New Redletter Media video about Lucas

[Crateria]

Please point to the scene where the blockade is said to be illegal and I will point to the scene where Nute Gunray rapes Padame.

Please go fuck yourself with cattle-prod for being a dishonest troll.

I haven't watch TPM in a while, but doesn't the Senate argue for over a month whether or not the blockade is legal? I think they then come down to the conclusion that it isn't right?

[Bakustra]

No. What happens is that the invasion is obviously illegal, and it seems likely that the blockade was legal, since Gunray, when talking to Sidious, questions the legality of the invasion. If he were already doing something blatantly illegal, that would not be a concern of his, regardless of Elfdart's belief that Gunray is a pathological liar.

No, a few Red Letter Morons don't know. Non-retards who watched the movie know that the Trade Federation, being described as greedy, would resent a tax on trade routes -the means by which a trade organization makes money: the thing that greedy people want.

Now one could come up with alternate motives for the TF to act as they did, but this IS a Star Wars movie and not The Big Sleep, so the simpler explanation is a better fit and doesn't require the kinds of bullfuckery you get from Heathcliff's fanboys.

Explain why this is more plausible than the TF levying a tax on planets from their greed and Naboo refusing to pay.

[Galvatron]

I imagine this exchange in TESB reflects a similar arrangement between the Republic, the Trade Federation and Naboo.

Lando: Well, you see, since we're a small operation, we don't fall into the jurisdiction of the Empire.
Leia: So you're part of the Mining Guild, then?
Lando: No, not actually. Our operation is small enough not to be noticed.

Perhaps "the small planet of Naboo" enjoyed a similar degree of economic freedom until the TF taxed, or had the Senate tax, the trade routes to their system.

[Anguirus]

I already said elsewhere that from a storytelling perspective Obi Wan's and Qui Gon's roles should have been reversed.

I like that! It would also make TPM feel a little yes like a retread of ANH emotionally.

What makes you think that a lack of motivation on the part of the individual who serves as the primary antagonist for the majority of the movie is a trivial flaw? A movie that works if you don't think about it doesn't really work at all, not any more than a house of cards is a sturdy piece of architecture.

Gunray's motivation remains simplicity itself. What you're harping on is the plot, which remains awful. Gunray wants money. The fact that the movie doesn't chart a clear path as to how he's going to get it has to do with plot.

Both me and Destructinator gave you explanations at to why Tarkin works as a villain while Gunray and the TF do not. They don't have good reasons for the things they do, compared to Tarkin who, if you'd managed to even bother understanding the posts we made, has his motivations and logical actions explained by watching ANH and reading a little EU.

So...a simple villain in the movie (Tarkin wants to blow up Rebels and gives Vader lip!) can become a more complex one with a little extrapolation and reading extra bonus stuff? That's nothing like what I just said.

Did you look up Gunray on Wookiepedia? This is Star Wars, for all we know he's got a Jedi half-brother, a Rebel pilot niece, and all of his actions were motivated by unrequited love.

Look, I don't know why you're even talking about this anymore; Angurius has declared that *REGULAR* people don't care. That means 'stop talking about it wah you're hurting my feelings'. That example? He didn't mean it! He knows words like plot honest - just stop talking you're hurting his fragile brain!

Stark is what happens when someone thinks being antisocial is more important than being coherent. Why isn't plot relevant to this discussion? Fuck if I know, apparently the motivation of a cardboard cutout character is the real problem with TPM. STARK IS TOO COMPLICATED! I don't understand his motivation!

[Crateria]

Both me and Destructinator gave you explanations at to why Tarkin works as a villain while Gunray and the TF do not. They don't have good reasons for the things they do, compared to Tarkin who, if you'd managed to even bother understanding the posts we made, has his motivations and logical actions explained by watching ANH and reading a little EU.

So...a simple villain in the movie (Tarkin wants to blow up Rebels and gives Vader lip!) can become a more complex one with a little extrapolation and reading extra bonus stuff? That's nothing like what I just said.

Dear lord, are you even trying any more? What's the point you're trying to prove?

I said that Tarkin, admittedly a simple character (even if you look to EU he's still a very simple character) has actions in the movie that make sense from the movie, and is the main source of action seeing as he's hugely responsible for making the plot happen. The Trade Federation? What do they have to gain from this. Tell me now, cause I sure as hell am not going back 9 or so fucking pages in order to understand bad guys' motivations that should have been obvious.

EDIT: Fuck it. I don't give a shit about this anymore. No point in trying to argue with a Wall of Ignorance.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Villains in movies...
LIE!

They also cheat, steal, kill, rape and do other nasty things.

Please point to the scene where the blockade is said to be illegal and I will point to the scene where Nute Gunray rapes Padame.

Please go fuck yourself with cattle-prod for being a dishonest troll.

Odd you bring up a cattle-prod, that's what Nute uses on Padame. So I take it you can't name a scene where anyone mentions, infers or out right says the blockade is illegal? You know why that is? Because it doesn't exist. Because the blockade is legal.

EDIT: extra words and shit

[VF5SS]

I will admit the one good bit of acting in TPM is when Kidakin says goodbye to his mom

if only because little kids are very good at faking sincerity to adults :3

[Jim Raynor]

LOL, this thread goes on and on!

I see the same three or four people carrying on, oblvious to how outrageous their "criticisms" of the movie are. Blockading a planet doesn't matter, because people can supposedly sustain themselves by hunting wildlife. Jamming communications during a military attack somehow needs explaining. Bail Organa, a bit character in Episodes II and III, somehow needs to be explained in TPM even though he doesn't even appear in that movie.

Yeah, I'm repeating myself again. But that's because I don't see any of you guys recanting this nonsense. You simply lower your heads and keep pressing on. Continuing to grasp at straws, even though the nature of this thread has degenerated to the point where you're all just whining over nitpicky, irrelevant things. And it's not the first time I've seen this stuff from the same people. I remember when someone asked for an explanation of why General Grievous would have verbal clout in a meeting about military matters. Someone else claiming that it was "poor filmmaking" for no-name Trade Fed henchman to know that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had escaped up a ventilation shaft...when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were shown being monitored on security cameras just seconds prior.

Criticisms like these do not reflect any sort of normal thought process. Could it be...that you guys are trying way too hard to create your own flaws in the movie? Be honest with yourselves.

So how do we translate the basal motivation of "money" into the actions taken in the films? Because we can translate the basal motivation of "power" into the actions taken by Palpatine, to a certain limited extent, but we cannot do so for the Trade Federation to any extent. They're blockading a planet? How does this get them money? That is what the film should explain, so that we can follow and understand why the Trade Federation are doing the things they do.

An economic dispute spun out of control and escalated into the use of military force. That's basically all that needs to be known. As I said before, a movie about the American Revolution doesn't have to make more than a cursory reference to taxes. A story about WWI doesn't have to explain why millions of people are dying because one guy got shot. The initial cause of the conflict pales in comparison to the conflict itself.

Once again, the Trade Federation with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade routes. It follows that they don't like taxes, and are acting out so that the taxes are repealed. Maybe Naboo was a supporter or beneficiary of the taxes. Maybe the Trade Fed is just bullying a weaker planet, so that others can see the weight they have to throw around. It does not matter, and the basic gist of things is easy enough for children to understand.

You should never be allowed to experience fiction in any way, because you have no fucking idea how any of it works. You gabble about how the motivations of antagonists aren't important because related words are thrown around.

Yeah, I don't know how to "experience" fiction (as if there's a proper way to do that, other than non-retard) because I care more about the conflict that the movie is actually about (hint: the invasion of Naboo), the themes, the Republic's decline, Qui-Gon taking Anakin under his wing, or Anakin leaving his mother behind for a hopefully better future. And oh yeah, the laser guns and laser swords which are the reason why people even sit down for a movie titled "Star Wars."

But compared to the TAXES, none of that stuff really seems important, does it?

Answer me this question. If you removed the Death Star Plans from ANH, would it still be a good movie?

You ask that like it's a hard question. The Death Star plans are a MacGuffin. You can remove them from the movie and still have basically the same story. Because all you need is for Luke to leave home, save the princess, then fight the Empire's big superweapon at the end.

[Cesario]

Maybe you can answer this question I've had since I first saw the movie. If the Trade Federation had gotten its way instead of being stopped in the climax, what would have become of Naboo?

[Stark]

Man, the taxes may actually have been of benefit to the TF. We dont' even know if they wanted more tax, less tax, no tax, their own tax, or who was being taxed.

Luckily it has swordfights, so nobody minds.

[VF5SS]

Did anyone ever notice that Ray Park buys it in the exact same way as Tex Cobb at the end of Blind Fury

except in that movie better because it has Hobo with a Shotgun Rutger Hauer

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

I see the same three or four people carrying on, oblvious to how outrageous their "criticisms" of the movie are. Blockading a planet doesn't matter, because people can supposedly sustain themselves by hunting wildlife. Jamming communications during a military attack somehow needs explaining. Bail Organa, a bit character in Episodes II and III, somehow needs to be explained in TPM even though he doesn't even appear in that movie.

Yeah, I'm repeating myself again. But that's because I don't see any of you guys recanting this nonsense. You simply lower your heads and keep pressing on.

Serious question. Are you mentally handicapped in some way? You seem capable of writing but do you know how to read? The only person bringing hunting wildlife, jamming communication, and Bail is you. OVER and OVER and OVERagain. No one knows or gives a shit who wrote those ideas, but for fuck sake could you maybe bother to read what people ARE talking about? Destructionator XIII recanted his Bail stuff (not once but twice you dishonest, non-reading piece of shit) since he was basing it off of the script not the final film

So do me a favor, bring something new to the table, I don't care if you copy and paste from your 108 page piece of garbage rebuttal, just STOP bringing shit up that NO ONE but you is talking about. You lazy fucking retard (sorry if you are handicapped, but good god you're annoying as fuck).

Criticisms like these do not reflect any sort of normal thought process. Could it be...that you guys are trying way too hard to create your own flaws in the movie? Be honest with yourselves.

This from the guy who can't be bothered to figure out what anyone is actually talking about. Be honest do you think it's because you aren't paying attention to things that you think a shit movie is good? I like some shit movies. Ever see Rad? Horrible movie. I love it. The nostalgia part of my brain won't let me find flaws in it, but I can admit it's not well made, why is that so hard for you to do?

Once again, the Trade Federation with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade routes. It follows that they don't like taxes, and are acting out so that the taxes are repealed.

Underlining words doesn't change their meaning. Please direct me to the scene that says who is getting taxed. Not some bullshit about tax routes, because we don't know who owns those. A line that says such and such is being taxed or a visual where someone is paying a tax, anything? Or show me the scene where the TF asks for the taxes to be repealed?

Maybe Naboo was a supporter or beneficiary of the taxes. Maybe the Trade Fed is just bullying a weaker planet, so that others can see the weight they have to throw around.

That's a lot of maybes. Its almost as if you don't know... I wonder why that is? So I assume you concede and admit you don't know what the taxes are about?

It does not matter, and the basic gist of things is easy enough for children to understand.

Can we get some children in here to explain to everyone why naboo is being attack? I asked my 5 year old niece and she said "I want more juice" Which could be a metaphor for taxes, I don't know. But what I do know is she seemed as bored as I did. However she tells me stories all the time, we should just hire her to write screenplays since as long as a kid gets it, it must be good storytelling.

I ask again: what are the themes of TPM?

I too would like to hear about these "themes" in TPM. Or should I just expect you to talk about hunting wildlife, jamming communication and lying about Bail some more. You fucking coward.

[Channel72]

You ask that like it's a hard question. The Death Star plans are a MacGuffin. You can remove them from the movie and still have basically the same story. Because all you need is for Luke to leave home, save the princess, then fight the Empire's big superweapon at the end.

Wow.

Okay... well, I guess this statement here reveals that you simply process storytelling in a way that is impossible for me to comprehend. You really think ANH would be "basically the same" if the Deathstar plans were removed? It doesn't occur to you that if this were the case, we wouldn't know why the fuck Darth Vader was doing anything we saw him do (beyond an extremely vague "he wants something from the rebels")? Jesus, I guess you really just don't care. (Either that, or you're just lying.) Thank God most films aren't written with you in mind. No, they usually take the time to explain to the audience why the things they see on screen are happening.

Ironically, if the invasion was written as a simple greedy land-grab by the Trade Federation, (or an attempt to mine some unobtainium on Naboo), nobody here would be complaining about this issue. But instead, the motive for the invasion is totally opaque. So basically we're supposed to care about a conflict which has no emotional force because we don't understand what the TF stands to gain from anything they're doing.

Whatever. At this point, you've basically been reduced to broken record nonsense where you just admit that we don't know what the fuck is going on in TPM, but then claim that it doesn't matter because there's other things to care about (like lightsabers and a pod-race.) Well, if that's really your opinion that's fine, but don't claim the OT was written the same way, or that the opaque plot of TPM represents some kind of normal standard for storytelling.

[Galvatron]

You know, Ridley Scott released a director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven on DVD to make sense of what many thought was an incomprehensible theatrical version. It's a shame that Lucas never had the stones to swallow his pride and do something similar with TPM. No, he just continues to make stupid modifications to the movies that never needed them.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

You know, Ridley Scott released a director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven on DVD to make sense of what many thought was an incomprehensible theatrical version. It's a shame that Lucas never had the stones to swallow his pride and do something similar with TPM. No, he just continues to make stupid modifications to the movies that never needed them.

To be fair: At least with the prequels it was effectively money in the bank. He'd established himself with the OT, and even if people only went to see the movies once and swore off SW ever afterwards thanks to the crap it was, that was still enough to make it a commercial success. While other stuff, like the EU and whatever, have ever lesser and more nerdy followings the further down you go, they also aren't multi-million dollar investments. Thus you have the OT which many people can still look back on with nostalgia, the PT which did their job as far as money-making was concerned, and the less expensive endeavors which can still make returns thanks to the very niche market of diehard fanboys supplemented by those occasional curio-seekers for anything new coming from the franchise.

What you're left with is that tiny little tribe of fanboys who will fanatically defend everything SW against all opposition, those desperate few who, for all intents and purposes, seem to have projected their own self-worth onto the SW franchise, and thus react to any criticism of SW as a criticism on themselves. When it comes right down to it, I don't give a shit if people like the PT. I can relate to that, I like plenty of things that are objectively shitty. The difference is I can admit when something I love is almost pure shit, but still love it anyways for my own reasons. I just find it both sad and amusing when the fanboy tribe rallies around their golden calf, determined to prove their worth through their fetish and striking out in any direction they can regardless of their complete lack of education in any of the subjects discussed. I sometimes wonder if they realize that no one else here really has any emotional investment in this except for entertainment value.

[Gunhead]

Man, the taxes may actually have been of benefit to the TF. We dont' even know if they wanted more tax, less tax, no tax, their own tax, or who was being taxed.

Luckily it has swordfights, so nobody minds.

You got it all wrong Stark, who cares about stupid swordfights between some guys in bathrobes. We need more tax debate in it, YEAH! Just think of the verbal dueling over the budget, that's the real important shit. Fuck, if Palpatine had been a really evil fucker he wouldn't have sent some clones to kill the Jedi, he would have sent one guy with a briefcase and an IRS badge. "Let's see Yoda backwards talk himself and the order out this one you pointy eared muppet BWAAAHAHAHAHAAHAH!". They'd kill themselves before the day was over.

-Gunhead

[Channel72]

What you're left with is that tiny little tribe of fanboys who will fanatically defend everything SW against all opposition, those desperate few who, for all intents and purposes, seem to have projected their own self-worth onto the SW franchise, and thus react to any criticism of SW as a criticism on themselves.

I actually give Raynor a little more credit than that. He admits TPM isn't so great. It's just that he seems to process storytelling in a way that only requires general impressions or rough sketches of storytelling elements to move the action along. He doesn't care if these impressions or sketches are filled in with concrete motivations or not. He actually admitted he wouldn't care if the Deathstar plans where removed from ANH, as long as we understand in general that Vader is evil and Luke is the hero. Therefore, he misinterprets (willfully or not) the criticism of TPM as some kind of geeky desire to fill in the plot with lots of trivial minutiae, (as if anyone here really wants a movie about fucking fictional tax codes - we just want some concrete motivation for our villains, dammit!). Therefore, most of his responses amount to strawman arguments.

[Bakustra]

So how do we translate the basal motivation of "money" into the actions taken in the films? Because we can translate the basal motivation of "power" into the actions taken by Palpatine, to a certain limited extent, but we cannot do so for the Trade Federation to any extent. They're blockading a planet? How does this get them money? That is what the film should explain, so that we can follow and understand why the Trade Federation are doing the things they do.

An economic dispute spun out of control and escalated into the use of military force. That's basically all that needs to be known. As I said before, a movie about the American Revolution doesn't have to make more than a cursory reference to taxes. A story about WWI doesn't have to explain why millions of people are dying because one guy got shot. The initial cause of the conflict pales in comparison to the conflict itself.

Once again, the Trade Federation with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade routes. It follows that they don't like taxes, and are acting out so that the taxes are repealed. Maybe Naboo was a supporter or beneficiary of the taxes. Maybe the Trade Fed is just bullying a weaker planet, so that others can see the weight they have to throw around. It does not matter, and the basic gist of things is easy enough for children to understand.

See, in a movie about the American Revolution or WWI, people already know "No taxation without representation" and that Archduke Franz Ferdinand's death touched off the war. But people don't know any of the fictional history within Star Wars without you presenting it within the movie.

You should never be allowed to experience fiction in any way, because you have no fucking idea how any of it works. You gabble about how the motivations of antagonists aren't important because related words are thrown around.

Yeah, I don't know how to "experience" fiction (as if there's a proper way to do that, other than non-retard) because I care more about the conflict that the movie is actually about (hint: the invasion of Naboo), the themes, the Republic's decline, Qui-Gon taking Anakin under his wing, or Anakin leaving his mother behind for a hopefully better future. And oh yeah, the laser guns and laser swords which are the reason why people even sit down for a movie titled "Star Wars."

But compared to the TAXES, none of that stuff really seems important, does it?

The proper way to experience fiction is dependent on the medium. You read a book, you watch a movie, you listen to a piece of music... I'm not surprised that you haven't a clue what "experience" means, given that you don't understand how interpretation works. You are literally the target audience for movies like Transformers 2. You believe that the primary reason people go to movies is for the shallowest of reasons.

But let me repeat this: What are the themes of TPM? How does the invasion of Naboo make sense without understanding why it was done?

Answer me this question. If you removed the Death Star Plans from ANH, would it still be a good movie?

You ask that like it's a hard question. The Death Star plans are a MacGuffin. You can remove them from the movie and still have basically the same story. Because all you need is for Luke to leave home, save the princess, then fight the Empire's big superweapon at the end.

You're a fucking idiot and you have no idea what makes a movie good or bad.

You got it all wrong Stark, who cares about stupid swordfights between some guys in bathrobes. We need more tax debate in it, YEAH! Just think of the verbal dueling over the budget, that's the real important shit. Fuck, if Palpatine had been a really evil fucker he wouldn't have sent some clones to kill the Jedi, he would have sent one guy with a briefcase and an IRS badge. "Let's see Yoda backwards talk himself and the order out this one you pointy eared muppet BWAAAHAHAHAHAAHAH!". They'd kill themselves before the day was over.

-Gunhead

God damn you're either pathologically dishonest or mentally warped. Should you be allowed to have a keyboard?

[Cesario]

When it comes right down to it, I don't give a shit if people like the PT. I can relate to that, I like plenty of things that are objectively shitty. The difference is I can admit when something I love is almost pure shit, but still love it anyways for my own reasons.

This really is a great quote. It reminds me of how I feel about the Death Gate series of novels. Inconsistent characterization, tons of false starts and buildup without payoff, and no more than a passing familiarity with the concept of continuity, but I absolutely adore them anyway.

[Stark]

It's an attitude. If you recommend someone a piece of art - whether it be a book, an image, a movie, whatever - and they don't like it, do you say 'oh. I like it, though' or do you say 'oh emm gee you cunt you so dumb why are you a hater fuuuuuuuu'?

Everyone likes stuff that isn't very good, for all kinds of reasons. Not everyone gets defensive when others don't share the enjoyment.

And nobody likes the last Deaths Gate novels. It's like Internet world building gone wrong .... In 1999. :v

[Cesario]

And nobody likes the last Deaths Gate novels. It's like Internet world building gone wrong .... In 1999. :v

I ... can't argue with that.

[Stark]

Do you remember the books that were about silly wizards as a social commentary in different cultures, and not appendix 6 'let's talk about black holes and where the rubbish goes'?

I readily confess they're on my kindle, though. I still dig book 3, even if much of it makes little sense.

[Cesario]

I think Serpent Mage was the strongest of the books, and by odd coincidence it was the last one I read, having started on Book 5, read to the end of 7, then gone back to read the original cycle.

I keep the whole set on my shelf. Though I've lost Dragon Wing two times loaning it out to people.

I also had a lot of fun following this read through:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?491 ... Gate-Cycle

[Gunhead]

God damn you're either pathologically dishonest or mentally warped. Should you be allowed to have a keyboard?

What's this? A little jedi fanboy who gets pissy when someone makes fun of his favorite bathrobed warriors in obvious and over the top way?
Take off your bathrobe.. I mean.."Jedi" robes and take a chill pill. I'm sure all those fictional characters really appreciate you jumping to their defence.

I don't see the how giving more expose on the tax issue would have improved the movie in any meaningful way. Sure, I think it would have been nice to know more about the whole political situation that led to the blockade and so forth, but the movie would still have been boring as fuck and no amount of background information can change that. In all these prequel threads there has been a strong undertone of people seeing the potential what could have been a great movie, only to be dragged down by the half assed way it was done.

-Gunhead

[Bakustra]

God damn you're either pathologically dishonest or mentally warped. Should you be allowed to have a keyboard?

What's this? A little jedi fanboy who gets pissy when someone makes fun of his favorite bathrobed warriors in obvious and over the top way?
Take off your bathrobe.. I mean.."Jedi" robes and take a chill pill. I'm sure all those fictional characters really appreciate you jumping to their defence.

I don't see the how giving more expose on the tax issue would have improved the movie in any meaningful way. Sure, I think it would have been nice to know more about the whole political situation that led to the blockade and so forth, but the movie would still have been boring as fuck and no amount of background information can change that. In all these prequel threads there has been a strong undertone of people seeing the potential what could have been a great movie, only to be dragged down by the half assed way it was done.

-Gunhead

You're representing this as "the whole movie should be about taxes lolololol", which is charitably a misrepresentation, and uncharitably a lie. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend that it is possible to give exposition without slowing things to a crawl.

-Someone who thinks manually signing a post is the sign of an unbalanced mind