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Yup. I think it's pretty telling that the real defining feature of all the major dark side characters across all seven movies now has been selfishness. For Vader particularly it was his single biggest character flaw. His entire fall was built around trying to save someone elses life because of what their death would cost him. His redemption was built around saving someone elses life despite what their life would cost him.

You could probably make an argument that that's the real conflict between force users, not light vs dark but self centered vs selfless.

To some extent, Light vs. Dark could be described as the summarized as "the Selfless Side" and "the Selfish Side".

Soooort of. Jyn was supposedly drawing on the dark side while she was fighting Kylo Ren, but she was doing that by putting herself in danger to protect her friend, which is hardly a selfish act.

You could probably argue that the light side is unemotional and controlled, while the dark side is wild and passionate. That would mean it's a lot easier for a light side user to measure themselves against an ethical system. Contrast with a dark side user, who would need to be an unusually selfless individual not to become evil by acting mostly on what they think is right in a moment of passion.

You mixed up Rey and Jyn their.

Anyway, source for Rey drawing on the Dark Side? It was ambiguous at most in the film (though it would arguably improve Rey's characterization, as the main issue with her is that she's seen as being too perfect).

Also, doing it to save her friend doesn't necessarily make it selfless. Otherwise, you could say the same about Anakin's actions to save Padme. Was she thinking about him, or the effect losing him would have on her? Was she acting to protect him, or out of rage at what happened to him?

I will also note that I very strongly oppose the interpretation that "Light Side=unemotional". The Jedi of the Old Republic linked the two, and the two certainly can be connected, but the films pretty clearly show that Jedi dogma took it too far. Otherwise Luke would have been acting from the Dark Side when he refused to kill his father, and I don't think that's the case.

Rather, I think the distinction between Light and Dark is between selfless/positive emotion, and selfish/hateful emotion, and between controlling that emotion, and being controlled by it.

Edit: Their is a pretty clear progression in the films, showing the Jedi Order developing from an institution that surpasses normal emotional attachment, to one that is stronger because of it.

Darth Yan wrote:If it were an asshole who suddenly turns good at the last minute it feels....wrong.

Isn't that what we got anyway?

I don't know what you're imagining in your head, but my version of ROTJ wouldn't be a solid hour and 45 minutes of Vader being a ruthless prick and then suddenly demonstrating signs of conflicted feelings at the very end.

Just because he's not Anakin doesn't mean that Darth is a one-dimensional villain.

Have the Empire win the Battle of Endor, as they should have. The SSD never goes down because they dedicate a tiny bit of space onboard that massive vessel to computers whose only purpose is to manage battle damage. That way, the navigational complex being destroyed wouldn't cause the Executor to careen into the DS2's surface. Instead, the computers would instantly detect the false input and correct it, thus keeping the SSD firmly in place. This would give time to the backup bridge to take over where their fallen comrades had left off. This way, the Empire has the upper hand throughout the battle and eventually defeats the Rebel fleet. Palpatine still dies, but the DS2 is not destroyed either - because the primitive ewoks are defeated. Or the shields are disabled, but the Empire sees to it that there are anti-starfighter frigates (Lancers, Tartans, etc.) placed at all of the entrances of the access tunnels.

I mean, the Lancer was commissioned specifically as a response to the catastrophic failure of the DS1's anti-starfighter capabilities. So it's inconceivable that none would be fielded at Endor.

Galvatron wrote:

Darth Yan wrote:If it were an asshole who suddenly turns good at the last minute it feels....wrong.

Isn't that what we got anyway?

I don't know what you're imagining in your head, but my version of ROTJ wouldn't be a solid hour and 45 minutes of Vader being a ruthless prick and then suddenly demonstrating signs of conflicted feelings at the very end.

Just because he's not Anakin doesn't mean that Darth is a one-dimensional villain.

It's more that Vader had already gotten a karmic comeuppance years ago and realized long ago that he destroyed his own life. The bit where he considers luke's offer and says "it's too late for me" is perfect.

If at some point in your movie Vader has a realization earlier on that all he's done is create more chaos and destruction than I could buy it.

The main reason is also that Obi Wan and Yoda being ambiguous is good. It shows that even mentors have flaws and you shouldn't blindly heed them. Obi Wan and Yoda had good reasons (shame, fear that Luke would try to save Vader rather than kill him). It just seems like a pathetic attempt to prettify Obi Wan and Yoda

Darth Yan wrote:If at some point in your movie Vader has a realization earlier on that all he's done is create more chaos and destruction than I could buy it.

Well, he would.

However, his ideal outcome would be usurpation of the Emperor's throne so he could rule the galaxy with Luke at his side. In his mind, the galaxy would still be better off under his benevolent dictatorship than it would if the rebellion prevailed, so it's not as if Vader's entire personality would change over night.

Furthermore, this change doesn't entirely "prettify" Yoda and Obi-Wan because they'd remain firm in their belief that Vader is a lost cause. My ROTJ wouldn't change that aspect of their characterizations.

Darth Yan wrote:Gandalf and Galvatron's suggestions just seem insincere and came across more as last minute redemptions rather than something that was bubbling all along beneath the surface or lacked a sufficient heel realization.

Where did I state that this happens at the last minute? I would have this set up somewhere in the opening scenes. My idea continues from lines in ESB when Vader is trying to convince Luke to join him. Vader might not be able to take out the Emperor and rule the Empire on his own, but with Luke by his side he just might be able to pull it off and end the civil war once and for all.

In this, Vader becomes like the problem gambler, convinced that as things get worse and worse, the next manoeuvre will be the one to bring the big, final win which makes everything okay. He's the perfect tool for someone like the Imperial cabal because while he's a great enforcer, his skills stop there. He can't really gather a faction and overthrow anyone, or play one against the other. It would be this realisation that makes Vader decide to turn against the Empire. He can't save the galaxy, and no individual could. But, he can kill the guys at the top doing the most damage and make room for Luke, Leia and the Rebellion to save the galaxy itself.

Commander Veers wrote:Have the Empire win the Battle of Endor, as they should have. The SSD never goes down because they dedicate a tiny bit of space onboard that massive vessel to computers whose only purpose is to manage battle damage. That way, the navigational complex being destroyed wouldn't cause the Executor to careen into the DS2's surface. Instead, the computers would instantly detect the false input and correct it, thus keeping the SSD firmly in place. This would give time to the backup bridge to take over where their fallen comrades had left off. This way, the Empire has the upper hand throughout the battle and eventually defeats the Rebel fleet. Palpatine still dies, but the DS2 is not destroyed either - because the primitive ewoks are defeated. Or the shields are disabled, but the Empire sees to it that there are anti-starfighter frigates (Lancers, Tartans, etc.) placed at all of the entrances of the access tunnels.

I mean, the Lancer was commissioned specifically as a response to the catastrophic failure of the DS1's anti-starfighter capabilities. So it's inconceivable that none would be fielded at Endor.

Hardcore, bro.

It kinda does. Having Anakin be Vader subverts the "son of the great hero" aspect in that the hero also fell. It also means that they weren't entirely pure and good; it makes them more fallible and shows that you shouldn't be overly reliant.

You want Vader to only be a villain. The redemption is actually one of the best parts of the entire mythos and you would kinda cheapen it.

In any case it could be that Vader broke down and had time to think, or Palpy found out. One fan theory was that when Palpy dispatched Mara he knew full well she'd fail; he was sending vader a message of "I know what you're plan is and it isn't going to work"

How does it cheapen the redemption of Vader at all? Even if he starts out as a pissy Draco Malfoy-like Jedi apprentice in the prequels, he still winds up saving his son, killing the Emperor and handing the rebels a conclusive victory. Redemption achieved. What more do you want?

Tightening up the dialogue, for a start.

De-cutify the Ewoks a bit. Less Teddy Bear and more Big Dog. Take out their more childish traits.

Treat the space battle as more of an event in and of itself, not just a backdrop.

Make the final battle on "The Forest Moon", just as epic as the space battle.

Maybe I've been spoiled a bit by Rogue One, but something like that. Seeing the Ewoks being vicious little man-eating bastards...seeing their 'Viet Cong/Na'vi' style ambushes from the Stormies POV.

"WHY THE FUCK ARE WE WEARING WHITE ARMOUR MAN? THIS IS BULL--aahrrhhggARGghghghg!!!"
"Oh Gods! They got TK-2215! Those fuzzy little nerfhumpers got TK-2215!! AAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" *proceeding to open fire with whatever the empire uses for a GPMG*

ou mixed up Rey and Jyn their.

Anyway, source for Rey drawing on the Dark Side? It was ambiguous at most in the film (though it would arguably improve Rey's characterization, as the main issue with her is that she's seen as being too perfect).

Also, doing it to save her friend doesn't necessarily make it selfless. Otherwise, you could say the same about Anakin's actions to save Padme. Was she thinking about him, or the effect losing him would have on her? Was she acting to protect him, or out of rage at what happened to him?

I will also note that I very strongly oppose the interpretation that "Light Side=unemotional". The Jedi of the Old Republic linked the two, and the two certainly can be connected, but the films pretty clearly show that Jedi dogma took it too far. Otherwise Luke would have been acting from the Dark Side when he refused to kill his father, and I don't think that's the case.

Rather, I think the distinction between Light and Dark is between selfless/positive emotion, and selfish/hateful emotion, and between controlling that emotion, and being controlled by it.

Edit: Their is a pretty clear progression in the films, showing the Jedi Order developing from an institution that surpasses normal emotional attachment, to one that is stronger because of it.

I did too. I blame the booze.

Dark side source, top of my head I don't remember where but one of the writers I think spoke about it in an interview, and it does make sense given the scene.

That said, I don't think light side unemotional is what I meant. Light side seems to be more about focus and will as opposed to lack of emotion. It's not about not having emotion, but on not just acting on your emotions but on thought and willing what you think should happen on the universe as opposed to the dark sides wildness. It's a way of thinking that could easily lead the less thinky members of your congregation to shortcut to no emotions allowed at all though.

Amusingly it also mean someone like Finn is likely to make an ideal Jedi because he clearly has much greater than normal mental and emotional resilience than most. That's kind of my pet issue though, the sheer amount of excellent symbolism they wasted on him in the TFA is he isn't/doesn't become a Jedi really bugs me.

Finn is very much driven by his emotions. It is his fear and horror at experiencing actual battle, and then being ordered to kill civilians, that makes him hesitate. It is likely the fear of the consequences for his new doubts about the First Order that make him break out Poe and flee. It is fear of the First Order that makes him initially want to keep running, and his devotion to Rey that ultimately drives him to fight them instead of run from them. He is entirely driven by his emotions. They tend to lead him in the right direction, but he's definitely emotion-driven.

I think you're pretty much spot-on here about the Light Side, though.

And it makes sense for Rey to have to struggle with the Dark Side in coming films.

See, their's been a lot of talk about how quickly Rey picks up Force powers, whinings about Mary Sues, etc. But here's how I see it:

It doesn't necessarily take a long time to learn how to use the Force, at least if you have enough innate potential and the right frame of mind. Anakin was able to use the Force to enhance his piloting and (implicitly) his mechanical skills with basically no training, as a child. Luke was able to use the Force somewhat to block blaster bolts and take out the Death Star after maybe a few hours of training, at most, over the course of a few days. And he evidently was self-taught telekinesis, unless he had an off-screen mentor between Episode IV and Episode V (not sure what the EU has to say on that point, if anything). Leia was able to use the Force a little, unawares, with no training at all. And in the old EU, Revan was able to pick up the Force fairly fast (though he had previously learned how to use it, just had amnesia). And we see even ordinary Padawans in the Prequel era who can fight pretty well with a lightsaber.

If you have the potential, it seems that you can learn to use the Force pretty quickly, with the key factor being state of mind- calm for the Light Side, rage/hate for the Dark Side, and probably for either, the belief that you can accomplish what you're trying to do, as Yoda explains to Luke on Dagobah. The reason why Jedi training took a couple of decades normally is more about a) the fact that the Jedi had to teach their students all the other necessary skills for life, since they were raised in the Jedi Temple, and b) most importantly, because they were using that time to teach them the right mindset, and indoctrinate them in the Jedi philosophy.

Rey is evidently a natural at using the Force in a technical sense. She has the raw power, and evidently has the right mindset, since she was able to beat Kylo Ren twice in a contest of will (first when he tried to invade her mind, then when she pulled Anakin's sabre away from him and to her).

However, she has no training in when and why to use the Force, and how to avoid temptation by the Dark Side. She's a nice person, but she's in over her head.

Edit: And having her be tempted, giving her that flaw, would also likely reduce the whining about her being a "Mary Sue".

Actually, now that I think about it, a very interesting new direction to take the series would be to have Rey fall at the end of Episode VIII or early in IX (possibly precipitated by Luke's death), and have IX be about Finn trying to redeem her.

Edit: Which would fit with the central themes of falling and redemption in Star Wars, with Finn being someone who's driven by his connection to Rey, and with the theme Force Awakens seemed to be setting up of Rey, as opposed to Kylo Ren, being the true successor to Anakin (as demonstrated when she, not Kylo, was the one able to call Anakin's lightsaber to her).

You make some interesting points about Force training. Perhaps what takes the time is learning to control the Force and use it consciously in all situations, rather than when under extreme stress (Luke flying in the trench, Anakin podracing, Rey fighting Kylo in the snow).

Maybe it is analogous to childhood accidental magic in Harry Potter? Every magical child has the ability but no control, so it manifests itself in moments of fear or peril or anger or whatever.

Their's probably a degree of refinement that comes with experience, yes.

Again, I think a lot of it is down to state of mind. Some people will require years of study and meditation and experience to be able to consistently achieve and maintain that state of mind. Others will never be able to attain it at all. Still others will grasp it much more naturally.

Their's also likely to be a difference between being able to use the Force reliably while training in the Jedi Temple or whatever, and using it reliably under combat conditions.

My sense of Rey is that she's a natural at using the Force in a technical sense, but that does not necessarily mean knowing how to use it responsibly.

Having it be the case that Rey was using the Dark Side without realizing it would be a nice twist on her abilities that were otherwise too powerful without much of a downsie. Her fatal flaw relative to Luke should reasonably be that she lacked the stable upbringing that made him much less susceptible to the Dark Side than most other Jedi.

It would actually be interesting if Rey were naturally more able to tap into the Dark Side than Kylo Ren, as she lived in an environment that was full of struggle, while he actually had a stable family upbringing that made it more difficult.

Rey being more naturally inclined toward the Dark Side would make sense if not for the fact that from everything we see prior to that, Rey is a genuinely nice person, if a bit withdrawn and initially overwhelmed by events. And I'd think that at this point, Kylo Ren would still be more able to access it, if only due to long exposure to and use of it.

However, Anakin was a nice child, and look how he ended up. And Rey doesn't even have the training he had (though it could be argued that traditional Jedi training did more harm than good for Anakin).

All that said, I don't think Rey was using the Dark Side throughout. I don't think that fits. But for the last minute or so of the duel, when she goes on the offensive against Ren... yeah, their's a moment their were it seems like she gives in to her anger. And that's the first step...

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think it could work. Combining it with other plot ideas, it could go something like this:

Episode VIII: Rey trains with Luke, and likely finds out Luke is her father. Or at the very least, he is her mentor, and the closest thing to a father that she has.

End of the film, she duels Kylo Ren again. Both of them are stronger than last time, but she is still stronger. She has him at her mercy, and chooses to spare him.

However, then Snoke shows up. Snoke blasts her with Force lightning or something. Luke arrives and confronts Snoke. Luke is winning until, distracted with holding off Snoke's attacks, he gets stabbed in the back by Kylo.

Rey, enraged, kills Kylo (who, let's face it, is not a terribly impressive villain, even if he's an interesting character) and falls to the Dark Side, joining Snoke.

Episode IX is Finn's quest to redeem Rey.

I don't know, their are some problems with it, but its an interesting thought.