect the Emperor, resurrect Boba Fett, turn Luke to the Dark Side, steam-powered spaceships, TIE tanks...

Publius wrote a pretty good version of it. Luke's fight with palpatine was great and it's take on it was "just because you reject it once doesn't mean you reject it for all time." The beatdown luke gives palpy is beyond satisfying.

I always thought the DE arc should have been adapted as a novel.

Galvatron wrote:I always thought the DE arc should have been adapted as a novel.

It might have avoided some of the comic-book-esque ridiculousness that way. People tend to tolerate the ridiculous more in comic books than in written lit due to it being "kid's stuff" or whatever, but written stuff tends to get looked at a bit more narrowly.

Considering what fecal matter has been flung out of the EU in the past though that's certainly no guarantee it would've been better...

Publius did a fantastic rendition

Is "all of the above" allowed?

The comic series with the killer Bugs Bunny, the Courtship of Leia, anything Vong-related or Wankd'lor''''ra'ian-related, or having to do with the kids of Han, Luke and Leia gives me that Funyuns and pink lemonade taste you get in the back of your throat right before vomiting.

Elfdart wrote:Is "all of the above" allowed?

The comic series with the killer Bugs Bunny, the Courtship of Leia, anything Vong-related or Wankd'lor''''ra'ian-related, or having to do with the kids of Han, Luke and Leia gives me that Funyuns and pink lemonade taste you get in the back of your throat right before vomiting.

Honestly I think that in some way you're being too harsh. Bugs came out when the comic was finding it's feet (later issues were MUCH better); the bad guy in courtship was resalvaged by another author and made a genuinely scary adversary. The Vong were an attempt at something different; Han and Leia's kids were more likable in the NJO series (Jacen finally stops being a pussy in Traitor and becomes more likable)

Darth Yan wrote:

Elfdart wrote:Is "all of the above" allowed?

The comic series with the killer Bugs Bunny, the Courtship of Leia, anything Vong-related or Wankd'lor''''ra'ian-related, or having to do with the kids of Han, Luke and Leia gives me that Funyuns and pink lemonade taste you get in the back of your throat right before vomiting.

Honestly I think that in some way you're being too harsh. Bugs came out when the comic was finding it's feet (later issues were MUCH better); the bad guy in courtship was resalvaged by another author and made a genuinely scary adversary. The Vong were an attempt at something different; Han and Leia's kids were more likable in the NJO series (Jacen finally stops being a pussy in Traitor and becomes more likable)

The downside of all that is that they were badly done in the first place and had to be either discarded or salvaged down the road.

Like the Mandowank went too far after the first couple of books or so, and it was bad enough that Travissty attempted to gank the canon to start with, but did she have to form a quasi-cult in the process? Absolutely absurd.