Re: The Clone Wars Season 4.
Posted: 2011-10-02 02:52am
I still think Palpy either drained her life away killing her from afar or Anikan accidentally used her life force to keep himself alive.
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As far as I know there's no canon evidence for either of those. The most plausible explanation, if you don't accept the one stated in the film, is the medical incompetence one.Flagg wrote:I still think Palpy either drained her life away killing her from afar or Anikan accidentally used her life force to keep himself alive.
You sure you're not just thinking of Robot Chicken's "Doctor Ball, M.D."?Darksider wrote:IIRC that's been retconned into the Polis Massa doctors sucking shit.
I'm not particularly interested in speculating on the precise meaning of "lost the will to live." The only thing we actually do know is that the medical droids declare her "completely healthy," and I'm inclined to take them at face value. Obi-Wan, for his part, is shocked to hear she's dying. As an aside, I agree that Padme's death was badly done. I thought it would have been more plausible for Anakin to mortally wound her, like by inadvertently reflecting a blaster shot back at her or stabbing her as she saves Obi-Wan from him.Darth Fanboy wrote:I know the dialogue, hence why I mentioned that it was not well written. But unless we accept that the medical droids used on Polis Massa were somehow infallible and that Padme had some unseen ability that enabled her to kill herself (which if she was healthy completely then this would have to be the case) then your accusation makes no sense. We don't even know what "losing the will to live" even entails completely. Was she somehow in an unseen way disregarding her own well being and focusing on the survival of the twins? Could the Force have been involved? Her husband didn't have a father himself after all.
Nice twisting my words, I never said the medical droid was incompetent, I said that they weren't infalliable. And unless you think SW medical tech has some sort of means of quantifying will to live then you cannot take the droid's speculation as 100% concrete fact.TC Pilot wrote:You can incline toward whatever you want, just so long as you can also recognize there's no actual evidence of medical incompetence to raise your rebuttal above the level of pure speculation. As I said before, I'm simply taking what evidence we have at face value. That her death is unusual doesn't change that, nor does your personal incredulity.
Huh. I've never read the series so I've never heard that before. Did the autopsy actually settle on strangulation, or damage resulting from it? The former would indicate a fairly obvious (from our perspective) forgery.Crazedwraith wrote:In the 2nd Courscant Nights book actually has Captain Typho recount the autopsies done by the Naboo doctors on Padme's body which indicated she was strangled to death, which may have been what Darksider was referring to.
Of course, those autopsies also concluded her child had died with her. So I think there was supposed to be some tampering with the body by Organa before handing it over.
And by implication asserting they're incompetent. Your own words were "I am more inclined to believe that the droids just simply didn't know what was wrong." Added with the fact they diagnosed her as "completely healthy," yeah, that's a pretty strong suggestion they're not doing a particularly stellar job.Darth Fanboy wrote:Nice twisting my words, I never said the medical droid was incompetent, I said that they weren't infalliable.
It makes sense; Bail would want to throw Palpatine and his lackeys off the scent just in case they did get curious.Crazedwraith wrote:Of course, those autopsies also concluded her child had died with her. So I think there was supposed to be some tampering with the body by Organa before handing it over.
"Not knowing" does not equate to "incompetent". Whatever killed Padme was beyond their ability to diagnose, but this happens to doctors rather frequently. But please continue twisting my words further, it's about all you're good at.Darth Fanboy wrote: And by implication asserting they're incompetent. Your own words were "I am more inclined to believe that the droids just simply didn't know what was wrong." Added with the fact they diagnosed her as "completely healthy," yeah, that's a pretty strong suggestion they're not doing a particularly stellar job.
It wouldn't be a TC Pilot post without pointless posturing after all, because being bothered to actually back up your position with anything else is just too difficult for you.But whatever. Next time I'll be more careful before assuming you actually had some content in your post.
As for the rest of your whinging and the blatant strawman:
Excepting the rather glaring fact they pronounced her completely healthy.Darth Fanboy wrote:"Not knowing" does not equate to "incompetent". Whatever killed Padme was beyond their ability to diagnose, but this happens to doctors rather frequently.
I have backed up my argument, shit-for-brains. You've just been too butthurt about semantics and the fact I don't give a shit about your whittering speculation on Padme's death to even realize you haven't even addressed my argument.It wouldn't be a TC Pilot post without pointless posturing after all, because being bothered to actually back up your position with anything else is just too difficult for you.
And they were obviously wrong, unless you believe that Padme had some sort of unseen power which enabled her to just kill herself. The medical droid is obviously not infalliable, but you are the one who decided to take that to another level, not me.TC Pilot wrote: Excepting the rather glaring fact they pronounced her completely healthy.
Nothing wrong that the droid could determine within it's ability to diagnose. That does not equate to incompetence.Yeah, because when you don't know what's killing someone, the logical conclusion is that there's nothing wrong.
Perhaps because the explanations I am offering are simpler than "Padme allowed herself to die." I'm glad you know how to read and listen to dialogue, but i'm unimpressed with your inability to make a reasonable interpretation based on the events we witnessed. "The dialogue said so, she must have just saddened herself to death!"You know, how about instead of just constantly crying about the big, bad random-internet-person is "twisting" your words, you actually give a reason why your interpretation is supposedly better? I'm fairly confident at this point you don't actually have anything beyond your nitpicking my word choice, but hey, maybe you can actually contribute something worthwhile for a change.
Your argument is that Padme Amidala is "scum" for dying in childbirth, your reasoning is the quote from a medical droid that she had "lost the will to live." Despite seeing her be attacked, despite knowing that healthy people with no medical problems just don't die, you have decided to place blame on her for something not in her control.I have backed up my argument, shit-for-brains. You've just been too butthurt about semantics and the fact I don't give a shit about your whittering speculation on Padme's death to even realize you haven't even addressed my argument.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. So not only are you a useless semantic whore, you can't even do that right.Darth Fanboy wrote:And they were obviously wrong, unless you believe that Padme had some sort of unseen power which enabled her to just kill herself. The medical droid is obviously not infalliable, but you are the one who decided to take that to another level, not me.
Nothing wrong that the droid could determine within it's ability to diagnose. That does not equate to incompetence.
What, you mean your "explanation" that she suffered some completely unknown injury that conveniently no one could find or explain?Perhaps because the explanations I am offering are simpler than "Padme allowed herself to die." I'm glad you know how to read and listen to dialogue, but i'm unimpressed with your inability to make a reasonable interpretation based on the events we witnessed. "The dialogue said so, she must have just saddened herself to death!"
Let's see, that strawman again, and your evidence it was "something not in her control"? Oh right, you have absolutely nothing. Keep those fallacies coming.Your argument is that Padme Amidala is "scum" for dying in childbirth, your reasoning is the quote from a medical droid that she had "lost the will to live." Despite seeing her be attacked, despite knowing that healthy people with no medical problems just don't die, you have decided to place blame on her for something not in her control.
Since apparently "make up whatever's convenient" is all you have going, here's an entirely plausible theory: Padme was secretly poisoning herself behind everyone's backs. Since a preprogrammed droid providing care for multiple species is likely incompe... I mean "likely to have some handicaps in diagnosing," the droids could easily have failed to notice the poison.I've brought up multiple, reasonable, explanations for what could have killed her, and brought up the real world truth that sometimes doctors are wrong. A preprogrammed droid that has to provide care for multiple species is likely to have some handicaps in diagnosing, especially given the short timeframe that existed while Padme was on Polis Massa. To put it simply, its easy to see that the droid was wrong.
Do you actually think I care about some little grudge you have against me? You're even more pathetic than I thought. More to the point, I didn't give a shit about your speculation or your personal incredulity five posts ago, and I certainly don't care about it now.You have decided to stick your thumbs in your ears and persist in bullshit that you've been called out for before in other arguments. I don't know why, perhaps you get off on being an ignorant prick? Whatever floats your boat I guess. But you overexaggerate yourself by referring to yourself as "big bad internet person" when you're just the same old internet idiot that you have proven to be on this forum repeatedly.
So there is no middle ground between "always gets it right" and "not qualified to do the job" now?TC Pilot wrote: Actually, that's exactly what it is. So not only are you a useless semantic whore, you can't even do that right.
Seriously, look in a fucking dictionary before you waste someone's time again.
That one droid could not find, as far as we know she was not treated by anyone else before reaching Polis Massa. People die from ailments not diagnosed correctly all the time, and the problem in this case is exacerbated because we aren't dealing with a doctor specilizing in the human anatomy.What, you mean your "explanation" that she suffered some completely unknown injury that conveniently no one could find or explain?
You are the one claiming that she died on her own accord based on one line of dialogue, a line that we both agree was poorly written and does not readily fit. People with nothing medically wrong do not die in a short period of time the way she did, it's pretty obvious there was some underlying cause. If Padme's death is somehow not intentional on her part then your initial bullshit falls to pieces, but I guess retracting a dumbass statement is beyond your capability.Let's see, that strawman again, and your evidence it was "something not in her control"? Oh right, you have absolutely nothing. Keep those fallacies coming.
Again with the Black and White fallacy here regarding the competence of the preprogrammed droid. It's pretty clear that something Anakin did to her, likely some sort of damage did occur. The medical droids as I have said are not specializing in human anatomy, this would be like a human general practicioner going into the Zoo to diagnose different animals in the collection. The droid wasn't skilled enough in this situation, the droids were skilled enough to assist in childbirth.Anyway, so you're accusing Anakin of mortally wounding her now. So the doctors can't diagnose neck injury now, but they're not incompetent.
I don't believe that is necessarily the case, but physical damage could have been done that didn't register for the droid, who was probably programmed primarily to treat Polis Massans.Or what, did he use the Force to kill her while he was getting turned into Vader now?
Absolutely not relevant to the discussion as we know absolutely nothing of Anakin's birth beyond his mother's recollection. We SEE the events related to Padme's death. Love it when people grasping at strings try to bring in irrelevant bullshit to distract from their own failings.As an aside, it'd be more than a little funny to watch you try this argument on, say, Anakin's birth.
So in order to try and refute my points you devise elaborate fiction? Her being injured by Anakin's choke happened is reasonable because we see her being choke, she dies not long after. If you think that's a leap in logic there's really not much hope for you.Since apparently "make up whatever's convenient" is all you have going, here's an entirely plausible theory: Padme was secretly poisoning herself behind everyone's backs. Since a preprogrammed droid providing care for multiple species is likely incompe... I mean "likely to have some handicaps in diagnosing," the droids could easily have failed to notice the poison.
I stopped reading at this point because I think it's funny that you overinflate your own imprtance and think that this is a grudge, rather than the result of us arguing multiple times. Hilarious.Do you actually think I care about some little grudge ...
A third possibility is that Palpatine had her poisoned because he feared Anakin's offspring AND because it would have triggered Anakin's visions of her impending death.Flagg wrote:I still think Palpy either drained her life away killing her from afar or Anikan accidentally used her life force to keep himself alive.
Pretty much, yeah. They're machines. They're either capable of identifying the problem or they aren't.Darth Fanboy wrote:So there is no middle ground between "always gets it right" and "not qualified to do the job" now?
"For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her."That one droid
Based on...?and the problem in this case is exacerbated because we aren't dealing with a doctor specilizing in the human anatomy.
I didn't agree to that at all. I said that Padme's death was poorly-done, as in, the Prequels suck, partly, I'll add, because of awful characters like Padme. Try and read what's actually written by someone, not the made-up fantasy in your deranged head.You are the one claiming that she died on her own accord based on one line of dialogue, a line that we both agree was poorly written and does not readily fit.
Pretty sure my position is that it was intentional, champ.People with nothing medically wrong do not die in a short period of time the way she did, it's pretty obvious there was some underlying cause. If Padme's death is somehow not intentional on her part then your initial bullshit falls to pieces, but I guess retracting a dumbass statement is beyond your capability.
Again with the Black and White fallacy here regarding the competence of the preprogrammed droid. It's pretty clear that something Anakin did to her, likely some sort of damage did occur. The medical droids as I have said are not specializing in human anatomy, this would be like a human general practicioner going into the Zoo to diagnose different animals in the collection. The droid wasn't skilled enough in this situation, the droids were skilled enough to assist in childbirth.
No shit it's not relevant to the discussion. That's what "as an aside" means, you bloody twit.Absolutely not relevant to the discussion as we know absolutely nothing of Anakin's birth beyond his mother's recollection.
You haven't presented anything to refute. You've just tossed up some speculation you find more plausible than my reading of the ROTS dialouge. This will be the half-dozenth time I've said this to you now, but here goes anyway: I don't give a shit what you think is more plausible.So in order to try and refute my points you devise elaborate fiction?
I don't think it's a leap in logic at all. That you still haven't figured that out is testament to how much of a blithering idiot you really are. Seriously, go back and look at the first sentence of my post before you went off on your nitpick tangent about "twisting" your words. Not once have I disputed the validity of "medical incompetence." Or, so you won't have another conniption fit, the validity of "not programmed sufficiently to diagnose Padme's injuries."Her being injured by Anakin's choke happened is reasonable because we see her being choke, she dies not long after. If you think that's a leap in logic there's really not much hope for you.
Well, you started with semantic whoring, and now you end with it. Rather fitting, I suppose. Alright, you don't have a grudge, you're just a pathetic idiot who keeps mentioning some argument we apparently had... what, months, years? ago as if that's supposed to mean anything.I stopped reading at this point because I think it's funny that you overinflate your own imprtance and think that this is a grudge, rather than the result of us arguing multiple times. Hilarious.
So because this droid makes a mistake (which again, it did, because healthy people don't just die) it's incompetent. I do apologize that I keep bringing up the difficulties of treating multiple and possibly unfamiliar species, because its actually relevant even though you'd like to ignore it in order to further your own cause.TC Pilot wrote: Pretty much, yeah. They're machines. They're either capable of identifying the problem or they aren't.
Again i'm very glad you can read and listen to dialogue, I know it must be difficult for you. Now if you could only apply some reasoning."For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her."
They are Polis Massan droid at a Polis Massan medical facility, why would they make sure to go out of their way to have a droid that can work on humans. You do realize that between species there is an incredible amount of biological difference?Based on...?
Well we do see them deliver human babies, and for the sake of honestly I am compelled to mention that and make that concession. If we don't see those droids delivering the babies, it could be even easier to believe that the droids simply weren't programmed for human medical care.I particularly like how you later go on to say they're qualified to assist in human pregnancy (cuz, you know, that's clearly a priority over general treatment ). How convenient for you. But really, when your entire argument is "I say so," just making up shit without a shred of proof isn't really a surprise.
I didn't agree to that at all. I said that Padme's death was poorly-done, as in, the Prequels suck, partly, I'll add, because of awful characters like Padme. Try and read what's actually written by someone, not the made-up fantasy in your deranged head.
TC Pilot wrote: But yeah, another of the many reasons why Padme is a complete scumbag.
The Romulan Republic wrote: Out of curiosity, what other reasons do you have for claiming Padme is a scumbag?
You twist words often enough, you get caught in them.TC Pilot wrote: What else? Oh yeah, leaving her newborn twins orphans after losing the will to live.
And knowing that Padme Amidala is a normal human being with no percieved special abilities or powers, you still believe she just simply died without anything wrong with her.Pretty sure my position is that it was intentional, champ.
And you are so fixated on that you're unable to get the rest of your dishonest bullshit caught up to speed. Ironic since you're the one being sematic about that definition, yet accusing me of doing the same.
So basically, your position is exactly the same as Darksider and Romulan Republic, but you're too much of a blubbering twat to use "incompetent."
Again, what a fucking joke.
There are moments where I think you are just trolling. If so, good for you sir.Snipped, rest of quote is more useless TC Pilot posturing devoid of content
How many times does this have to be spelled out to you before it sinks in? Ten? Twenty times?Darth Fanboy wrote:So because this droid makes a mistake (which again, it did, because healthy people don't just die) it's incompetent.
Why would they have droids capable of treating the most populous species in the galaxy? But I digress...They are Polis Massan droid at a Polis Massan medical facility, why would they make sure to go out of their way to have a droid that can work on humans. You do realize that between species there is an incredible amount of biological difference?
More reading comprehension failure. So shocking.Ahem... *snip Fanboy completely missing the point*
Yep. Why, am I supposed to care that you don't like that?And knowing that Padme Amidala is a normal human being with no percieved special abilities or powers, you still believe she just simply died without anything wrong with her.
Obi-Wan cast an appeal toward the medical droid. "Can't you do something?"
"All organic damage has been repaired." The droid checked another readout. "This systemic failure cannot be explained."
Not physically, Obi-Wan thought.
that was what i was feeling they were doing.Darksider wrote:Do we know they were speaking basic? They were talking to threepio. They could've just used spoken english to avoid annoying the viewers with excessive alien babbling.