FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2018-03-24 12:16pm
Okay, TRR, it's been two weeks, I'd like your refutations on my post concerning Holdo.
My sincere apologies for the delayed reply reg. Holdo (although some of this stuff ended up being covered in other posts, and is therefore now redundant).
Here's my response to what I believe was your last post in this exchange. Just to let you know though: it is my intention to take a break from this board for a while (for reasons entirely unrelated to this discussion). I'll do my best to answer your points here, but if there are any points which this post does not satisfactorily answer, then I hope you will excuse me for withdrawing.
FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2018-03-05 03:47amI mean their lack of military professionalism, which is fitting in a volunteer militia, but militias also work by bringing people you know personally in, regardless of capability if they bring something else to the table, such as ships, guns, troops, etc.
We don't get Holdo as either a brilliant tactician, or someone who leads by example, so we're left with aristocratic dilettante.
Addressed elsewhere, but this is a bit of an assumption, I think (unless its backed up in EU materials). We don't get anything on Holdo's background in the film, beyond her having been at some prior battle which impressed Poe, and her being friends with Leia.
I think the film mean to portray her as a capable tactician. We can argue about weather it succeeds in that (but then, tactics in SF films often seem a bit screwy). But her tactics are generally effective (or would have been in all probability without bad luck and Poe running his own op on the side). I can at least see where people are coming from on her having poor interpersonal skills, but I don't see much of an argument for "bad tactician" unless one literally takes Poe's rant about her at face value.
As others have noted in the thread, Poe's actions took out a First Order dreadnought for the cost of a wing of bombers. Considering how poor the ranges on Star Wars ships are thanks to this film, it's plausible that the dreadnought had better range with it's weaponry, and saved the Resistance's flotilla.
Perhaps,
with the benefit of hindsight that Poe did not have at the time.
But I don't think anyone's questioning the lopsided cost-to-benefit ratio of trading a bomber wing for a dreadnought,
in absolute terms. The point is that the engagement never should have happened in the first place. An insurgency/guerilla force is supposed to avoid stand-up fights with enemy capital ships unless they truly have no other choice.
Had the Resistance and First Order been fighting a conventional war with near-equal forces, Poe's choice would in all likelihood have been the tactically and strategically correct one. But they were fighting a different kind of war, and one Leia has immense experience in fighting and leading at this point. So I'm inclined to trust her call here over Poe's.
Though I will also acknowledge that Leia's judgement in the film is likely clouded by the fact that she is clearly having difficulty dealing with the personal losses she has suffered.
Or not, maybe it would have made no difference in the 18 hour slow crawl through empty space. Or, just like Holdo being unable to think about long term assets while in a ship, Poe is too dumb to think about long term survival of their assets, same way that Holdo was.
I don't think either of them is unable to understand the need for long term survival of their assets, based on what we see on-screen. But I do think that Poe is too driven by his emotions, and was using the wrong kinds of tactics for the kind of war they were fighting. Moreover, it wasn't his call to make.
To claim that Holdo is "unable to think about long term assets while in a ship", however, is in my opinion directly contradicted by on-screen evidence. She made a strategic decision to sacrifice some ships to preserve the
personnel aboard them. You can agree or disagree with that call, but its pretty much the opposite of throwing away assets.
The worst you can argue about Holdo's goals in terms of resources-preservation is that she wasn't cold-blooded enough to make the cold hard call to sacrifice men to preserve ships (and even then, I question weather the ships could realistically have been saved).
Hence why in my version, Rose and Finn go to Maz and she's one of their stops.
That might well have worked better, but its something of an aside to the debate over Holdo's performance as admiral.
The Raddus's bridge crew, those who would be able to see the whole board, joined in the mutiny. Either Holdo wasn't briefing the bridge on what they were supposed to be doing besides kissing their butts goodbye, I mean, 'having hope', or they viewed her plan as so suicidal that they joined in.
Or, having served with Poe longer, they felt more personal loyalty towards him. Or they felt (rightly or wrongly) that his plan was more likely to succeed (which, I repeat, was not their call to make).
You can certainly interpret the bridge crew's actions in that light, but I feel that this is taking the interpretation that most negatively reflects on Holdo out of multiple possible interpretations, and then assuming it is the correct one.
That, and while we don't have a scene of the entire ship's crew running to the escape pods, we can infer from Rose's duties and comments that it was a sizable enough problem for them to put non-security people guarding the escape pods.
As to this, the desertions Rose referred to occurred either before or almost immediately after Holdo took command given the time frame, and thus cannot fairly be attributed to her poor leadership. I believe this point was covered previously.
Also, again, we don't know how many people ultimately tried to desert as a percentage of the total force, or for that matter weather Rose was stationed to stop deserters or took that duty upon herself. There is simply insufficient data.
Will you address those points?
Even if she tells them a false plan, it would give her crews something to do and focus on that rather than panicking and either mutinying, or abandoning ship.
A false plan is indeed a good idea, if only to throw off any possible spies. But considering that finding out part of her
actual plan is what prompted Flyboy McJackass to mutiny, I'm not sure it would have done much good.
He objected because she came off, both in-universe and out, as way over her head and unwilling to entertain other options. I'm reasonably sure Poe wouldn't have mutinied if she gave him something to do that wasn't just tweedle our thumbs until we die. Giving people busywork that might even pay off later is a common tactic in a crisis. Telling them to shut up and act as if you're doing something will cause a crisis, as we see in a film.
We don't see how Holdo interacts with the rest of the crew. We see only how she interacts with Poe, who she had no reason to humor or regard as anything but a trouble-maker undermining her authority in a crisis.
Or, you know, it would have given him something to do. It's hard to plan a mutiny when you're busy keeping morale up, finding allies, repairing systems, plotting places to resupply, etc. As I said below, it's basic crisis management, in the event of a battle, natural disaster, etc, you keep people busy, especially when they're panicking. That Holdo doesn't do this presents her as more of a paperpusher who has never had to lead troops before.
Here's a tip for you. If someone is panicking in an emergency, you're in the leadership position, and because they don't think you have a plan, they are going to react as if you don't have a plan. You should instead make them feel valuable, and give them a job that they can handle, so that they are both A. Out of the way, and B. Being productive.
This is why, in the military, in Crisis situations, if the head leadership person on site is unable to take command, the person next in line does so. In fact, if people in command know they aren't fit for duty, they're supposed to step aside. Holdo came off as not having a plan, so Poe relieved her of duty, as he had a plan.
His plan was very flawed and blew up in his face, but he(and the bridge crew) knew he had one, and thought she didn't. The fact that she didn't correct anyone on this is why she was facing her own crew members pointing guns at her.
If Poe still flies off the handle because he's an idiot, then he gets tazed like Finn did, as everyone else will listen.[/quote]
You're still making an assumption about the motives of the bridge crew.
The truth is, we don't really know a lot about how Holdo interacted with the rest of the crew, because we see things mainly from Poe's point of view (presumably to set up the plot twist). A systematic failure to address moral problems
would reflect poorly on her as a commander (though it would obviously not prove that she is incompetent in all other aspects of warfare, such as tactics or logistics). But it is not fair to judge her too harshly for not taking time to pacify one malcontent in the middle of a crisis, when far more pressing concerns would have been weighing on her (like the imminent lack of fuel, prepping the transports, repairing damage to critical systems, evacuating wounded personnel, etc.).
Remember that less than a day is supposed to elapse between Holdo assuming command in the middle of an absolutely nightmarish and chaotic situation, in which the entire chain of command has been effectively decapitated, and Poe's mutiny.
I question how well
any commander could handle such a situation. That anyone survived is bordering on miraculous, and only due even then to the First Order pissing away their overwhelming advantage through a complete lack of tactical innovation.
Her plan was stupid, and relied on the First Order not doing a pincer tactic, their stealth transports actually working, their stealth tech being up to snuff against the better equipped First Order sensors, the First Order wondering why there aren't any bodies as they sweep the Raddus debris, or not sweeping the debris at all, not noticing the settlement on the planet, the engine trail to the planet, not sweeping the planet at all, Leia's big broadcasting ring, etc.
If the First Order had competently executed a pincer tactic, the fleet would have died. End of story. This is not a reflection of Holdo's ability. It is simply the reality of her being hopelessly outmatched.
At
best, she might have saved the escorts if she ordered the fleet to scatter, and even that is dubious. The command ship and anything on it or in its vicinity would have been destroyed. If the FO had brought interdictors, even that would not have been an option.
Obviously, the plan presumes that their stealth tech. is up to snuff. On-screen evidence suggests that that is the case.
Sweeping the planet would only have been an issue if they had reason to believe that the fleet had escaped. If they blew up the Raddus without detecting any ships leaving it, then they'd have no reason to believe that. I doubt, incidentally, that blown up starships tend to leave a lot of bodies. Not much survived close proximity to a reactor breach.
Yes, there are ways that the plan could have failed (and indeed did fail). In fact, you've missed what in my opinion is the biggest one- Kylo or Snoke detecting the ruse through the Force. But that is true of any alternative as well. There is no plan that is sure to succeed, especially when facing such monumental odds.
They were without Starfighter cover for 18 hours, they could apparently risk it. Though again, that's if the First Order doesn't just trap them in a pincer and kills them all.
Um, no?
The escorts presumably carry anti-starfighter guns. The Raddus's
starfighter compliment was destroyed. But that's my point- in the absence of starfighters, their only cover against starfighter attack was the point defense guns, including those on the escorts. Apologies if I was unclear on this point.
In any case, sacrificing (or withdrawing) the escorts would strip the Raddus of that cover.
Once the last escort went up, admittedly, the FO probably should have swarmed the Raddus with fighters. Its almost baffling why they didn't. Shear complacent overconfidence, I guess (since they believed that they could track the Raddus anywhere and that it would eventually be run down, they exerted no especial effort to destroy it faster or more efficiently).
Holdo's plan relies on being able to survive without fighters for about a day, so this point is moot.
See above.
See above.
Note that this is Poe's plan in principle, not in practice. Instead of picking up one hacker, based off the rumors of a bartender, they go to a New Republic base or whatever, and grab hackers in addition to a fleet.
A "bartender" who has proven to be a valuable source of information in the past, and was known to Han (and presumably Leia?).
As to going to the NR- the NR is pretty much dead already. Is that pathetic? Yes. Is that the situation the Resistance has to deal with? Also yes. And given how fast the NR folded, it probably has a lot of First Order sympathizers, so I question the wisdom of going to it for help unless you know the people in question
very well.
That said, it
is a fairly good alternative plan you've got here, as I said before, but my prior criticisms reg. sending another ship to bring reinforcements stand (loss of anti-fighter cover, possible lack of time, and that I'm not sure weather the point of the Crait distress call was to call in reinforcements to help in a pitched battle with the FO at Crait, so much as it was to provoke a larger uprising across the galaxy).
Note that Poe is an idiot, Holdo is an idiot, Hux is an idiot, Finn and Rose are idiots etc. It's what TVTropes calls an Idiot Plot.
I wouldn't say Finn and Rose are idiots, so much as out of their depth. Finn is an infantry grunt by training, Rose a mechanic. Neither of them has any business playing intelligence operative- another point against Poe's plan.
Holdo- possibly somewhat lacking in the morale/interpersonal skills department (too little evidence to say definitively), but otherwise reasonably capable.
Poe- competent within a narrow field, but too hot-headed for larger responsibilities.
Hux- Yeah, he's an idiot. Basically no redeeming qualities there.
And I've pointed out why those are minor concerns, or things that are miniscule compared to 'Hopefully someone hears us and gives a damn, otherwise we're eating Ackbar's corpse with dipping sauce first.'
Again, idiot plot here, and internally inconsistent.
I hope everyone likes Calamari with crystal dog because Holdo AND Poe didn't send one of their ships to a gas station to fill up and bring extra back for the other two ships. Or extra ships.
Stripping the escorts from your fleet when you have no starfighters to protect against a possible bombing run is
not a trivial concern, in my opinion.
Regarding only going straight to planet and nothing else:
Again, extra Ackbar servings for everybody, because they gave up on refueling, finding allies, going to a well defended New Republic system, etc, on the off chance that they get picked up before their broadcast is detected and they get killed for revealing their location, or before they run out of food.
Regarding running somewhere safer:
Hence the refuel, or go to a well defended system options. If those aren't feasible, hiding in a place where you can keep your medical frigate in case of medical emergency or not gamble everything on the First Order being idiots.
I'll reiterate- if the First Order had been written for maximum competency, the Resistance would have died, regardless of weather it was Holdo, Leia, Ackbar, Thrawn, or Captain Kirk in command. That the fleet would have died if the FO was more competent is not evidence of Holdo's
incompetence- its simply a consequence of the disparity in forces available, and the complete clusterfuck that Holdo inherited when she assumed command.
For that matter, a competent FO fleet could have ended that battle before Holdo even had a chance to take command.
The rest of these points are basically addressed above- I'll acknowledge that this alternative plan has some merits, but it also has some very serious drawbacks. Though these are not really discussed in the film (and frankly, it would have probably bogged the film down if they had been).
Regarding New Republic idiocy:
Okay. I am NOT advocating genocide. Okay?
Yeah, I know.
I just get triggered by internet tough guy type stuff.
What I'm saying is that Mon Mothma's
disarmament was asking for trouble, and is akin to South Korea completely disarming it's military after the Korean war if they had no allies whatsoever, and everyone going along with it. Anyone who thinks that utterly disarming next to an aggressive military neighbor to the point that a terrorist group can threaten you militarily shows that you don't care about your people's survival, and are asking for death. And is so hard to believe that suspensions of disbelief gets broken, and one has to ask if the people behind the films are trying to imply that the people siding with freedom are wrong, because in such a situation, they'll be horribly killed.
Is it stupid? Yes.
Is it unbelievable? I don't know. People can do some very strange things under the right (or wrong) pressures. I expect that this was a cultural backlash/overreaction to the militarism of the Galactic Empire, which they had just escaped.
Its easy as a detached viewer to say "This is stupid". But if you lived through the Clone Wars and twenty-thirty years of militaristic galactic tyranny and civil war? It might seem less certain.
That's what the sequel trilogy seems to be suggesting, that or that it's all pointless, as it's all controlled by the rich people who gamble away the money while the poor plebes fight and die.
That view is addressed in the film, of course, through the character of DJ, who seems to have such a view.
The point of Luke's sacrifice and the Resistance's escape at the end is to show that this view is in fact not correct, in my opinion. Weather you find that convincing or not is going to depend on one's own disposition, and I'm not sure its something that can be objectively proven or disproven.
Regarding Holdo's plan to wait it out:
See above on how that's riding on a lot to go right, and dooms them all if even one thing goes wrong., Like for example, being told that they're on their own, which happened in the movie, and the First Order having a few brain cells to sweep the area and look for survivors on the nearest habitable planet.
Why would they sweep the planet for survivors if their sensors recorded every ship blown up long before they reached the planet, and they detected no escape craft launching?
Even if no one comes to their aid, they probably have enough supplies to lie low for a while, arrange for a smuggler friend like Maz to evacuate them, etc.
The big risk is detection by Kylo or Snoke, but that's true of literally any attempt at deception or escape, given the nature of the Force. Whenever you try to engage Force users, you are to some extent rolling the dice on weather their precog will work today.
See above on how many mistakes Hux's flotilla would have to make in order for this to work. If Poe hadn't killed the only competent officer aboard the dreadnought at the beginning, maybe her plan would have gone up in smoke due to him executing a pincer, or searching the planet, just to be safe. It rides on her enemy making a lot of mistakes.
And again, if the FO had been competent, it wouldn't have mattered who was in command of the Resistance or how good they were- they'd have been fucked.
If even an average commander had lead that attack, it wouldn't have mattered if the FO was lead by a hybrid of Revan and Thrawn. The disparity in resources is just that great.
I hope I have properly addressed them now, and show you why they needed better planning.
Tl:Dr: Holdo's entire plan requires that the enemy fleet is run by absolute morons, and that other people in the Galaxy care about them enough to do something. Otherwise, they are either blown up, or starve to death.
Well, I actually do agree with you that Holdo's plan relies on the enemy being morons, and the rest of the galaxy giving a damn (then again, so does Leia's, and nobody's arguing her competency here).
I just think that would have been the case given the situation regardless of who was in command.
Like I said, I was spitballing, and it doesn't rely on an idiot plot to work. Yes, most of the sequel trilogy's problems seem to rest on JJ Abrams and his lack of competent world building, but this wouldn't show just how bad those problems are and compound them, as TLJ did.
Eh. There's a lot of ways you could have written the ST. Some are better, some are worse. TLJ is
in this respect a reasonable extrapolation from TFA.
Your mileage may vary, as it made me think Holdo was being set up as a surprise villain who was profiting off the war due to her aristocratic look and demeanor towards working class people like Poe. And Star Wars was headed in a class warfare direction.
That... honestly never occurred to me.
If that was intended, its actually quite brilliant as a bit of misdirection, because it ties the whole thing in with Rose and Finn's adventure thematically. Although I don't recall anything about Holdo in the film that particularly screams "aristocrat", unless you means simply wearing a dress and being friends with a princess.
It would be hard to do class warfare in Star Wars though, with the whole Leia being a princess thing.
That may be why I dislike Holdo, she thematically comes across as a WWI officer, not caring about her troops' lives, more concerned with how pretty she looks,like while also showing similarly dressed people gambling away on casino world. Until at the last moment we find that it's a badly executed psych out, that she was a hero after all.
Yeah, if that's where you thought the character was going, I can see why you'd dislike her. Doesn't mean I agree, but I get it, sort of.
If I were to summarize my view of Holdo vs. Poe at this point, it would probably be along these lines:
Holdo is an experienced commander with a record of success, who is making an effort to preserve her personnel at the cost of her ships. The wisdom of that tactic can be debated, but it is likely that she was acting in accordance with Leia's wishes (though it is also possible that Leia's judgment was impaired by her recent personal losses, rending her excessively unwilling to risk personnel). Her ability to deal with the situation was likely also hampered greatly by the general chaos, existing morale problems, and lack of resources. However, this would have been true to some extent for any commander in her place.
Poe is reacting on emotion, primarily fear. Holdo admittedly does little to address his fears, but I find it difficult to condemn her, given that Poe is a recently-disgraced and demoted subordinate, in a situation where there is genuine reason (even if never stated in the film) to believe that the fleet has been infiltrated, and that he almost immediately reacts to Holdo with disrespect and hostility and never really gives her the benefit of the doubt.
As to the argument that Poe's mutiny and the desertions reveal a general dissatisfaction with Holdo's leadership, I think that there is simply insufficient evidence. Few of the crew are shown taking an active part on either side of the mutiny, and the discussion of desertions happens too soon after Holdo takes command to confidently attribute it to her leadership.
I do think that in some ways, Poe and Holdo are mirrors of each other. Both are friends/proteges of Leia, but come at the issue from different directions. Poe is recklessly, driven by emotion, and too quick to engage. Holdo is perhaps too hesitant, too inflexible. Both are antagonistic towards the other. However, given that Holdo was the higher-ranked officer and Poe her subordinate, that she had far more to deal with than Poe at the time, that Poe had just gotten himself demoted, and that Holdo was likely acting in accordance with Leia's wishes, I tend to give greater blame to Poe.
The film does give the impression that Holdo is incompetent or a traitor- not because this is actually supported by the evidence or the intent of the film, but because we are initially shown things from Poe's point of view, the audience has already learned to identify with him, and it plays on genre conventions/expectations. This sets up the ultimate reversal, but it is possible that the film could have done a more effective job of conveying that Poe was in error. That's the risk with a plot-twist like that- the set-up can end up overshadowing the ultimate revelation that the filmmakers intended.
As to the question of sexism: I think that, undoubtably, some of those attacking Holdo (I'm talking about the overall response to the character, not specifically the debate on this forum) are driven, consciously or unconsciously, by gender bias. I think some people will tend to be more critical of a female authority figure (this is hardly a secret, or a controversial claim), especially perhaps if she appears overtly "feminine", as Holdo does. Some people will tend to identify with the idea of a male hero being held back by a powerful woman. I don't think the film helps matters either, since some of the dialog between Poe and Holdo can come off as Holdo and Poe's mutual animosity being due to the other's gender (Poe saying he's disappointed almost the moment he catches sight of her, Holdo dismissing him as an arrogant flyboy or some such).
But I also think that there are a number of other factors at play, including OT fanboyism (including resentment over her replacing Ackbar), general hostility to the film, and people being so convinced by the set-up that they found the subsequent twist unconvincing.