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Fair enough, I suppose.

Though I would say that its to some extent Vader as seen from the perspective of an ordinary rebel soldier, as opposed to from the perspective of Vader himself, or someone (like Luke or Obi-wan) who is more of a peer of his.

I don't see it as just a demonstration of effects technology, but a use of that technology to show Vader's power, why he was so feared, and to show the conflict from the perspective of the ordinary soldiers.

The Vader point has been covered others, so I will touch on another. Tarkin being truly ruthless in taking out Krennic is wholly consistent with what he did in ANH. In both cases the Death Star and the plans were but a means to an end.

His lack of concern about the Rebel fleet was exactly the same behavior we saw in ANH. Did you notice the slight smile when he order the Death Star to Scarif? He wasn't exactly concerned, it was simply an opportunity to wipe out Krennic entirely.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yeah, if he's boarding a Mon Calimari cruiser with a shuttle, they're going to be badly outnumbered. And speed was of the essence. The only one who'd have had a chance of cutting through that many troops that quickly was Vader.

Why was speed of the essence?

Did Vader knew that Tantine IV was docked at the Mon Calimari cruiser?

If yes, why was its escape route not blocked?

Why wasn't Tantine IV attacked?

The Mon Calimari was disabled and could not escape. The Tantive IV still could.

And if not, why was speed of the essence?

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yup. Its a situation where speed is essential to prevent the escape of the plans, with a lot of soldiers in the way, and Vader is the ideal person for handling exactly that sort of situation.

If the door between the Calimari cruiser and Tantine IV were not stucked, the soldier with the plans could have been on the Tantine IV far earlier; the Tantine IV could have started earlier and Vader had not had even the slightest chance to prevent their escape.

WATCH-MAN wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yeah, if he's boarding a Mon Calimari cruiser with a shuttle, they're going to be badly outnumbered. And speed was of the essence. The only one who'd have had a chance of cutting through that many troops that quickly was Vader.

Why was speed of the essence?

Because the plans might have escaped, which is exactly what happened.

Did Vader knew that Tantine IV was docked at the Mon Calimari cruiser?

He would know that the Mon Calimari cruiser would likely carry various smaller vessels aboard, just as an ISD would.

If yes, why was its escape route not blocked?

Hell if I know. Perhaps because the only vessels in position to do so were the Death Star and the Devastator, Tarkin had specifically given orders for the Death Star to take out Scarif and leave the fleet to Vader (that Tarkin overconfidence again), and the Devastator was busy still boarding and securing the Mon Calimari ship.

Why wasn't Tantine IV attacked?

See above.

Its also possible that they wanted to take the ship intact to make sure that the plans had been recovered, and not retransmitted or smuggled off some other way.

The Mon Calimari was disabled and could not escape. The Tantive IV still could.

And if not, why was speed of the essence?

See above.

Their may be a slight plot hole here, but a fairly easily explained one.

WATCH-MAN wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yup. Its a situation where speed is essential to prevent the escape of the plans, with a lot of soldiers in the way, and Vader is the ideal person for handling exactly that sort of situation.

If the door between the Calimari cruiser and Tantine IV were not stucked, the soldier with the plans could have been on the Tantine IV far earlier; the Tantine IV could have started earlier and Vader had not had even the slightest chance to prevent their escape.

Which kind of proves my point- even with luck on their side, Vader was the only one who could move fast enough.

Edit: Basically, Vader had a chance of fighting his way through the ship in time. No one else in that system would have.

If at every moment smaller vessels aboard the Mon Calimari cruiser could have escaped with the Death Star plan, it would have been more prudent for Vader to stay aboard of the Devastator and to surround the Mon Calimari cruise with fighters and position the Devastator so that an escaping vessel could be stopped - e.g. in the front of the hangar bay of the Mon Calimari cruiser.

To board the Mon Calimari cruiser with no real chance to stop an escaping vessel seems stupid to me.

If the door at the air lock between the Mon Calimari Cruiser and Tantine IV hadn't malfunctioned, there wouldn't have been the show down at the end of the movie. Tantine IV would have been away long before Vader entered the corridor leading to the air lock. Not one single Rebel soldier would have died there.

There simply was no way that Vader could have expected to be able to stop the Tantine IV or any other vessel aboard the Mon Calimari cruiser from escaping with the plans by boarding the Mon Calimari cruiser - especially not if there could have been more than only one FTL capable vessel. The plans could have been brought away with a FTL capable starfighter. They could have been copied to several data carrieres and brought away with several FTL capable vessels.

They knew somehow that only the Mon Cal cruiser received the plans...

I'd like to presume that Vader used his powers to jam the door.

Do we know when the Tantive IV docked with the Profundity? Perhaps it only did so after the bigger ship was disabled for the purpose of making a clean escape with the plans.

Galvatron wrote:Do we know when the Tantive IV docked with the Profundity? Perhaps it only did so after the bigger ship was disabled for the purpose of making a clean escape with the plans.

As far as we I know it was never stated or shown on-screen (besides the blindingly obvious of "sometime before Tantive IV escaped").

I don't agree at all with the whole "out of character" bit.

I fully imagine that Vader boarded the Profundity with stormtroopers and during the fighting, the stormtroopers got killed, So he just kept going alone. I mean he's a big black Sith lord with a goal to reach he's not gonna stand around and wait for more troopers to arrive, He's gonna slice up some Rebel scum and get his fucking price.

Just because we haven't seen Vader use his lightsaber on non-force users before doesn't mean it's out of character when he does.

Also in Episode III Anakin did use his lightsaber on Nute Gunray and the rest of the confederation leaders on Mustafar and I don't really see Vader as one that has mellowed since then.

Fair point. This was a Rebel capship, so Vader's boarders might've experienced more attrition than the paltry few guards in Leia's ship at the start of ANH.

Rogue One is like the utter depletion of the Rebellion. Or the depletion of one huge chunk of it. So while by ANH they won by the skin of their teeth and the Empire lost its big bad superweapon, I guess this shows why Rebel cells ended up on Hoth and why a lot of consolidation had to be redone before they got ready for Endor.

Anacronian wrote:I don't agree at all with the whole "out of character" bit.

I fully imagine that Vader boarded the Profundity with stormtroopers and during the fighting, the stormtroopers got killed, So he just kept going alone. I mean he's a big black Sith lord with a goal to reach he's not gonna stand around and wait for more troopers to arrive, He's gonna slice up some Rebel scum and get his fucking price.

Just because we haven't seen Vader use his lightsaber on non-force users before doesn't mean it's out of character when he does.

Also in Episode III Anakin did use his lightsaber on Nute Gunray and the rest of the confederation leaders on Mustafar and I don't really see Vader as one that has mellowed since then.

I wouldn't say its mellowing so much as below his pay grade.

I wouldn't say mellowed, but I would say that Rogue One/OT Vader is way cooler and more methodical than Mustafar Vader.

But I don't buy that he would think fighting non-Force users is beneath him. In fact, I think that combat is probably the closest thing to an environment where Darth Vader feels at home. He's been a soldier since he was a kid, and he's good at it. Warfare is something he understands and respects, unlike the politicking of men like Krennic.

Galvatron wrote:Do we know when the Tantive IV docked with the Profundity? Perhaps it only did so after the bigger ship was disabled for the purpose of making a clean escape with the plans.

Tantive IV docked with Profundity on Yavin, The original plan was to escort the Tantive IV (and Leia) to Tatooine and pick up Obi-Wan, But general Raddus choose to join the Battle at Scarif.

https://youtu.be/u7AuVg8OL3A?t=19m2s

I originally saw a question in regard to the scene as to whether it was for the Fanboys?

My initial response would be, "yes, but it is still cool".

In hindsight, I'm starting to think that besides the Fanboy wank elements it also works to show how much effort Vader is putting forth at that time to get the plans of the Death Star. Look at how much effort and "bad assedness" Anakin wielded during the prequel trilogy. Would he "take it easy" in such a serious situation now that he's Darth Vader?

Personally, I think the movies needed to show how scary Darth Vader is beyond the little bits we saw in ESB and RotJ. It might still be fanboy wank but it is cool and leads into "holy fuck! don't mess with this guy". Can you imagine seeing that bit from Rogue One and then seeing the part from A New Hope where people are giving Vader shit?

It maxes out the "are you fucking crazy?" aspect of questioning the Force in that scene.

I think the value of this scene largely lies in the fact that its showing Vader from the point of view of the ordinary Rebel soldier, rather than from someone who's more of a peer and/or has a personal connection to him.

"Darth Vader, only you could be so bold..." - Princess Leia Organa, Star Wars Episode IV, a New Hope.

Leia's first on screen lines to Vader. She was not surprised he attacked a diplomatic mission, or had boarded her ship.

To me, that kinda of says, that Vader is expected, and known for 'Jedi Level+' stunts of every kind.

Now, consider the three fights we see Vader in during the OT.

A New Hope: He's fighting his old master, who despite Vader's superior skill and power, beat him. Vader fighting reserved against him makes sense. He's gaging Kenobi, and trying to find an opening to end things. When he does, he kills him. He then turns to 'deal' with the fleeing rebels.

Empire Strikes Back: He's in the base with his troopers, having let the General Veers do the landing. Vader is after Luke and/or his friends. He doesn't want to spend who knows how long walking the trenches and fighting the rebels. Sure, he could cut his way into them no problem, but then he's surrounded, with AT-AT's hammering away. Best to avoid that. Only an IDIOT runs into an area that is being leveled by that kind of firepower.

Next, he's the one overseeing Han's torture.

Next, he's fighting his own son. He's not trying to kill him, he's trying to capture him. He slowly ramps things up against him, and probably to test him (Luke was impressing him, and most parents want to see their kids do well). BUT, the second Luke got a solid hit in, Vader switched and cut his hand off. With casual ease.

Return of the Jedi: Again, trying to turn his son, and probably under orders NOT TO KILL HIM unless needed. And Vader handles Luke easily, pulling 'next level shit', like the hurled-lightsaber to the catwalk routine. Admit it, first time you saw it, you were like "holy shit!".

He then goes right after Luke, into an area an ambush could easily be done.

Base on that, Vader was right in character in Rogue One. Shit needed to get done, and get got it done. Passing a physical copy of a file like they were? Easy and quick as hell. You toss it to the guy down the hall, then turn and hold off the enemy soldiers.

Fighting your way through a ship, with bottle necks and defensive positions, takes time for a soldier. Even a full born rush is going to eat up soldiers.

Except for Vader. he might not be an acrobat, but he's still insanely powerful. One on one, he probably just tosses soldiers aside. But against a group, 'saber and 'choke time.

While I don't think its hugely, if at all, out of character for Vader, I do disagree on at least one point- how easily you seem to think he was beating Luke at Endor.

Yes, the sabre throwing was impressive, but aside from that, they were both likely holding back through much of the fight, and Luke was holding Vader off, even gaining the advantage at times.

And once Luke did go all-out, he wiped the floor with Vader.

Luke was entirely Vader's peer at that point. Probably less so in Empire Strikes Back though, where Vader did manage to end it quite quickly once Luke managed to score a real hit on him.

Solauren wrote: Base on that, Vader was right in character in Rogue One. Shit needed to get done, and get got it done. Passing a physical copy of a file like they were? Easy and quick as hell. You toss it to the guy down the hall, then turn and hold off the enemy soldiers.

Fighting your way through a ship, with bottle necks and defensive positions, takes time for a soldier. Even a full born rush is going to eat up soldiers.

Except for Vader. he might not be an acrobat, but he's still insanely powerful. One on one, he probably just tosses soldiers aside. But against a group, 'saber and 'choke time.

have you guys seen HOW IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED?? if you want to take that to its logical conclusion then vader should have gotten the disk...



thruout this scene he's been force pulling, throwing and lifting dudes left and right and he's well within range of the guy with the disk. YET he doesn't use his force powers to snatch the disk or pull him away from the door.



again that scene was badass but other than that...

You might as well ask why telekinesis isn't constantly used in every combat situation.

Force powers are inconsistent and sometimes unreliable. Its just a reality of the franchise at this point.

The Romulan Republic wrote:You might as well ask why telekinesis isn't constantly used in every combat situation.

Force powers are inconsistent and sometimes unreliable. Its just a reality of the franchise at this point.

thats not true at all. In fact its the exact opposite.

Oh?

Then why does Force precognition miss huge things like Order 66 or, even more inexplicably, Vader turning on Palpatine? To take just two examples.

Clearly Vader was struggling with the auto-lock picking the nearest target there.

Joking aside have we seen TK that small and precise a target? Vader usually hurls big things at people. There was the freezer switch in ESB and the fruit in AotC but those we in relative calm conditions.

Off the top of my head, the Emperor uses TK to unlock Luke's binders on the second Death Star, I believe. That's got to be fairly fine manipulation, albeit not under combat conditions.