What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-05 06:21am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:15am
Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
Because they love what he was, and its hard to admit that something we love could be imperfect.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-05 06:24am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 06:19am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:15am
Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
Because there's quite a gap between Luke failing to make a galaxy spanning organization that protects people and the New Republic, and being such a failure as both a Jedi Knight and a person that nepoticide looks like a good idea.
Because said nephew was seemingly about to become another Darth Vader. Presumably Luke, having met Vader before and seen his handiwork, might have decided that drastic action was needed, lest billions more die because space wizardry goes well with space fascism.
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That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
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Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 06:26am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:24am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 06:19am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:15am
Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
Because there's quite a gap between Luke failing to make a galaxy spanning organization that protects people and the New Republic, and being such a failure as both a Jedi Knight and a person that nepoticide looks like a good idea.
Because said nephew was seemingly about to become another Darth Vader. Presumably Luke, having met Vader before and seen his handiwork, might have decided that drastic action was needed, lest billions more die because space wizardry goes well with space fascism.
Well, there's a potential Star Wars movie for you. Star Wars: Minority Report, in which the Jedi go around chopping off the heads of anyone they've ever had a negative force vision of.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-05 06:29am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 06:26am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:24am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 06:19am


Because there's quite a gap between Luke failing to make a galaxy spanning organization that protects people and the New Republic, and being such a failure as both a Jedi Knight and a person that nepoticide looks like a good idea.
Because said nephew was seemingly about to become another Darth Vader. Presumably Luke, having met Vader before and seen his handiwork, might have decided that drastic action was needed, lest billions more die because space wizardry goes well with space fascism.
Well, there's a potential Star Wars movie for you. Star Wars: Minority Report, in which the Jedi go around chopping off the heads of anyone they've ever had a negative force vision of.
Give it a rest. No one is defending what Luke did* (which wasn't actually murder or even attempted murder- all evidence is that he never went through with it). The whole point is that he was wrong. We're simply saying its not hugely out of character for him to fuck up like that.

*Even though characters get praised for being HARD MEN making HARD CHOICES for doing worse, all the fucking time.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-05 06:43am

Imperial528 wrote:
2019-06-04 09:11pm
I'm pretty sure you're talking about the more colloquial use of the term stoicism, but I think the actual Stoic philosophy matches quite well with how Luke is at the end of his heroic journey. He listens to his emotions, but he does not let them control him. Whereas the Jedi of old view emotions as the trappings of the self, and in being truly selfless, make themselves unaffected by them. In this I think Luke achieved what the old Jedi Order failed to: he is immersed in the world, but does not allow the ups and downs of life to alter his moral core. I believe this is why he was able to save Anakin, as well. Many of Luke's actions in the OT earned the disapproval of Yoda and Obi-Wan, just as similar actions on Anakin's part did in the PT. But while Anakin failed because he tried to become selfless and couldn't, Luke found a way to follow the spirit of the Jedi Order's teachings and restore balance to the force, while still preserving his self without becoming selfish the way Anakin did.
Yup, that's what I'm referring to. People might take it up as a jedi must show no emotion whatsover, but that wasn't what Lucas was saying in Luke's journey.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-04 10:34pm
You're correct about Abrams' usual style from what I've seen of his work. But I will note that Luke was pretty much a typical action hero A New Hope. The greater depth came later.
Only to an extend. Luke saved the day because he finally learn to be too caught up in the physical world and be at peace with himself when he took the shot. He didn't get any real power boost other than making the impossible shot.

It is possible to understate the influence of Buddhism on Star Wars, but also to overstate it. I suspect attempting to force Star Wars' mythology to conform precisely to any real-world religion will probably lead to some warped interpretations of canon. But I agree insofar as one's state of mind/emotional state is depicted as being key to one's ability to use the Force, and how one uses it.
I'm not saying it conform precisely to a real-world religion, but it shares the fundamental worldview that's quite different from many classical "western" myths of heroes. How many heroes in the "western" sense valued the importance of mediation as a key part of their learning/growing process?

And I don't mean mediating to "unlock" more powers. I mean mediating to better oneself as an individual.

Yes, and I consider this one of the greatest moments in film for pretty much that reason, as I've said before. Its also a moment that I consider Luke's last stand in TLJ pretty much in keeping with.

I disagree that the films "have become far too concerned with force abilities". I think a lot of the fandom has, both because you have a generation of speculative fiction fans that was brought up on video games and tends depressingly often to think of character growth in terms of "unlocking levels" and using cheat codes*, and because Rey-bashers obsess over how she's "too powerful".

*I've particularly noticed this shit in Harry Potter fanfic, where all sorts of crap with no basis in canon to give wizards what amount to power levels, usually based on intricate rules the author made up/lifted from somewhere else so that Harry-In-Name-Only can game them in order to fulfill his role as the author's surrogate male power fantasy.
Except Rey's growth as a Jedi is more about her gaining force powers than anything to do with her growing her "inner self". She doesn't need to grow her inner self when she's been given so many powers by the force.

Rian Johnson never said any of that.

Rey was not great because she could lift some rocks. She could lift some rocks because she had chosen to embrace her role as a Jedi. As I noted in the other thread, Rey fails at everything she does in TLJ, until the moment when she is forced to confront her lack of a family identity, accepts it, and still chooses not to join Kylo. After that, she succeeds. That is probably not a coincidence, from a director as attentive to detail as Johnson is.

And to argue that the film was claiming that kid was a fully-fledged Jedi, or would necessarily become one, because he had power is just such preposterous reaching that its barely worth dignifying with a response. Its a quick visual way in a visual medium to show that he has the potential to become more than a slave. That's all.

If anything, the film's defining quality for a Jedi is hope. Fear and despair is the path to the Dark Side. Hope is the quality of the Light Side. Hell, Snoke even spells it out when he says that Rey's hope in the face of a hopeless fight is proof that she is a Jedi, but apparently that's still too subtle for the fan bashers to get. Probably because you don't want to get it.

And what exactly is her role as a "Jedi"? A Jedi is not a Jedi simply because they use their force abilities to defeat bad guys or live rocks to save people. The Jedi order is an order of peacekeepers, diplomats and etc making sure there's not need to use their "active" force abilities in the first place.

Can you see Rey being a diplomat as a Jedi? Everything "Jedi" about her is about her force abilities, and not about her development on a more personal level.


A movie trailer (which was probably put together by the Disney marketing department with little or no input from Abrams) shows flashy effects, just like every other Star Wars trailer! Clearly this proves that the director understands nothing about Star Wars or heroism!
The old trailers never focused too much attention of a Jedi's force abilities. Jedi do some force jumps, but they were never made out to be some awesome deal.

I see you missed Luke's trying to preemptively murder Kylo being a collosal mistake, Poe having to learn the lesson that the most aggressive course was not always the right one, and Rose and Poe reiterating the same lesson to Finn in the final battle.
No, I'm saying Luke as an enlightened individual should not be making those mistake in the first place. That's the point of enlightenment, especially if you draw upon Buddhist influence. What I against is the idea of having to tear down "enlightened" characters simply for the sake of having more drama. It's the same as having to tear down a peaceful galaxy because you needed more inter-galactic wars.

My issue is not with the execution of the story, but how the story was conceived in the first place. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of Luke's journey because you need endless wars and conflict in your setting.

You get it, you say... but you ignore its significance.

Luke wanting to kill Kylo, to act, as you say, aggressively rather than trusting in letting things play out, is portrayed as the worst mistake of his life, and something he regretted until the day he died. You say its "missing the point of Luke". I disagree. Luke isn't perfect. He never was. He made a mistake, a very believable mistake for a person to make, he paid for it, and he ultimately learned from it.

And again, note that, in the end, he defeats Kylo without the use of any physical violence whatsoever.

I am saying Luke should never be written to make such mistakes in the first place. What I disagreed with is the idea that you need to turn Luke into a failure as the core of your new films. The story should never have been about how "Luke failed", but about how Luke's successors find new and different ways to achieve Luke's enlightenment.

You're giving the PT more credit for a few lines in between scores of scenes of powerful Jedi kicking ass with fancy acrobatics (a fight style you've also said you prefer, IIRC), than you're giving TLJ for the entire thesis of the film.
The PT is about Jedi being forced into roles they were never meant to be. The dialogue scene constantly reminded the audience that Jedi are peace-keepers, not soldiers. They were awesome at kicking ass during the Clone Wars, but that was precisely why they failed. Jedi were marching out leading armies in battles before they got shot in the back by their soldiers.

You've missed the point of the PT if you think Jedi going around kicking-ass as super soldiers was meant to be a good depiction of what a Jedi ought to be.

The opening of the Prequels had Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan being sent as ambassador to resolve disputes, and it's only when they failed because of Sidious manipulation that they resort to force.

The Jedi are fighters as well as diplomats, but they are supposed to try the latter before the former. As Rey does (though it fails), and as Luke failed (and it is very much portrayed as a failure) to do in TLJ.
Jedi are diplomats first, fighters second. Rey's journey ought to be about how she learn those attributes of being a Jedi ( which was what Luke's journey was about). Instead, the writers focused on Rey's abilities and her fighting enemies again and again. Luke's impatience was constantly being punished, but nothing really negative happened to Rey.


Put it simply. If you go back to Buddhist beliefs, there's an idea that one could achieved an enlightened stage where they no longer fall prone to making very human mistakes. Making Luke fail is like writing a story about how Buddha failed his students once he achieved enlightenment. It provides excellent drama, but it missed the whole point of what the myth was trying to communicate in the first place.


The central focus should never have been about Luke in the first place. Making Luke a big central focus was a big mistake on the writer's part, and Lucas also shares some blame as well.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-05 07:04am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:15am
Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
There's different forms of failure, and there is also a question of whether it is a good idea to make Luke a failure just for the sake of having more drama. Drama for the sake of more drama is my issue with the SW franchise in the post ROTJ era, in the old EU and in the new films.

Drama for the sake of drama is fucking boring to me.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 08:07am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 06:29am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 06:26am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:24am


Because said nephew was seemingly about to become another Darth Vader. Presumably Luke, having met Vader before and seen his handiwork, might have decided that drastic action was needed, lest billions more die because space wizardry goes well with space fascism.
Well, there's a potential Star Wars movie for you. Star Wars: Minority Report, in which the Jedi go around chopping off the heads of anyone they've ever had a negative force vision of.
Give it a rest. No one is defending what Luke did* (which wasn't actually murder or even attempted murder- all evidence is that he never went through with it). The whole point is that he was wrong. We're simply saying its not hugely out of character for him to fuck up like that.

*Even though characters get praised for being HARD MEN making HARD CHOICES for doing worse, all the fucking time.
It is largely out of character for Luke, unless the past 30 years or so embittered Luke so badly that it gave him the lightsaber equivalent of an itchy trigger finger and/or PTSD.

Having Luke Skywalker having a natural impulse to murder his own nephew, or murder at all, is rather out of place for someone whose character is, as Ray has argued, and the previous films have portrayed him becoming, 'enlightened monk'.

Having him become this is akin to the UHF parody of a potential Gandhi sequel:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/4ega5Rcct2s[/youtube]

A man of peace becomes, even in the briefest of moments,
a man of violence, and his previous efforts are rendered meaningless. It ignores what kind of actual change would be required to become a Jedi, and why Luke doing this is bizarre.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-05 09:12am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 08:07am
It is largely out of character for Luke, unless the past 30 years or so embittered Luke so badly that it gave him the lightsaber equivalent of an itchy trigger finger and/or PTSD.

Having Luke Skywalker having a natural impulse to murder his own nephew, or murder at all, is rather out of place for someone whose character is, as Ray has argued, and the previous films have portrayed him becoming, 'enlightened monk'.

Having him become this is akin to the UHF parody of a potential Gandhi sequel:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/4ega5Rcct2s[/youtube]

A man of peace becomes, even in the briefest of moments,
a man of violence, and his previous efforts are rendered meaningless. It ignores what kind of actual change would be required to become a Jedi, and why Luke doing this is bizarre.
Exactly. I know what Disney was trying to do was to deconstruct the myths associated with the legendary heroes of the OT, but they could have done it differently. Part of the problem is trying to tell a story of the OT heroes eventual failure, rather than being focused on the new heroes rises to greatness. You could deconstruct Luke the Jedi as less of a badass warrior, and make him more of a diplomat Jedi. Show the limitations of his force powers, and that his strength as a Jedi lies far less in his force powers, and more in who he is as an "enlightened monk".

By delving so much attention into Luke, Han and Leia's failure as leaders, it overshadowed the new cast.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-05 05:15pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 06:29am
Give it a rest. No one is defending what Luke did* (which wasn't actually murder or even attempted murder- all evidence is that he never went through with it). The whole point is that he was wrong. We're simply saying its not hugely out of character for him to fuck up like that.

*Even though characters get praised for being HARD MEN making HARD CHOICES for doing worse, all the fucking time.
Indeed. Luke is prone to impulsiveness. In ESB when he runs off to Cloud City and tries to rescue everyone is a good example, and in ROTJ Vader goads him pretty easily into some crazed attack. So this follows on from that pretty well. Luke is a really well meaning guy, but not always the wisest.
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Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-06-07 01:03pm

I think what might bother people with Luke's decision to kill Ben in his sleep is that we don't see anything regarding it. Did Luke never try TALKING to Ben about the Dark Side? Did they have long arguments about Jedi dogma? Did Ben have some kind of tipping point like Anakin ganking the Tuscan Raiders? Was he preparing to unleash some kind of horrific Sith initiation the following day at Snoke's insistence, so Luke had to slip past the First Order and the Knights of Ren and try and stop more bloodshed? Who knows?

We are missing an awful lot of context for so important a decision, and the whole "I saw darkness in him" line from Luke feels fucking weak.

And honestly, the two sequel films do seem to suffer from this kind of lack of buildup. Like, they know they want Rey the ascendant new hero, they want Luke the embittered secluded monk, they want the First Order and Ben as these large, evil threats, but they seemed to not want to guide us from point A to point B to point C. Which is a shame, because I think the cast is awesome, and the concepts that I think they were reaching for were really worthy, but it feels like a half-rushed D&D campaign.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-07 10:04pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-06-07 01:03pm
I think what might bother people with Luke's decision to kill Ben in his sleep is that we don't see anything regarding it. Did Luke never try TALKING to Ben about the Dark Side? Did they have long arguments about Jedi dogma? Did Ben have some kind of tipping point like Anakin ganking the Tuscan Raiders? Was he preparing to unleash some kind of horrific Sith initiation the following day at Snoke's insistence, so Luke had to slip past the First Order and the Knights of Ren and try and stop more bloodshed? Who knows?

We are missing an awful lot of context for so important a decision, and the whole "I saw darkness in him" line from Luke feels fucking weak.

And honestly, the two sequel films do seem to suffer from this kind of lack of buildup. Like, they know they want Rey the ascendant new hero, they want Luke the embittered secluded monk, they want the First Order and Ben as these large, evil threats, but they seemed to not want to guide us from point A to point B to point C. Which is a shame, because I think the cast is awesome, and the concepts that I think they were reaching for were really worthy, but it feels like a half-rushed D&D campaign.
I haven't watched Resistance (I don't think any channel I have plays it), so I don't know if it fits the bill at all, but I think increasingly that a series between the trilogies fleshing out some of the details would do the ST's reputation a world of good (just as The Clone Wars did for the PT).
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-09 07:04am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 05:15pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 06:29am
Give it a rest. No one is defending what Luke did* (which wasn't actually murder or even attempted murder- all evidence is that he never went through with it). The whole point is that he was wrong. We're simply saying its not hugely out of character for him to fuck up like that.

*Even though characters get praised for being HARD MEN making HARD CHOICES for doing worse, all the fucking time.
Indeed. Luke is prone to impulsiveness. In ESB when he runs off to Cloud City and tries to rescue everyone is a good example, and in ROTJ Vader goads him pretty easily into some crazed attack. So this follows on from that pretty well. Luke is a really well meaning guy, but not always the wisest.
I think the big difference is that with Vader, in ESB, he was actually physically torturing Luke's friends to get Luke's attention, and probably would have at least executed one of them to get Luke's attention if he could. In ROTJ, he was openly declaring he was going to turn Leia after he killed Luke.

In TLA, Ben.....had a nasty dream. As Neogoomba points out, we don't even know if Luke talked to him about this, or if his first impulse was to kill him for having disturbing dreams.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-09 12:33pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-09 07:04am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 05:15pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 06:29am
Give it a rest. No one is defending what Luke did* (which wasn't actually murder or even attempted murder- all evidence is that he never went through with it). The whole point is that he was wrong. We're simply saying its not hugely out of character for him to fuck up like that.

*Even though characters get praised for being HARD MEN making HARD CHOICES for doing worse, all the fucking time.
Indeed. Luke is prone to impulsiveness. In ESB when he runs off to Cloud City and tries to rescue everyone is a good example, and in ROTJ Vader goads him pretty easily into some crazed attack. So this follows on from that pretty well. Luke is a really well meaning guy, but not always the wisest.
I think the big difference is that with Vader, in ESB, he was actually physically torturing Luke's friends to get Luke's attention, and probably would have at least executed one of them to get Luke's attention if he could. In ROTJ, he was openly declaring he was going to turn Leia after he killed Luke.

In TLA, Ben.....had a nasty dream. As Neogoomba points out, we don't even know if Luke talked to him about this, or if his first impulse was to kill him for having disturbing dreams.
Luke mentions to Rey seeing that Kylo would destroy them, and that he saw that Snoke had already turned him. The dialogue is a bit ambiguous, but you could take that as Luke getting a vision of the future (the Dark Side tempting you with visions of what you fear, leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy, is established by highest-level canon precedent, namely Anakin's visions of Padme's death), and Luke seeing that Kylo had been consorting with Snoke. Which is a lot more than just a nasty dream.

And, as discussed before, Luke's first impulse wasn't to kill Ben when he sensed darkness in him (unless you assert Luke was lying, in which case burden of proof is on you). It was to investigate further by looking into his mind (and even that might not have been his first action, as the dialogue suggests he had been sensing darkness in Ben for a while). It was only after he did that, and saw that it was much worse than he had realized, that he had his moment of panic.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals Sherman and Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless - the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with - but after all their faces are set Zion-wards."- Lincoln on radical Abolitionists.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-09 05:39pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-09 12:33pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-09 07:04am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 05:15pm


Indeed. Luke is prone to impulsiveness. In ESB when he runs off to Cloud City and tries to rescue everyone is a good example, and in ROTJ Vader goads him pretty easily into some crazed attack. So this follows on from that pretty well. Luke is a really well meaning guy, but not always the wisest.
I think the big difference is that with Vader, in ESB, he was actually physically torturing Luke's friends to get Luke's attention, and probably would have at least executed one of them to get Luke's attention if he could. In ROTJ, he was openly declaring he was going to turn Leia after he killed Luke.

In TLA, Ben.....had a nasty dream. As Neogoomba points out, we don't even know if Luke talked to him about this, or if his first impulse was to kill him for having disturbing dreams.
Luke mentions to Rey seeing that Kylo would destroy them, and that he saw that Snoke had already turned him. The dialogue is a bit ambiguous, but you could take that as Luke getting a vision of the future (the Dark Side tempting you with visions of what you fear, leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy, is established by highest-level canon precedent, namely Anakin's visions of Padme's death), and Luke seeing that Kylo had been consorting with Snoke. Which is a lot more than just a nasty dream.

And, as discussed before, Luke's first impulse wasn't to kill Ben when he sensed darkness in him (unless you assert Luke was lying, in which case burden of proof is on you). It was to investigate further by looking into his mind (and even that might not have been his first action, as the dialogue suggests he had been sensing darkness in Ben for a while). It was only after he did that, and saw that it was much worse than he had realized, that he had his moment of panic.
No, I'm saying Luke's language is so vague that we don't know if he investigated Ben for months upon seeing darkness in him, or if it was a rash, one night investigation that he made his conclusion. And we still have gone from character who rushes in to save others from a defined threat to murdering someone for what they could turn into based off of their thoughts/visions of the future. We get no sense that Luke tried to talk to him, as he did, in-canon, with Del Meeko. His father killed who knows how many people, and he tried to talk him down(eventually succeeding). We don't see why, in the intervening decades, Luke is so hardened that he has this moment of weakness at all. It's not second nature to him, trying to reach out is. Unless you can prove that Ben was already reached out to.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-09 09:25pm

Remember, Luke's journey in the OT is of becoming a monk seeking Enlightenment through the force. Unless there's a lot of corruption in his reasons for doing so, his finding of Enlightenment should change his personality for the better, especially if he's focused decades of his life to doing so. Yoda, for the most part, knocked a lot of that hero and adventure seeking out of him in ESB.

The only way that The Last Jedi makes sense with Luke's character is if he was constantly being forced into violence to the point that it became second nature for him, as opposed to spending long bouts of time investigating the mysteries of the force and the universe while teaching people how to do the same.

It's why the character step seems too far without further context. It's why Luke's journey in the ST doesn't ring true.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-10 07:38am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-09 09:25pm
Remember, Luke's journey in the OT is of becoming a monk seeking Enlightenment through the force. Unless there's a lot of corruption in his reasons for doing so, his finding of Enlightenment should change his personality for the better, especially if he's focused decades of his life to doing so. Yoda, for the most part, knocked a lot of that hero and adventure seeking out of him in ESB.

The only way that The Last Jedi makes sense with Luke's character is if he was constantly being forced into violence to the point that it became second nature for him, as opposed to spending long bouts of time investigating the mysteries of the force and the universe while teaching people how to do the same.

It's why the character step seems too far without further context. It's why Luke's journey in the ST doesn't ring true.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-12 05:23am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-09 07:04am
I think the big difference is that with Vader, in ESB, he was actually physically torturing Luke's friends to get Luke's attention, and probably would have at least executed one of them to get Luke's attention if he could. In ROTJ, he was openly declaring he was going to turn Leia after he killed Luke.

In TLA, Ben.....had a nasty dream. As Neogoomba points out, we don't even know if Luke talked to him about this, or if his first impulse was to kill him for having disturbing dreams.
Uh, did you see the film?

"Did you create Kylo Ren? Tell me the truth."
"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."


There's way more there than a "nasty dream." Luke saw it coming, and then had an impulsive moment later on, in which he relented pretty quickly.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by tezunegari » 2019-06-12 01:22pm

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-12 05:23am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-09 07:04am
I think the big difference is that with Vader, in ESB, he was actually physically torturing Luke's friends to get Luke's attention, and probably would have at least executed one of them to get Luke's attention if he could. In ROTJ, he was openly declaring he was going to turn Leia after he killed Luke.

In TLA, Ben.....had a nasty dream. As Neogoomba points out, we don't even know if Luke talked to him about this, or if his first impulse was to kill him for having disturbing dreams.
Uh, did you see the film?

"Did you create Kylo Ren? Tell me the truth."
"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."


There's way more there than a "nasty dream." Luke saw it coming, and then had an impulsive moment later on, in which he relented pretty quickly.
If he saw it coming, can it be still called an impulsive moment?
Or is the impulsive moment his hesitation?
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-06-12 01:55pm

Yeah, an impulsive moment would have been Luke taking his lightsaber to Ben for real during a practice exercise. Instead Luke had his vision (which he should have known could have all been bullshit based on what Yoda taught him), waited until Ben was sleeping, stole into his hut, and prepared to execute him. It seems far more like an attempted premeditated murder.

Which would have been totally understandable, if not supremely lamentable, if Luke had mentioned how he had tried and failed to steer Ben back into the light. But instead he senses Ben might one day do bad shit and goes to kill him until his conscience wakes the fuck up and stops him. No mention of the struggle to save Ben, only that he had given up on him.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-12 08:49pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-06-12 01:55pm
Yeah, an impulsive moment would have been Luke taking his lightsaber to Ben for real during a practice exercise. Instead Luke had his vision (which he should have known could have all been bullshit based on what Yoda taught him), waited until Ben was sleeping, stole into his hut, and prepared to execute him. It seems far more like an attempted premeditated murder.
Not the sequence of events. Luke did not see that vision, then enter the hut planning to kill Ben. Both you and FaxModem have tried to push that sequence of events, and its false. I don't know if you're being deliberately dishonest, or simply saw it somewhere else and assumed it to be true because it fit your preconceptions, but its bullshit.

The sequence, according to Luke's own account, is as follows:

-Gets vague sense of darkness in Ben sometimes during training.
-Goes to the hut while Ben is sleeping to examine him through the Force.
-Senses that its much worse than he realized, that Ben has already been turned by Snoke, with implied Force vision of the future/a possible future where Ben goes on a rampage.
-Draws and ignites his saber, thinking that he can prevent it by preemptively killing Ben.
-Thinks better of it, but by then Ben has already woken up and its too late.
-Ben Force-pulls his saber, there's a brief fight, Ben Force pushes him through a wall. Luke is knocked out, while Ben murders his other students.

Unless Luke is lying (in which case the burden of proof is on you to show it), Luke did not go to the hut with the plan or intent of murdering Ben.
Which would have been totally understandable, if not supremely lamentable, if Luke had mentioned how he had tried and failed to steer Ben back into the light. But instead he senses Ben might one day do bad shit and goes to kill him until his conscience wakes the fuck up and stops him. No mention of the struggle to save Ben, only that he had given up on him.
Again, there is no evidence that he made a premeditated decision to kill Ben before going to the hut. He was concerned, investigated before taking action, was shocked when it turned out to be way worse than he though, had a momentary aggressive impulse, thought better of it, and spent the rest of his life regretting it as his greatest mistake.

You know, its telling how much the ST/TLJ bashers have to warp or outright ignore canon to prop up their grievances.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Elfdart » 2019-06-12 10:16pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 06:19am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:15am
Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
Because there's quite a gap between Luke failing to make a galaxy spanning organization that protects people and the New Republic, and being such a failure as both a Jedi Knight and a person that nepoticide looks like a good idea.
I mean, Luke never tried to kill Vader in his sleep -and made it a point not to kill him when he was at Luke's mercy. The whole idea that he would sneak up and try to stab his sister's son to death while he was in bed is about as stupid, farfetched and quite frankly disturbing as making C3PO a serial killer.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-12 10:21pm

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-12 05:23am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-09 07:04am
I think the big difference is that with Vader, in ESB, he was actually physically torturing Luke's friends to get Luke's attention, and probably would have at least executed one of them to get Luke's attention if he could. In ROTJ, he was openly declaring he was going to turn Leia after he killed Luke.

In TLA, Ben.....had a nasty dream. As Neogoomba points out, we don't even know if Luke talked to him about this, or if his first impulse was to kill him for having disturbing dreams.
Uh, did you see the film?

"Did you create Kylo Ren? Tell me the truth."
"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."


There's way more there than a "nasty dream." Luke saw it coming, and then had an impulsive moment later on, in which he relented pretty quickly.
Here's the problem with that. Either, A. Luke decided to check up on his nephew and didnt just contemplate it in his mind, but did the physical action of pulling out his lightsaber, decided killing his nephew in his sleep was his best plan of action, waking up his nephew, or B. he sensed the darkness before then, and decided to go to Ben's hut to murder him, which means he straight up decided to murder him, with premeditated thought behind it. This is, as pointed out earlier in the thread, akin to a cop not liking what he sees in his nephew's diary after the kid makes some comments at training, and without talking to him about it, decides to kill him in his sleep, draws out his pistol, and chambers a round, pointing it at the kid.

That's a few steps beyond impulsive. The fact that you and TRR are ignoring how out of character this is for Luke shows how out of step you are. In real life, I'm sure someone has cut you off in traffic, or shoved you, maybe even thrown a punch. Do you immediately go for your Glock? Or do you try and act as an adult?

Now, are either of you spending decades of your life learning peace, quiet contemplation, pondering mysteries and learning self control, and while also acting as a teacher for those in similar positions that you've been in, like Luke supposedly was? I'm trying to imagine the last time I had a meditation teacher bring out a knife because he didn't like a student's facial expression while in meditation. If you can't imagine the same thing happening, then you need to deal with how badly written The Ladt Jedi is.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-12 08:49pm
NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-06-12 01:55pm
Yeah, an impulsive moment would have been Luke taking his lightsaber to Ben for real during a practice exercise. Instead Luke had his vision (which he should have known could have all been bullshit based on what Yoda taught him), waited until Ben was sleeping, stole into his hut, and prepared to execute him. It seems far more like an attempted premeditated murder.
Not the sequence of events. Luke did not see that vision, then enter the hut planning to kill Ben. Both you and FaxModem have tried to push that sequence of events, and its false. I don't know if you're being deliberately dishonest, or simply saw it somewhere else and assumed it to be true because it fit your preconceptions, but its bullshit.

The sequence, according to Luke's own account, is as follows:

-Gets vague sense of darkness in Ben sometimes during training.
-Goes to the hut while Ben is sleeping to examine him through the Force.
-Senses that its much worse than he realized, that Ben has already been turned by Snoke, with implied Force vision of the future/a possible future where Ben goes on a rampage.
-Draws and ignites his saber, thinking that he can prevent it by preemptively killing Ben.
-Thinks better of it, but by then Ben has already woken up and its too late.
-Ben Force-pulls his saber, there's a brief fight, Ben Force pushes him through a wall. Luke is knocked out, while Ben murders his other students.

Unless Luke is lying (in which case the burden of proof is on you to show it), Luke did not go to the hut with the plan or intent of murdering Ben.
Which would have been totally understandable, if not supremely lamentable, if Luke had mentioned how he had tried and failed to steer Ben back into the light. But instead he senses Ben might one day do bad shit and goes to kill him until his conscience wakes the fuck up and stops him. No mention of the struggle to save Ben, only that he had given up on him.
Again, there is no evidence that he made a premeditated decision to kill Ben before going to the hut. He was concerned, investigated before taking action, was shocked when it turned out to be way worse than he though, had a momentary aggressive impulse, thought better of it, and spent the rest of his life regretting it as his greatest mistake.

You know, its telling how much the ST/TLJ bashers have to warp or outright ignore canon to prop up their grievances.
You're not getting this. Luke didn't just have an immediate thought about it after the 'horrible discovery ', he pulled out and ignited his fucking lightsaber. I don't get why this point is sailing over your head. Why did he pull out the lightsaber at all? Why didn't he think about it, and then meditate on it? Why is Luke's natural impulse to go for murder? Why is he so gung ho about it? Does he murder several sleeping people so that it's second nature by now?

Thus is why I'm bringing up Luke's possible PTSD, which you ignore, because I guess you don't consider that it would have to be the only explanation that makes sense, as it doesn't fit the wise teacher monk mold Luke was becoming.

Luke either is used to murdering people with his lightsaber that its natural habit, or this scene is out of character for him.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-12 10:29pm

Elfdart wrote:
2019-06-12 10:16pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 06:19am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:15am
Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
Because there's quite a gap between Luke failing to make a galaxy spanning organization that protects people and the New Republic, and being such a failure as both a Jedi Knight and a person that nepoticide looks like a good idea.
I mean, Luke never tried to kill Vader in his sleep -and made it a point not to kill him when he was at Luke's mercy. The whole idea that he would sneak up and try to stab his sister's son to death while he was in bed is about as stupid, farfetched and quite frankly disturbing as making C3PO a serial killer.
Yes, that's my main problem. Luke not being God-Emperor of the galaxy, sure. But to have sunken so low that bringing out a weapon to kill his nephew on impulse? That's scarred veteran PTSD there. And there really isn't a lot of building up of how Luke went through so much shit that he waves his lightsaber at anyone who looks at him funny like he's Rambo at the police station in First Blood.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-13 02:56am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-12 10:21pm
Here's the problem with that. Either, A. Luke decided to check up on his nephew and didnt just contemplate it in his mind, but did the physical action of pulling out his lightsaber, decided killing his nephew in his sleep was his best plan of action, waking up his nephew, or B. he sensed the darkness before then, and decided to go to Ben's hut to murder him, which means he straight up decided to murder him, with premeditated thought behind it. This is, as pointed out earlier in the thread, akin to a cop not liking what he sees in his nephew's diary after the kid makes some comments at training, and without talking to him about it, decides to kill him in his sleep, draws out his pistol, and chambers a round, pointing it at the kid.
Again, the idea that Luke went to the hut intending in advance to kill Ben is 100% completely baseless. It has not a single scrap of canon evidence for it, and quite a bit against it. Pretending its an either/or, as though either option is equally credible or has some basis, when you have provided zero evidence for that, is disingenuous, and I think you know it.

I've pointed out how baseless this is, repeatedly and in detail. I have asked for evidence, repeatedly. You have kept evading that and just saying "well maybe Luke planned to preemptively murder him". Yeah, and maybe the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is sitting in my backyard wearing a tutu, but I have absolutely no evidence of that fact, and if I advanced it as a serious argument, I'd rightly be thought a lunatic. If you persist in pursuing this completely baseless argument despite my having demonstrated repeatedly that it is baseless, and given that I do not believe that you are an imbecile, I can regretfully only conclude that you are being dishonest.
That's a few steps beyond impulsive. The fact that you and TRR are ignoring how out of character this is for Luke shows how out of step you are. In real life, I'm sure someone has cut you off in traffic, or shoved you, maybe even thrown a punch. Do you immediately go for your Glock? Or do you try and act as an adult?
No, of course not, and again, no one is saying Luke was right, but the situations are not remotely comparable. I am not a psychic capable of reading minds and seeing the future, and some asshole throwing a punch does not have the power to throw galactic civilization into chaos, which a high-end Force user potentially does.
Now, are either of you spending decades of your life learning peace, quiet contemplation, pondering mysteries and learning self control, and while also acting as a teacher for those in similar positions that you've been in, like Luke supposedly was? I'm trying to imagine the last time I had a meditation teacher bring out a knife because he didn't like a student's facial expression while in meditation. If you can't imagine the same thing happening, then you need to deal with how badly written The Ladt Jedi is.
Right, because a guy who can have visions of the future having a vision that someone is about to become a mass murderer is totally equivalent to not liking their facial expression. :roll:

These are all ridiculous false analogies, and I won't dignify them with further response. No one is saying you have to personally like the film, but please don't misrepresent canon so you can "prove" your personal dislikes are objectively bad. It just makes your argument look weak.
You're not getting this. Luke didn't just have an immediate thought about it after the 'horrible discovery ', he pulled out and ignited his fucking lightsaber. I don't get why this point is sailing over your head. Why did he pull out the lightsaber at all? Why didn't he think about it, and then meditate on it? Why is Luke's natural impulse to go for murder? Why is he so gung ho about it? Does he murder several sleeping people so that it's second nature by now?
I know exactly what Luke did. As to why he didn't think about it... well, he did. He ultimately reconsidered and didn't strike Ben dead. Which to me lends credence to the idea that it was not premeditated, cold-blooded attempted murder. If Luke had thought it out, and truly believed it was necessary, do you think he would have faltered in the moment of action? Luke is no strange to violence. He's not a man to back down easily from a course of action once he believes that its right.

Do you really think he couldn't have killed Ben if that had been his intent?

And no, I don't think his natural impulse is murder. But I do think that those who have been tempted once by the Dark Side can be tempted again. Luke showed on Endor that he is capable of rash violence toward a member of his family when the people he loves are in danger. He stopped himself then, just like he did here, but just because you resist once doesn't mean the temptation will go away, any more than taking heroin once without getting addicted means its safe for you to have heroin in the future.
Thus is why I'm bringing up Luke's possible PTSD, which you ignore, because I guess you don't consider that it would have to be the only explanation that makes sense, as it doesn't fit the wise teacher monk mold Luke was becoming.
On the contrary, I think its a reasonably plausible explanation, or at least a partial explanation. Luke has experienced first hand what a powerful Dark Sider can do. Of course that is going to have an effect on his state of mind, especially in this situation.
Luke either is used to murdering people with his lightsaber that its natural habit, or this scene is out of character for him.
This is ridiculous. A man must be in the habit of routinely murdering people to be ever tempted toward preemptive violence under any circumstances?
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-06-13 07:56am

Elfdart wrote:
2019-06-12 10:16pm
I mean, Luke never tried to kill Vader in his sleep -and made it a point not to kill him when he was at Luke's mercy. The whole idea that he would sneak up and try to stab his sister's son to death while he was in bed is about as stupid, farfetched and quite frankly disturbing as making C3PO a serial killer.
Exactly
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