More proof the Empire is seriously undermilitarized...

[Galvatron]

If the Empire conscripted/recruited 3% of the population of each world and each world has 10 billion people, and the Empire has 12 million worlds, that's 3,600,000,000,000,000.

I'd say those numbers are way overblown, unless there's some evidence that the majority of the Empire's population consisted of humans. I mean, let's face it: the Imperial military was, to a man, almost exclusively human.

My feeling has always been this: the Rebel Alliance had no ISD-calibre capital ships until after ANH. It's my belief that the regional governments started throwing their lot in with the rebellion only after Palpatine finally crossed the line by dissolving the Imperial Senate. Perhaps more than even the destruction of Alderaan, that was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

Furthermore, without the Death Star to "keep the local systems in line," the Empire suddenly had no way to maintain their tight control through fear as planned and, as Leia warned Tarkin, the pissed-off constituent worlds of the ex-Senators started slipping through Palpatine's fingers and became openly rebellious. Hence Mon Cal's direct support of the Alliance by the time of ROTJ.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Reduce it to 1.2 million then. And worlds have mixed populations.

[Thirdfain]

Let us go over the facts:

The Rebellion has access to the manufacturing facilities for supercapital sized warships.

We have seen the KDY, and the yards in orbit around Yevetha. You can not hide orbital construction facilities. In addition, such facilities require huge amounts of resources to operate. Thousands of tons of food and water, tremendous amounts of spare parts, and many more objects. Hiding such large-scale production is all but impossible.

The Rebellion is allied with, and works closely with, the Mon Calamari, who control an entire region of space (when conquered by the Empire, the Mon Calamari where already building unarmed versions of the MC80, and other vessels of supercapital size. This is indicitive of advanced contrustion technology and the resources of more than one planet.)

Mon Calamari was occupied by the Empire, ergo the Empire must have been forced off for the Mon Calamari to be working with the Rebellion. This indicates that the Rebellion can fight conventional warfare, at least on a limited scale. The fact that the Empire did not counterattack and take Mon Calamari shows that there was sufficient Rebel military force to deter an immediate counterattack.

Seeing as the Rebellion has the capability to take and hold Imperial systems, if only on a limited scale, it must be assumed that they have a significant resource base- a network of Rebel worlds, not dissimilar from the Confederate states, from which to manufacture, supply, and support sorties such as the one which took Mon Calamari.

The Rebel Alliance is more than just a few vagabonds and highwaymen gathered on a tiny moon over Yavin, it is a multiworld power capable of daunting the Empire and securing eventual victory.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why is it so hard to believe that the Rebellion is a large, well funded and powerful organization? Obviously, they were powerful enough that the Empire didn't just fly in and wipe Mon Calamari (and any other Mon Cal colonies out there) off the map. Don't give me this "The Empire Didn't Think it was Important" Bullshit. The Mon Calamari were a multiplanet star-nation before the Empire arrived, and were a major source of slaves and materials. Why not cut off the Rebellion's only source of supercapital warships? It's not like the Imperials didn't know the Rebels were there...

Its not hard to understand. Given the Empire's size, scale, and observed combat capabilities, combined with the Rebels' need to engage the Empire as terrorists, partisans, and guerillas, its makes no sense that somehow Calamari was independent and producing warships actively for the Alliance with no knowledge of the Empire.

Perhaps they were making the spaceframes/cruise liners and some of these were smuggled away to be refit as Mon Cal war cruisers, but there's no way there was an active military presence at Mon Cal the Empire couldn't annhiliate relatively effortlessly in comparison to the rest of their scale.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Reduce it to 1.2 million then. And worlds have mixed populations.

This is assinine, we're going to shoe-horn the scale of the Empire to fit in with some openly retarded quote from the same people who think the AT-AT is 15 m tall, can't figure out the layout of the Falcon, and believe an SSD has 11 engines and is 8 kilometers long. Fuck it.

[Thirdfain]

Given the Empire's size, scale, and observed combat capabilities, combined with the Rebels' need to engage the Empire as terrorists, partisans, and guerillas,

Actually, the only times we see the Rebellion battle the Empire, they are either defending bases which are meant to be secret, and therefore have limited protection (note the lack of capital ships defending either Yavin or Hoth) Or attack with enough force, using fleets of supercapital ships, to acheive conventional military victory. While The Rebellion relied heavily on guerrilla and partisan tactics, they also have showed hte ability to field conventional forces- of course, they only do this in areas they believe they can acheive local superiority... Such as at the Battle of Endor.

its makes no sense that somehow Calamari was independent and producing warships actively for the Alliance with no knowledge of the Empire.

WE know for a fact that Mon Calamari was at one point an Imperial slave-world, and at a later date, actively supplying the Rebel Alliance with warships, trained crews (who wore Mon Cal military uniforms, no less!) and supplies. Somehow, the Imperial occupation was broken, and the Mon Calamari began providing the Rebels with supercapital warships. Whether it makes sense to you or not, it is true. There is NO WAY the Empire didn't know about the shipyards around Mon Calamari. Your statement is false- The Empire knew about Mon Calamari. Don't tell me they didn't attakc becuase they thought a reconquered slave civilization with massive ship production facilities presented no danger to the Empire...

[/quote]

[Thirdfain]

This is assinine, we're going to shoe-horn the scale of the Empire to fit in with some openly retarded quote from the same people who think the AT-AT is 15 m tall, can't figure out the layout of the Falcon, and believe an SSD has 11 engines and is 8 kilometers long. Fuck it.

The difference between the book's assertions about the design and scale of AT-ATs and SSDs and it's assertions about the strength of the Rebel Alliance is simple:

The ones it makes about the AT-Ats and SSD's dont fit the on-screen facts.

The ones it makes about the size of the Rebellion DO.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So you really believe the Rebel Alliance had holdings and infrastructure and industry capable of waging conventional war with the Empire?

There's simply no reason they wouldn't be able to retake Mon Calamari. They took Hapes, they took everything. Even the emasculated Empire six years post Endor was able to carve a swathe across some of the most fortified and defended worlds in the galaxy from Core and actually was assaulting Mon Calamari.

WEG also claimed that the "Imperial" class Star Destroyer was the premier battleship of the Empire, completely neglected the existance of canon HTLs as opposed to imaginary 60 x TL batteries, and claimed six SDs formed a massive fleet. Yet in TPM we see 1000s of TF Battleships easily for a political ploy.


Besides, this is ALL irrelevent: we know that nearly the entire collective Rebel Alliance fleet was collected for the assault on Endor. This alone shows they have no where near the scale of the Empire, even on a standard conventional fleet engagement, and a full-scale Imperial assault should've easily crushed Calamari if the fleet at Endor represented the Rebel backbone.

I will also add that there's no evidence that the Mon Calamari were actively constructing vessels after the Imperial fleet left until Endor.

Judging by the small numbers of ships, these easily could have been donated before the Imperial subjugation. The Yevetha yards have Executor-scale slips and Kuat can churn out ISDs by batches in the 100s. And who said anything about "hiding" full-scale fleet yards? The Calamari made standard cruise liners, which were what the MC 80s were. What is so hard to believe about that some of these cruise liners were donated to the Rebel cause and they were quietly refitted and modified into warships, which is what is implied anyway? No one ever said anything about full-scale naval mass-production and bringing up Yevetha and Kuat is a strawman without knowing when, how, how many, or what was involved with the Calamarian shipyards.

[Thirdfain]

Your logic is horrifically flawed. Look at what you just said:

There's simply no reason they wouldn't be able to retake Mon Calamari.

Yet, look at the canon reality. Mon Calamari isn't retaken.

They took Hapes, they took everything.

\

Hapes fields what, 36 ISDs? and has primitive laser technology? Evidence shows that Hapes isn't that mighty a force.

Even the emasculated Empire six years post Endor was able to carve a swathe across some of the most fortified and defended worlds in the galaxy from Core and actually was assaulting Mon Calamari

Sure, against a New Republic already torn by internal strife, corruption, and idiotic pacifism... In a fairly badly written set of EU comic books which fucked up alolot of continuity anyways...

[Commander_Arvel_Crynyd]

Quote from ANH

TAGGE:" Until this battle station is fully operational we are
vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more
dangerous than you realize."

MOTTI: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battle
station!"

there you go

[Illuminatus Primus]

Your logic is horrifically flawed. Look at what you just said:

There's simply no reason they wouldn't be able to retake Mon Calamari.

Yet, look at the canon reality. Mon Calamari isn't retaken.

Yes, but you tell me which is more likely: the Empire physically could NOT retake Mon Calamari, or they simply did not because they probably wrecked a lot of its shipmaking on the way out and the Mon Cals who were going to join the Alliance already had.

The Calamari were a big seller of space cruisers (the MC 80 precursors) until the Empire crushed them.

Since the Rebel's fleet is rather small (ref: ROTJ), and I haven't heard any evidence of ongoing naval mass-production after the Imperial fleet left Mon Calamari like you are implying, it makes sense that the Mon Calamari warships are refitted space cruisers which were likely donated when the Mon Calamari were crushed. Refitting and modification (which admittedly, all the MC 80s are, ref: EGtVV) is not a Kuat or Corellia or Bilbringi-intensive effort. A set of deepdocks can churn out Loronor Strike-class ships, and the platforms and docks observed from the games appear to be capable of serving a Mon Cal cruiser.

They took Hapes, they took everything.

Hapes fields what, 36 ISDs? and has primitive laser technology? Evidence shows that Hapes isn't that mighty a force.

They have hundreds of Battle Dragons and Battlecruisers. They independently developed practical grav well devices, and they were protected by a large area of difficult-to-penetrate hyperspace navigation hazards (the Transitory Mists). According to the author who wrote the Courtship of Princess Leia, the Hapans were subjugated easily because they were sold out, and they had actually put up a good fight for awhile.

Additionally, they were able to sieze several Imperial fleets of ISDs before the Imperial central authority collapsed. The Imperial High Command was still stable and in control until Coruscant fell, yet they couldn't prevent the Hapan theft or reclaim it. Why? Anyone who has read the novel can clearly see that the military prowess of the Hapans is clearly implied.

Even the emasculated Empire six years post Endor was able to carve a swathe across some of the most fortified and defended worlds in the galaxy from Core and actually was assaulting Mon Calamari

Sure, against a New Republic already torn by internal strife, corruption, and idiotic pacifism... In a fairly badly written set of EU comic books which fucked up alolot of continuity anyways...

Bullshit. Justify this.

The New Republic had just utterly crushed the Empire as soon as Thrawn died. They had already pushed them from Bilbringi (nearly the Core Worlds) all the way to the Outer Rim (ref: Essential Chronology) in less than six months while toppling at least a single warlord holdout thought strong enough to realistically support the construction of a Death Star-like battlestation. The Dark Empire Sourcebook clearly implies the New Republic's only major disadvantage that Palpatine exploited was that the main elements of the NRDF were out of position to defend Coruscant. Nothing about "internal strife," "corruption," and "idiotic pacifism" (gee, for reconquering about a quarter of the galaxy in less than six months, they are very pacifist, eh?) is associated with the New Republic's losses.

[Illuminatus Primus]

TAGGE:" Until this battle station is fully operational we are
vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more
dangerous than you realize."

MOTTI: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battle
station!"

there you go

Motti is one-up-ing Tagge, who was talking about how the battlestation was vulnerable until fully operational (obviously from ROTJ we see this is true of the Death Star battlestations).

Besides, the same movie shows us a tiny base with only a cluster of fighters for support.

[MKSheppard]

This is assinine, we're going to shoe-horn the scale of the Empire to fit in with some openly retarded quote from the same people who think the AT-AT is 15 m tall, can't figure out the layout of the Falcon, and believe an SSD has 11 engines and is 8 kilometers long. Fuck it.

These are the same people who say:

"The Galactic Empire consists of a thousand-thousand worlds caught in the iron grip of tyranny. "

"The Imperial Survey Corps, scientists and scouts charged with exploring the galaxy, has seen its funds cut sharply over the years. Still, a new system is being catalogued for the Empire every 207 minutes by the under-staffed ISC. "

"The Empire has not completely altered the governments of hundreds of thousands of worlds. "

"Originally a cluster of star systems with approximately 50 inhabited planets, the definition of a sector became vague and the average sector grew in size during the latter days of the Republic. Now unimaginably large sectors contain vast numbers of inhabited worlds with no regard to limiting factors. Sectors are governed by Moffs.

Sectors are grouped together into larger territorial entities called regions. The Empire has countless regions, which can contain from as few as three to upwards of thousands of sectors"

"An admiral in the Imperial Navy commands forces over 10 times as great as an admiral did during the Old Republic. "

"Whether black-clad Imperial soldiers or white-armored stormtroopers, the Imperial Army has grown into the mailed fist that pounds the thousand-thousand worlds of the Galactic Empire into submission. "

"There are whole star systems whose gross domestic product is less than the cost of a single Imperial Star Destroyer. There are whole nations which, throughout their entire history, do not use as much energy as an Imperial expends to make a single hyperspace jump. "

"A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor’s command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control. "

[MKSheppard]

WEG also claimed that the "Imperial" class Star Destroyer was the premier battleship of the Empire, completely neglected the existance of canon HTLs as opposed to imaginary 60 x TL batteries, and claimed six SDs formed a massive fleet. Yet in TPM we see 1000s of TF Battleships easily for a political ploy.

Most of them were converted cargo ships. That's like claiming that we could
quadruple the strength of the US Navy by impressing every US flagged
merchant ship and mounting a Harpoon launcher onto it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

WEG also claimed that the "Imperial" class Star Destroyer was the premier battleship of the Empire, completely neglected the existance of canon HTLs as opposed to imaginary 60 x TL batteries, and claimed six SDs formed a massive fleet. Yet in TPM we see 1000s of TF Battleships easily for a political ploy.

Most of them were converted cargo ships. That's like claiming that we could
quadruple the strength of the US Navy by impressing every US flagged
merchant ship and mounting a Harpoon launcher onto it.

Come on Shep. The TF Battleships mass far-greater than an ISD and their guns are about the size of HTL batteries aboard an ISD. Not to mention they have 1000s of fighters and vastly greater troop carrying ability than an ISD.

[MKSheppard]

Come on Shep. The TF Battleships mass far-greater than an ISD and their guns are about the size of HTL batteries aboard an ISD. Not to mention they have 1000s of fighters and vastly greater troop carrying ability than an ISD.

Episode I ICS says they're converted cargo ships. We have supertankers
that outmass the USS Nimitz.

[Illuminatus Primus]

"The Galactic Empire consists of a thousand-thousand worlds caught in the iron grip of tyranny. "

This was already obvious.

"The Imperial Survey Corps, scientists and scouts charged with exploring the galaxy, has seen its funds cut sharply over the years. Still, a new system is being catalogued for the Empire every 207 minutes by the under-staffed ISC. "

Utter WEG bullshit.

Every star system in the galaxy has been cataloged. (ref: AOTC).

"The Empire has not completely altered the governments of hundreds of thousands of worlds. "

How is this relevent?

"Originally a cluster of star systems with approximately 50 inhabited planets, the definition of a sector became vague and the average sector grew in size during the latter days of the Republic. Now unimaginably large sectors contain vast numbers of inhabited worlds with no regard to limiting factors. Sectors are governed by Moffs.

A lightly populated Chommel Sector has 40,000 settled dependencies.

"Sectors are grouped together into larger territorial entities called regions. The Empire has countless regions, which can contain from as few as three to upwards of thousands of sectors"

Yet their own fleet counts don't make sense with how big they say the galaxy is and how many ships are assigned to areas.

""An admiral in the Imperial Navy commands forces over 10 times as great as an admiral did during the Old Republic."

The Old Republic had no military other than the Security Forces. Wow. A group of patrolmen and police with pathetic 600 m frigate-scale ships as their pride of the navy.

""Whether black-clad Imperial soldiers or white-armored stormtroopers, the Imperial Army has grown into the mailed fist that pounds the thousand-thousand worlds of the Galactic Empire into submission. "

"Duh" moment due to movies.

"There are whole star systems whose gross domestic product is less than the cost of a single Imperial Star Destroyer. There are whole nations which, throughout their entire history, do not use as much energy as an Imperial expends to make a single hyperspace jump. "

Why is this suprising? Did anyone think Tattoine was worth more than an ISD when they saw ANH?

"A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor’s command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control. "

Yet the fleet counts only yield 1001 Sector Groups? That makes little sense.

My point is, with this information, it makes no sense to shoe-horn in the vast scale of the Empire when we see the comparitively pathetic Alliance's stature from the movies. Choosing between preserving the things WEG has said that made sense: ie. Sector Groups, galactic scale, etc. or claiming that the Rebellion could somehow magically defend a full-scale production center of Mon Cal but could not do so against a Empire six years post Endor leads me to consider the ratios being so generous to the Alliance as exaggerating.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Come on Shep. The TF Battleships mass far-greater than an ISD and their guns are about the size of HTL batteries aboard an ISD. Not to mention they have 1000s of fighters and vastly greater troop carrying ability than an ISD.

Episode I ICS says they're converted cargo ships. We have supertankers
that outmass the USS Nimitz.

And I suppose these supertankers can carry more fighters, and more ordinance?

Stop using nitpicking and using retarded analogies, Shep.

The only inherent superiority of the ISD is its firing angles. Otherwise the TF Battleship outclasses it in mass, firepower, and troop complement.

The point is not their origin; that is a red herring.

The point is they have been totally converted for combat and outclass the ISD as a combat vessel, yet are fielded in vastly higher quantities at the drop of a dime.

[MKSheppard]

The point is they have been totally converted for combat and outclass the ISD as a combat vessel, yet are fielded in vastly higher quantities at the drop of a dime.

Bullshit

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starsh ... ip/eu.html

The conversion wasn't entirely effective -- while the vessels themselves are powerful, they do have a number of weaknesses. The addition of retractable turbolasers along the equator of the ship's hull left large blind spots that speedy vessels could exploit, as the Naboo Royal Starship did during its escape.

What sort of stupid fucknut builds a battleship with fucking RETRACTABLE
gun turrets?

[Vympel]

The only inherent superiority of the ISD is its firing angles. Otherwise the TF Battleship outclasses it in mass, firepower, and troop complement.

The point is not their origin; that is a red herring.

The point is they have been totally converted for combat and outclass the ISD as a combat vessel, yet are fielded in vastly higher quantities at the drop of a dime.

IP, the TFed Battleship is woefully underarmed. It has 42 quad-laser emplacements- designed for anti-fighter work, according to the ICS- they're not in the HTL class. And as you mentioned, they're arranged in such a way that any TRUE combat ship (the ISD) would eat them for breakfast. Large sections of the ship are simply undefended- again according to the ICS- and let's not even begin to discuss armor.

You can't seriously claim that they're a superior combat vessel. It just ain't so. They're coverted cargo ships.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How the fuck should I know why they would do that?

All I know is their turbolasers are similar in mass/scale to HTL batteries on a ISD, except there are far more on a TF Battleship. They are more massive than ISDs, and have FAR more fighter, troop, and armor carrying capacity.

Whether their design is stupid or not is a red herring, Shep.

The point is is that a mere shipping company could toss 1000s ships that greatly out mass an ISD and are probably worth a lot more in resources and support. They could do this for a political ploy, and without worrying about being vulnerable to attacks from other shipping groups or pirates during the blockade.

Now if the Trade Federation can do that, do you expect me to believe Thirdfain that the Empire at its height could not muster the strength to crush Calamari effortlessly if it honestly was a full-scale, mass-producing military shipyard?

Or is more likely that the set of space cruisers were just private modified/refitted at locales across the galaxy to form the Rebel Alliance's backbone, and the Empire just got sick of dealing with harrassment with no gain from the Mon Calamari and withdrew, since they were planning to incinerate it with the Death Star anyway? There's no evidence that the shipyards were up and running and mass-producing military ships and the Empire had any reason to bother with Calamari before Endor and after they left. It is neither neccessary nor does it make any sense in context of the Empire's sheer strength according to both canon and WEG and the assault on Calamari six years after Endor in Dark Empire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The only inherent superiority of the ISD is its firing angles. Otherwise the TF Battleship outclasses it in mass, firepower, and troop complement.

The point is not their origin; that is a red herring.

The point is they have been totally converted for combat and outclass the ISD as a combat vessel, yet are fielded in vastly higher quantities at the drop of a dime.

IP, the TFed Battleship is woefully underarmed. It has 42 quad-laser emplacements- designed for anti-fighter work, according to the ICS. And as you mentioned, they're arranged in such a way that any TRUE combat ship (the ISD) would eat them for breakfast. Large sections of the ship are simply undefended- again according to the ICS- and let's not even begin to discuss armor.

You can't seriously claim that they're a superior combat vessel. It just ain't so. They're coverted cargo ships.

Their capabilities and cost in resources are all that matters. The TF battleship is at least the ISD's mass. It is primarily a carrier/troopship; to that end it carries far more troops, armored vehicles, and fighters than an ISD can. Its 42 batteries, while sorely placed, are fully-fledged turbolaser emplacements according to TOS, and they are also similar in scale to an ISD's main guns. The ICS says nothing about their utilization. The 8 kiloton point-defense guns are firstly for anti-fighter work.

[Vympel]

How the fuck should I know why they would do that?

To conceal their military nature, according to the ICS.

All I know is their turbolasers are similar in mass/scale to HTL batteries on a ISD, except there are far more on a TF Battleship.

Anti-fighter weapons, and placed terribly.

They are more massive than ISDs

They're quite hollow.

and have FAR more fighter, troop

Both true.

and armor carrying capacity.

False. No evidence for that, and every reason to think it's not the case, considering they are freighters.

Whether their design is stupid or not is a red herring, Shep.

It's directly relevant to their value as a combat ship, that's all I'm saying.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Vympel, by "armor carrying capability" I mean armor as in armored vehicles to be deployed ground-side. They most definitely do, according to the ICS' numbers.

[Vympel]

Their capabilities and cost in resources are all that matters. The TF battleship outmasses the ISD by several times.

It's mostly hollow space for fighters and troops. It can't fight.

It is primarily a carrier/troopship; to that end it carries far more troops, armor, and fighters than an ISD can.

The armor claim is false. No evidence for it, every reason against it.

Its 42 batteries, while sorely placed, are fully-fledged turbolaser emplacements according to TOS, and they are also similar in scale to an ISD's main guns.The ICS says nothing about their utilization. The 8 kiloton point-defense guns are firstly for anti-fighter work.

It doesn't have 8 kiloton point defense guns. The TFed battleship has 42 quadlasers, that's all. It also says:

"powerful turbolaser batteries designed to destroy opposition fighters"