Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

hellified
Redshirt
Posts: 26
Joined: 2015-02-28 12:46am

Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby hellified » 2017-03-20 09:33am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOEqF5eFbg4

I geek out pretty hard folks but here goes!!


Key scenes from the last 20 minutes of Rogue One seem a bit off and out of character with core Star Wars characters. SPOILER ALERT!

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 5531
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-20 01:26pm

I get the Vader thing. Having once said this:

Galvatron wrote:This is why I dislike Vader's overuse of his lightsaber in the EU, new and old. In none of the movies did he ever use it against anyone but other Force users. Everyone else got choked like a bitch. He didn't even need to use his lightsaber to block Han's blaster shots for chrissakes.

I reconsidered upon seeing him in Rogue One. I think they did an admirable job of depicting him as an unstoppable juggernaut who used all of his tools to prevent the rebels from escaping with the Death Star plans (which he nearly succeeded at).

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-20 01:39pm

Their may be a limit to how many blaster bolts Vader can effectively block unarmed while still going on the offensive. So using a sabre for that makes sense.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20719
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-20 01:40pm

I have no sounds right now so... I can't deal with the video (this is why I prefer articles). Anyway. I think his movement patterns in Rogue One were not inconsistent with his movement patterns in the OT and I think they did well in differentiating his moves from PT flashy Jedi stuff.
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 5531
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-20 01:42pm

I also recommend the Vader Down arc from his comic series. It depicts him as a virtual one-man army who uses the Force as effectively in combat as he does his lightsaber. It's when he's depicted as using only his lightsaber against muggles that it rings false with me.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-20 01:43pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I have no sounds right now so... I can't deal with the video (this is why I prefer articles). Anyway. I think his movement patterns in Rogue One were not inconsistent with his movement patterns in the OT and I think they did well in differentiating his moves from PT flashy Jedi stuff.


As I've said before, I think that the new films have struck a good balance between the combat styles of the OT and PT- making use of what they can do with modern effects, and showing more fluid movement than the sometimes clunky OT duels, but being more restrained than the PT era lightsaber fights.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 593
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-20 01:45pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I have no sounds right now so... I can't deal with the video (this is why I prefer articles). Anyway. I think his movement patterns in Rogue One were not inconsistent with his movement patterns in the OT and I think they did well in differentiating his moves from PT flashy Jedi stuff.

If you cut the "s" out of the "https", the sound will work.
"Just because you're the captain doesn't mean you can order me to... oh, right. Fuck, it does." - Krep, Spacetrawler

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20719
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-20 01:50pm

I mean I have no speakers/headphones right now.

I think ESB's duel is the best.
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-20 02:01pm

Probably, yes, on two levels.

First, its probably the most creative in terms of the techniques and tactics both combatants use without getting over the top like some of the PT duels. Although I think on this criteria, the Yoda vs. Dooku duel comes close.

Second, and most importantly, it, like the RotJ duel, is as much about the (very effective) drama between the characters as it is the fighting and effects.

Although The Clone Wars and Rebels have some excellent duels, actually.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 593
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-20 02:06pm

Ah, well. Basically:
1) Everything else (TV, movies, comics, etc.) done should fit the original trilogy, period.
2) Vader going to town at the end of Rogue One was "out of character" because ANH, he let the stormtroopers lead the assault on the Tantive IV, and the ESB, rebel base on Hoth
3) Tarkin should have been "IDGAF about the plans" in Rogue One, because he was going to blow up the rebel's planet - the secret was out, but the rebellion was going to be done by the end of business today
Last edited by Khaat on 2017-03-20 02:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just because you're the captain doesn't mean you can order me to... oh, right. Fuck, it does." - Krep, Spacetrawler

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 5531
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-20 02:19pm

Khaat wrote:2) Vader going to town at the end of Rogue One was "out of character" because ANH, he let the stormtroopers lead the assault on the Tantive IV, and the ESB, rebel base on Hoth

The Tantive IV was tractored into the Devastator's docking bay, from which the entire ship's complement of stormtroopers could conceivably board her.

On Hoth, Vader accompanied the stormtroopers into Echo Base.

In Rogue One, Vader boarded the Profundity with a Lambda-class shuttle. Perhaps he simply didn't bring enough troops with him to overwhelm the large number of rebel soldiers that he was expecting to face.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-20 02:25pm

Yeah, if he's boarding a Mon Calimari cruiser with a shuttle, they're going to be badly outnumbered. And speed was of the essence. The only one who'd have had a chance of cutting through that many troops that quickly was Vader.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 593
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Khaat » 2017-03-20 02:38pm

The video's point was that we didn't see Vader going to town with a lightsabre in the OT on anyone but Jedi/wannabes. Force choke? Not so much in combat situations.

In Rogue One, Vader called for a boarding party (for the disabled rebel ship.) Whomever they were, wherever the were, this boarding party wasn't working with him when he lit up his lightsabre and started in on the rebel troopers. The shuttle was big enough for quite a few rebel commandos (16?) plus heroes on Endor.... Small escort I could see. But no escort?

On Hoth, Veers holo'd Vader, "The shield will be down in moments, you may start your landing." Vader wasn't on the ground with them, he moved in with an escort after the retreat had been signaled, behind the troopers (and AT-ATs and AT-STs) who actually encountered rebel resistance. Solo activated the remote repeater-blaster on the Falcon and it was on his way out by the time Vader turned up at the hangar. Less RAGE!Vader and more "I'm going to see that this is done right, or I'm going to Force-choke someone as their performance review!"
"Just because you're the captain doesn't mean you can order me to... oh, right. Fuck, it does." - Krep, Spacetrawler

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 5531
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-20 02:49pm

We see Vader's stormtroopers filing in behind him after the Tantive IV launches. There were maybe four of them, which isn't much against a Mon Cal cruiser full of rebel soldiers. I'd assume that any others were mopping up throughout the rest of the ship.

Either way, Vader clearly thought this was a situation that demanded his personal intervention (e.g. the Battle of Yavin).

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-20 02:56pm

Yup. Its a situation where speed is essential to prevent the escape of the plans, with a lot of soldiers in the way, and Vader is the ideal person for handling exactly that sort of situation.

Whining about it because "Its not exactly like such and such scenes in the OT" just shows how creatively sterile the franchise would be if the hard core OT fans got their way.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28492
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Simon_Jester » 2017-03-20 03:16pm

Yeah.

Having the stormtroopers lead the way would slow things down because they can't just effortlessly cut through a defended corridor guarded by soldiers with blaster rifles and cover. They can do it, but not without breaking stride. Having the stormtroopers follow closely behind Vader would be pointless; they'd be more likely to accidentally shoot Vader than to accomplish anything useful to speed up Vader's forward progress. So the best use of the stormtroopers is to cover Vader's back, stop any rebel troops that try to catch up with them from behind and shoot Vader from behind.

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20719
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-20 03:41pm

+in the Tantive we see the Stormtroopers filing ahead as part of the initial breaching operation (presumably the Rebels meeting the breachers were the bulk of the ship's security forces).

In Rogue One, it seems like Vader and company have gone through a fair portion of Raddus' (significantly larger!) ship so for all we know the rest of the Stormtroopers who might've led the breaching operation/entrance might've fanned out to take out other concentrations of resistance that might've had the data, that might've gone for other escape routes (escape pods? secondary bays? who knows) or might've even outflanked and encircled Vader's solo pursuit and/or obstructed him even more...

I'm assuming that one of the reasons why Vader was able to zero-in on that bunch of Rebels is because of his Force intuition. I guess it might not take Force powers to guess that those with sensitive information are gonna head for the getaway ship in the bays but still.
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15292
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Knife » 2017-03-20 08:37pm

It was a nice mix of a character from OT they never had a chance to show bad ass like that in wire fu Michel Bay style shit and PT era super jumpy hopy shit.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13779
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Gandalf » 2017-03-20 11:28pm

Got about ten seconds in before that voice made me turn off.

Knife wrote:It was a nice mix of a character from OT they never had a chance to show bad ass like that in wire fu Michel Bay style shit and PT era super jumpy hopy shit.


For me it came off as little more than pandering to Vader fanboys. I would have liked a more subdued Vader as opposed to Starkiller from Force Unleashed.
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

"People tell me, 'Bill, let it go. The Kennedy assassination was years ago. It was just the assassination of a President and the hijacking of our government by a totalitarian regime — who cares? Just let it go.' I say, 'All right then. That whole Jesus thing? Let it go! It was 2,000 years ago! Who cares?'"
- Bill Hicks

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-20 11:38pm

Gandalf wrote:Got about ten seconds in before that voice made me turn off.

Knife wrote:It was a nice mix of a character from OT they never had a chance to show bad ass like that in wire fu Michel Bay style shit and PT era super jumpy hopy shit.


For me it came off as little more than pandering to Vader fanboys. I would have liked a more subdued Vader as opposed to Starkiller from Force Unleashed.


I disagree.

Vader is supposed to be this huge threat, the Emperor's dreaded enforcer. This is something that was never really fully shown on-screen, however, in the OT.

And my response to that scene in Rogue One was as much horror as being impressed by how "bad ass" Vader is. Seriously, it had a horror-movie vibe to it, and it drove home, more effectively than any other scene in the film for me, the shear hopeless desperation of the Rebellion's struggle at that point, as well as the heroism of the individual rank and file troops. It made me care about the struggles of nameless extras, more even than the main characters, and made them the people on whom the entire war ultimately depended.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13779
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Gandalf » 2017-03-20 11:57pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Vader is supposed to be this huge threat, the Emperor's dreaded enforcer. This is something that was never really fully shown on-screen, however, in the OT.


They didn't have to show much either. You don't always have to see the monster to be scared of it. But every time he turns up, shit goes downhill for the heroes.

And my response to that scene in Rogue One was as much horror as being impressed by how "bad ass" Vader is. Seriously, it had a horror-movie vibe to it, and it drove home, more effectively than any other scene in the film for me, the shear hopeless desperation of the Rebellion's struggle at that point, as well as the heroism of the individual rank and file troops. It made me care about the struggles of nameless extras, more even than the main characters, and made them the people on whom the entire war ultimately depended.


I just was bored by the struggle of those extras, because as an audience member, I already know that they're fucked. They're going to die at the hands of an effects driven space wizard or in a hail of red pew pew effects.
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

"People tell me, 'Bill, let it go. The Kennedy assassination was years ago. It was just the assassination of a President and the hijacking of our government by a totalitarian regime — who cares? Just let it go.' I say, 'All right then. That whole Jesus thing? Let it go! It was 2,000 years ago! Who cares?'"
- Bill Hicks

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-21 01:19am

Sure, you know they're fucked, just like you know that the plans will be safe in the end.

But their's something very effective, to me, about the fact that they fight on despite the hopelessness of the situation, and that ultimately, they succeed.

Tastes differ, of course, and it either works for you or it doesn't, but I thought that it was a very good scene.

Edit: And what's with the complaining about the effects? Where does this attitude come from, as if any use of effects or CG somehow robs a scene of all emotion? They are a tool- they can be used well or badly, and in my opinion this scene used them reasonably well.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13779
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Gandalf » 2017-03-21 01:32am

Are you referring to my use of the phrase "effects driven?"
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

"People tell me, 'Bill, let it go. The Kennedy assassination was years ago. It was just the assassination of a President and the hijacking of our government by a totalitarian regime — who cares? Just let it go.' I say, 'All right then. That whole Jesus thing? Let it go! It was 2,000 years ago! Who cares?'"
- Bill Hicks

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11335
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-03-21 01:39am

Yeah, this:

They're going to die at the hands of an effects driven space wizard or in a hail of red pew pew effects.


Their seems to be a lot of this sort of (and I apologize if I'm misinterpreting you here)... hostility towards effects, and CG in particular, and I don't really get it.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13779
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Everything Not Quite Right With - The End Scenes from Rogue One SPOILERS and yes its contains the Vader scene!

Postby Gandalf » 2017-03-21 01:45am

I have no issue with the use of special effects. My issue was that the sequence read more like a demonstration of "cool shit we can do now." It's not a Vader scene, but a carnage scene where Vader is involved.
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

"People tell me, 'Bill, let it go. The Kennedy assassination was years ago. It was just the assassination of a President and the hijacking of our government by a totalitarian regime — who cares? Just let it go.' I say, 'All right then. That whole Jesus thing? Let it go! It was 2,000 years ago! Who cares?'"
- Bill Hicks


Return to “Pure Star Wars”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests