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I do think it would not have been a bad thing for the Old Republic to have had more of a dedicated military on hand. A more powerful central government capable of keeping its thumb on any fractious members wouldn't have hurt either. And for the love of god, who thought letting corporations become member states in their own right was a good idea?

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2018-09-07 04:15pm I do think it would not have been a bad thing for the Old Republic to have had more of a dedicated military on hand. A more powerful central government capable of keeping its thumb on any fractious members wouldn't have hurt either.

One wonders if someone, somewhere, at some point, traded the Old Republic military to try and pass a spending bill somewhere else, and since it was cheaper on the budget, they just kept it going. Imagine if it was for Core World citizen tax cuts or something?

And for the love of god, who thought letting corporations become member states in their own right was a good idea?

Hey, without the Trade Federation or Techno Union being able to enforce their own trade and invade planets, the galaxy might experience an economic collapse. They're 'too big to fail'.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2018-09-07 04:15pm I do think it would not have been a bad thing for the Old Republic to have had more of a dedicated military on hand. A more powerful central government capable of keeping its thumb on any fractious members wouldn't have hurt either. And for the love of god, who thought letting corporations become member states in their own right was a good idea?

With no major outside foes, having only a small federal defensive force makes a certain amount of sense- as long as you don't allow large internal blocs to form private militaries. If a corporation or a criminal syndicate can outgun the feds, then the feds won't be the feds for much longer. And that, in essence, is what happened to the OR (with some help from Palpatine, who then took advantage of the crisis to gain power).

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-09-07 09:38pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2018-09-07 04:15pm I do think it would not have been a bad thing for the Old Republic to have had more of a dedicated military on hand. A more powerful central government capable of keeping its thumb on any fractious members wouldn't have hurt either. And for the love of god, who thought letting corporations become member states in their own right was a good idea?

With no major outside foes, having only a small federal defensive force makes a certain amount of sense- as long as you don't allow large internal blocs to form private militaries. If a corporation or a criminal syndicate can outgun the feds, then the feds won't be the feds for much longer. And that, in essence, is what happened to the OR (with some help from Palpatine, who then took advantage of the crisis to gain power).

Keep in mind that those are the known forces. Qui Gon and Obi Wan didn't seem surprised that the Trade Federation has their own army and navy, for example. At the same time, we see two instances of hidden militaries being developed, unbeknownst to the Galactic Republic or the Jedi, at the same time(the droid army on Geonosis and the clone army on Kamino).

While they do seem to be expensive(even bankrupting the Republic with them having to take on further loans in Clone Wars), it's shown that if one wanted, a minor power could make their own military in about a decade or so if left unchecked that could seriously fight whatever forces are in the galaxy. And this is during a time of peace in the Republic.

I'm only left to wonder what would happen if someone set up a factory in the Outer Rim somewhere and just waited a decade for it to produce a huge military to conquer the galaxy with only their own forces, as it would be possible. Revan did it with his Star Forge, and G0-T0 did it with Revan's HK Manufacturing Plant. Imagine if someone like say, Maul, Hondo, or Pre Vizla made or found one of these facilities in secret?

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-08-22 02:04pm So, what sort of reforms would have enabled the Old Republic to survive, presuming that Palpatine and Maul die in a freak accident sometime around Phantom Menace? Alternately, if Palpatine is still alive, what actions would be necessary to counteract his influence successfully and maintain the Republic, presuming it is even possible?

Honestly, I think with the Sith dying, the odds of the Republic falling are pretty small. Yes, things are pretty unstable at the moment, and there could even be a civil war, but the Sith are the key thing that transitioned that into a Republic-killer. Even a potential Clone Wars, *if* it still happened at all which without Sidious's influence is less like, would simply be won and the Republic re-established, and someone like Bail Organa could enact reforms. However without Sith pushing all the CIS factions together, the blow-ups might be a lot smaller and fallout less. Without Sidious, unless the Confederacy outright wins- unlikely- then you've got a wounded Republic which has time to act.


On the flip side, if Sids is not dead, then I don't think any specific reform or such will do, because he'll simply shift plans to something else and the built-up tension that's been stoked for a long time is going to give some exploitable cracks that he can pry wide from his position of power. It'd take really drastic actions and probably an understanding it's actively being pushed for.

What the Republic needs then is a security council that would create, maintain and control military/police forces. Audited by the Jedi perhaps, whose Force abilities would be better suited to seeing through deception and lies.

Q99 wrote: ↑2018-09-09 03:16am On the flip side, if Sids is not dead, then I don't think any specific reform or such will do, because he'll simply shift plans to something else and the built-up tension that's been stoked for a long time is going to give some exploitable cracks that he can pry wide from his position of power.

Notably--

--Divides between peaceful and militaristic societies. Alderaanians are unlikely to get along very well with the Mandalorians, Satine's reforms aside, for example.

--Wealthy worlds versus less well off systems. Why should Kuat pay a large amount of taxes to support Tattooine? Etc.

--Former CIS entities vs. Republic members, particularly those that suffered during the Clone Wars.

Really it's not that hard to think of issues which he could easily exploit within the Republic, most of them seem to have existed already. They just didn't explode into open warfare because it wasn't worth it until Sidious gave the situation a push.

The thing to remember that corruption within the Old Republic was less about people giving each other suitcases full of republic credits. It was more sudtle with faction x making deals to support faction y in one issue in exchange for support in another issue, while it's true that these things happen in healthy nations too, the issue with the Republic is that local issues are the only thing anyone is concerned about.

Ironically Darth Sidious did good thing to the Republic by unifying them back to single nation rather then a collection of systems that sort of pretend to work to together but only when it doesn't interfare with their narrow sighted selfish intrests.

That's part of a problem, with late Galactic Republic things like "a stable crime-free outerrim is a good thing for all" would be impossible to sell to wealthy systems as it's a collective intrest that would benefit them in the long run but not something they could benefit right away.

As far as I can tell, the normal life cycle of the Republic is 'every few centuries undergo major reforms to fix the current problems.' The creation of the Trade Federation was actually part of the last one.

Q99 wrote: ↑2018-09-10 11:26am As far as I can tell, the normal life cycle of the Republic is 'every few centuries undergo major reforms to fix the current problems.' The creation of the Trade Federation was actually part of the last one.

not heard of those but in legendaries (and possibly current canon not sure) there was several times the republic was reduced to "in name only" and after it as rebuilt some reforms were made as responce to what ever caused the problem in the first place. With the latest being the Ruusan reformation that was made in responce to militarization during the last sith war.

Lord Revan wrote: ↑2018-09-10 08:42am The thing to remember that corruption within the Old Republic was less about people giving each other suitcases full of republic credits. It was more sudtle with faction x making deals to support faction y in one issue in exchange for support in another issue, while it's true that these things happen in healthy nations too, the issue with the Republic is that local issues are the only thing anyone is concerned about.

Ironically Darth Sidious did good thing to the Republic by unifying them back to single nation rather then a collection of systems that sort of pretend to work to together but only when it doesn't interfare with their narrow sighted selfish intrests.

Except he didn't really unify the Republic- he united most of the humans (particularly rich core humans) against the alien species of the galaxy, mainly. And it still ended with him being deposed by an armed revolt and prolonged instability and conflict.

If Palpatine had wanted to, he could have stopped after the victory in the Clone Wars. Relinquished some of his emergency powers, while using the prestige of a victorious wartime leader to pass reforms to create a more centralized government. Hell, he could even have made himself a constitutional monarch, had a kid (or adopted one) to perpetuate the dynasty- its not the system I'd prefer on principle, and he probably would have faced some opposition from people like Organna, but he could have done it. Had he done so, he probably would have gone down as the greatest leader that the galaxy ever had. But he didn't, because his goal wasn't to save the galaxy- it was absolute power for himself, and fuck everyone else. Hence his designing the Empire to collapse upon his death, and playing his subordinates against each other to protect his own power.

That's part of a problem, with late Galactic Republic things like "a stable crime-free outerrim is a good thing for all" would be impossible to sell to wealthy systems as it's a collective intrest that would benefit them in the long run but not something they could benefit right away.

The thing to do would be to do something to provoke the Outer Rim crime syndicates (mainly the Hutts) into starting a fight without making it obvious that that's what you were doing, or find evidence of something they are already doing that will sufficiently outrage the public, then sic the Jedi Order on them while using the war to justify some (moderate) consolidation of federal power and greater regulation of private militaries. Basically a more modest, less self-serving version of Palpatine's plan, actually, except you don't backstab the Jedi at the end of it.

That's basically what I'd do if I became Chancellor around the Naboo crisis, probably.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-08-23 05:35am Corruption - My earlier comments

The most revealing source on this topic is surely Plagueis which shows the degree to which the sith were actually responsible for the corruption of the Republic, such as it is.

And the Republic honestly isn't that corrupt - we don't see bribes being paid on an everyday basis, nor does anyone we see from the Republic police - for instance - seem to expect such things, though of course we only see them on murder investigations most of the time.

We also don't know how true some things are. The Courts are gridlocked and inefficient? So much so that they do not function? Is that true... or is Palpatine simply keen not having the Niemodians cross examined by a talented lawyer? Does Doltray Dofine look like someone who would be cool on a witness stand? He's not exactly calm and collected when confronted by Jedi.


The thing is the conspiracy presented in Darth Plageuis owes a lot conceptually to New World Order type antics, in which the majority of those affected by the corruption of the Republic regularly visit Darth Plagueis (and then Palpatine's) secret retreat to recieve marching orders and to make their back-room details, and it is made clear that a lot of this is directly orchastrated by the sith.

It is not institutional corruption in the way of a real world failed state, it is corruption in the mould tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists fear; top down managed corruption.

Do you feel that the real world is corrupt? Like no we don't see bribes being paid on an everyday basis, but that's because sacks of cash are very crass. When China gives a great deal to Ivanka Trump's clothing line and Trump backs of Taiwan being separate from China as a result, is that a bribe? When Timothy Geitner protects private equity and predatory loan practices from prosecution and then heads up a firm where he rakes it in as a private equity specialist focused on predator lending, how about that?

Do you feel that justice and democracy are part of daily life in the United States?

Because here's the thing, the stuff that brought about our present situation is what is recapped in Plagueis with a veneer of star wars-ism smeared on top of it. Like the way he portrays Sith doctrine is basically a copy paste from The Reactionary Mind. And what we saw of the end was pretty textbook as well -why reinvent history after all?

We more or less know how the Republic fell. You had great colonial powers having parties that existed to deliver on their specific interests, not ideological interests but specific geographic and class interests. You had the core powers dominating outward and the rimward pushing back, upending things and getting additional votes in the senate, defending their own interests. And of course as it is turtles all the way down you had the leaders of those rim powers upset with pro-democracy pushes from below them. And over the course of decades the Sith through their parties and retreats and institutes and books and treatises and think tanks brought about those parties to framing their pursuit of those interests in terms of Sith doctrine about the need of the strong to dominate, the pursuit of power, how you proved power and worthiness in business, hunting, and on the battlefield, and how the modern constraints of the republic stiffled it all. So you had growing disillusionment of popular democracy framed as a loss of decisive action like in "the good old days"

That's step one.

That the corruption we see is small and direct is the result of how the novels focus, not limiting what is happening. That Sidious kept the Niemodians off the stand is fairly small yes, but that the system is so broken that he could easily and secretly do so is the greater corruption we are told was happening. Bounty Hunters instead of police, mercenaries instead of state controlled armies, murder, bribery, blackmail...but more to the point the regular soft bribery of there being no consequences for the elites, while dire for the poor. That it is so rare for the rich and powerful to see any consequences for their actions that one of them doing so is a heroic tale is a pretty good indicator that the widespread corruption and backscratching is widely spread. And to this comes the New Order movement, pledging reform and anti corruption - not in the form of a redistribution of power, but in the maintaining of the present system but with coercive force. From this come people like the Sieners, the Tarkins, the Tagges and Palpatine. The movement, in response to deadlock has become a major player.

That's step two.

You had the rise of confrontational parties demanding a massive restructuring of the vote and senate representation; an end of existing business practices and debt peonage, an end to structural bigotry and oppression. It was loose and uncoordinated and had its degrees of extremes, but this was the rising discontent that took the form of splinter cells, strikers, revolutionaries, smugglers with hearts of gold and pirates who gave up the cause for the excuse for more evil. In response to this Valorum invites Palpatine to take a larger role in sharing power hoping that Palpatine and the new order can offset this rising discontent.

That's step three.

Valorum's response was unlikely to work in any case, the source of the discontent was real because you had great powers out causing real misery. But in particular it didn't work because the Sith were aiding and formenting that dissent, pushing the elites to cause more pain as they enacted Sith doctrine while simultaneously giving resources and direction to the people upset to aid their pushback. The keystone here being the Invasion of Naboo. Which lead to Palpatine and the new order movement in control of the state in balance with the Jedi and traditional elites of the core powers.

That's step four.

But of course the rise of Palpatine had a radicalizing effect - the various factions opposing the elites had a situation where the moderates bought in with the new order, and the hardliners were frozen out of power, but were simultaneously proven right and given more resources as the Sith picked where the "reform" took place and who they aided and connected. War broke out and it became instantly disillusioning as mass trauma driven by brutal real-politik saw the "glory" of war revealed as pointless horror. The Republic slipped into traditional authoritarian rule until the time of Order 66 where it fully radicalized.

Step five.

So, the end of the Republic saw political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing.

textbook

To save it, you'd want to either stop the adoption of sith style doctrine from the retreats, or have one of the previous chancellors go full leftist reformist. Anakin's treason mattered in the balance of the divine, but in the profane those dominoes were falling long before Plagueis was born.


It's kinda like how our present situation we see the purge of radicals from unions and capital adopting shareholder value theory, so managerial independence getting neutered as a result, leading to the short termism that even places like Forbes, Bloomberg, and The Economist can't deny. And when you've gutted great swaths of the country and need ever more to prove yourself the elites move into growing disillusionment of popular democracy framed as a loss of decisive action like in "the good old days". So you gerrymander and vote suppress and steal court appointments. That's not going to be enough going forward, because the democrats won't sign on to any more antics so polarization needs to be overcome, for that you need to combat demographics even further, you need to get whites off the bench and poc off the country. So aided by political deadlock and polarization, fascists becomes a player on the national stage. And hey shit Brat just took out Cantor, invite these freaks to share power on the national stage to keep them off your back in the primaries, and the Trump candidacy will flame out in the primaries so you can step back in charge. And if Marco can't get it done, well, Hillary won't forget to go to Wisconsin or actually campaign, right? Well shit, now the movement and its charismatic leader control the state in balance with state institutions such as the police and traditional elites such as the clergy and business magnates. And here we are slipping to stage five. Where the offramp was decades go, giving workers control at the office like in Germany, keeping capital from insisting on its return to dominance with SVT by banning leveraged buyouts (a way to enforce against management) and not tamping down on union actions (management needs a great deal of latitude to balance a well organized and active workforce against organized money), or by not putting filth like Bill Clinton in charge and having had actual reform then instead of continuing republican policies.

But there we are.

Ender wrote: ↑2018-09-17 12:23amDo you feel that the real world is corrupt?

No.

Like no we don't see bribes being paid on an everyday basis, but that's because sacks of cash are very crass. When China gives a great deal to Ivanka Trump's clothing line and Trump backs of Taiwan being separate from China as a result, is that a bribe? When Timothy Geitner protects private equity and predatory loan practices from prosecution and then heads up a firm where he rakes it in as a private equity specialist focused on predator lending, how about that?

Do you feel that justice and democracy are part of daily life in the United States?

Yes.

Because here's the thing, the stuff that brought about our present situation is what is recapped in Plagueis with a veneer of star wars-ism smeared on top of it. Like the way he portrays Sith doctrine is basically a copy paste from The Reactionary Mind. And what we saw of the end was pretty textbook as well -why reinvent history after all?

I can't help but think you were expecting some Romulan Republic style hyperventilating from me? I perceive the United States' democratic institutions as relatively strong and certainly not in some sort of terminal decline that would justify comparing it to 'The Old Republic could not be saved, dictatorship by military strongman was inevitable' line of reasoning. Both of these answers have nuances particularly regarding the US judicial system but on the whole, no, I don't think the real world (meaning America from the context you used) is corrupt, and I do think that democracy and justice are part of daily life in the USA.

If you want my opinions on such in more detail, feel free to ask via PM or over in N&P as I view more details on my opinions regarding modern politics than this as essentially a thread hijack.

What if the Jedi had reacted to the news of Palpatine's true nature with a cooler head?

Rather than staging a coup, they could have killed General Grievous and called his bluff about ending the war. What then?

Please forgive me if I'm retreading something that's been addressed already.

Then they would have been purged anyway. Order 66 was always the plan for the end of the war.

The war would find a way to drag on, proving the indecisive leadership of the Jedi is prolonging the conflict. Instead of just burning, they would crash first. It would probably be better, in fact; the Jedi wouldn't have as many followers or as much sympathy. Which makes sense, given that the coup was unexpected.

Where Palpatine really fucked up is the sheer number of clone troopers who disobeyed Order 66 and allowed their Jedi to escape. In fact, according to a lot of the comics, he didn't even bag all that many of the high level Jedi outside the council. Not much can be done for that, though, other than make sure the galaxy hates those that do escape.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-09-18 10:55am I can't help but think you were expecting some Romulan Republic style hyperventilating from me? I perceive the United States' democratic institutions as relatively strong and certainly not in some sort of terminal decline that would justify comparing it to 'The Old Republic could not be saved, dictatorship by military strongman was inevitable' line of reasoning. Both of these answers have nuances particularly regarding the US judicial system but on the whole, no, I don't think the real world (meaning America from the context you used) is corrupt, and I do think that democracy and justice are part of daily life in the USA.

If you want my opinions on such in more detail, feel free to ask via PM or over in N&P as I view more details on my opinions regarding modern politics than this as essentially a thread hijack.

While I have no wish to hijack the thread, I feel obliged to point out that this is not an accurate characterization of my views on contemporary American politics (which I regard as deeply corrupt, but certainly not "...in... terminal decline..." or beyond saving. Such views should not be attributed to me.

Back on topic:

Galvatron wrote: ↑2018-09-20 04:33am What if the Jedi had reacted to the news of Palpatine's true nature with a cooler head?

Rather than staging a coup, they could have killed General Grievous and called his bluff about ending the war. What then?

Please forgive me if I'm retreading something that's been addressed already.

I think KraytKing and NecronLord have the right of it, more or less, at least as far as Order 66 goes. Palpatine could still have issued the order, and killed a lot of Jedi. And if Palpatine ever ran out of other options, I expect he would trigger it.

That said, I think he'd have a harder time selling his new Empire to the galaxy without the threat of a "Jedi coup" and the sympathy begotten by the injuries he sustained at the hands of Mace Windu. Maybe he could have come up with another excuse-Palpatine is a master of spin-but there might be more doubt, and more of a need to rely on brute force from the get-go, before he was ready to go full Tarkin Doctrine, rather than the gradual instating of the Empire while maintaining the pretense of pseudo-democracy in the form of a rubber stamp Senate.

Reg. the failure of Order 66 to kill a lot of high-level Jedi, Vader raises pretty much this exact point in the Legends novel Dark Lord (an excellent source for insights on Palpatine and Vader), and Palpatine counters that it doesn't matter because the Order is finished and the survivors are forced into hiding. Of course, considering that a Jedi plot ultimately lead to his death, this was certainly characteristic complacency on his part.

I picked up Dark Lord, but didn't get more than a handful of pages in. I've heard here and elsewhere since of some pretty interesting stuff in it. I might pick it up again. An Palpatine seems to have the right of it: the Jedi as a galactic power were broken, and hunting down the remainder and their allies would serve as a good existential threat for the galaxy, to justify his continued militarization for a time.

Valid points, although Jedi being what they are, even one Jedi can represent an extremely serious threat of assassination (which is exactly what happened to Palpatine).

You should definitely read Dark Lord, though. Though technically no longer canon, its well-worth the read. Like I said, its full of insights on Vader, Palpatine and the Sith, has good characters in my opinion, and is just a fun story. Of all the old EU novels, Dark Lord is hands down the one I was most sorry to lose from canon.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-09-20 05:32am Then they would have been purged anyway. Order 66 was always the plan for the end of the war.

But didn't the Jedi play right into his hands with their "coup attempt," thus providing a casus belli for the purge? After all, he could have sent out Order 66 at any time before then and told Dooku that it was time to end the war, but I doubt that the Senate (or the rest the galactic populace) would have passively accepted the mass murder of the Jedi for no apparent reason.

It's kinda like how he needed the Death Star to be operational before he could disband the Senate. He wasn't stupid enough to think that he could just openly do evil overlord shit without reaping unwanted consequences.

Galvatron wrote: ↑2018-09-21 05:35pm

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-09-20 05:32am Then they would have been purged anyway. Order 66 was always the plan for the end of the war.

But didn't the Jedi play right into his hands with their "coup attempt," thus providing a casus belli for the purge? After all, he could have sent out Order 66 at any time before then and told Dooku that it was time to end the war, but I doubt that the Senate (or the rest the galactic populace) would have passively accepted the mass murder of the Jedi for no apparent reason.

It's kinda like how he needed the Death Star to be operational before he could disband the Senate. He wasn't stupid enough to think that he could just openly do evil overlord shit without reaping unwanted consequences.

^That. Palpatine wasn't an idiot. I don't think he was some kind of super-genius... but he was smart enough to have plans B, C, D, and so forth. If the Jedi hadn't given him a pretext to kill them off, he'd have come up with something else. Some kind of Separatist mind-control beam to disguise Order 66-- they already had Genosian zombie-mind-control worms in a Clone Wars episode, after all, for example, manipulating clones to kill the Jedi off. Whoops, the Separatists have managed to kill most of the Jedi? Oh no, let's send our most trusted negotiator, Lord Skywalker, to... negotiate a peace treaty. Point being, he would've had other ways to achieve his victory, and by at least the mid-Clone Wars or so, it's probably too late to save the Republic outside of assassinating him outright.

Even with that, odds are good the Republic might fragment. There are too many competing nation-states as part of it, and without a powerful Chancellor to hold the coalition together, there's no real way they're all going to get along. Bail Organa or Mon Mothma are possibilities, I suppose, but it's an open question.

Better, I think, to have eliminated Palpatine before the Sith were able to infiltrate the highest levels of Galactic government. Without him, their job at least becomes harder.

But if the coup never happens, the Jedi Order remains in good standing with the Senate and Anakin isn't a full-blown Sith Lord. Even if a lot of Jedi are killed by "mind-controlled clones," how does Palpatine deal with the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu and Obi-Wan chilling out on Coruscant?

Orbital bombardment of the jedi temple?

It's possible he actually had no alternative plan but was sure things would go his way because of his precognition.

He certainly thought things would go his way on the second Death Star

He has the war go badly, refusing to end. He then has the Jedi removed from command for ineptitude, replacing them with brutal Imperial-style leadership, hopefully provoking them. If that fails, appoint Moffs to run the war. Gather more emergency powers. Proclaim the Empire in order to finally annihilate the Separatist threat. Limit basic freedoms and nationalize corporations. Basically, Imperialize the galaxy gradually, until the Jedi are forced into a coup. At some point they have to fight back, and then you have them. He controls both sides of the war, so he can make it go on for as long and go as badly as he needs.