Death Star

[Ritterin Sophia]

Wait, don't Spock and his gaggle of idiots say that the Death Stars use Hypermatter Reactors and ISD's use Fusion Reactors, disregarding that they're complete morons, the next run in with them should be interesting.

[Darth Ruinus]

On the topic of Starfleetjedi I want to point out something I just read over there that made me go LOL

The lack of a planetary shield admitted by the book would immediately point out that the Death Star can't output anything near e38 joules, or even e32 joules, because the movie is extremely clear about the power of the beam in case there's no shield: it's a powerful blast that completely burns a whole hemisphere, literally peels off a good chunk of the surface and sends a super hot ionized atmosphere into space, but it's far from being anything close to blowing up even half a planet.

[Anguirus]

^ He must have been watching a different movie.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How was there a claim that Alderaan had no shield? Its visible; and the beam is halted for a fraction of a second.

[Vehrec]

I think what is being claimed is some funky shield-beam reaction like what happens when you hit a Shield with a Las-gun in Dune. This is a crazy comparison to make, because we have seen what happens when shields are hit by lasers in Star Wars, haven't we?

[Ghost Rider]

I think what is being claimed is some funky shield-beam reaction like what happens when you hit a Shield with a Las-gun in Dune. This is a crazy comparison to make, because we have seen what happens when shields are hit by lasers in Star Wars, haven't we?

I hope so. And given X-Wings, the Falcon, ISDs, and the Death Star haven't had some whacky chain reaction I'm thinking they aren't even claiming that.

Of course the most humorous bit is they are trying to use EU to refute the movies. Ah the little chitterlings, it's amazing how much they devote to their obsession.

[Darth Servo]

On the topic of Starfleetjedi I want to point out something I just read over there that made me go LOL

The lack of a planetary shield admitted by the book would immediately point out that the Death Star can't output anything near e38 joules, or even e32 joules, because the movie is extremely clear about the power of the beam in case there's no shield: it's a powerful blast that completely burns a whole hemisphere, literally peels off a good chunk of the surface and sends a super hot ionized atmosphere into space, but it's far from being anything close to blowing up even half a planet.

Mindless repetition of Scooter's original "argument" that was the subject of Mike's debate with him.

See also

[Starglider]

That quote says the Death Star actually blew a significant portion of Alderaan's mass into hyperspace, ie- accelerated it to greater than the speed of light; how the fuck does that represent a decrease in power rather than increase?

It almost certainly does increase it, probably by a few orders of magnitude;

The hyperdrive of a Star Destroyer consumes as much energy in a single hyperjump as many planetary civilizations will consume in their entire lifetimes

You estimated this as 3E25 J. The volume of an ISD is about 1.3E8 m^3. The volume of earth is 1.08E24 m^3. If an ISD is as dense as molten iron, or the power requirements for placing objects in hyperspace is volume-dependent, that implies an energy expenditure of 2.5E41J for placing the entire planet into hyperspace, as opposed to the 1E32J binding energy lower limit for disassociating it or the 1E38 estimate based on the observed velocity of the Alderann explosion.

Note that this assumes an ISD mass of a little over a billion tonnes, if hyperjump energy requirements are mass based. Unfortunately I couldn't find any reliable figures for actual ISD mass anywhere, but if it's less than this the energy requirements (for the planet) go even higher. Conversely if ISDs actually mass more than a billion tonnes the energy requirement will be lower.

[Kane Starkiller]

Further, it suggests that the first quote is not in reference to normal reactor output, but probably a reference to what would happen if the magnetic-ring beam-director doodads failed to direct the hyperspatial effect accordingly. (I'd be interested to see the rest of the context to confirm.)

This is Darkstar trying to claim that the line about Death Star's reactor capable of providing energy burst equal to several stars actually describes "what would happen" rather than simply stating raw energy.
Curiously though "total weekly output of several main-sequencee stars" doesn't say a damn thing about "what would happen" it only gives us the number of Joules pure and simple. Can these guys get any more desperate?

It is correct that the phrasing of the first quote you refer to is actually interpretable both ways.
One can see that it may relate to what the hypermatter reactor would do when about to explode. That is, loose control over its reaction.

That would mean that under a controlled reaction, the reactor is incapable of producing such power.

Same applies with the Imperial Star Destroyer equipped with a prototype hypermatter reactor which blew up in her face and disintegrated the whole ship.

Gotta love these fanatics. And then Mr. Oragahn says he is not a Trekkie. No sir. That's it the reactors produces billions of times more energy when they malfunction. See I'm not at all emotionally attached to my position and always approach a problem with a scientific detachment. That's why I always keep spouting these far fetched theories that just happen to drastically lower SW power generation even though there are quotes EXPLICITLY stating them.

[Vympel]

Can these guys get any more desperate?

Yes. Yes they can. Incidentally, Kane, do you even post there?

[Connor MacLeod]

I guess those guys forgot to mention that Despayre got blasted apart earlier in the book, and we failed to see any "planar rings" when it happened? Or the only other taget (a Lucehulk vaporized by the DS) also failed to produce any magical planar rings which are attributed to the hyperspace effect?

Let's not forget that every refreence to the hypermatter reactors (the Death sTar's, the ISD-2 that got turned into plasma, etc.) suggest it is merely a brute force energy approach like its always been. No magical "hyperspaital trickery" that they want to pretend it is.

Besides as Starglider has pointed out, we have AMPLE proof that Hyperspace transitions are energy intensive. both going in and coming out. That's why you can't stay indefinitely in hyperspace (IE why there is a hyperdrive range.) Hell even the novel points to jumping to hyperspace involving a relatavistic acceleration as we've long known (VAder's TIE, much like Fett's ship in Bloodlines or the MF in Hutt Gambit.

They won't pay attention to any of this. They'll latch onto the "hyperspace" part as if it suddenly provides an explanation for Darkstar's "Myserious unknown mechanism." Like they always do, they'll pretend the evidence fits their own ideas (Rather them forcing the evidence to wrap around what they want it to be.) and decry everything else as evil warsie propoganda. They've been doing it that way for years now, I don't see why a new book should change that atittude at all.

AFte rall, these are the same people who think that the Culture and 40K universes (the latter equal to SW and the former more powerful) would also be beaten by Trek. you can't reason with people who keep insisting their pet universe will beat all comers no matter how powerful they are. Ask anyone who'se dealt with Adarx or Rabid Fivers

[NecronLord]

AFte rall, these are the same people who think that the Culture and 40K universes (the latter equal to SW and the former more powerful) would also be beaten by Trek.

They think ST powers could beat the Culture? What the fuck are they smoking, and where can I get some? (And also, any quotes? They've got to be comedy gold.) As for 40K. Much the same as SW, but on a slightly smaller scale and with less industry, and more rampant monstrous uber characters... Stands to reason they'd think ST could beat that if they think it can beat SW...

[Aratech]

AFte rall, these are the same people who think that the Culture and 40K universes (the latter equal to SW and the former more powerful) would also be beaten by Trek.

They think ST powers could beat the Culture? What the fuck are they smoking, and where can I get some? (And also, any quotes? They've got to be comedy gold.) As for 40K. Much the same as SW, but on a slightly smaller scale and with less industry, and more rampant monstrous uber characters... Stands to reason they'd think ST could beat that if they think it can beat SW...

Check out some of Spikeenigma's posts over at SB.com he's a rampant believer in the ability of the Culture to get stomped by Trek, by, get this: time travel.

You may now commence with your derisive jeers and laughter.

[DarthShady]

WTF is wrong with trekkies?Do they have some sort of disease that prevents scientific and logical thoughts?
One can laugh him self to death by reading some of the stupidity they post on starfleetjedi.

[Ritterin Sophia]

WTF is wrong with trekkies?Do they have some sort of disease that prevents scientific and logical thoughts?
One can laugh him self to death by reading some of the stupidity they post on starfleetjedi.

What do you expect, most of them are Darkstar Acolytes or Banned SDN Trekkies who are butthurt that they weren't smart enough to argue logically.

[Kane Starkiller]

Yes. Yes they can. Incidentally, Kane, do you even post there?

Not anymore. Every now and then I see a moronic argument and think "wow they completely missed the X, Y ,Z let me go in and set them straight" only to see they are beyond reason and will lie to your face without so much as batting an eyelash.
I remember one time when JediMasterSpock claimed that Death Star is not really a starship but merely a "station with hyperdrive slapped on" and yes he actually used the phrase "slapped on". Intriguingly he remained utterly silent when asked to elaborate on this but didn't budge one inch from his original position.
Here is a link if you wish to see just how beyond reason these people are:
+http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22


Look at this "response" from Mr. Oragahn:

So yes, this is a possible interpretation. But we have our fair share of disagreements on open ended descriptions, don't we?

That's it boys and girls "total weekly output of several main sequence stars" is open ended so we can go on to conclude that it doesn't really tell us anything about energy output.

There is difference between a controlled chain reaction and an uncontrolled one, just as much as, for example, a nuclear power plant and a nuclear warhead.
Considering the exotic features hyperspace and hypermatter has been given in this EU book, if any hypermatter based reaction went wonky, yes, one interpretation says that we could expect a catastrophic overload to happen.
Again, you're free to disagree with that.

They still cling to their precious chain reaction even though novel mentions no such thing. Naturally he provides not a shred of evidence that reactor failure would lead to millions of times greater power outputs. I guess shifting the burden of proof now comes automatically to these people.
Although he will graciously allow me to disagree with his fanatical no-evidence claims. How nice.

[Deathstalker]

Page 27
Quote:
The Port Heavy Blaster Station CO, Captain Nast Hoberd, was a drinking buddy with Lieutenant Colonel Luah....

...

White-glove a surface in any of the six turbolaser turrets or two heavy ion cannon turrets, and there wouldn't be a speck of dirt.


....

You didn't get to shoot the big guns unless you had plenty of practice shooting hte little ones.

I like this quote myself. it implies that the gunners on the DS weren't cross-eyed or assigned to DS guns by Imperial bureaucratic snafu, as stated in the WEG DS tech manual. That Snafu being gunners were assigned alphabetically by their last name and were broken up from their training teams thereby reducing their effectiveness.

[AK_Jedi]

Slightly OT, I was reading the book and came across this little gem:

By creating a false identi-tab he became Teh Roxxor, and inspector employed by a civilian contractor who built storage bins for recycling stations, which gave him a reason to be in such places.

I can just see a planet somewhere where 1337 speak is the language and people walk around with names like "leet pwnage" and "Super Snpr 16"

[Darth Ruinus]

Slightly OT, I was reading the book and came across this little gem:

By creating a false identi-tab he became Teh Roxxor, and inspector employed by a civilian contractor who built storage bins for recycling stations, which gave him a reason to be in such places.

I can just see a planet somewhere where 1337 speak is the language and people walk around with names like "leet pwnage" and "Super Snpr 16"

u53 t3h f0rc3!!!

(I dont know, I dont speak 1337)

[Lord Poe]

Slightly OT, I was reading the book and came across this little gem:

By creating a false identi-tab he became Teh Roxxor, and inspector employed by a civilian contractor who built storage bins for recycling stations, which gave him a reason to be in such places.

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well it wouldn't be the first time that a name in Star Wars was a pun or reference.

[VT-16]

They've already used n00b several times, in its correct context, not as a name, though.

I still like Villian Dance.

[Connor MacLeod]

They think ST powers could beat the Culture? What the fuck are they smoking, and where can I get some? (And also, any quotes? They've got to be comedy gold.) As for 40K. Much the same as SW, but on a slightly smaller scale and with less industry, and more rampant monstrous uber characters... Stands to reason they'd think ST could beat that if they think it can beat SW...

From what I gather this was on one of the older sites those yahoos ran before they got closed down (either Newland's or Darkstar's, I forget which.) for the Culture one. But yeah, it did happen.

In the 40K vein I believe it started with "Worf vs A Space Marine" and some morons believed that worf actually stood a chance. (There is another thread like that but smaller over on Starfleet jedi, someone pointed out the older thread involved comparing a space marine to a muscleman with a broken bottle or something like that.) STarfleetjedi also has another thread on 40K vs SW + St. For some reason, SW and 40K were both said to use "fusion reactors" because the powerplants "sounded like fusion." Spock also dismissed alot of the higher end 40k figures because they were supposedly "unrealistic". Star Trek of course was the golden boy in all those cases (SW wouldn't have contributed much to the battles save maybe grround forces or raw materials/ or something like that.)

Ironically, the SFJ site also seems to be a refuge for alot of the weider Stargate folk (Oraghn and L33telboi both post over there frequently, and do extensive stargate "analysis" over there.. for whatever the hell tht is worth. I'm sure you'd be more aware of stargate analysis than I am )

[Connor MacLeod]

Look at this "response" from Mr. Oragahn:

So yes, this is a possible interpretation. But we have our fair share of disagreements on open ended descriptions, don't we?

That's it boys and girls "total weekly output of several main sequence stars" is open ended so we can go on to conclude that it doesn't really tell us anything about energy output.

There is difference between a controlled chain reaction and an uncontrolled one, just as much as, for example, a nuclear power plant and a nuclear warhead.
Considering the exotic features hyperspace and hypermatter has been given in this EU book, if any hypermatter based reaction went wonky, yes, one interpretation says that we could expect a catastrophic overload to happen.
Again, you're free to disagree with that.

They still cling to their precious chain reaction even though novel mentions no such thing. Naturally he provides not a shred of evidence that reactor failure would lead to millions of times greater power outputs. I guess shifting the burden of proof now comes automatically to these people.
Although he will graciously allow me to disagree with his fanatical no-evidence claims. How nice.

That's the "all theories are equally valid irrespective of the assumptions made" attitude when it comes to analysis, which for some bizarre reason is rather commonplace, especially over at SB. Its often believed that a theory can be "equally valid" even if it is more complex because we don't know enough.

This is very much the sorrt of legalistic/political approach to evidence, research and analysis these people favor, because it allows them to more easily get away with twisting or manipulating evidence the way they want. You will noticee, ,for example, while they keep insisting that the DS novel corroborates a "technobabble chain reaction" or "its too vague to be definitive" depending on who is complaining, they never actually bother to cite specific sources of inconsistency, or point to anything which supports technobabble. They just mumble vague stuff about "it fitting, so it must be true.) Whereas (as Starglider and others have pointed out) we have numerous examples and indications that hyperspacec transitions are energy intensive events, and no evidence to the contrary that you can "cheat" your way in. They also think that all you have to do is point out a single contradiction (or supposed contradiction, more often than not) to invalidate the source. (which they've been doing to the ICS forever.)

What is truly galling, however, is that they clearly do not apply this same standard when it comes to Trek. Take spock's attitude on Warp speeds, for example. how many excuses and theories and explanations has he made up to justify the sorts of speeds he claims? Or his insistence on firepower. It's especially hypocritical how they will blithely dismiss any legitimate contradiction (re: again warp speed) as being irrelvant for some reason (IE Spock's "they need to keep gassing up" idea.)

The novel itself, as the quotes indicate, is quite straightforward. IT talks about energy in many of the calculable examples, it gives no definite indication of technobabble (gee, I guess the "definite proof" angle only applies ot other people!) and it fits with what we know already (or can tell from the movies.) But then again, who can actually admit to being surprised that they would leap onto this as "proof" of their beliefs? They do that with every new SW novel that comes out, it seems. (ROTS novel anyone?)

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally, it just occured to me that since the novel specifies that Hypermatter reactors occur in both ISDs and the Death Star, there is greater justification for scaling down the reactors of the DS and an ISD from the ICS diagrams to derive power generation