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Huh. Fair enough then.

Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2018-06-17 07:50am Huh. Fair enough then.

Yeah, it's why the First Order's sweeping conquest of the New Republic just speaks of the NR's incompetence when they're in a cold war with other states but can still be utterly dominated militarily by a terrorist group, and their Cold War rival appears to be just sitting on their hands.

The NR has problems, but I think its pretty obvious that the First Order is more than a mere terrorist group in the sense that the term is usually used. They control planets. They have capital ships and strategic weapons that are larger, and presumably more powerful, than those of either the NR or the Galactic Empire. Their campaign against the NR was a surprise WMD attack followed by a conventional military invasion. They wage war like a major power, not a terrorist group. If the EU calls them a terrorist group, that's the EU being dumbasses. Again.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-06-17 09:26pm The NR has problems, but I think its pretty obvious that the First Order is more than a mere terrorist group in the sense that the term is usually used. They control planets. They have capital ships and strategic weapons that are larger, and presumably more powerful, than those of either the NR or the Galactic Empire. Their campaign against the NR was a surprise WMD attack followed by a conventional military invasion. They wage war like a major power, not a terrorist group. If the EU calls them a terrorist group, that's the EU being dumbasses. Again.

Considering that JJ Abram's intent was to explore what happened to the Nazis after they relocated to South America, and then made that the dominating force, that's not just an EU problem, it's an intended theme. Like it or not, the First Order was Imperial Remnant groups who went outside the New Republic's radar due to Mon Mothma declaring ALL Imperial Officers war criminals, most of them fled to join the First Order. That, and the Centrist supporters in the New Republic also giving support to them.

First Order Wookiepedia page

Following the Battle of Jakku, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and the New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma signed the Galactic Concordance, which dissolved the Imperial government. Mothma then issued another declaration designating all surviving Imperial officers as war criminals.[14] In response, many Imperial nobles, technologists,[15] warlords,[5] and officers fled the Empire into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic.

Imagine if the same thing had happened in the American Civil War, how the South would have reacted. This, in addition to the other mistakes the NR made, shows that ideals, while great, were too far to survive.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2018-06-18 02:19pmConsidering that JJ Abram's intent was to explore what happened to the Nazis after they relocated to South America, and then made that the dominating force, that's not just an EU problem, it's an intended theme. Like it or not, the First Order was Imperial Remnant groups who went outside the New Republic's radar due to Mon Mothma declaring ALL Imperial Officers war criminals, most of them fled to join the First Order. That, and the Centrist supporters in the New Republic also giving support to them.

First Order Wookiepedia page

I knew that Abrams made a comment comparing the First Order to a hypothetical neo-Nazi regime in Argentina or something. But I doubt it was intended to be an exact analogy, and regardless of his intent, the First Order does not have even a remote resemblance to the capabilities or actions of actual historical Nazis in Argentina. A behind-the-scenes claim by the director is not sufficient grounds using to summarily dismiss my actual on-screen evidence of their capabilities and strategies.

They behave like, and have the capabilities of, a major power waging a conventional war, not a small terrorist insurgent group.

Following the Battle of Jakku, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and the New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma signed the Galactic Concordance, which dissolved the Imperial government. Mothma then issued another declaration designating all surviving Imperial officers as war criminals.[14] In response, many Imperial nobles, technologists,[15] warlords,[5] and officers fled the Empire into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic.

Imagine if the same thing had happened in the American Civil War, how the South would have reacted. This, in addition to the other mistakes the NR made, shows that ideals, while great, were too far to survive.[/quote]

The South would have risen in revolt again, of course.

On the other hand, given that in the real world, the lenient treatment of the South was met with the creation of the Klan, a systematic campaign of terrorism across the entire South with the support of Southern governments, and a century-plus of segregation, Jim Crow, and lynchings, many would argue that the South was let off too easily.

I can't really fault Mon Mothma for adopting such a policy towards ex-Imperial officers (excluding those who had defected to the Rebels/NR prior to the truce, at least). I do fault the NR government for thinking that the NR could adopt a hard-line approach without the military force to actually back it up, however. You don't adopt a hard-line, non-conciliatory approach and gut your military at the same time.

In any case, though, I would say that its not fair to criticize the films based on EU shit that never appears in them.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-06-18 02:38pm

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2018-06-18 02:19pmConsidering that JJ Abram's intent was to explore what happened to the Nazis after they relocated to South America, and then made that the dominating force, that's not just an EU problem, it's an intended theme. Like it or not, the First Order was Imperial Remnant groups who went outside the New Republic's radar due to Mon Mothma declaring ALL Imperial Officers war criminals, most of them fled to join the First Order. That, and the Centrist supporters in the New Republic also giving support to them.

First Order Wookiepedia page

I knew that Abrams made a comment comparing the First Order to a hypothetical neo-Nazi regime in Argentina or something. But I doubt it was intended to be an exact analogy, and regardless of his intent, the First Order does not have even a remote resemblance to the capabilities or actions of actual historical Nazis in Argentina. A behind-the-scenes claim by the director is not sufficient grounds using to summarily dismiss my actual on-screen evidence of their capabilities and strategies.

They behave like, and have the capabilities of, a major power waging a conventional war, not a small terrorist insurgent group.

Following the Battle of Jakku, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and the New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma signed the Galactic Concordance, which dissolved the Imperial government. Mothma then issued another declaration designating all surviving Imperial officers as war criminals.[14] In response, many Imperial nobles, technologists,[15] warlords,[5] and officers fled the Empire into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic.

Imagine if the same thing had happened in the American Civil War, how the South would have reacted. This, in addition to the other mistakes the NR made, shows that ideals, while great, were too far to survive.

The South would have risen in revolt again, of course.

On the other hand, given that in the real world, the lenient treatment of the South was met with the creation of the Klan, a systematic campaign of terrorism across the entire South with the support of Southern governments, and a century-plus of segregation, Jim Crow, and lynchings, many would argue that the South was let off too easily.

I can't really fault Mon Mothma for adopting such a policy towards ex-Imperial officers (excluding those who had defected to the Rebels/NR prior to the truce, at least). I do fault the NR government for thinking that the NR could adopt a hard-line approach without the military force to actually back it up, however. You don't adopt a hard-line, non-conciliatory approach and gut your military at the same time.

In any case, though, I would say that its not fair to criticize the films based on EU shit that never appears in them.

Really? You think it's just, for example, to arrest and try officers who were in charge of, say, the Imperial Base Exchange on Kuat, or any flight officer who ever flew a Tie-fighter guarding convoys against pirates? That's one heck of a harsh line to draw in the sand.

The link you posted makes it sound that only officers that ignored the treaty and refused to surrender were branded war criminals.

Which seems reasonable to me. And unless you have a specific source, I doubt they're treating ensign no-one and admiral in-charge exactly the same.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-06-18 02:49pm The link you posted makes it sound that only officers that ignored the treaty and refused to surrender were branded war criminals.

Which seems reasonable to me. And unless you have a specific source, I doubt they're treating ensign no-one and admiral in-charge exactly the same.

If that's the case, then that's more understandable, but the way it's worded, it makes sense as to why huge swathes of Imperial Officers fled for Unknown space, fearing the New Republic's wrath.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-06-18 02:49pm The link you posted makes it sound that only officers that ignored the treaty and refused to surrender were branded war criminals.

Which seems reasonable to me. And unless you have a specific source, I doubt they're treating ensign no-one and admiral in-charge exactly the same.

Yeah, that's a pretty important distinction.

As to branding all Imperial officers war criminals... its harsh, yes. Probably not practical. But I can see where one might be coming from on a decision like that. Because when you brought up the Civil War, it reminded me of how the Southern leadership got relatively generous terms in the US Civil War, and (some notable exceptions aside) spent the next 150 years doing their best to treat black people as close to slaves as possible, while pretending that they were the real victims/heroes, until they finally managed to get a Klan-endorsed President elected in two thousand and fucking sixteen.

Its not always practical, or possible, to give the servants of tyranny what they deserve, but there can be real consequences for just letting bygones be bygones for the sake of political convenience. And anyone who was still serving the Empire after Alderan was either completely indoctrinated, or knew exactly what kind of regime they were serving.

Funnily enough, I dug a little deeper:
The Imperial Instruments of Surrender

The Imperial Instruments of Surrender was a document signed by New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma and Galactic Empire Grand Vizier Mas Amedda following the Battle of Jakku in 5 ABY. The Instruments marked an initial armistice between both factions, setting the stage to a formal end to hostilities and reduction of the Empire's power.[5] It forced the defeated Empire to abide by the terms of the Galactic Concordance. Mon Mothma issued another declaration designating all surviving Imperial officers as war criminals but granting conditional pardons to civilian functionaries including Mas Amedda, provided they complied with the articles of the Galactic Concordance.[1] Despite this formality, the Imperial Navy was in fact allowed to remain united, so long as it remained within the borders of the Imperial remnant.[6] The officers who did not accept surrender retreated to the outer portions of the galaxy and established another faction. These war criminals would then keep their forces at the ready in case conflict were to break out, leading to a cold war between the Imperial hardliners and the New Republic.[7]

The signing of the Imperial Instruments of Surrender took place north of Hanna City, capital city of the planet Chandrila.[1]

So, civilian officials like Mas Amedda who abided the terms were pardoned, Stormtrooper Ricky is put on trial.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-06-18 03:14pm

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-06-18 02:49pm The link you posted makes it sound that only officers that ignored the treaty and refused to surrender were branded war criminals.

Which seems reasonable to me. And unless you have a specific source, I doubt they're treating ensign no-one and admiral in-charge exactly the same.

Yeah, that's a pretty important distinction.

As to branding all Imperial officers war criminals... its harsh, yes. Probably not practical. But I can see where one might be coming from on a decision like that.

You would definitely get your longer war for the New Republic. Maybe even some good old style purges if things carried on long enough, the way the French and Russian revolutions did. I'm sure that would definitely tilt the Galaxy's Overton Window on Imperial government.

The Galactic Empire seemed to fall apart after Palpatine died, with elements within it even vying to ensure that both sides destroyed themselves. Mostly due to the Contingency plan put in place by Palpatine if he died, making way for the First Order. But then, we all know how evil a prick he was.

Because when you brought up the Civil War, it reminded me of how the Southern leadership got relatively generous terms in the US Civil War, and (some notable exceptions aside) spent the next 150 years doing their best to treat black people as close to slaves as possible, while pretending that they were the real victims/heroes, until they finally managed to get a Klan-endorsed President elected in two thousand and fucking sixteen.

Its not always practical, or possible, to give the servants of tyranny what they deserve, but there can be real consequences for just letting bygones be bygones for the sake of political convenience. And anyone who was still serving the Empire after Alderaan was either completely indoctrinated, or knew exactly what kind of regime they were serving.

Yeah, they were indoctrinated into thinking the Jedi were evil and the Empire was good, but didn't think there was any other choice in the kind of galaxy they were in until someone gave them one, like Luke did for Del Meeko.

link



Instead, they were told they were all war criminals and needed to be arrested, even after signing a peace treaty with the New Republic. That's a great way to make peace.

Maybe during the peace treaty, Mon Mothma could even make sure that the Imperial delegation's pen is dry so that they could borrow hers for the signing, and make even more bad blood and humiliating defeat. It's not like they would regret it in 20 to 30 years when the next generation of Imperials are adults and mad about where they stand as a nation.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-06-10 04:43am They had declined in numbers significantly by the movies.

What was the reason for the Jedi shrinking? Was the connection to the Force growing weaker/more selective? Or did the Order begin to limit itself for some reason?


As to the state of things after the fall of the Empire, I would have thought that some form of Confederacy of major powers would have been a more natural flow rather than everyone going "hey, lets just slap a fresh coat of paint on everything!" There were always large spheres of influence within the Empire/Republic, and with Palpatine's fall, they'd suddenly be free. Maybe a political situation very similar to Babylon 5 would develop, with the larger nation states (not necessarily built on race/species) standing alone with some coalitions or leagues of the smaller spheres joining forces, all jockeying to keep each other in check.

NeoGoomba wrote: ↑2018-06-20 01:51pm

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-06-10 04:43am They had declined in numbers significantly by the movies.

What was the reason for the Jedi shrinking? Was the connection to the Force growing weaker/more selective? Or did the Order begin to limit itself for some reason?

Not an expert but off the top of my head: After the (supposed) end of the Sith ~1000 years ago, said war having killed many Jedi, they never really built back up as they didn't see as much of a need for it. Immediately prior to the Clone Wars as well there were some brief conflicts which took their toll, the Yinchorri Uprising and the Stark Hyperspace War to name a couple. And of course, Sith machinations hidden deep in the political structure of the Republic didn't help...