Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by FaxModem1 » 2020-02-01 07:20am

Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-01 05:48am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-01-31 05:09pm
Rise of Skywalker is a mess, but a good training sequence, showing character growth, that a person is learning something, is better than 'that person is just naturally good at everything' and doesn't need to try.
I think you've misunderstood what character growth is in a story, having possibly confused it with levelling up in videogames.

Character growth in a story is not "character learns a skill", that's levelling up in videogames.

Character growth in a story is "character changes as a person in a way that causes them to behave in different ways".

That is, ultimately, why all the complaints about "Rey can do too many things" are irrelevant and wrong, because "can the character do the thing" is never the interesting question in a story, the interesting question is "will the character choose to do the thing", and character growth is the process of turning them from the person who wouldn't choose to do the thing to the person who would by resolving an internal conflict between what they want and what they need.

For a perfect example of this, where no-one would ever question whether the character can do the thing, look at Superman 2. In the movie Superman wants to be Clark Kent, he wants to be normal and accepted, but he has to accept the responsibility of being Superman. The movie is about him overcoming the internal conflict between those wants and needs until he accepts the difficult path of being Superman. Once he does that the physical confrontation with Zod and his goons is a foregone conclusion.

Likewise, when Han returns at the end of ANH there is not a tense scene about whether he is a good enough shot to nail the TIEs, because that would be a completely uninteresting question, the interesting question is whether he would choose to return.

Rise of Skywalker has no character growth because its characters do not process information and change their decisions. They just run around shouting and chasing macguffins and any consequences thereof are undone so nobody has to change at all. Having a "training scene" does not produce that if nobody ends the scene in a position that means they would make a different choice next time.

The Last Jedi is the one that has character growth because all three of its threads start with a character that makes wrong decisions, then they learn from the consequences of those decisions and change into the sort of people who make correct decisions.

People cried about it, of course, because they didn't want their shiny heroes to be people who made bad choices, but you have to have that to have room for them to actually grow.
You know. I'm glad you set me straight. All this time I thought Gold leader and Luke were having trouble making the shot to destroy the Death Star, and it all culminated in Luke's mastery of the force for the masterful shot to destroy it, making his training with Obi Wan mean something. Turns out, all the drama was them choosing on whether or not to destroy it, or go off to Canto Bight for a pint after choosing to miss and all their friends die horribly. There is drama in whether or not someone CAN do something, and if such training has paid off, or if they're not good enough.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vendetta » 2020-02-01 07:39am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-02-01 07:20am
You know. I'm glad you set me straight. All this time I thought Gold leader and Luke were having trouble making the shot to destroy the Death Star, and it all culminated in Luke's mastery of the force for the masterful shot to destroy it, making his training with Obi Wan mean something. Turns out, all the drama was them choosing on whether or not to destroy it, or go off to Canto Bight for a pint after choosing to miss and all their friends die horribly. There is drama in whether or not someone CAN do something, and if such training has paid off, or if they're not good enough.
I suspect you've also missed the point of Luke learning about the Force by the medium of the training drone as well. The point of the training was about trusting the Force instead of the senses he was used to, and when he makes the shot at the end it's because he does that. He was not unlocking a specific Force perk with his training points.

It's not whether he chooses to make the shot, it's whether he chooses to put his trust in the Force instead of his targeting computer.

And on Dagobah he can't lift his X-Wing because he doesn't trust the Force enough, because lifting a starfighter and a tiny pebble are the same thing to the Force.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by FaxModem1 » 2020-02-01 08:48am

Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-01 07:39am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-02-01 07:20am
You know. I'm glad you set me straight. All this time I thought Gold leader and Luke were having trouble making the shot to destroy the Death Star, and it all culminated in Luke's mastery of the force for the masterful shot to destroy it, making his training with Obi Wan mean something. Turns out, all the drama was them choosing on whether or not to destroy it, or go off to Canto Bight for a pint after choosing to miss and all their friends die horribly. There is drama in whether or not someone CAN do something, and if such training has paid off, or if they're not good enough.
I suspect you've also missed the point of Luke learning about the Force by the medium of the training drone as well. The point of the training was about trusting the Force instead of the senses he was used to, and when he makes the shot at the end it's because he does that. He was not unlocking a specific Force perk with his training points.

It's not whether he chooses to make the shot, it's whether he chooses to put his trust in the Force instead of his targeting computer.

And on Dagobah he can't lift his X-Wing because he doesn't trust the Force enough, because lifting a starfighter and a tiny pebble are the same thing to the Force.
Now you're getting around to that whole spiritual and emotional maturity thing I was talking about. It's not XP point and leveling up. That's what Rey does in the sequel trilogy, it's obtaining the relationship with the force by their self improvement of themselves and making a relationship with the force, as opposed to "easy button" RPG mechanics.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vympel » 2020-02-01 08:51am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-02-01 02:46am
I said I didn't want to get into it if its going to be personal, which these arguments unfortunately tend to do, but there is one point you made, and have just made again, that I'd like to address because I forgot to in my last post. In that post, you argued that Rey doesn't have feelings for Kylo Ren, she has them for Ben. My response to that would be that that is mere semantics because, Sith conventions aside, they're the same person. Kylo Ren is a name/title Ben Solo adopted when he decided to start murdering Jedi. He didn't literally become a different person. Nor did he literally become a different person when he gave up being evil. Maybe he changed. Good for him. But he still did those things. If an SS soldier who helped massacre a bunch of Jews or resistance fighters in WWII had a change of heart years later and felt genuine remorse... well, probably hardly anyone would believe him, but it still wouldn't change the fact that he was a mass murderer, and it wouldn't make his victims pain or demands for justice, or vengeance, go away.
Well as I said, Star Wars has always been very clear that when you turn to the dark side you essentially become a different person, spiritually speaking. When Anakin was seduced by the dark side, he ceased being Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. Those are Obi-Wan's words in ROTJ. That is the reason why Anakin appears as he does at the end of ROTJ - at how he looked pre 'fall'. This isn't semantics, its very much a real thing with hard 'edges' that is clearly telegraphed to the audience.

Same with Kylo Ren. The difference between him and Vader is that he very much has a conflicted spirit throughout the ST, rather than just the end. Given how the 'spiritual' side of the morality of Star Wars works, maybe you could consider that as Ben Solo, suppressed by the dark side, struggling to win out against the persona he became, but however you interpret it, it's definitely not a mere semantic question.

For Rey, her encounter with Ben/Kylo in their hut on Ach'To is the polar opposite of their encounter on the Supremacy, and that's deliberate. She sees (and senses) the good in him that is there, and its that which she wants.
Actually, that's what I would have liked. For Kylo to live at the end. For him to live, and have to live with the consequences of his actions, working with the people who who betrayed and hunted. Maybe he ends up tried for war crimes. Maybe he ultimately does die. Maybe he's grudgingly forgiven for realpolitik reasons because he switched sides, but has to live with the guilt and suspicion forever. That would have been original. Fresh.

"Redemption equals death" is an overplayed trope. Its the easy way out, the quick way for a writer to have their cake and eat it too, to have redemption but also punish the bad guy, while tying everything up in a neat little bow.

Also, fair point about the ending for Rey. And believe me, Reylo shippers aren't the only ones who dislike that. I wanted her to find a family she chose, not with Kylo/Ben but with somebody, to show that love makes Jedi stronger, as Luke did on Endor. But that would have meant actually making some hard creative choices and standing by them, and to borrow a line from Kingsmen, this ain't that kind of movie bro.
Yeah I agree that Ben living and doing well - almost literally anything - would've been better than what we got. I just saw Bad Boys 3 the other day and combined with Hobbs & Shaw and other movies of the Fast and Furious franchise, I am baffled that these movies have more room in their heart for a redeemed villain to live and attempt atonement than a Star Wars movie.

While I think the decision to kill Ben is fundamentally a cowardly one, I can also see other ways it is attractive. It's a thoroughly selfless act that's beyond moral reproach, and it has nice parallels with 'saving what we love' as a message and Anakin's mad quest to stop Padme from dying.
Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-01 06:02am
That has the same problem as Rey's accidental lightning in RoS does. It means that it wasn't a choice by the character, it was more like they tried to Force a fart too hard and followed through.

For Kylo Ren to be a substantive character at all he has to have taken an active hand in the fall of Luke's academy. It has to have been on purpose.
I'm waiting to see the comic finish it's run (it's four issues, halfway through) before I cast judgment in that respect - whether he takes an active hand in the fall of the academy or not is less important than whether he makes an active decision to commit to the dark side in general. It seems to be approaching a place where he's seeking out the Knights of Ren whilst being pursued by three of Luke's students. To make an assumption, I doubt any of those students will survive when they catch up with him.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vendetta » 2020-02-01 08:59am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-02-01 08:48am
Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-01 07:39am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-02-01 07:20am
You know. I'm glad you set me straight. All this time I thought Gold leader and Luke were having trouble making the shot to destroy the Death Star, and it all culminated in Luke's mastery of the force for the masterful shot to destroy it, making his training with Obi Wan mean something. Turns out, all the drama was them choosing on whether or not to destroy it, or go off to Canto Bight for a pint after choosing to miss and all their friends die horribly. There is drama in whether or not someone CAN do something, and if such training has paid off, or if they're not good enough.
I suspect you've also missed the point of Luke learning about the Force by the medium of the training drone as well. The point of the training was about trusting the Force instead of the senses he was used to, and when he makes the shot at the end it's because he does that. He was not unlocking a specific Force perk with his training points.

It's not whether he chooses to make the shot, it's whether he chooses to put his trust in the Force instead of his targeting computer.

And on Dagobah he can't lift his X-Wing because he doesn't trust the Force enough, because lifting a starfighter and a tiny pebble are the same thing to the Force.
Now you're getting around to that whole spiritual and emotional maturity thing I was talking about. It's not XP point and leveling up. That's what Rey does in the sequel trilogy, it's obtaining the relationship with the force by their self improvement of themselves and making a relationship with the force, as opposed to "easy button" RPG mechanics.
Which, of course, is why you were able to present that as your argument instead of complaining "Rey is naturally good at everything"....

Characters who are strong in the force are naturally good at things, even before they learn to use the Force on purpose. What, you think Watto sent Anakin to droid engineering college? That "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick" is a sign of emotional and spiritual maturity?

The path of a Jedi has never been about learning to Do Force Stuff, because opening yourself to the Force and putting your trust in it allows you to do things as diverse as making impossible torpedo shots and pick up lightsabres when you're hanging upside down from your ankles without anyone showing you how to do them or even suggesting that they are things you could do with it.

The path of a Jedi is learning when to use the Force and how to avoid the temptations of the Dark Side.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vendetta » 2020-02-01 09:20am

Vympel wrote:
2020-02-01 08:51am
I'm waiting to see the comic finish it's run (it's four issues, halfway through) before I cast judgment in that respect - whether he takes an active hand in the fall of the academy or not is less important than whether he makes an active decision to commit to the dark side in general. It seems to be approaching a place where he's seeking out the Knights of Ren whilst being pursued by three of Luke's students. To make an assumption, I doubt any of those students will survive when they catch up with him.
This sort of falls into the same hole as all the other arguments based on secondary sources though. It's not in the movies so it didn't really happen.

The turning point we know about from the movies is the fall of Luke's academy. That's the thing that Ben has to have a deliberate purposeful hand in to produce his fall.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vympel » 2020-02-01 09:29am

Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-01 09:20am
This sort of falls into the same hole as all the other arguments based on secondary sources though. It's not in the movies so it didn't really happen.

The turning point we know about from the movies is the fall of Luke's academy. That's the thing that Ben has to have a deliberate purposeful hand in to produce his fall.
Well yeah, so far as the films are concerned, Ben's fall is already an acknowledged fact when the movies start. Whatever happened was most assuredly his choice in some respect.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by FaxModem1 » 2020-02-03 04:00pm

Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-01 08:59am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-02-01 08:48am
Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-01 07:39am


I suspect you've also missed the point of Luke learning about the Force by the medium of the training drone as well. The point of the training was about trusting the Force instead of the senses he was used to, and when he makes the shot at the end it's because he does that. He was not unlocking a specific Force perk with his training points.

It's not whether he chooses to make the shot, it's whether he chooses to put his trust in the Force instead of his targeting computer.

And on Dagobah he can't lift his X-Wing because he doesn't trust the Force enough, because lifting a starfighter and a tiny pebble are the same thing to the Force.
Now you're getting around to that whole spiritual and emotional maturity thing I was talking about. It's not XP point and leveling up. That's what Rey does in the sequel trilogy, it's obtaining the relationship with the force by their self improvement of themselves and making a relationship with the force, as opposed to "easy button" RPG mechanics.
Which, of course, is why you were able to present that as your argument instead of complaining "Rey is naturally good at everything"....

Characters who are strong in the force are naturally good at things, even before they learn to use the Force on purpose. What, you think Watto sent Anakin to droid engineering college? That "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick" is a sign of emotional and spiritual maturity?

The path of a Jedi has never been about learning to Do Force Stuff, because opening yourself to the Force and putting your trust in it allows you to do things as diverse as making impossible torpedo shots and pick up lightsabres when you're hanging upside down from your ankles without anyone showing you how to do them or even suggesting that they are things you could do with it.

The path of a Jedi is learning when to use the Force and how to avoid the temptations of the Dark Side.
It's also about learning to channel it, achieving that spiritual connection, which is the part you handily decided to not include in my quote.
Rise of Skywalker is a mess, but a good training sequence, showing character growth, that a person is learning something, is better than 'that person is just naturally good at everything' and doesn't need to try. Rey's journey through the trilogy, until Rise of Skywalker, has been, "The force is just one large 'easy button' for me, why do the Jedi need years of study and meditation?" It makes it seem like the Jedi wasted years of study, contemplation, spirituality, and discipline, when all they needed was a weekend aping others to become masters at it. It wasted that feeling that a certain amount of spiritual and emotional maturity is needed to master the force. Instead, you could just have gone to a one-day seminar.
The Jedi, as presented, seem to be taking years of study along with the morality they learn. Rey doesn't need that, apparently. I'm not bothered by her learning of how to pilot a ship or her staff fighting, The whole idea of a force user having unnatural 'luck' and ease at ordinary tasks or whatever is fine. I am annoyed that she needed no spiritual grounding whatsoever to achieve the abilities she had. Rise of Skywalker at least showed her meditating and trying to achieve a sort of oneness and connection with the force, reaching an epiphany eventually, as opposed to, "Why bother meditating in a temple mastering myself when I can just copy what Kylo Ren's doing?"
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Jub » 2020-02-03 11:08pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-02-03 04:00pm
The Jedi, as presented, seem to be taking years of study along with the morality they learn. Rey doesn't need that, apparently. I'm not bothered by her learning of how to pilot a ship or her staff fighting, The whole idea of a force user having unnatural 'luck' and ease at ordinary tasks or whatever is fine. I am annoyed that she needed no spiritual grounding whatsoever to achieve the abilities she had. Rise of Skywalker at least showed her meditating and trying to achieve a sort of oneness and connection with the force, reaching an epiphany eventually, as opposed to, "Why bother meditating in a temple mastering myself when I can just copy what Kylo Ren's doing?"
I suspect the Jedi order probably made their training intentionally slow limiting the abilities that students were exposed to so that, for example, a 6-year-old padawan with great force potential couldn't start firing off Sith lightning when he was in a bad mood. There's also bound to be a lot of learning how to control your urge to trivialize your use of the force involved with the Jedi training. After all, it's bound to be hard to see something as a mystical sacred force when you commonly use it to levitate snacks into your mouth and scratch your ass. It all seems to fit with the idea of training new Jedi young and keeping them isolated in the temple method the order used.

In the above case, it might even be that learning new force abilities is as easy as seeing them and having the potential/connection to the force required to pull them off and do so without breaking previous ideas we've seen in the movies.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-02-03 11:58pm

Yeah. I've long felt that the evidence of the films indicates that its the philosophy, not the actual techniques, that takes a strong Force user a long time to learn (that and because the Jedi raised children from infancy to indoctrinate them, they also had to teach them all the other life skills, including literacy, piloting, etc.). It always seemed to me that the key to performing something had more to do with state of mind, which some people would get faster than others, but its ultimately more like Neo's "there is no spoon" from the Matrix- if you think you can do something with the Force, and you have the will to do it, you probably can, provided you have the right state of mind/emotions (calm and focussed for Light Side stuff, rage and hate for Dark Side stuff).

The one thing (aside from perhaps a few very rare and esoteric abilities, like Force ghosts and maybe battle meditation) that consistently seems to be reserved for higher-end, more experienced Force users is combat telekinesis, but its very common among the high-end, so I tend to use skill in this area as a bench mark for high-end ability. I share the view that that's likely because it takes an exceptional level of concentration to use the Force that precisely while also fending off an enemy's attacks- and its an ability Rey notably lacks in TFA and TLJ (see how Snoke literally toys with her during their confrontation). Its the clearest delineation, to my mind, in terms of technique, between a strong newbie and a master.

I'd also speculate that interpreting Force visions of the future is likely something that tends to come only with experience, as even Yoda seemed uncertain of his ability to see the future (and Palpatine got blind-sided on Endor).
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-02-07 03:16am

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Tee hee. :D

But yeah, it really makes no sense for Rey to bury the sabers there in-universe. Its just fan service.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Ralin » 2020-02-07 04:54am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-02-07 03:16am

But yeah, it really makes no sense for Rey to bury the sabers there in-universe. Its just fan service.
Or...you know. She was planning to live in the area for awhile and she decided that was safer than leaving them in a cabinet.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by LadyTevar » 2020-02-07 11:40am

Ralin wrote:
2020-02-07 04:54am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-02-07 03:16am

But yeah, it really makes no sense for Rey to bury the sabers there in-universe. Its just fan service.
Or...you know. She was planning to live in the area for awhile and she decided that was safer than leaving them in a cabinet.
That was what I took away from it. After all, she'd lived on a desert planet before, so it was more comfortable to be on a desert.
Like I couldn't ever live where there weren't mountains, it freaks me out to see the horizon just ... going on... flat... far as you can see. *shudder* Mountains keep me cradled in their hollers and I feel safer there.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-02-08 01:06am

Ralin wrote:
2020-02-07 04:54am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-02-07 03:16am

But yeah, it really makes no sense for Rey to bury the sabers there in-universe. Its just fan service.
Or...you know. She was planning to live in the area for awhile and she decided that was safer than leaving them in a cabinet.
I mean, maybe, but that begs the question of why Rey, with no personal attachment to Tatooine and all the galaxy to choose from, would decide to live there.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Ralin » 2020-02-08 01:09am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-02-08 01:06am

I mean, maybe, but that begs the question of why Rey, with no personal attachment to Tatooine and all the galaxy to choose from, would decide to live there.
Because she had come to see herself as the heir to Luke and Leia's legacy and she decided that she likes living in quiet desert places and based on both of those things restarting the old Skywalker farm was a good way to relax for awhile and reflect on all the shit that just happened.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vendetta » 2020-02-08 08:42am

Ralin wrote:
2020-02-08 01:09am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-02-08 01:06am

I mean, maybe, but that begs the question of why Rey, with no personal attachment to Tatooine and all the galaxy to choose from, would decide to live there.
Because she had come to see herself as the heir to Luke and Leia's legacy and she decided that she likes living in quiet desert places and based on both of those things restarting the old Skywalker farm was a good way to relax for awhile and reflect on all the shit that just happened.
Deciding not to go and hide in a desert was her whole arc in three movies.

Now of course J.J. doesn’t do character so it’s not unthinkable he would decide that for the ending but it’s less likely than him mawkishly leaning on nostalgia to recreate a famous shot from the first movie without bothering to make it an organic part of a story.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Ralin » 2020-02-08 10:09am

Vendetta wrote:
2020-02-08 08:42am

Deciding not to go and hide in a desert was her whole arc in three movies.
Who said anything about hiding? She literally told the first person who asked that her name was Skywalker.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vympel » 2020-02-09 01:46am

Ralin wrote:
2020-02-08 01:09am
Because she had come to see herself as the heir to Luke and Leia's legacy and she decided that she likes living in quiet desert places and based on both of those things restarting the old Skywalker farm was a good way to relax for awhile and reflect on all the shit that just happened.
No, the ending on Tatooine was total trash.The entire ending is basically aimed at trying to get the audience to feel something. It's not something Rey would ever think to do. This is a character who lived her entire life on Jakku, a verifiable shithole, in isolation and squalor - in TFA we saw her marvelling at the amount of green on Takodana, and in TLJ we saw her delighting in the simple pleasure of the rain of Ach'To. There's absolutely no evidence she likes or prefer deserts in the films, and even if she did, that doesn't answer any of the other myriad problems with it as an ending to the film.

The idea that it's at all appropriate for Rey - who when we met her was soon looking worriedly at an old lady cleaning parts - to finish the movie at a burnt out murder scene - basically all alone again - so she can hold a funeral for lightsabers* is just heinous writing, and is basically treating Rey as a Star Wars Fan rather than a real person: "well, I'm a character in the Star Wars saga, time to go honour the memory of the Skywalkers because its the end of the movie. It's what Luke, a ghost who I can still talk to, would've wanted. Oh look, there's where Luke drank blue milk in Episode 4!"

As a matter of symbolism, they finish Rey's story in this lifeless wasteland, at the site of a murder, surrounded by no one but ghosts and Poe's droid, after being interrogated by a constable of the Last Name Police. It's an actual downer, and it's thematically confused to boot.

Tatooine and looking at the twin suns represent Luke's hero's journey - the beginning of it - not Reys. It has absolutely nothing to do with her. She should've finished up where Trevorrow had her finishing up in his script - walking towards a new Jedi school on a green planet, under a blue sky and sunshine, surrounded by life and with her family:

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And don't even get me started on the baffling omission of Ben from the force ghosts she sees, because apparently Terrio and Abrams thought that would take away from the 'reunification of the twins' in death on Tatooine - the two grown-ass adult siblings who spent the majority of their adult lives together.

Leia's a married woman who had a child, and these geniuses thought that reuinting her with her only son - even in death - was not a priority. :banghead:

*The best dismissal of this ending I've heard is that TROS is about "holding a funeral for your toys in the burnt out ruins of someone else's childhood home." And that's not to forget that even Luke didn't give a shit about Tatooine after he left it, and Leia clearly didn't give two shits about it.

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It's not only pure fan service, it's a terrible misfire of fan service that plainly has no idea what it's trying to say. He didn't think about it at all, he just wanted to recreate an image from the movie the fans remembered, and he didn't care that that image meant a certain thing which does not at all apply to the character or situation at the end of this movie. This is plain from the interviews they've given where they've been asked about it. Terrio went so far to call Tatooine "a beautiful and peaceful place to bury two sacred objects".

That should tell anyone all they need to know about why this scene doesn't work. Only a Star Wars fan, in real life, would ever consider a certifiable shithole like Tatooine 'a beautiful and peaceful place'. Nevermind the idiocy of them trying to extract meaning and catharsis from the burial of Leia's lightsaber, the 'sacred object' they invented with only 20 minutes to go in the last movie of the saga.

This is something of a rant at this point but fuck it, to conclude: your ending is like the closing statement of your movie, and that is doubly true for when its the last movie of many. Consider Return of the Jedi. Harrison Ford derided it as a 'teddy bear picnic' (actual quote) but it's rich with symbolism and it just feels good - our protagonist seperates from the celebration to witness the miracle that he's saved his father - with Anakin and his mentors looking on with approval. And then Leia comes and leads him away, back to where the party and life is, so he can be with his friends and family.

TROS doesn't have a closing statement. It's just reverse engineered to elicit a feeling out of fans who have a reverence for this shithole planet that the characters we're following would never share, and worse, does an active disservice to our protagonist (Rey) for the (non-existent) benefit of supporting characters who are dead and whose story is over.

At the end of the day, it has nothing to say other than "congratulations on watching these movies, audience member. Here is a bunch of things that you remember from another, better movie."

A happy ending is pretty damn easy, but they fucked it up. TLJ has a happier, more hopeful ending than the actual end of the trilogy. It's a stunning bit of incompetence.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by FaxModem1 » 2020-02-09 09:11am

You know, another way to interpret the burial of the lightsabers is that of when in a crime movie, a character dumps a stash in an abandoned house that they know no one will investigate because of its reputation, and they can safely come get it later when no one else is looking. Like say, if the galaxy is really tired of force users making things difficult for the rest of the galaxy with their prophecies, magic powers, and such, and Rey needs to lay low for a while about the whole Jedi thing. Then a nosy neighbor comes by, and she acts as if she's just an inheritor of the house, and is just reclaiming it to assuage suspicion.

Yes, this makes Rey essentially a hood on the run, and hiding from the law, but it was the ending we were given.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Galvatron » 2020-02-09 04:46pm

Vympel wrote:
2020-02-09 01:46am
And don't even get me started on the baffling omission of Ben from the force ghosts she sees
It also cheated the Reylos.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vympel » 2020-02-09 08:10pm

Galvatron wrote:
2020-02-09 04:46pm
It also cheated the Reylos.
Honestly, it cheated everyone. It's the most obvious natural and actually earned ROTJ parallel they could've done, and they were instead so preoccupied with worshipping 'the twins' that they didn't do it. It's just so bad.
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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-02-14 01:39am

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Vendetta » 2020-02-17 08:34am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-02-09 09:11am
You know, another way to interpret the burial of the lightsabers is that of when in a crime movie, a character dumps a stash in an abandoned house that they know no one will investigate because of its reputation, and they can safely come get it later when no one else is looking. Like say, if the galaxy is really tired of force users making things difficult for the rest of the galaxy with their prophecies, magic powers, and such, and Rey needs to lay low for a while about the whole Jedi thing. Then a nosy neighbor comes by, and she acts as if she's just an inheritor of the house, and is just reclaiming it to assuage suspicion.

Yes, this makes Rey essentially a hood on the run, and hiding from the law, but it was the ending we were given.
On the other hand, they're just lightsabres.

Whilst various EU materials have made a big deal about making and having lightsabres, in the movies getting a new one is so uninteresting that it repeatedly happens offscreen between movies or scenes.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Ralin » 2020-02-17 09:23am

Vympel wrote:
2020-02-09 01:46am
No, the ending on Tatooine was total trash.The entire ending is basically aimed at trying to get the audience to feel something. It's not something Rey would ever think to do. This is a character who lived her entire life on Jakku, a verifiable shithole, in isolation and squalor - in TFA we saw her marvelling at the amount of green on Takodana, and in TLJ we saw her delighting in the simple pleasure of the rain of Ach'To. There's absolutely no evidence she likes or prefer deserts in the films, and even if she did, that doesn't answer any of the other myriad problems with it as an ending to the film.
As a matter of symbolism, they finish Rey's story in this lifeless wasteland, at the site of a murder, surrounded by no one but ghosts and Poe's droid, after being interrogated by a constable of the Last Name Police. It's an actual downer, and it's thematically confused to boot.
It makes perfect thematic sense. Rey grew up in what she saw as a horrible shithole. Part of her growing as a Jedi is coming to terms with where she's been and where she came from and starting to see...whatever the fuck is is people who like Louisiana see in that fucking shithole. It shows how she's reached a more balance state of mind instead of loathing desolate places like Jakku.

It also ties into the idea that she's been adopted as the heir to the Skywalker legacy. Vader hated sand. By showing that Rey likes sand she's rejecting that side of his legacy and bringing it full circle.

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Re: Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

Post by Lord Insanity » 2020-02-17 10:44pm

Its kind of sad when the comedy joke writers have a better grasp of continuity that the actual movie writers did.

When you compare the sequel trilogy to something like Cobra Kai where they clearly told a new story but still respected the continuity of the original Karate Kid movies it just illustrates how poorly planned the whole trilogy was.
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