AndroAsc wrote:I am going to nitpick further on terminology. They used the term 'awakening' which has never been used before! It is a disturbance in the force you mother fucking fake Jedi and sith.
Similarly, the falcon is a piece of junk, not garbage. If you are trying to make a reference, get it right!! Is the job requirement in this star wars movie to have not watched star wars in your life?
Rey in this movie is quite literally undergoing an awakening to her force abilities, meaning the term is spot on.
Also, why does it need to be word for word in your opinion to be a reference? You understood even without it being exactly the same, what it was alluding to. I don't see the issue.
Also the words are synonyms of each other depending on how you use it (Referring to the worn out looking falcon), so I see your complaint as being even more pointless.
AndroAsc wrote:I am going to nitpick further on terminology. They used the term 'awakening' which has never been used before! It is a disturbance in the force you mother fucking fake Jedi and sith.
Similarly, the falcon is a piece of junk, not garbage. If you are trying to make a reference, get it right!! Is the job requirement in this star wars movie to have not watched star wars in your life?
Rey in this movie is quite literally undergoing an awakening to her force abilities, meaning the term is spot on.
Also, why does it need to be word for word in your opinion to be a reference? You understood even without it being exactly the same, what it was alluding to. I don't see the issue.
Also the words are synonyms of each other depending on how you use it (Referring to the worn out looking falcon), so I see your complaint as being even more pointless.
We do not need SW apologist neophytes here on this board. Sure, awakening might be an appropriate term. Anakin had his awakening, so did Luke. Nobody in the fucking SW verse uses "awakening". It is a DISTURBANCE in the force.
A reference needs to be word for word because it is a fucking reference. Interchanging junk for garbage just shows that the people who wrote this do not know what Star Wars is. In fact, it would have been better to insert "What a piece of junk" comment from either Finn or Rey in homage to Luke's original comment. You do not replace words and call it a reference. It is the same thing when Han Solo says he "has a bad feeling about this" (thank god they got that right). Should we replace Han's line to "I have a bad vibe about this"?
AndroAsc wrote:I am going to nitpick further on terminology. They used the term 'awakening' which has never been used before! It is a disturbance in the force you mother fucking fake Jedi and sith.
They are not Sith. The Sith order died when the last Apprentice killed the last Master then died from his injuries.
That remains to be determined. If the Sith are gone, who is the mysterious Supreme Leader Snoakes? Just a Dark Jedi? If he was just a Dark Jedi then he wouldn't be much of an issue.
I still think Snoakes being a cloned/resurrected Palpatine theory is the best one I've seen so far. Snoakes was just invented out of thin air, and we are led to believe that he is pretty "experienced" at this Jedi/Force/Sith thing. How can that be when the Sith rule of 2 ended with the death of Palpatine and Vader?
AndroAsc wrote:
That remains to be determined. If the Sith are gone, who is the mysterious Supreme Leader Snoakes? Just a Dark Jedi? If he was just a Dark Jedi then he wouldn't be much of an issue.
I still think Snoakes being a cloned/resurrected Palpatine theory is the best one I've seen so far. Snoakes was just invented out of thin air, and we are led to believe that he is pretty "experienced" at this Jedi/Force/Sith thing. How can that be when the Sith rule of 2 ended with the death of Palpatine and Vader?
Your idea requires functional evidence. A more ideal theory is he's read a book on the Sith. That's about it.
AndroAsc wrote:I am going to nitpick further on terminology. They used the term 'awakening' which has never been used before! It is a disturbance in the force you mother fucking fake Jedi and sith.
They are not Sith. The Sith order died when the last Apprentice killed the last Master then died from his injuries.
That remains to be determined. If the Sith are gone, who is the mysterious Supreme Leader Snoakes? Just a Dark Jedi? If he was just a Dark Jedi then he wouldn't be much of an issue.
Some other darkside tradition. Maybe one that was hiding, first from the jedi (just like the sith before ep1), then from the sith.
I still think Snoakes being a cloned/resurrected Palpatine theory is the best one I've seen so far. Snoakes was just invented out of thin air, and we are led to believe that he is pretty "experienced" at this Jedi/Force/Sith thing. How can that be when the Sith rule of 2 ended with the death of Palpatine and Vader?
Cloning/resurrection doesn't explain the species change.
Looks like in the original script there was a space battle with capital ships (or least some superweapons), and Kylo Ren did not get his ass owned by Rey, and the fight stalemated due to the ground breaking up.
Hey, if you guys got a better theory to explain snoakes go ahead. I never said the clone theory made sense, it's just the best one I've read so far.
The movie set this guy up as some old, powerful and experienced villian with force powers. Can anyone explain how that can be possible when we knew the only old, powerful and experienced force wielding bad guys was Palpatine (and Vader to some extent), and Palpatine took great lengths to ensure that he is at the top. Yes, there are Dark Jedi acolytes serving the Emperor, but none of the them approached Vader's level of power.
So who and where did snoakes come from? You don't just "read a book" and suddenly become the big force wielding villian threatening the galaxy. It doesn't make sense for him to be one of Palaptine minions, as none of them would have sufficient power/knowledge.
How, exactly, do we know the Supreme Leader (and seriously, whose idea was that?) has Force powers to begin with? All we actually know about him is...he likes to be represented by a bigass ugly hologram, and he somehow managed to train Kylo Ren (and not all that well if Ren's Performance against Finn and Rey is anything to go by).
Last edited by Batman on 2015-12-19 08:27pm, edited 2 times in total.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
The Sith hid themselves from the Jeda for centuries/thousands of years (I can't recall which) until they were ready to strike at the Jedi. They grew strong while they were hiding.
A simple explanation is that Snoak is from some other group of darksiders who were also hiding while growing strong. First hiding from the Jedi. Then hiding from the Sith. Then, when the Sith were gone and Luke was the only Jedi, emerging to try and prevent Luke forming a new Jedi order.
Or maybe Snoak is one of Palpatine's non-force sensitive minions who can into possession of whatever Sith documentation Palpatine left behind.
Batman wrote:How, exactly, do we know the Supreme Leader (and seriously, whose idea was that?) has Force powers to begin with? All we actually know about him is...he likes to be represented by a bigass ugly hologram, and he somehow managed to Train Kylo Ren (and not all that well if Ren's Performance against Flynn and Rey is anything to go by).
A lot is implied from the movie, and the supporting information on wookiepedia backs it up. Also, Snoakes commented that Kylo Ren needs to complete his training (presumably by Snoakes teaching), so yes it is strongly implied he is a powerful and experienced force wielding dark sider.
Um not it's not. At least from the movie alone the guy either has a serious ego problem or is really damned tall and that's it, and him training Ren doesn't require him to have Force powers himself, he just needs the instruction manual (and that presupposes he was talking about Force training at all, when it could have been about 'how to get rid of that last spark of humanity left in you').
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
AndroAsc wrote:
A lot is implied from the movie, and the supporting information on wookiepedia backs it up. Also, Snoakes commented that Kylo Ren needs to complete his training (presumably by Snoakes teaching), so yes it is strongly implied he is a powerful and experienced force wielding dark sider.
I see we've avoided using the word 'Sith' now. So where did Snoak use the Force? As opposed to being the one in command of at least one using the Force?
We don't have any precedence of a non force user training a force user, so unless someone shows me evidence to the contrary, I think it's pretty obvious Snoakes is a force user.
And I drop the Sith term, cause it's possible Snoakes is another dark side faction, but that really pisses on the original theme of Jedi vs Sith, and it's really too much Yuvhan Vong (oh another bad guy from another place that just waited for the right time to enter the conflict). Things need to be internally consistent, and too much "new faction/stuff" is just an indicator of piss poor writing. Star Wars has always been about the Jedi vs Sith, and coming up with more factions is just going against the fiber of what Star Wars is (which is why I think the Vong is jack shit, and so are Wankalorians who can hold their own against jedi/sith).
There was no original theme of Jedi vs Sith. The term Sith was mentioned in the OT a Grand total of no times.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
AndroAsc wrote: too much "new faction/stuff" is just an indicator of piss poor writing.
Another strong faction would be terrible writing. But:
- We aren't talking about a completely faction. Just Snoak, a single person, taking over the remains of an already existing faction.
- Whatever Snoak is, if he's following a non-sith darkside tradition, it's one that decided to hide from the sith. Suggesting a weaker faction.
Plus, I can't think of a better end to the Sith Order than their tradition of the Apprentice killing the Master backfiring by one killing the other then dying from injuries he suffered in the fight. Which is what ROTJ gave us. Having an enemy that keeps coming back because writers can't think of anything new is also bad writing.
Another nitpick that I am surprised nobody has pointed out, but does the "new" TIE Fighter design not bother anyone? From ANH to ROTJ, we saw a progression from the TIE Fighter to the TIE Interceptor, which is backed up by a ton of supporting literature in the EU that the TIE Interceptor was the clearly superior design. And now, we're back to a "new" design based on the inferior TIE Fighter design? This fucking makes no sense!!!
AndroAsc wrote:I am going to nitpick further on terminology. They used the term 'awakening' which has never been used before! It is a disturbance in the force you mother fucking fake Jedi and sith.
Similarly, the falcon is a piece of junk, not garbage. If you are trying to make a reference, get it right!! Is the job requirement in this star wars movie to have not watched star wars in your life?
Rey in this movie is quite literally undergoing an awakening to her force abilities, meaning the term is spot on.
Also, why does it need to be word for word in your opinion to be a reference? You understood even without it being exactly the same, what it was alluding to. I don't see the issue.
Also the words are synonyms of each other depending on how you use it (Referring to the worn out looking falcon), so I see your complaint as being even more pointless.
We do not need SW apologist neophytes here on this board. Sure, awakening might be an appropriate term. Anakin had his awakening, so did Luke. Nobody in the fucking SW verse uses "awakening". It is a DISTURBANCE in the force.
A reference needs to be word for word because it is a fucking reference. Interchanging junk for garbage just shows that the people who wrote this do not know what Star Wars is. In fact, it would have been better to insert "What a piece of junk" comment from either Finn or Rey in homage to Luke's original comment. You do not replace words and call it a reference. It is the same thing when Han Solo says he "has a bad feeling about this" (thank god they got that right). Should we replace Han's line to "I have a bad vibe about this"?
I'm not being an "apologist" for anything. Does the word "Awakening" not get used at all in the SW universe? Does it always have to be a disturbance?
You're just being an overly nit picky asshole. I also still don't think it needs to be word for word to be a good reference. I understood where they were coming from when they said that and still got a good laugh.
Ok, here are my thoughts about the movie, having come back from seeing it a few hours ago.
First, I loved it. While I fully acknowledge how light the film went on worldbuilding, the seeming plot holes, and the conveniences that happened...I feel that much of that can be expanded upon in the next installment. For an action packed Star Wars movie that included X-wings, TIE fighters, lightsabers, the Force, the Millennium Falcon, likable new characters and the familiar old ones...this fit the bill perfectly. I had a lot of fun watching it, I had a grin on my face for most of the movie, and I felt like a kid again. So I'd say the movie was a hit for me.
The good stuff:
I loved the effects. I was at no time thrown out of my immersion (well, aside from the Starkiller beam weapon effect at one point, but I've explained below). Aside from that though, the movie just looked good. Really good.
The on-screen chemistry was perfect. While at times it seemed implausible that certain things would happen (Finn losing his cool after a lifetime of training for one thing), I think that the characters got along fine with each other. There's definitely a new Luke / Leia / Han thing going on with Poe, Finn, and Rey.
The comedy was well done. It wasn't over the top and there was no Jar-Jar-esque character.
The homages to past movies were not overdone. Plenty of dialogue referencing events that happened in the past without reliving it. Leia's comment about Han's good ideas ending up like they did on the Death Star made me laugh. The trench run was clearly lifted from ANH but they spent less time on it than they did in ANH so they weren't over-milking that part. As a side note...Poe's X-wing had a shitload of proton torpedoes in it's magazines...he must have fired off more than a dozen of them.
They kept many recognizable icons of the old movies while updating them to be unique in their own right. Two-seater TIE fighters with additional weapons and a rear turret, for instance. The Star Destroyer looked good (and I loved the opening sequences of it moving in front of the moon).
The meh stuff:
There are definitely questions that need to be answered. I am ok with the idea of keeping this movie simple to prove to us that JJ can make an entertaining movie, but lots of plot stuff needs to be addressed in the next movie. What is the overall political situation of the galaxy? What happened to Coruscant? What was the New Republic like and how badly was it hurt by the Starkiller attack? Is the First Order what's left of the old Empire or is it a splinter faction, similar to how the Resistance is a splinter of the NR? What exactly happened on Jakku? Is Finn Force sensitive or was he just using his pre-existing melee combat training? I hope these are answered in the next movies.
Some things that will I'm certain will be answered in the next movie (or two) include Rey's lineage and who / what is Snoke and what does he want?
I am on the fence about how convenient some of the events were. Han and Chewie just happened to be in the same system when the Falcon was trying to escape? How did Poe manage to escape and rejoin the resistance? It's convenient how Finn managed to crash close enough to the settlement that he didn't die of thirst, and that the settlement was small enough that he bumped right into BB-8 within minutes of arriving. But then again, it moved the story along without too much handwaving...so...whatever.
I agree that the effect of hitting a stormtrooper with a fighter-grade weapon would be a bit...messier than what we see on screen. For that reason I can understand why they DIDN'T go for realism there.
The not-so-good stuff:
I think Captain Phasma went out like a bitch (no pun or sexism intended). She was really hyped up as a badass femtrooper and basically was forced at gunpoint to disable the planetary shields...then locked in a trash compactor. She should have had a chance to prove how dangerous she really was...or at least not cave in so easily with a gun to her head. You know...willingness to sacrifice herself for the cause? I agree with previous posters who compared her to Boba Fett. Both were set up to be the ultimate badass then died / were defeated in really lame ways.
I disliked being able to see the Starkiller beam from Mas Katana's planet. It reminded me of the Star Trek reboot where somehow Spock was able to see the destruction of Vulcan from Delta Vega, a planet that was supposed to be lightyears away. This was later retconned by saying that Delta Vega was part of a binary planet system with Vulcan...which isn't much better. That whole thing was sloppy. In this movie, supposedly the core of the New Republic, Mas Katana's planet, and Starkiller were many lightyears apart. There is no way to see any of what happens...unless a hyper-speed energy weapon can somehow be visible great distances due to the uniqueness of how the weapon operates. That was the one thing in the movie that broke my immersion (but thankfully the only thing).
Misc thoughts:
I naturally did not like killing Han off, but the way they did it was for the betterment of the story...like how Obi Wan died. He didn't die cheaply. Plus, we saw what a really angry Wookie is capable of.
I think that Kylo Ren is a great villian, because he is shown to be flawed. He clearly lacks the restraint that a proper Sith would have, and it shows in how easily he loses his temper and how his connection to the Force weakens when he realizes he's getting hurt. At the same time, he still seems to be able to be redeemed later on...probably when it's revealed that Snoke was just using him the way the Emperor was using Vader. I agree that he was a bit of a pussy, but you don't have to be a badass to be a good villain. This actually leaves room for him to grow later on. I wonder if Episode 8 has Luke schooling him and turning him against Snoke?
Part of me was honestly hoping that we'd see Leia use the Force or at least have her own lightsaber. She clearly sensed when Han died, but I would have thought that she had received at least a bit more training from Luke during the past 20 years. Or maybe she did and we just never had the opportunity to see it this time around?
Was Luke shocked to see Rey? They were staring at each other for a fairly long time without saying anything or even moving. Was it the fact someone found him, the fact she had Anakin's lightsaber, her Force potential, or (possibly) as his daughter?
Does the Starkiller totally suck the entire contents of the star into the planet, or just siphon off a ton of it's energy and store it in the capacitor? Does the star fully die or does it just go temporarily dark due to the amount of energy that was sucked out of it? I'm thinking the latter...otherwise the Starkiller would have to be able to move to a new system to suck dry a new star each time it fires.
So I guess that's all for now. My mind is still swimming so I'm sure I'll have more thoughts and comments later. But overall, the fact I'm still euphoric from seeing it means that I really enjoyed it and any questions or problems were minor enough to not interfere with my enjoyment of the movie. I will certainly have to watch it again.
Last edited by Borgholio on 2015-12-19 09:11pm, edited 3 times in total.
AndroAsc wrote:Another nitpick that I am surprised nobody has pointed out, but does the "new" TIE Fighter design not bother anyone? From ANH to ROTJ, we saw a progression from the TIE Fighter to the TIE Interceptor, which is backed up by a ton of supporting literature in the EU that the TIE Interceptor was the clearly superior design. And now, we're back to a "new" design based on the inferior TIE Fighter design? This fucking makes no sense!!!
AndroAsc wrote:Another nitpick that I am surprised nobody has pointed out, but does the "new" TIE Fighter design not bother anyone? From ANH to ROTJ, we saw a progression from the TIE Fighter to the TIE Interceptor, which is backed up by a ton of supporting literature in the EU that the TIE Interceptor was the clearly superior design. And now, we're back to a "new" design based on the inferior TIE Fighter design? This fucking makes no sense!!!
The TIEs were holding their own over Starkiller Base (just as they did over the DS1 in ANH) so where do you get the 'inferior' from?
Besides, the 'progression' from the Standard TIE to the interceptor lead to ...a TIE with differently shaped wings and the cannon being in the wingtips. Everything about the interceptor being superior to the standard TIE Comes from the EU.
Besides, how is the TIE being developed into the two seat TIE with a rear-firing turret and Missiles any different from the old Standard TIE being developed into the interceptor?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
I'm still betting that Snoke is the evil space wizard of Oz, and is either a weak force user or outright charlatan posing as someone far more powerful in order to control Kylo Ren and the First Order. That being said, he mentions the "Knights of Ren", whoever they are, so that at least hints at another tradition of darksiders besides the Sith.
you don't have to be a badass to be a good villain
You don't, but you do need to have some degree threat/menace*. They started off decently, but they made him look incompetent/foolish too often. (The moment after Rey escapes, with the stormtroopers backing slowly away was awful). An unstable, emotional villain is fine, but you need to back that up.
*compare Loki from the Avengers, who turns out to be a complete bitch 1v1 (being beaten down rather humorously by the Hulk), but is nonetheless an effective and threatening villain because of his ability to sow havoc.
Last edited by Kingmaker on 2015-12-19 09:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box
Boba Fett was never set up to be the ultimate badass. In the movies, he was a nonentity that got eaten by the Sarlacc.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
AndroAsc wrote:Another nitpick that I am surprised nobody has pointed out, but does the "new" TIE Fighter design not bother anyone?
I think it's a much bigger beast. For a start it's a two man vehicle and has a small turret on it. But this was all about calling back to EpIV which didn't have those vehicles.
To be honest I was less fond of the X-wings. It was my understanding that the S-foils are extended to help with heat dispersal by doubling the surface area of the wing (or something like that). But with the split wing, what doesn't really gain you anything except a slightly wider firing pattern which doesn't seem like it would work unless you fire all the guns at once.
Batman wrote:Boba Fett was never set up to be the ultimate badass. In the movies, he was a nonentity that got eaten by the Sarlacc.
True...there has been so much fanwankery about him over the last 30 years that I actually honestly forgot that in the beginning, he was pretty much a mook.
