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'sex changes'?

By that I take it you're referring to my suggestion of switching sexual orientations through medical intervention? Or pre-screening during pregnancy?

Scientific and technological achievement at that level (intergalactic empire) would logically extend to the medical sciences as well. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they would have arrived at a deeper understanding of the role of biology in the development of sexual orientation. Opening up an avenue of elective choices.

Cowl wrote:'sex changes'?
It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they would have arrived at a deeper understanding of the role of biology in the development of sexual orientation. Opening up an avenue of elective choices.

I'll agree with that, as I am not a biologist and don't know enough to argue the point.

However, I still want to hear your explanation of why homosexuality doesn't make sense in a futuristic setting.

Debarring the incorporation of homosexuality in any cultural institutions, or the use of human sexuality in any Machiavellian manner, and provided that it's an elective procedure, I don't see why a person would want to go to the trouble of assuming the burden. It would involve a limited pool of prospective partners, anatomical incompatibility with sexual counterparts and the need for technological intervention for purposes of reproduction. To a lesser extent it could also cause psychological and/or physical complications.

But then, gender could also be essentially meaningless in the Starwars universe. And so too could reproductive technology be omni-pervasive in society. Anatomical incompatibilities could further be resolved through ad hoc mutations. And the limited pool of prospective partners could be addressed through slavery and/or humanoid droids.

Starwars could in fact be a hotbed for sexual depravity under the surface. Heh.

That's all speculation. Gender could be unimportant, and yet we don't get a sens eof that from the films, or at least I don't.

As for:

Debarring the incorporation of homosexuality in any cultural institutions, or the use of human sexuality in any Machiavellian manner, and provided that it's an elective procedure, I don't see why a person would want to go to the trouble of assuming the burden. It would involve a limited pool of prospective partners, anatomical incompatibility with sexual counterparts and the need for technological intervention for purposes of reproduction. To a lesser extent it could also cause psychological and/or physical complications.

You seem to be implying it's problematic to be homosexual. Indeed, you even call it a burden. Yes, if sex changes were quick and easy it would make life much simpler, I'm not denying that. But if you happen (or choose) to be homosexual, then that is what and who you are and I doubt that simpler re-arranging your anatomy and hormones will change that.

Cowl wrote:Why would there even be gay Jedi though? Don't Jedi allegedly 'forswear all emotional attachments'?

They're supposed to, but that didn't stop Anakin from knocking up Padme, now did it?

And would this even be an equal rights issue for this futuristic universe?

I doubt it will described as such in the game. I should think that in an advanced society it's just taken as a given.

Their medical technology must have advanced to the point where you'll be able to switch your sexual orientation with the flick of a switch.

You assume anyone would want to. In an advanced society they more than likely wouldn't care. I'm sure a society that can travel across a galaxy in hours or less would have come up with a cure for male pattern baldness, or at least a convincing toupee. The GFFA has neither, meaning it's not something they care about.

Advanced pre-screening at birth to allow for modification of any aberrant qualities of this nature.

I didn't know homosexuality was a disease.

Homosexuality doesn't really make sense in a futuristic setting, unless of course it would be part of some cultural institution.

Ah go fuck yourself.

I would really like to know why you think homosexuality would automatically be a burden, I'm not gay myself so I can't say this for certain but IIRC alot of the "burden" of being gay comes from the massive amount of homophobia western culture has atm, so it's sort of our fault(yes there's plently of progress done in accepting homosexual people but we're not there yet).

so to assume GFFA has these same problems is kind of arrogant IMHO, for all we know the question "are you gay?" is treated no differently then someone asking "do you like blondes". Sure it's important question if you're looking for a date but besides that it's not relevant to anything else you do.

Cowl wrote:Why would there even be gay Jedi though? Don't Jedi allegedly 'forswear all emotional attachments'?

This and this alone is a fair point - a gay Jedi and a straight Jedi would be pretty much identical, as long as they toe the company line. If the likes of Jolee Bindo have had any influence, though, there'd probably be some Jedi who take the healthier approach of not letting their emotions push them into doing anything foolish rather than suppressing them altogether.

And would this even be an equal rights issue for this futuristic universe? Their medical technology must have advanced to the point where you'll be able to switch your sexual orientation with the flick of a switch. Advanced pre-screening at birth to allow for modification of any aberrant qualities of this nature.

You're talking about using mind control to force your children to be attracted to people you approve of. That seems like a violation of medical ethics to me.

Homosexuality doesn't really make sense in a futuristic setting, unless of course it would be part of some cultural institution.

Bigotry against homosexuals doesn't really make sense in a futuristic setting, unless it's part of some self-sustaining cultural institution. A more mature civilisation has had longer to realise that it's just not that big a deal, and they tend to have bigger fish to fry. I've said the same thing about 40k: what kind of idiot would waste time going after men who like men or women who like women when there are whole species and religions that want to wipe you from the face of the galaxy?

Lord Revan wrote:I would really like to know why you think homosexuality would automatically be a burden,

I believe I did offer a number of reasons in my post.

Lord Revan wrote:I'm not gay myself so I can't say this for certain but IIRC alot of the "burden" of being gay comes from the massive amount of homophobia western culture has atm, so it's sort of our fault(yes there's plently of progress done in accepting homosexual people but we're not there yet).

Singling out Western culture, when it has assuredly done more to champion equal rights than any other cultural entity, really holds no significance. You'll find that homophobia is rampant across the globe.

so to assume GFFA has these same problems is kind of arrogant IMHO, for all we know the question "are you gay?" is treated no differently then someone asking "do you like blondes". Sure it's important question if you're looking for a date but besides that it's not relevant to anything else you do.

Would you be bald if you had the choice? Would you be short if you had the choice? It's a question best left answered by the respective parties themselves.

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Grumman wrote:You're talking about using mind control to force your children to be attracted to people you approve of. That seems like a violation of medical ethics to me.

Mind-control? This would be a case of parents selecting desirable attributes & traits for their offspring -- a case of eugenics. It opens up a whole other avenue of ethical consideration.

A more mature civilisation has had longer to realise that it's just not that big a deal, and they tend to have bigger fish to fry. I've said the same thing about 40k: what kind of idiot would waste time going after men who like men or women who like women when there are whole species and religions that want to wipe you from the face of the galaxy?

Bigotry? This discussion is about choice, not bigotry.

Cowl wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:I would really like to know why you think homosexuality would automatically be a burden,

I believe I did offer a number of reasons in my post.

According to your reasoning, wouldn't turning your kids bisexual be an even better choice?

Grumman wrote:You're talking about using mind control to force your children to be attracted to people you approve of. That seems like a violation of medical ethics to me.

Mind-control? This would be a case of parents selecting desirable attributes & traits for their offspring -- a case of eugenics. It opens up a whole other avenue of ethical consideration.

The "desirable attribute" is that they be compelled through a medical procedure to think the opposite sex is attractive, and think the same sex isn't attractive. Hence, mind control.

A more mature civilisation has had longer to realise that it's just not that big a deal, and they tend to have bigger fish to fry. I've said the same thing about 40k: what kind of idiot would waste time going after men who like men or women who like women when there are whole species and religions that want to wipe you from the face of the galaxy?

Bigotry? This discussion is about choice, not bigotry.

The discussion is about a choice that would only be taken because of bigotry - of the parent or of the society. "She'll never know the joy of penis-in-vagina sex" or "He'll never have children without adopting or finding a surrogate" are not concerns that justify deliberately rewriting someone's preferences without their permission.

Grumman wrote:According to your reasoning, wouldn't turning your kids bisexual be an even better choice?

It would be a better choice than the alternative, that of being strictly drawn to the same-gender.

The "desirable attribute" is that they be compelled through a medical procedure to think the opposite sex is attractive, and think the same sex isn't attractive. Hence, mind control.

It's a clumsy description. Harnessing sexual desire has been a cultural function since the dawn of time. Precluding a certain sexual instinct is a form of behavioral control, not 'mind control'.

The discussion is about a choice that would only be taken because of bigotry - of the parent or of the society. "She'll never know the joy of penis-in-vagina sex" or "He'll never have children without adopting or finding a surrogate" are not concerns that justify deliberately rewriting someone's preferences without their permission.

Those are not examples of bigotry.

Cowl wrote:

Grumman wrote:According to your reasoning, wouldn't turning your kids bisexual be an even better choice?

It would be a better choice than the alternative, that of being strictly drawn to the same-gender.

Again, why, and you ahve completely failed to answer this, is being "strictly drawn to the same gender" a problem? Yuo say homophobia is rampant across the globe. Does that include youperchance?

If you're going to accuse someone, at least put in the effort to write between the lines.

Oh no, I'd much rather say it plainly.

Anyway, how about you actually answer the questions?

Considering that neither the ancient greek or the romans had any problems with homosexuality per say and their technology was inferior to ours let alone anything SW or even ST has, so why would gay people be under such a major "burden" in GFFA that you'd have use gene manipulation to get rid of them?

EDIT:we also know of at least 1 possible gay (well lesbian is you want to be technical) character pre-SWTOR (Juhani in KOTOR is female only romance option (and dispite the name is female)).

Grumman wrote:

Cowl wrote:Why would there even be gay Jedi though? Don't Jedi allegedly 'forswear all emotional attachments'?

This and this alone is a fair point

But it's not. Sexuality isn't just an emotional attraction it's also a physical one. Besides you don't need to form emotional connections to have sex and IIRC in one of the novels where Yoda is a main character he explicitly mentions finding young Padawans experimenting with one another as if it's perfectly natural.

Just curious, what book was this?

Also, as a homosexual myself, I find that it would be rather odd for a culture much more advanced than ours technologically and a bit different than us culturally discriminated against homosexuals. They might have never had a cause for disliking of homosexuals, or outgrown it centuries if not millenniums ago. By the point of KOTOR or the Prequels/OT, homosexuality would probably not be a cultural issue, and dislike Karen Traviss or not, we have canon proof of a gay couple in Star Wars because of her.

EDIT:Cleaned up the paragraph a bit.

FaxModem1 wrote:Just curious, what book was this?

Also, as a homosexual myself, I find that it would be rather odd for a culture much more advanced than ours technologically and a bit different than us culturally discriminated against homosexuals. They might have never had a cause for disliking of homosexuals, or outgrown it centuries if not millenniums ago. By the point of KOTOR or the Prequels/OT, homosexuality would probably not be a cultural issue, and dislike Karen Traviss or not, we have canon proof of a gay couple in Star Wars because of her.

btw FaxModem seeing as you're gay yourself maybe you can answer what this major (large enough to warrant gene manipulation) "burden" is suppose to be?

tbh I think it's our "friend" is just so homophobic (even if he's unaware of it himself) that he's unable to think of a culture that wouldn't inhertly be discriminating against homosexuals

also I wonder if there's any left-handed people in SW movies, as it's caused by a minor (read:harmless) genenic mutation, humans are right handed by default, but since left handedness isn't life treatning in and of itself, nothing is done about it and since IIRC argument for homosexuality being genetic (rather learned) is saying it's a similar minor harmless in and off itself mutation, so if there's left-handed people in the movies it shows the Galactic Republic (or the Galactic Empire) does not fix genenic mutations unless they're life treatning

The only 'burdens' homosexuality would have would be either:

A. cultural discrimination. Something that can only happen if the culture discriminates, something that we see no proof of in the SW galaxy. Sure, they discriminate against alien races, but humans of different colors and women don't seem to have as much trouble, if at all.)

B. Inability to have children without outside intervention. Not all gay people want children, those who do have other methods available, including that weird cloning route that Jango took.

C. You belong to a race that is dying out and need to ensure your species survival through procreation. There's harvesting of both eggs and sperm, so genetic diversity can be ensured, without the intimate relations. Or in case of other circumstances, See B.

That's honestly all I can think of, and the Star Wars galaxy makes readily apparent that both of those would not be problems for homosexuals. if a Jedi were to be gay, well, they're in the Jedi Order, celibacy applies, whether straight or not, so one's orientation wouldn't seem to matter. Honestly, that's a problem that the Jedi Order has anyway, as in my opinion, they're depriving their followers of perspective and genuine compassion and love with their fellow beings, but that's getting off topic.

There is genetic engineering in the Star Wars universe, but it doesn't seem to happen except in special cases, like clone jobs on Kamino. So homosexuality has to happen in the Star Wars universe, and we have canon proof that it does, with Juhani and the Mandalorian couple. This means that Cowl is incorrect on people there wanting to breed it out of the galaxy, unless he wants to make some sort of justification on Juhani's family being too poor to afford genetic work done since her family were slaves or something like that.

Hell, maybe Cowl is right, and it's as simple as flipping a switch, or getting your hair color dyed, and we could have a Star Wars book where Luke goes incognito and has his entire genetic makeup redone and he comes to some planet craving all the hot guys there.

Oh, the two confirmed gay Mandos are Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur, just so everyone can know I'm not making things up. They're even married to each other, which proves that marriage between two human males is allowed in the Star Wars galaxy.

Their wookiepedia pages:
Goran:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin

Medrit:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Medrit_Vasur

FaxModem1 wrote:There is genetic engineering in the Star Wars universe, but it doesn't seem to happen except in special cases, like clone jobs on Kamino. So homosexuality has to happen in the Star Wars universe, and we have canon proof that it does, with Juhani and the Mandalorian couple. This means that Cowl is incorrect on people there wanting to breed it out of the galaxy, unless he wants to make some sort of justification on Juhani's family being too poor to afford genetic work done since her family were slaves or something like that.

Hell, maybe Cowl is right, and it's as simple as flipping a switch, or getting your hair color dyed, and we could have a Star Wars book where Luke goes incognito and has his entire genetic makeup redone and he comes to some planet craving all the hot guys there.

if the gene modding is as simple as Cowl claims there's little evidence for it (I can't remember any off hand), but I can remember plenty of incídents where could have been usefull but wasn't used.

this suggest that

a)the characters were either too stupid or were unable to use them for some reason(s) not known to us

b)gene modding isn't as easy as flipping a switch.

I stand corrected. So it's probably a before birth thing, as we do have confirmation that the Kamino cloners altered the clone troopers to be more obedient and changed their lifespan. So if someone REALLY wanted to ensure their kids were heterosexual, I guess they could take them to Kamino and get it done before the mother's due date.

Just a minor point, didn't George Lucas state that Jedi are not in fact required to be celibate, just that they are to avoid the emotional attachments and possessiveness of relationships? A quick google shows references to this statement, but I can't find a direct link before I leave for work.

I'd argue the reverse - that in a future setting the only thing that "makes sense" is different levels of bisexuality.

FaxModem1 wrote:Just curious, what book was this?

Dark Rendezvous, IIRC.

Lord Revan wrote:also I wonder if there's any left-handed people in SW movies, as it's caused by a minor (read:harmless) genenic mutation, humans are right handed by default, but since left handedness isn't life treatning in and of itself, nothing is done about it and since IIRC argument for homosexuality being genetic (rather learned) is saying it's a similar minor harmless in and off itself mutation, so if there's left-handed people in the movies it shows the Galactic Republic (or the Galactic Empire) does not fix genenic mutations unless they're life treatning

Lefty-Trooper:


Also further proof that Stormtroopers are not all identical clones.

There are actually quite a few left-handed Stormtroopers throughout the films.

Fun fact: While the majority of the troops are right-handed, ALL OF THEM wear their holsters in a left-handed fashion. In ANH, the holster is worn on the left, with the grip facing backwards, to be drawn left-handed. In ESB, the holster is worn on the right, with the grip pointing out forwards- also left-handed. In RotJ the holsters are all over the shop (and sometimes missing altogether).

Does the Empire encourage left-handedness???