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APlayerHater wrote: ↑2018-01-16 09:40pmNah, if someone's strong in the dark side the force creates a light side being to opposed them. Because the force is evil and wants to just watch people fight forever. It doesn't matter if you kill Rey or Kylo, a new force avatar will just spring into existence apropos of nothing. That kid with the broom was probably given the force powers of Luke and Snoke combined after the events of TLJ.

Kreia was right.

Heh.

Yeah 'Darth' Kreia, the most 'Telegraphed' villain yet in the SW universe.

Still.. am pretty sure the old West End games predate that sequel by a few decades.

I do wonder if Rian Johnson might had read some of that type of stuff about the Force and hence his take on every one suddenly just 'Manifesting' powers... because Force reasons?

Dass.Kapital wrote: ↑2018-01-17 05:38am I do wonder if Rian Johnson might had read some of that type of stuff about the Force and hence his take on every one suddenly just 'Manifesting' powers... because Force reasons?

Literally the only force power we ever see Luke use after he is taught about it is deflecting blaster shots.

Force powers just manifest.

It's how Star Wars works.

Try watching some not thinking movies work like fucking roleplaying games.

The worst thing is, that's how they work in roleplaying games, too. Jedi teaching is valuable but there's plenty of examples of it not being necessary to realize basic skills in the EU and other sources.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-01-17 07:50am The worst thing is, that's how they work in roleplaying games, too. Jedi teaching is valuable but there's plenty of examples of it not being necessary to realize basic skills in the EU and other sources.

Well, to be fair to roleplaying games, you mechanically just buy/choose new force powers when you level up. It's expected from a roleplay perspective that you probably at least do something to earn them.

Like in D&D, wizards can learn spells from other wizards, or on level up; it's just kind of assumed that any spells you learn on level up you were either researching or learning about on your own.

I'd say in however many years between ANH and ESB, maybe Luke was practicing with the force and learned he could move small objects on his own; he also likely made some use of the lightsaber, but never fought another opponent who had one. (He basically just uses it as a convenient cutting tool) Later in RotJ his powers have matured fully so he can use the jedi mind trick too. Yoda trained Luke in the understanding of the nature of the force and its connection to everything, which enabled him to fully use his powers.

Rey instantly learning every force power kind of stands out. She can casually move tons of rocks without ever having the "size matters not" self doubt that Luke had, and she can order soldiers to just release her and drop their guns. Luke can make Bib Fortuna look kind of confused and repeat what he says (oh yeah, and he force chokes a couple gammorean guards).

Basically there was nothing for Luke to teach her, other than explaining to her what the force is (basically just rehashing the first lesson Obi taught him) that's about it, she was already intuitively stronger than he ever was. The screenwriter had nothing to say about the force. If they could come up with anything interesting or new I'm sure they would have put it in the movie.

Snoke knowing sith lightning also came out of nowhere. We've only ever seen the emperor or his apprentices use that ability, but I guess any old schmuck can use it now if he's evil enough. I guess the Sith's thousands of years of secrecy and tradition through the rule of 2 was pointless. Any random can just come up with all the sith techniques on his own.

I guess force stasis is Snoke's technique, but why give him lightning too?

Umm. She's learnt to move tonnes of rocks after being locked in the vice-like grip of Snoke. Pretty sure she has reasons to know the force can move objects, even without Luke mentioning that ability speccifically.

As for Luke having nothing to teach her... umm. Force Projection?

As for the lightning, why would it be exclusive to the sith? It's exclusive to them because they're the bad guys in the films, it hardly means they're going to be the only guys ever to think of zapzap.

Besides, dead Yoda was able to conjure up more powerful lightning than either Palps, Snokes, Dooku or all those other pissants.

Just like every other force ghost.
And since Obi and Yoda wanted the Emperor dead that's why RotJ ended with them killozapping Palpatine and Vader.

Looks they didn't need another hope after Luke, the power was inside them the whole time.

Given that at one point Kenobi was going to emerge as a force ghost in RotJ and help strike down Palpatine, not so far off from their initial conception, no.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-01-17 08:33am Umm. She's learnt to move tonnes of rocks after being locked in the vice-like grip of Snoke. Pretty sure she has reasons to know the force can move objects, even without Luke mentioning that ability speccifically.

As for Luke having nothing to teach her... umm. Force Projection?

As for the lightning, why would it be exclusive to the sith? It's exclusive to them because they're the bad guys in the films, it hardly means they're going to be the only guys ever to think of zapzap.

We see Yoda and Count Dooku have a force duel, it's unimpressive compared to Rey and Kylo's abilities, and nothing compared to Snoke. The power creep in these new movies is silly. Suddenly Luke is astral projecting to the other side of the galaxy and Yoda's ghost is summoning lightning bolts. It's like they couldn't come up with a new narrative, so just recycle the old stuff but make the character's stronger.

By the next movie they'll be flying around in space and shooting laser beams like it's Dragonball Z

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-01-17 08:33am Umm. She's learnt to move tonnes of rocks after being locked in the vice-like grip of Snoke. Pretty sure she has reasons to know the force can move objects, even without Luke mentioning that ability speccifically.

She not only bloody saw Kylo do it with Luke's lightsabre but damn near brained him with the thing when she did it because she decided she'd rather have it for herself in TFA. I think we can safely assume she knew you can move objects with the Force before she ever arrived at Luke's hideout.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-01-17 11:40am Just like every other force ghost.
And since Obi and Yoda wanted the Emperor dead that's why RotJ ended with them killozapping Palpatine and Vader.

Looks they didn't need another hope after Luke, the power was inside them the whole time.

Look the reason why they didn't show themselves to Palpatine is that if Palps was dead and if he came back as a Force Ghost, then they'd end up ghost lightning-ing each other and at that point neither Obi or Yoda knew how many spherical masses of iron, or ghost iron, ghost lightning could vaporize.

In my head canon I always saw the Force as a more direct manifestation of nature which did not adhere to human dualist notions of good and evil. It's more like pairing creation/destruction, life/death, order/disorder. We may prefer one to the other but both, in balance, are necessary for nature. Life without death and we drown under excess bodies. Without destruction there's never the space for anything new. Absolute order is stasis and some disorder is necessary to shake things up. It's our human weakness to ascribe moral values to such concepts, to see one side as clearly good, the other side as clearly evil, to try and maximize one over the other with no fuller understanding of the system. In our vain and ignorant we cast aside natural harmony for an artificial ideal that is, of course, unnatural. You could also compare this to the idea of whether nature is something to be tamed and brought to heel in service of man or whether we should find our place in nature, find a harmony that sees us in balance. We can look back over our own history and see cases where moral judgement is cast in ways that seem silly now. Look at these native peoples living in ignorance, naked and comfortable living off the fruits of the land. They know nothing of industry and earning a comfortable rate of return. Let us preach the evangel of market capitalism! Look at those decadent westerners exploiting the proletariat. Let us preach the evangel of communism and show our way is best! And in any of these arguments it's taken as a given that you can only be 100% on one side or the other, that there exists no middle ground, that a blended approach is impossible.

By this head canon, the Force is not sentient, does not have a will. But it is something we as humans are prone to personifying. And because access to this much power can draw upon human desires, we could ascribe the temptation to something without instead of something within.

The Jedi and Sith are both at fault here because they embrace only one side of the Force. The Sith feel there's nothing of use from the light side and the Jedi are too afraid of what can happen when tapping the dark side that they reject it utterly.

I always thought that there were also two ways of tapping the force, with calmness and deliberation (the light side) and with raw emotion (the dark side.) The Jedi way stresses utter control and is a slow, methodical process of gradually giving the student access to more power only when they are responsible enough to have it. The Sith way grants power far more rapidly, hence being seen as stronger, but it's actually the "quicker, easier, more seductive" thing going on. It would also leave a user more likely to get in over his head and flame out. The Sith would view this as a feature, not a bug. Weak apprentices reveal themselves early on and the master can concentrate on worthy survivors.

A weapon like a blaster or lightsaber has no agency, no moral character. It can be used for good or evil and judgement of the morality of such actions can only be made against the person wielding the weapon, not the weapon itself.

Of course, this head canon also rejects a lot of the prequel changes. The Jedi were not a monastic order in the OT. If Obi-Wan met Anakin after he was already the best pilot in the galaxy, he clearly wasn't a child as the prequels made him out to be. The EU had tons of married Jedi, Jedi with children, etc. And Lucasfilm had the oversight to reject this sort of thing if it went against canon. There many examples of editorial control being exercised.

Batman wrote: ↑2018-01-17 01:49pm She not only bloody saw Kylo do it with Luke's lightsabre but damn near brained him with the thing when she did it because she decided she'd rather have it for herself in TFA. I think we can safely assume she knew you can move objects with the Force before she ever arrived at Luke's hideout.

I think this is partly where Rey's abilities lose me. There are an absolute ton of things one can do with their body but that in no way grants the ability to do it. Rey would basically watch 10 seconds of a Bob Ross video then pump out a brilliant painting. Luke clearly knew the Force could move things when he showed up at Dagobah but couldn't get his X wing out of the swamp.

APlayerHater wrote: ↑2018-01-17 01:10pmWe see Yoda and Count Dooku have a force duel, it's unimpressive compared to Rey and Kylo's abilities, and nothing compared to Snoke. The power creep in these new movies is silly. Suddenly Luke is astral projecting to the other side of the galaxy and Yoda's ghost is summoning lightning bolts. It's like they couldn't come up with a new narrative, so just recycle the old stuff but make the character's stronger.

By the next movie they'll be flying around in space and shooting laser beams like it's Dragonball Z

I've divided my response because people in this thread seem utterly allergic to talking about other SW products. Pick your poison, don't respond to the parts you don't care about:

---

Section 1: Legends Response

0min 40secs in.

This lady here is not the Sith Emperor of her time, she's not on the Dark Council, she's not a 'Darth' she's a 'Lord' the fourth rank down in the hierarchy; the one every sith got on completing their apprenticeship at this time.

---

Section 2: Disney Canon on Force Powers

Snoke's power to use telekinesis through a hologram is not unprecedented at all. We have no indication from canon that it's even difficult.

---

Section 3: Movies-Only Response
You think Snoke's telekinesis is impressive? To manhandle one small human?

These fuckers are dismantling large parts of the scenery in their wizard's duel. Even more scenery gets torn up in the senate fight.

The only power we see from Snoke that's new is the ability to bond Jedi's minds, which has appeared in different forms in Legends, but not in the current canon. What you basically seem to be saying is that he's super powerful because there's no example of anyone else doing what he does? That pretty much rules out any new force powers.

Snoke's unprecedented visions-bonding isn't even quantifiable, not like Palps tossing Senate pods. Vader's strangled people to death over holos too.

Dass.Kapital wrote: ↑2018-01-17 05:38am

APlayerHater wrote: ↑2018-01-16 09:40pmNah, if someone's strong in the dark side the force creates a light side being to opposed them. Because the force is evil and wants to just watch people fight forever. It doesn't matter if you kill Rey or Kylo, a new force avatar will just spring into existence apropos of nothing. That kid with the broom was probably given the force powers of Luke and Snoke combined after the events of TLJ.

Kreia was right.

Heh.

Yeah 'Darth' Kreia, the most 'Telegraphed' villain yet in the SW universe.

Still.. am pretty sure the old West End games predate that sequel by a few decades.

I do wonder if Rian Johnson might had read some of that type of stuff about the Force and hence his take on every one suddenly just 'Manifesting' powers... because Force reasons?

Um, how does the Force creating Light Side champions to counter the Dark Side make the Force evil, or reduce it to just wanting people to fight? Presuming Snoke wasn't just bullshitting?

I mean, by that argument, its evil to ever resist tyranny or oppression. We should just surrender rather than fight. I'm often inclined towards non-violence, but even I would not condemn the arrival of a Lincoln to fight Jefferson Davis, or of an FDR to confront Hitler.

APlayerHater wrote: ↑2018-01-17 01:10pm By the next movie they'll be flying around in space and shooting laser beams like it's Dragonball Z

Flying through space was already in this movie...

And that's not a great extension from the established "Force jump" seen in earlier stuff.

Also works as just another application of Force Full. Leia pulls on the ship and since the ship is somewhat more massive than she is she moves towards the ship rather than the other way round

Batman wrote: ↑2018-01-18 11:23am Also works as just another application of Force Pull. Leia pulls on the ship and since the ship is somewhat more massive than she is she moves towards the ship rather than the other way round

Yeah that was my reading.

The surviving in space was more interesting, not without precedent (eg Mustafar )

For me personally, the main issues with Space Leia is less what happens and more a) the CGI for it looked bad, and b) while Leia is established to be Force sensitive, and likely pretty naturally strong since she's a Skywalker, they don't really set up her as having spent any time developing her Force skills in that way. It's the first time and only time in all of the movies that she uses the Force in a physical manner. All of the other times were more in terms of perception or intuition (connecting with Luke at Bespin, sensing Han's death, etc). If they had established that Leia had pursued Jedi training in any way, like establishing her as Luke's first student or something, then for me the only issue would have been the bad CGI.

Batman wrote: ↑2018-01-18 11:23am Also works as just another application of Force Full. Leia pulls on the ship and since the ship is somewhat more massive than she is she moves towards the ship rather than the other way round

Physics! Except Yoda didn't get pulled towards the X-wing in ESB (there isn't THAT much friction with the ground) or crushed by it.

We often see Jedi move things far more massive than themselves with no indication there is anything newtonian going on. They are not just manipulating things from afar. When they pick something up they aren't just extending their reach and holding up the mass with their bodies, they are having an unseen force manipulate things locally unless you want to say they are simultaneously using force strength, force center of gravity shift, force momentum cancel, and force skeletal structure buff.

Its pure magic. Everything with the force has always been pure magic.

Just a though: does Leia fall behind the accelerating cruiser? Her self TK is doubly impressive if she outpaces a cruiser doing it.

Likewise can we judge the cruiser's acceraltion from this at all?

NecronLord wrote: ↑2018-01-17 07:37pm Section 3: Movies-Only Response
You think Snoke's telekinesis is impressive? To manhandle one small human?

These fuckers are dismantling large parts of the scenery in their wizard's duel. Even more scenery gets torn up in the senate fight.

The only power we see from Snoke that's new is the ability to bond Jedi's minds, which has appeared in different forms in Legends, but not in the current canon. What you basically seem to be saying is that he's super powerful because there's no example of anyone else doing what he does? That pretty much rules out any new force powers.

Disregarding the cartoons I would doubtlessly have complained about had I watched them...

Dooku summons 2 pieces of machinery from the wall, each of which are smaller than Yoda. Dooku then breaks the ceiling to call down 3 tiny rocks. These rocks are also smaller than Yoda himself, who is like 2 feet tall.

Yoda comments how powerful Dooku is, and apparently this means Dooku has "become more powerful than any Jedi" by calling on the dark side of the force...

Meanwhile, Rey casually lifts a 1 thousand ton pile of boulders from over a hole in TLJ 18 hours after she learns the force exists, because Kylo said "the force" to her.

Rey's abilities are not in keeping with the power Jedi supposedly possessed. She's evidently way stronger than Yoda or Dooku. Yoda even says that Rey has surpassed him in TLJ.

Specifically, she lifts this pile of rocks.

Which itself is not 1 or 2 moderate weight objects but many independent heavy objects.

As for the senate fight: The senate seats themselves already levitate.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-01-17 11:35pm

Dass.Kapital wrote: ↑2018-01-17 05:38am

APlayerHater wrote: ↑2018-01-16 09:40pmNah, if someone's strong in the dark side the force creates a light side being to opposed them. Because the force is evil and wants to just watch people fight forever. It doesn't matter if you kill Rey or Kylo, a new force avatar will just spring into existence apropos of nothing. That kid with the broom was probably given the force powers of Luke and Snoke combined after the events of TLJ.

Kreia was right.

Heh.

Yeah 'Darth' Kreia, the most 'Telegraphed' villain yet in the SW universe.

Still.. am pretty sure the old West End games predate that sequel by a few decades.

I do wonder if Rian Johnson might had read some of that type of stuff about the Force and hence his take on every one suddenly just 'Manifesting' powers... because Force reasons?

Um, how does the Force creating Light Side champions to counter the Dark Side make the Force evil, or reduce it to just wanting people to fight? Presuming Snoke wasn't just bullshitting?

I mean, by that argument, its evil to ever resist tyranny or oppression. We should just surrender rather than fight. I'm often inclined towards non-violence, but even I would not condemn the arrival of a Lincoln to fight Jefferson Davis, or of an FDR to confront Hitler.

Well... I think in the above context is because, as kind of shown, the 'Force' is making BOTH light as well as Dark force users so that there's always 'Balance' between the two sides.

The down side being the damage that is causd as the pendulum swings between one group rising into ascendance over the other.

The Sith use weapons of mass destruction to grasp the galxy in their metal fists.

The Jedi and their allies (And unfortunate collateral damage) as they drive the Sith back into the sdarkness, freeing every one. (Except the force sensitive people who are removed from their families and other rather intrusive 'For the greater good' policies the Jedi council have shown to act upon)

ONLY for the Sith to begin their inevitable rise to power again.

Rinse/repeat, seemingly forever.

I was just offering a comment to Kojiro about how West End games dealt with things.

Back in the day when any one creating anything for the setting HAD to make sure it passed Lucas' (Or who ever) seal of aproval that it 'Matched'. (Yeah, I know that it was still some times pretty hit and miss. )