Star Wars Shields

[fractalsponge1]

Who says that's how they do it? For all we know the fighters use their own shields to cancel out the capital ship's ones to pass through. Have fun trying to put shield generators on something the size of a proton torpedo

Is that how they're supposed to work in nu-EU? Though the shield generator component of a droideka is probably small enough to fit on a decent size missile that can be carried by SW starfighters Actis were unshielded, and they figure in the prominent "boarding through shields" example bandied about.

But this is not really addressing my point - if small craft penetrate shields, why not just make the small craft the missile/use mass missile spam?

[Batman]

If memory serves the Actis being unshielded (or even called that) is Legends
And the missiles Wars fighters carry are tiny. The proton torpedoes used in the movies are about the size of a thermos bottle

[texanmarauder]

ray shields were established in the SWTCW episode "the box" to be lethal to almost any biological organism with one exception. as for particle shields and concussion shields, there is no mention of concussion shields in current canon at all with the exception of the ICS, same with particle shields. there is a mention of thermal shields in SWTCW "cat and mouse" that deflected (proton?) torpedoes. in any case, almost every cap ship shield seen has been vulnerable to projectiles like torpedoes. the only 2 exceptions that I can think of is admiral trench's ship and the droid control ship in TPM.

If capital ships were simply that vulnerable to torpedoes, why would anyone ever use turbolasers?

The vulnerability is not to missiles directly, it is to starfighters that can bypass the primary outer shields.

if a Starfighter can go through the shields, whats going to stop torpedoes? for that matter, the shields of the devastator apparently were able to stop a small rebel ship from doing damage when it inadvertently rammed the devastators hull during R1. yet the Avengers shields couldn't stop the falcon from landing on its hull. its one of the bigger inconsistencies. if what you are suggesting is true, then fighters flying under their shields could just torpedo the bridge and be done with it. or just ram like green leader in the battle of endor. yet, the novels all mention the shields stopping torpedoes fired from fighters. it makes no sense.

[Adam Reynolds]

if a Starfighter can go through the shields, whats going to stop torpedoes? for that matter, the shields of the devastator apparently were able to stop a small rebel ship from doing damage when it inadvertently rammed the devastators hull during R1. yet the Avengers shields couldn't stop the falcon from landing on its hull. its one of the bigger inconsistencies. if what you are suggesting is true, then fighters flying under their shields could just torpedo the bridge and be done with it. or just ram like green leader in the battle of endor. yet, the novels all mention the shields stopping torpedoes fired from fighters. it makes no sense.

The books aren't canon. The problem is that the films and Clone Wars are rather consistent in showing fighters successfully attacking capital ships without support and doing disproportionate damage, as well as the Millenium Falcon landing on one. This needs an explanation. Probably the best is that fighters can successfully bypass the primary outer shield in some fashion.

The exact mechanism is likely a speed discriminator, matching the issue with theater shields(as implied in TPM and directly stated in Clone Wars). While that also requires ground contact, as Batman points out the same effect could be achieved with a fighter's shields fooling the capital ship shields into treating the starfighter as part of the shield system itself. We see that this seems to be the case against the Death Star, in which Rebel fighters both slow down(hence the acceleration to attack speed immediately after passing through it) and angle their deflector shields to double front while passing through it.

Given the heavy armor used by star destroyers, it is likely that they rely on their outer shields against star destroyers and their armor against starfighters. They also likely have smaller less permeable shields around things like the bridge and hanger bays, which indicates why Executor's bridge crew was so concerned about their lack of bridge shields as well as why Anakin's attack against Malevolence needed a certain number of attacking fighters.

Both the attack on Executor and the attack on Malvolence show the problem with this tactic, that virtually all fighters that attempt an attack in this fashion will be slaughtered. Against Executor, only an A-wing pilot in an uncontrollable high speed dive was able to survive his run against the now unshielded bridge, given that he was already under the outer shield. Against Malvolence Anakin was literally the only pilot that could survive the attack, and he alone could never penetrate the bridge shields.

While there is a notable counterexample in that Naboo's starfighters fail to use this tactic, other than Anakin doing it by accident, that is easily explained by the fact that Naboo's fighter corps was not trained or experienced at the level of either clones or Rebel Alliance pilots. The fact that such a tactic is possible nicely explains both why Padme expected it to work, as well as why Qui-Gon expected the less well trained pilots to be incapable of pulling it off.

I disagreed with this theory when I first saw it too, but it really fits the on screen evidence far better than anything else. In terms of the question of why capital ships do this, it is likely a question of efficiency, that it is more efficient to save energy by leaving this flaw in place than it would be to patch it. Immunity from starfighters comes at the cost of a greater vulnerability to enemy turbolasers.



For a couple other points about the nature of fighters vs capital ships.

On the issue of fighters vs missiles and efficiency, it is likely that missiles with the delta-V to make successful attacks at range are too expensive to just throw away. While fighters that make such attacks are also somewhat expendable, more of them survive than torpedoes. It is the same problem with torchship missiles. While starfighters never really make sense from a realism standpoint,

In terms of the military tradeoff of capital ships vs fighters, it actually appears to be the case that starfighters are a superior investment overall. The Rebel Alliance devotes a much larger percentage of their military budget to starfighters, and generally seems to do better in combat than the capital ship focused Empire. The Resistance similarly also lacks capital ships.

[Imperial528]

In terms of the military tradeoff of capital ships vs fighters, it actually appears to be the case that starfighters are a superior investment overall. The Rebel Alliance devotes a much larger percentage of their military budget to starfighters, and generally seems to do better in combat than the capital ship focused Empire. The Resistance similarly also lacks capital ships.

I would put this down to the fact that the Rebels and Resistance are fighting a guerrilla war, and have no interest in directly invading a planet or large installations, thus they don't need large capital ships except as force multipliers for all-in fights.

The main capabilities a capital warship brings to the table aren't needed by the Rebels or the Resistance in most of their missions, while starfighters are downright necessary. It makes sense then that most of their capital ships exist only in support of the starfighters, as we see in the few uses of Rebel and Resistance capital ships in the films.

Whereas the Empire needs to be able to put down rebellions and potentially siege well defended and heavily fortified worlds, and you can't do that with just starfighters without taking massive losses. Or at all if the world is shielded.

The way I see it, if you have the capability to maintain a capital fleet, it's a far better investment overall. But neither the Rebels nor the Resistance have that capability like the Empire or First Order do, and their mission profiles are more suited to fighters anyway, so a capital ship fleet is both beyond their means and a bad use of limited resources.

[Patroklos]

yet the Avengers shields couldn't stop the falcon from landing on its hull.

The logical conclusion to draw from this is that the ship didn't have its aft shields up. Which makes a lot of sense if you are in pursuit of a single ship that you obviously thought was going to stay in your forward arcs. You know, given the odds of charging a star destroyer...

Also, if you are chasing down a surprisingly fast freighter dumping your reactor energy into engines makes a lot more sense than powering an aft shield you have no reason to believe is defending you from anything.

Bonus also: Though we don't see any on screen at that time its quite possible both ships are still inside the danger zone of the asteroid field. If you are hurtling at max velocity in such an environment you don't really need to worry about a rock hitting your butt. You don, however, need to be even more concerned about one hitting you in the face. Double front baby!

[fractalsponge1]

If memory serves the Actis being unshielded (or even called that) is Legends
And the missiles Wars fighters carry are tiny. The proton torpedoes used in the movies are about the size of a thermos bottle

Ok, let me rephrase again Strap 50 of those thermos bottles onto a droid fighter with a small shield generator to do the shield pierce trick, if it's real. Use the "fighter" as a large high end missile to component-kill the shit out of a large warship. Profit. If this is straightforward, why bother with capitals?

And before someone pipes up with this again, carrying troops is not a good reason to build a fucking Executor with 200+ teraton/s firepower if a fighter can go in and wreck the thing without other capitals taking down the shields for it. Yeah, say Crynyd was an outlier. But a 1:100 or 1:1000 chance is no problem if for the cost of Executor you could take a million warshots in expendable "warheads".

If a fighter can take down a capital that easily, then sieges aren't a good reason either, because the besieged world can launch enormous "shield-piercing" fighter swarms to clear away the besiegers.

If fighters can pierce shields directly, fucking hell then the cost benefit ratio is so enormously in favor of fighter swarms that anyone with a brain would rather build a million droid fighters and a cheap-ass near-civilian hangar ship rather than a star destroyer.

Screen evidence - every time a fighter looks like it's going through shields, capitals are involved, except DS1, which I freely admit, but I think it's easier to explain that away than explaining how capitals are worth the risk and investment if fighters can pierce their defenses.

[Imperial528]

Wasn't the thing with the DS1 that they had to enter in the equatorial trench where there were gaps in the particle shielding?

[texanmarauder]

The books aren't canon. The problem is that the films and Clone Wars are rather consistent in showing fighters successfully attacking capital ships without support and doing disproportionate damage, as well as the Millenium Falcon landing on one. This needs an explanation. Probably the best is that fighters can successfully bypass the primary outer shield in some fashion.

true, the novels are non canon now. and the movies and clone wars do show fighters doing disproportionate damage. but the clone wars also shows cap ship weapons hitting the shields of venators at the hull. for that matter, there is also an instance where the ventral shields and hull of a venator withstanding the full firepower of at least 5 CIS battleships at once without getting blown to hell. IMO shields and armor that can withstand that aren't gonna be threatened by fighter weapons. it would be like hulling a battleship with a BB gun.

The exact mechanism is likely a speed discriminator, matching the issue with theater shields(as implied in TPM and directly stated in Clone Wars). While that also requires ground contact, as Batman points out the same effect could be achieved with a fighter's shields fooling the capital ship shields into treating the starfighter as part of the shield system itself. We see that this seems to be the case against the Death Star, in which Rebel fighters both slow down(hence the acceleration to attack speed immediately after passing through it) and angle their deflector shields to double front while passing through it.

the death star had a magnetic field, not a shield. that was clearly stated. IIRC, the clone wars were talking about the droideka shields, which were basically just one way ray shields. which is why droid poppers could roll through. big difference between that shield and one used by cap ships. plus, there seems to be a big difference between energy shields (theater shields) and standard ray shields since the clone wars episode "the box" establishes that ray shields are lethal to biological organisms.

Given the heavy armor used by star destroyers, it is likely that they rely on their outer shields against star destroyers and their armor against starfighters. They also likely have smaller less permeable shields around things like the bridge and hanger bays, which indicates why Executor's bridge crew was so concerned about their lack of bridge shields as well as why Anakin's attack against Malevolence needed a certain number of attacking fighters.

that wouldn't explain how the falcon was able to land on the command tower.

While there is a notable counterexample in that Naboo's starfighters fail to use this tactic, other than Anakin doing it by accident, that is easily explained by the fact that Naboo's fighter corps was not trained or experienced at the level of either clones or Rebel Alliance pilots. The fact that such a tactic is possible nicely explains both why Padme expected it to work, as well as why Qui-Gon expected the less well trained pilots to be incapable of pulling it off.

the shield around the droid control ship seems to be hull hugging as we actually see blaster and torpedo strikes against the hull do no damage whatsoever. that would account for why they didn't use that "tactic".

[texanmarauder]

yet the Avengers shields couldn't stop the falcon from landing on its hull.

The logical conclusion to draw from this is that the ship didn't have its aft shields up. Which makes a lot of sense if you are in pursuit of a single ship that you obviously thought was going to stay in your forward arcs. You know, given the odds of charging a star destroyer...

Also, if you are chasing down a surprisingly fast freighter dumping your reactor energy into engines makes a lot more sense than powering an aft shield you have no reason to believe is defending you from anything.

Bonus also: Though we don't see any on screen at that time its quite possible both ships are still inside the danger zone of the asteroid field. If you are hurtling at max velocity in such an environment you don't really need to worry about a rock hitting your butt. You don, however, need to be even more concerned about one hitting you in the face. Double front baby!

the problem with that is that its clearly stated that they are leaving the asteroid field and we actually see the asteroids thin out until they are gone. "hes moving into attack position! shields up!". they don't specify double front. and if they were still inside the "danger zone" of the asteroid field while exiting, why would you take a chance of a stray asteroid going anywhere near your engines or tailpipe? especially since we have already heard that the rest of the fleet has taken significant damage, which one ISD losing their entire command tower. that wouldn't make sense either. that's the problem with making assumptions. you are assuming that the order was given off screen and respond accordingly, but it still doesn't make sense. so your logical conclusion isn't logical at all. EDIT: the last time we actually see any asteroids are when the falcon takes a direct hit to the starboard aft shield. after that they are well out of the asteroid field. in fact, when the falcon makes its "attack run" on the Avenger, we see the asteroid field far in the background.

[FaxModem1]

What can we take from the season 3 finale of Rebels, in which Ezra and several Mandalorians perform a boarding action on the Interdictor? They merrily run across it's hull, as well as fly around it.




Where does this fit into it?

[Shroom Man 777]

What can we take from the season 3 finale of Rebels, in which Ezra and several Mandalorians perform a boarding action on the Interdictor? They merrily run across it's hull, as well as fly around it.


Where does this fit into it?

Rear echelon Interdictor, shields might be down because it wasn't expecting hostile fire (Rebels were all suppressed planetside), power might've been focused on the interdiction field generator (on the other hand, if this is so, how did Ezra and the Mandos enter the system? Unless the interdictor field can be directional?)?

[Lord Revan]

What can we take from the season 3 finale of Rebels, in which Ezra and several Mandalorians perform a boarding action on the Interdictor? They merrily run across it's hull, as well as fly around it.


Where does this fit into it?

Rear echelon Interdictor, shields might be down because it wasn't expecting hostile fire (Rebels were all suppressed planetside), power might've been focused on the interdiction field generator (on the other hand, if this is so, how did Ezra and the Mandos enter the system? Unless the interdictor field can be directional?)?

actually entering the system is not a problem, in one of the EU books (a Thrawn one I think) an interdictor was used to pull imperial ships out of hyperspace where the (imperial) fleet commander wanted them to be. An interdictor field stop pulls you out of hyperspace within the area of effect (which doesn't seem to be that great) it doesn't prevent you from entering the field (and thus the system). That said with the rebels suppressed planet side and the rebel base having no surface to orbit weapons it wouldn't surprice if the imperial ships lowered their shields for easier operations

[Patroklos]

the problem with that is that its clearly stated that they are leaving the asteroid field and we actually see the asteroids thin out until they are gone.

If I am remember correctly, and I am, the line you are referencing is referring to Vader's ship leaving to get better comms with the Emperor, not the Avenger or any other ship. There is never a mention of the MC or any other Imperial ship leaving the asteroid field, and it would make sense given the chase is still on that the Executor returned to the asteroid field when the transmission was done. From the script
Spoiler

EXT. IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER, AVENGER - ASTEROID BELT

The Millennium Falcon speeds through deep space, closely followed by a
firing Imperial Star Destroyer. A large asteroid about the same size
as the Falcon tumbles rapidly toward the starship. The tiny Falcon
banks to avoid the giant asteroid as smaller rocks pelt its surface.
Then the small craft roars under the asteroid which explodes harmlessly
on the hull of the vast Star Destroyer.

INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT

The ship shudders as flak explodes near the cockpit window. Threepio
checks a tracking scope an the side control panel while Leia watches
tensely out the window.

THREEPIO
Oh, thank goodness we're coming
out of the asteroid field.

Chewie barks excitedly as the rain of asteroids begins to subside. A
bolt from the Star Destroyer sets up a fiery explosion on the back side
of the Falcon, causing it to lurch to one side.

EXT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - STAR DESTROYER, AVENGER - ASTEROID FIELD

The Falcon is hit hard by another bolt from the Star Destroyer which
creates a huge explosion near the cockpit of the smaller ship. The
Falcon tilts steeply, then rights itself.

INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT

Han corrects the angle of his ship.

HAN
Let's get out of here. Ready for
light-speed? One... two... three!

Han pulls back on the hyperspace throttle and - nothing happens. Flak
bursts continue to rock the ship.

HAN
(frantic)
It's not fair!

Chewie is very angry and starts to growl and bark at his friend and
captain. Again, Han desperately pulls back on the throttle.

HAN
The transfer circuits are working.
It's not my fault!

Chewie puts his head in his hands, whining.

LEIA
(almost expecting
it)
No light-speed?

HAN
It's not my fault.

THREEPIO
Sir, we just lost the main rear
deflector shield. One more direct
hit on the back quarter and we're
done for.

Han pauses for a moment, makes a decision, and pulls back on a lever.

HAN
Turn her around.

Chewie barks in puzzlement.

HAN
I said turn her around! I'm
going to put all power in the
front shield.

LEIA
You're going to attack them?!

THREEPIO
Sir, the odds of surviving a
direct assault on an Imperial
Star Destroyer...

LEIA
Shut up!

EXT. SPACE - MILLENNIUM FALCON - ASTEROID FIELD

The Falcon banks, makes a steep, twisting turn. In the next moment it
is racing toward the Star Destroyer, looking very small against the
massive surface of the Imperial ship. As it moves across the surface
of the Star Destroyer, the Falcon bobs and weaves to avoid the numerous
flak bursts.

INT. STAR DESTROYER, AVENGER - BRIDGE

The tiny Falcon heads directly for the Avenger's bridge. The Imperials
stationed there are stunned to see the small spaceship racing low
across the hull, headed directly at the huge windows of the bridge
area. Alarms go off everywhere. The Destroyer's commander, Captain
Needa, can scarcely believe his eyes.

NEEDA
They're moving to attack
position! Shields up!

Needa and his men duck as the Falcon nears the bridge window. At the
last minute, the Falcon veers off and out of sight. All is quiet.

NEEDA
Track them. They may come
around for another pass.

TRACKING OFFICER
Captain Needa, the ship no longer
appears on our scopes.

NEEDA
They can't have disappeared. No
ship that small has a cloaking
device.

TRACKING OFFICER
Well, there's no trace of them,
sir.

COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER
Captain, Lord Vader demands an
update on the pursuit.

NEEDA
(drawing a breath)
Get a shuttle ready. I shall
assume full responsibility for
losing them, and apologize to Lord
Vader. Meanwhile, continue to
scan the area.

COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER
Yes, Captain Needa

The asteroid field we see on screen resembles no know real life type. Its a brain bug that an asteroid field resembles a bolder field but in reality anything that looked like that in real life would have pulverized itself into dust (as we watched on screen) or disbursed within centuries if not decades of forming.

Real asteroid fields are only dense when considered relative to other astronomical entities. If you stand on Ceres the next closest object to you is probably tens of thousands of kilometers away, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of kilometers. Which means you can be in the middle of an asteroid field and have it look just like we see on screen.

In the case of ESB just because they have left the super dense fictional ring or asteroids does not mean they don't have many billions of cubic meters of less dense danger area around it where traveling at whatever velocities the MC and a pursuing ISD are still pose a significant danger even if you can't see them with the naked eye.

"hes moving into attack position! shields up!". they don't specify double front. and if they were still inside the "danger zone" of the asteroid field while exiting, why would you take a chance of a stray asteroid going anywhere near your engines or tailpipe? especially since we have already heard that the rest of the fleet has taken significant damage, which one ISD losing their entire command tower.

I never said the shields are not up when the MC attaches, I said there was little reason to have aft shields up. Even in the scene you reference the "attack position" was directly in front of them, not behind them.

Also, no there is not a chance of an asteroid hitting them in the tale pipe unless you think there are any asteroids moving at speeds even close to what SW ships travel at when they REALLY want to be going as fast as possible. This is at least in the hundreds of km/s, probably the thousands. By their nature asteroids move at speeds nowhere near that, because then they wouldn't be in the asteroid belt any longer...

that wouldn't make sense either. that's the problem with making assumptions. you are assuming that the order was given off screen and respond accordingly, but it still doesn't make sense. so your logical conclusion isn't logical at all.

The only one making assumptions here is you. Its not an assumption that the MC landed on the Avenger, and its not an assumption that this is impossible if the shields arer up (there is a reason Lando was worried about being a splattered blob on the DSIIs energy windshield). Its not an assumption that SW vessels can raise and lower shields at different arcs around their vessels. It is not an assumption that for most of the pursuit the Avenger had no shields up whatsoever. Its not an assumption that that the threat the raised shields for was in front of them rather than behind them. Evey one of those things, without any further extrapolation, support my take on things. YOU are the one making assumptions in the service of your hairbrained shield mechanic pet theory, specifically that the aft shield MUST be up despite all evidence to the contrary.

EDIT: the last time we actually see any asteroids are when the falcon takes a direct hit to the starboard aft shield. after that they are well out of the asteroid field. in fact, when the falcon makes its "attack run" on the Avenger, we see the asteroid field far in the background.

You see a particularly dense part of an asteroid field, which says nothing about less dense parts of the entire field. At the speeds they are traveling, the fact that they can see anything at all proves my point, they would hurtle through anything in visual range before their brain even registered anything happened.

Also, the script specifically names the scene's location as in the asteroid field :p

You real argument here should be that since Needa had to specifically order the shields to be raised this means that during the pursuit the shields were indeed down. This could suggest that they are in no danger of being hit by an asteroid and thus are not in an asteroid belt. This is, however, not a smart assumption to make because it would assume any asteroid hit of any size endangers an ISD, the ISD has no ability to use sensors and maneuvers to avoid hits in a less dense environment (which was obviously not 100% possible in the denser parts) and that the ISD is not willing to take some risk to full fill the mission of their boss who tends to be, how shall we say, be harsh of the failure of subordinates.

[texanmarauder]

the problem with that is that its clearly stated that they are leaving the asteroid field and we actually see the asteroids thin out until they are gone.

If I am remember correctly, and I am, the line you are referencing is referring to Vader's ship leaving to get better comms with the Emperor, not the Avenger or any other ship. There is never a mention of the MC or any other Imperial ship leaving the asteroid field, and it would make sense given the chase is still on that the Executor returned to the asteroid field when the transmission was done. From the script

I wasn't referring to the executor. on screen, and even in your script threepio states "Oh, thank goodness we're coming out of the asteroid field."


Spoiler

EXT. IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER, AVENGER - ASTEROID BELT

The Millennium Falcon speeds through deep space, closely followed by a
firing Imperial Star Destroyer. A large asteroid about the same size
as the Falcon tumbles rapidly toward the starship. The tiny Falcon
banks to avoid the giant asteroid as smaller rocks pelt its surface.
Then the small craft roars under the asteroid which explodes harmlessly
on the hull of the vast Star Destroyer.

INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT

The ship shudders as flak explodes near the cockpit window. Threepio
checks a tracking scope an the side control panel while Leia watches
tensely out the window.

THREEPIO
Oh, thank goodness we're coming
out of the asteroid field.

Chewie barks excitedly as the rain of asteroids begins to subside. A
bolt from the Star Destroyer sets up a fiery explosion on the back side
of the Falcon, causing it to lurch to one side.

EXT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - STAR DESTROYER, AVENGER - ASTEROID FIELD

The Falcon is hit hard by another bolt from the Star Destroyer which
creates a huge explosion near the cockpit of the smaller ship. The
Falcon tilts steeply, then rights itself.

INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT

Han corrects the angle of his ship.

HAN
Let's get out of here. Ready for
light-speed? One... two... three!

Han pulls back on the hyperspace throttle and - nothing happens. Flak
bursts continue to rock the ship.

HAN
(frantic)
It's not fair!

Chewie is very angry and starts to growl and bark at his friend and
captain. Again, Han desperately pulls back on the throttle.

HAN
The transfer circuits are working.
It's not my fault!

Chewie puts his head in his hands, whining.

LEIA
(almost expecting
it)
No light-speed?

HAN
It's not my fault.

THREEPIO
Sir, we just lost the main rear
deflector shield. One more direct
hit on the back quarter and we're
done for.

Han pauses for a moment, makes a decision, and pulls back on a lever.

HAN
Turn her around.

Chewie barks in puzzlement.

HAN
I said turn her around! I'm
going to put all power in the
front shield.

LEIA
You're going to attack them?!

THREEPIO
Sir, the odds of surviving a
direct assault on an Imperial
Star Destroyer...

LEIA
Shut up!

EXT. SPACE - MILLENNIUM FALCON - ASTEROID FIELD

The Falcon banks, makes a steep, twisting turn. In the next moment it
is racing toward the Star Destroyer, looking very small against the
massive surface of the Imperial ship. As it moves across the surface
of the Star Destroyer, the Falcon bobs and weaves to avoid the numerous
flak bursts.

INT. STAR DESTROYER, AVENGER - BRIDGE

The tiny Falcon heads directly for the Avenger's bridge. The Imperials
stationed there are stunned to see the small spaceship racing low
across the hull, headed directly at the huge windows of the bridge
area. Alarms go off everywhere. The Destroyer's commander, Captain
Needa, can scarcely believe his eyes.

NEEDA
They're moving to attack
position! Shields up!

Needa and his men duck as the Falcon nears the bridge window. At the
last minute, the Falcon veers off and out of sight. All is quiet.

NEEDA
Track them. They may come
around for another pass.

TRACKING OFFICER
Captain Needa, the ship no longer
appears on our scopes.

NEEDA
They can't have disappeared. No
ship that small has a cloaking
device.

TRACKING OFFICER
Well, there's no trace of them,
sir.

COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER
Captain, Lord Vader demands an
update on the pursuit.

NEEDA
(drawing a breath)
Get a shuttle ready. I shall
assume full responsibility for
losing them, and apologize to Lord
Vader. Meanwhile, continue to
scan the area.

COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER
Yes, Captain Needa

The asteroid field we see on screen resembles no know real life type. Its a brain bug that an asteroid field resembles a bolder field but in reality anything that looked like that in real life would have pulverized itself into dust (as we watched on screen) or disbursed within centuries if not decades of forming.

Real asteroid fields are only dense when considered relative to other astronomical entities. If you stand on Ceres the next closest object to you is probably tens of thousands of kilometers away, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of kilometers. Which means you can be in the middle of an asteroid field and have it look just like we see on screen.

In the case of ESB just because they have left the super dense fictional ring or asteroids does not mean they don't have many billions of cubic meters of less dense danger area around it where traveling at whatever velocities the MC and a pursuing ISD are still pose a significant danger even if you can't see them with the naked eye.

"hes moving into attack position! shields up!". they don't specify double front. and if they were still inside the "danger zone" of the asteroid field while exiting, why would you take a chance of a stray asteroid going anywhere near your engines or tailpipe? especially since we have already heard that the rest of the fleet has taken significant damage, which one ISD losing their entire command tower.

I never said the shields are not up when the MC attaches, I said there was little reason to have aft shields up. Even in the scene you reference the "attack position" was directly in front of them, not behind them.

Also, no there is not a chance of an asteroid hitting them in the tale pipe unless you think there are any asteroids moving at speeds even close to what SW ships travel at when they REALLY want to be going as fast as possible. This is at least in the hundreds of km/s, probably the thousands. By their nature asteroids move at speeds nowhere near that, because then they wouldn't be in the asteroid belt any longer...

tell that to the ISD that had its command tower sheared off by an asteroid several times the size of the falcon.

that wouldn't make sense either. that's the problem with making assumptions. you are assuming that the order was given off screen and respond accordingly, but it still doesn't make sense. so your logical conclusion isn't logical at all.

The only one making assumptions here is you. Its not an assumption that the MC landed on the Avenger, and its not an assumption that this is impossible if the shields arer up (there is a reason Lando was worried about being a splattered blob on the DSIIs energy windshield). Its not an assumption that SW vessels can raise and lower shields at different arcs around their vessels. It is not an assumption that for most of the pursuit the Avenger had no shields up whatsoever. Its not an assumption that that the threat the raised shields for was in front of them rather than behind them. Evey one of those things, without any further extrapolation, support my take on things. YOU are the one making assumptions in the service of your hairbrained shield mechanic pet theory, specifically that the aft shield MUST be up despite all evidence to the contrary.

by definition you are making an assumption that the aft shields were down after the order of "shields up". last time I checked, capt needa didn't say "shields up except for the aft shields". and frankly, sw shields, with the exception of the Devastator in R1 (gotta LOVE SW consistency) have never been great at stopping physical objects. or why else could fighters fly through them?

EDIT: the last time we actually see any asteroids are when the falcon takes a direct hit to the starboard aft shield. after that they are well out of the asteroid field. in fact, when the falcon makes its "attack run" on the Avenger, we see the asteroid field far in the background.

You see a particularly dense part of an asteroid field, which says nothing about less dense parts of the entire field. At the speeds they are traveling, the fact that they can see anything at all proves my point, they would hurtle through anything in visual range before their brain even registered anything happened.

nothing in SW has ever demonstrated the kind of speeds you are talking about. at best, we have seen maybe 50? kps. since an ISD is 1600m long, and we saw 3 of them nearly collide (two actually scraped hulls) while chasing the falcon, it took several seconds for one ISD to pass bow to stern of another ISD. and that was with them both moving toward each other. so not even 1kps.

Also, the script specifically names the scene's location as in the asteroid field :p

You real argument here should be that since Needa had to specifically order the shields to be raised this means that during the pursuit the shields were indeed down. This could suggest that they are in no danger of being hit by an asteroid and thus are not in an asteroid belt. This is, however, not a smart assumption to make because it would assume any asteroid hit of any size endangers an ISD, the ISD has no ability to use sensors and maneuvers to avoid hits in a less dense environment (which was obviously not 100% possible in the denser parts) and that the ISD is not willing to take some risk to full fill the mission of their boss who tends to be, how shall we say, be harsh of the failure of subordinates.

one of the ISD captains did indeed state that the fleet has sustained damage, right before vader contacts the emperor. so either they had shields down the whole time due to the fact that they would be useless against asteroids or other physical objects, or they were sustaining damage for no reason. or a third option would be that the shields had taken a beating and were being recharged. that one is pure speculation though. plus, ISDs maneuver like a brick. so dodging asteroids probably isn't an option anyway. in any case, there is no evidence aside from assumption or speculation that the aft shields were not up after the order to raise shields was given. which means that the falcon was able to fly right through the shields and attach to the hull, at high speed, without being detected.

[Patroklos]

one of the ISD captains did indeed state that the fleet has sustained damage, right before vader contacts the emperor. so either they had shields down the whole time due to the fact that they would be useless against asteroids or other physical objects, or they were sustaining damage for no reason.

I am sure they were taking damage, from a few percentage points off their shield power to catastrophic destruction as seen on screen. That doesn't help prove your point. The fact that fully shield ISDs can be damaged by asteroids does not mean every asteroid can damage a fully shielded or even shielded ISD. Asteroids come in all shapes and sizes, are made up of very different materials, and any impacts will vary in destructiveness depending on the relative velocities of the ship and asteroid during impact.

or a third option would be that the shields had taken a beating and were being recharged. that one is pure speculation though. plus, ISDs maneuver like a brick. so dodging asteroids probably isn't an option anyway.

Says who? I hope you are not going to say because they are big.

in any case, there is no evidence aside from assumption or speculation that the aft shields were not up after the order to raise shields was given. which means that the falcon was able to fly right through the shields and attach to the hull, at high speed, without being detected.

Once again nonsense, you are just trying to bend the facts to your preferred outcome.

Did you ever think that the MC beat the shield generator operator to the punch? Probably not, because you are too mush shoe horning in your head canon.

[Crazedwraith]

The heck is the MC? Must have missed all the Mon Cals taking part in the asteroid chase.

[Patroklos]

Sorry thats a typo. It should be MF.

[texanmarauder]

Says who? I hope you are not going to say because they are big.

in that same movie we see two ISDs brush hulls. all 3 almost collided. either the commanders are completely incompetent or ISDs take thousands of kilometers just to turn.

Once again nonsense, you are just trying to bend the facts to your preferred outcome.

definition of speculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence. fact one. you have absolutely zero evidence that the shields were not up. fact two. we DO however hear captain needa give the order to raise shields. fact 3. the falcon does land on the hull at high speed and is still undetected. those are the facts. the only one that has no hard evidence is you. evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: key word FACTS.

Did you ever think that the MC beat the shield generator operator to the punch? Probably not, because you are too mush shoe horning in your head canon.[/quote] and how long does it take for the shields to go up? I assume you have a valid source? IIRC we see needa give the order and then it cuts to the officer actually flipping the switch. its several seconds later when the falcon actually reaches the command structure.

[texanmarauder]

sorry, I suck at using the quote system lol

[Patroklos]

in that same movie we see two ISDs brush hulls. all 3 almost collided. either the commanders are completely incompetent or ISDs take thousands of kilometers just to turn.

I see no evidence of a collision in that scene visually, though you can interpret the movements of the crew on the bridge as either being thrown about because of a collision, thrown about because of emergency maneuvers, or bracing for impact. Since we don't see a collision, the second seems likely.

However what we DO see is a kilometer long warship pitch its nose at least 15-20 degrees almost instantly. If you understand how maneuvering in space works and the concept of moment of inertia the impressiveness of this feat might escape you. It does not escape me.

Just as impressive is the fact that they almost entirely stop forward momentum in seconds. Again, if you don't understand how maneuvering in space works this might seem ho hum to you rather than damn impressive. For your information one of the most important maneuvering measurements of a real world warship besides its turning circle is its crash back performance. Being able to go from full speed forward to all stop within a ship length is the a good rule of thumb regarding good ship maneuverability. This is with the help of friction...

As to competence of the crews for allowing such a dangerous situation to develop normally as a ship handler myself I would agree with you, but given these dudes are answering to Vader once again I can't blame them for some risk taking.

definition of speculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence. fact one. you have absolutely zero evidence that the shields were not up. fact two.

So Captain Needa ordered his crew to raise his shields....because they were already up? Yeah....

Contrary to your backwards logic the only thing we do know is that the shields were not up for some portion, perhaps all, of the scene.

fact two we DO however hear captain needa give the order to raise shields

Orders given are not the same as orders executed. I remember another more urgent scene where someone mentioned something about "intensify forward fire power" yet ten seconds later someone shouts "TOO LATE!" so obviously this didn't happen in that time frame.

The fact that an A-wing then slams through a viewport drives home this point. The fact that the Millennium Falcon attaches to the Avenger proves mine.

fact 3. the falcon does land on the hull at high speed and is still undetected.

Surely you mean landed at zero relative speed. Because, you know, it landed. It being undetected is irrelevant to your position.

those are the facts. the only one that has no hard evidence is you. evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: key word FACTS.

Not a single one of the things you said was factual. You not being able to understand this is why you are having such a hard time in this thread. You are substituting your opinion for fact.

and how long does it take for the shields to go up? I assume you have a valid source? IIRC we see needa give the order and then it cuts to the officer actually flipping the switch. its several seconds later when the falcon actually reaches the command structure.

I don't know. How long should it take to intensify forward fire power?

We certainly see some crew members flipping switches but are you sure that was for the shields? This is the same dude who is relaying comms ten seconds later, why would the comm guy be in charge of shield generators? Even if he did, are you sure he was charging up shields 360x360? Do shields just flip on instantaneously? You know none of these things, yet your position depends on all of these unknowns working just as you need them too AND all other instances of your pet theory being blown out of the water in the rest of the trilogy being ignored.

So riddle me this: If fast moving fighters can just waltz through shields, why did the bridge deflector shield being down on the Executor matter? I mean, they weren't concerned about enemy capital ship fire vaporizing their bridge because intensifying forward firepower wouldn't help with that. They were specifically now worried about star fighters, where previously when the shield was up they were not worried about enemy star fighters. The fact that an A-wing didn't nose dive through their window prior to that should make this difference clear. I am standing by for you to hand wave yourself out of this one now.

[texanmarauder]

"I see no evidence of a collision in that scene visually, though you can interpret the movements of the crew on the bridge as either being thrown about because of a collision, thrown about because of emergency maneuvers, or bracing for impact. Since we don't see a collision, the second seems likely."

first off, you don't get shimmies and tremors throughout the bridge just from evasive maneuvers. second, you used the script to try to prove a point, my turn.

"INTERIOR: STAR DESTROYER -- BRIDGE

Out the front window, the two approaching Star Destroyers
can be seen veering to the left.

IMPERIAL OFFICER: Take evasive action!

Alarms sound all over the huge ship. The two other Star
Destroyers get closer, one of them moving over the bridge so
close that it makes brushing contact with it.

EXTERIOR: SPACE -- MILLENNIUM FALCON -- TIE FIGHTERS

The Millennium Falcon races away from the colliding Star
Destroyers, still followed by four TIE fighters. Laser bolts
spark the pitch-black skies.

"

"However what we DO see is a kilometer long warship pitch its nose at least 15-20 degrees almost instantly. If you understand how maneuvering in space works and the concept of moment of inertia the impressiveness of this feat might escape you. It does not escape me." we see it pitch not even 5 degrees and it takes hundreds of meters to do that.

"Just as impressive is the fact that they almost entirely stop forward momentum in seconds." didn't happen. they didn't even noticeably slow down while still on screen.

"As to competence of the crews for allowing such a dangerous situation to develop normally as a ship handler myself I would agree with you, but given these dudes are answering to Vader once again I can't blame them for some risk taking. " so almost crashing 3 star destroyers is gonna make him happy? big difference between acceptable risk and blatant incompetence.

"So Captain Needa ordered his crew to raise his shields....because they were already up? Yeah....

Contrary to your backwards logic the only thing we do know is that the shields were not up for some portion, perhaps all, of the scene." let me rephrase and clarify. captain needa ordered the shields up several seconds before the falcon made a hard landing on the Avengers command tower. to clarify, you have no evidence that the shields were not up when the falcon hard landed. you have assumption and speculation.

"Orders given are not the same as orders executed. I remember another more urgent scene where someone mentioned something about "intensify forward fire power" yet ten seconds later someone shouts "TOO LATE!" so obviously this didn't happen in that time frame." that is a separate situation entirely and not applicable to the current topic. big difference between trying to get a turbolaser bead on an out of control enemy fighter and flipping a switch.

"The fact that an A-wing then slams through a viewport drives home this point. The fact that the Millennium Falcon attaches to the Avenger proves mine. " again, you have no evidence that the shields weren't up. plus, we have already seen something exactly like what the falcon did to the avenger. Anakin and adi Gallia actually manage to dock a shuttle through the shields of grievous's flagship while it was in battle. so its not like it hasn't been done before. more evidence to back up my claim is a handful of proton torpedoes apparently going right through the shields of the Malevolence. preponderance of evidence is on my side here.


"Surely you mean landed at zero relative speed. Because, you know, it landed. It being undetected is irrelevant to your position. " seeing as how the falcon approached the command tower at full burn zero relative speed would be impossible. plus, IIRC, the avenger was chasing the falcon. meaning that the avenger still had forward motion. the only possibility would be a hard dock since the falcon doesn't have the capability of decelerating that quickly in such a short distance or time.

"I don't know. How long should it take to intensify forward fire power?" irrelevant.

"You know none of these things, yet your position depends on all of these unknowns working just as you need them too AND all other instances of your pet theory being blown out of the water in the rest of the trilogy being ignored." you don't know either. whats your excuse? I guess the guy disobeyed and didn't raise the shields? my arguments are based on facts seen on screen. yours are based on supposition and speculation, with a side of assumption. and there are at least two examples of the same thing happening. one, I listed above. the second, how did anakins naboo fighter get past the shields to get into the hangar? we already know that the TF ships shields were up. like I said, preponderance of evidence.

"If fast moving fighters can just waltz through shields, why did the bridge deflector shield being down on the Executor matter? I mean, they weren't concerned about enemy capital ship fire vaporizing their bridge because intensifying forward firepower wouldn't help with that. They were specifically now worried about star fighters, where previously when the shield was up they were not worried about enemy star fighters. The fact that an A-wing didn't nose dive through their window prior to that should make this difference clear. I am standing by for you to hand wave yourself out of this one now." the enemy fighters have to get into firing position to take advantage of the shields dropping. intensifying the forward firepower WOULD prevent that. after all, those fighters are dependent on line of sight to fire. they cant fire around corners. their blasters and torpedoes don't have that capability. so without shields to protect them, the only viable solution would be to blanket that area with constant fire. also, the only time we saw torpedoes being used in that battle was wedge Antilles firing torpedoes at the power regulator on the main reactor. still not waving myself off.

[Eternal_Freedom]

First, please sort out your use of quotes, it's a fucking mess.

Second, citing a script as proof, especially for descriptions rather than dialogue, is dodgy at best. What is seen on-screen is preferable, and I don't recall actually seeing a collision, so the "rapid evasive action" cidea seems just as viable.

[texanmarauder]

First, please sort out your use of quotes, it's a fucking mess.

yeah not used to this quote system

[Khaat]

sorry, I suck at using the quote system lol

a) It's [ quote="username"]Text text text. [ /quote] (except without the spaces after the open bracket "["), the output looks like:

Text text text.

You can do this all the live-long day, even nesting quotes:
[ quote="texanmarauder]Text text text[ quote="Someone Else"]Text text text[ /quote][ /quote] which looks like:

Text text text

Text text text

b) Full Editor & Preview is your friend.

Hey, E_F, any chance you could fix the typo in the thread name before Batman asks a third time?