The basic setup I get the impression (and with a few guesses), the Empire got pushed way way back, the New Republic mostly demilitarized, but supports the defense forces of member planets, the Resistance. Thus, the 'New Republic' is not exactly at war with the Empire/First Order with it's whole military, but they support the Resistance, who is, and who've been containing/push back the Imperial remnants, and if the First Order beats those defense forces and invaded member worlds, the New Republic would get involved more actively. However First Order was obviously building something in secret, and hit the New Republic's leadership and main base so they won't have to fight anything *but* the Resistance.
Batman wrote:Undecided. There's no obvious evidence he is but for a normal he did surprisingly well in his lightsabre duel with Kylo. Rey-who seems to be ridiculously strong in the Force-didn't do much better initially.
Note that Stormies have melee weapon training. The Riot trooper demonstrates that pretty well, there's a melee specialist class of Stormtrooper. And a shot to the side hurts anyone.
Undecided, but that performance is within range of a good normal, IMO. Kylo Ren's not a Vader or Maul would could dismantle foes even while badly wounded.
Hm, the Riot Trooper fight demonstrates a few things- One, that some Stormtroopers have training in the area, and two, Finn is around melee equal to one of those well-trained individuals.
Batman wrote:Then he should have sucked even more against Kylo, and yet he held his own for surprisingly long.
I'm saying that I think Kylo Ren sucks at lightsaber combat*. Which is why Finn did so well against him despite not being force sensitive.
So you did. My bad.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Which brings up another point. I really get the feeling that the New Republic and the Remnant (If it even exists, we've learned so little of the state of the galaxy) could be militarily exhausted and are fighting a sort of proxy war through the Resistance and the First Order.
How in the hell else would a splinter group be able to convert an entire planet into what is essentially a system destroying super weapon without some kind of help?
Could also help explain why the Republic would even allow this to occur at all (They must have know, their super base is so noticeable that there should be no way you wouldn't have at least some inkling that is existed.)
I think JJ just couldn't go without the crutch of a Rebellion thematically, so it still exists for no reason. He did the same thing in both Star Trek movies. We don't know why it still exists because JJ doesn't know why either.
I was reading Wookiepedia today trying to find something that make sense and when reading Finn's entry it appears some recently released non movie media has put together quite the extensive combat background for him. Which is odd, as Finn says flat out the the firefight at the beginning of the movie was his first.
Darth Tanner wrote:Seemingly the Republic/Empire doesn’t care enough about all that military equipment dumped in the sand but just leaves it to junk dealers.
Presumably all that equipment would require more resources to recover and scrap than either could spare.
"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."
Darth Tanner wrote:Seemingly the Republic/Empire doesn’t care enough about all that military equipment dumped in the sand but just leaves it to junk dealers.
Presumably all that equipment would require more resources to recover and scrap than either could spare.
Could be the terms of the truce prevents both the Republic/Empire to enter near Jakku.
Honestly, we know so little about what is going on in the galaxy at large .. it did not seem to matter for the story JJ wanted to tell.
Homo sapiens! What an inventive, invincible species! It's only been a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenseless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable... indomitable. ~ Dr.Who
You mean that story with a bad guy we don't know the stakes for, a Rebellion we don't know the stakes for, and a Galactic Republic we don't know the stakes for but was apparently so important the primary activity of the bad guys was to destroy it even though its mentioned a grand total of two times the whole movie? Yeah, it mattered.
A nice touch I just put together, on Rey's mind tricks- Kylo Ren.
He had just tried it on her repeatedly when trying to pierce her memories, she was copying him, that's why she thought to do it.
Sgt_Artyom wrote:Which brings up another point. I really get the feeling that the New Republic and the Remnant (If it even exists, we've learned so little of the state of the galaxy) could be militarily exhausted and are fighting a sort of proxy war through the Resistance and the First Order.
I interpreted the First Order as the Remnant now.
Could also help explain why the Republic would even allow this to occur at all (They must have know, their super base is so noticeable that there should be no way you wouldn't have at least some inkling that is existed.)
It's very big, but it's also made on one of their worlds (rather than being made in orbit of something), and likely in one of the most remote spaces they could. The Resistance likely doesn't survey all their worlds with any regularity.
Dartzap wrote:Can I have some confirmation/denial on one point?
Throughout the film, there is no real evidence (from my point of view) that Finn has force powers, and he seems to have all the grace with the lightsaber as a gundark ice skating. He, naturally, is more at home with blasters. The only reason Kylo noticed him was due to the emotional turmoil emanating from from a normally stoical stormie.
So is he force sensitive? Yay or nay?
I'd say yay, which would explain his resistance to the conditioning and his ability to use a lightsaber in a proficient manner.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it. Blank Yellow (NSFW)
What would force sensitivity have to do with using a lightsaber? He's a former Stormtrooper and proficient at it or not, most likely has some form of melee weapons training.
Jedi aren't good with the use of a lightsaber because they're Jedi, it's years of training with the weapon that allows them to achieve any sort of proficiency.
Mange wrote:
In the (poor) novel Aftermath, Mon Mothma put forward a vote to cut the military forces of the Republic by 90 percent once the war with the Empire was over (the remaining ten percent would be kept as a peacekeeping force). The peace treaty with the Empire (locking the Empire within the Core and Inner Rim) following the Imperial defeat at Jakku could've had a role why the Republic didn't fight the First Order directly.
So...The Galactic Empire still exists in the new canon, retaining full control of the core and the inner rim...with the New Republic only controlling the Outer Rim? Oh and the Republic went for savage budget cuts, while having to control a more spread out territory, compared to the more military inclined Empire...which largely retains the galaxy's population and industrial base.
Sounds like the Republic/Rebels were the real losers, what with having to be content with loser things. Like only controlling sparsely populated and less developed territories, gutting their military by 90%, and planting seat of government on Chandrilla (ceding Courscant to enduring Imperial rule.)
I was certainly entertained. Though I have to say that upon reflection the plot is falling apart in many ways. Unless a few odd things with little basis in what we see in the film turns out true.
On the biggest issue, that of Rey's incredible abilities, I suspect that she actually was trained as a Jedi before being abandoned on Jakku. Assuming that she is Luke's daughter, which given her interactions with Han, Leia and ultimately Luke is likely, she likely trained with Kylo initially before he was corrupted by the Dark Side. She then had that memory erased to protect her and was left on Jakku. Her suddenly being able to do things is her remembering her training. Notice that she only sees a flashback of being left on Jakku when she picks up Anakin's lightsaber. Though that doesn't entirely explain how she knew that her family was supposed to come back for her.
The next issue, that of the Millennium Falcon being left on Jakku, makes me wonder if it was intentionally left for her to discover when she needed a way offworld. I also wonder if Luke somewhat planned for his discover to occur when Rey came back into the galaxy properly. He could have coordinated with Maz Katana for that purpose. Notice that she subtly deflected the question of how she ended up with that lightsaber. I also wonder if it was indeed a coincidence that R2 reactivated immediately after Starkiller base was destroyed. Perhaps Luke was waiting for it to be destroyed before he wished his location to be revealed.
As for Finn, I highly suspect that he is indeed Force sensitive, with the issue that he has absolutely no real training. As Havok noted, it certainly nicely explains how he resisted the indoctrination when he was tasked to kill. I also feel like he is likely going to be a love interest for Rey, they indeed have excellent chemistry. Originally I had thought Poe would have that role, but he now seems closer to Wedge Antilles than Han Solo in terms of his role in the overall series. Poe was indeed awesome as a pilot. He seems to already have the onscreen kill count victory. He pulled off Ace in 30 seconds over Katana's castle.
Phasma also indeed turned out to be a complete paper tiger. Just like Boba Fett in that respect. The random stormtrooper with an energy staff was a tougher enemy than her. It also made virtually no sense that she would just deactivate the shields for no reason.
On the minimalism issue, it seems like, in an attempt to avoid feeling like the prequels, they went too far and avoided any discussion of politics. This meant that the scale of events felt extremely small as there was no wider context, as Patroklos notes. If one looks at the events themselves it was easily larger than ANH. Especially if one considers the fact that the galaxy is likely splintered such that destroying a entire New Republic star system means a great deal more than it would have in the days of the Old Republic.
Consider that AOTC also completely revolved around two worlds and that TPM revolved around one. The truth is that those films weren't at all larger, it's just that we had an idea of the wider context that affected the etire galaxy. Here, in an attempt to avoid feeling like the prequels, they avoiding giving any context which left the films feeling odd.
Adam Reynolds wrote:She then had that memory erased to protect her and was left on Jakku.
I keep seeing this floating around. What on earth makes people think that this? We see Rey is abandoned at maybe 5 or 6 years old and she's been carving notches- waiting- for a long time. Secondly if you wanted to protect her, why not leave her with her aunty (assuming she's Luke's daughter)?[/quote]
Little easter egg though I doubt too many caught it.
In one of the X-Wing cockpit scenes, missiles are launched at them.
That beep. That proximity increasing beep. It's the same one from X-Wing vs Tie Fighter, that tells you how screwed you are. Plus, mention of 'Mag Pulses' on imperial fighter ordinance. Throwing a silly reference to the PC gamers.
---
Who was that old guy in the beginning of the movie in the Ben Kenobi cosplay? I made a joke to a friend about 'Kyle Katarn sure let himself go', before we proceeded to make more jokes crapping over the EU, but still. He was not remotely explained either.
I think it was very well done, for the most part. For one thing, Abrams pretty much nailed the tone and overall aesthetic of Star Wars - and not just by simply aping Episode IV. This actually felt like a "real" Star Wars movie, unlike the last 3, which seemed to take place mostly in Palpatine's posh office.
That said, I mean, I can obviously understand the criticisms about this movie being way too close to Episode IV in plot structure and visuals, from the "not-Tatooine" planet where Rey lives, to the Cantina rip-off, to the Rebel Base that looked exactly like Yavin IV, and the "not-Death Star" thing they blew up.
I can understand that criticism... I just don't know how much it matters. The new characters are all very good. And I'm surprised how much of a good villain Kylo Ren turned out to be. At first he seemed like a shitty clone of Darth Vader, but after he took off his mask, his personality and motivations as an insecure villain really took off. His struggle to come back to the light side, and his decision to final overcome all that by murdering his father, was some pretty powerful stuff. And I think Rey is pretty good as the new Luke. In particular I didn't really feel that she was too "Mary Sue"-ish or whatever. Yeah, she inexplicably knows how to fly a starship, but whatever, I mean Luke picked up flying an X-wing in like 2 seconds. And her defeating Kylo Ren (sort of) didn't feel too absurd, at least, not anymore absurd than is to be expected from a feel-good Hollywood moment. Plus, Kylo Ren was obviously not really trying to kill her (he wanted to train her), he was badly wounded, and the planet was collapsing all around them - it's not too hard to accept.
And as for all the complaints about "minimalism"... I mean, seriously guys, look - I love good world building as much as the next SD.net poster, but I think in this case the minimalism is a good thing. Without minimalism you get bullshit like the Prequel-style battles, like the battle of Geonosis, where essentially the entire thing is an incomprehensible CGI orgasm with a billion polygons shooting other polygons. The action in The Force Awakens was very focused, very easy to follow, and therefore a lot more compelling.
My main complaint is the whole attack on the "not-Death Star" sequence. It was too rushed, didn't really have a substantial setup, and was too reminiscent of some kind of hybrid action sequence between A New Hope and the Battle of Endor. (Seriously, I swear at times if they just spliced in some footage from Lando's fleet in Return of the Jedi, I don't think anyone would even notice.) Also, the way Han sneeks everyone into the base, by jumping out of Hyperspace in the planet's atmosphere, is supposed to be this extremely risky move that likely will get everyone killed... yet they don't really build up to it, or dwell enough on how dangerous it is. They're just like, whatever, let's try this... okay it worked, NEXT SCENE!
And yeah, it's obvious that the whole political situation is a bit incoherent... it basically seems that JJ Abrams just wanted to do a straightforward Rebellion vs Empire movie, but had to change the names and details a bit (since this isn't officially an actual reboot), and the result is a lot of confusion where it's unclear exactly what the "Resistance" really is... At first I thought that the Resistance and the First Order were supposed to be like, smaller scale groups with the backings of larger Galactic powers - but then it seems like the First Order is pretty much on par with the Republic. It's also not really clear why there's even a "Resistance", when the New Republic itself is supposed to be a large political entity that keeps the First Order in check. I guess the "Resistance" is like a "terrorist/guerrilla" group that the Republic uses to conduct proxy wars or something. Regardless of the details, it's pretty obvious JJ Abrams didn't really care much about any of that, and he just really wanted to do a straightforward Rebellion vs. Empire movie.
But despite those criticisms, the new characters were great, and the movie had a lot of emotional weight, an almost perfect tone, and a great villain. The opening scene where the First Order massacres the village was particularly great. All I can say is this was definitely a pleasure to watch. In fact, I think it was almost a perfect movie up until the second half, when the First Order blew up "not-Coruscant". After that, the scenes with Kylo Ren and Han Solo, and Kylo Ren and Rey were fantastic, but the whole "assault on not-Death Star" thing was really just unnecessary and way too much of a retread of ANH/ROTJ*. I think they should have gotten rid of the whole super-weapon plot, and just found another way to have the confrontation between Solo and Ren, and then Rey and Ren. But I wouldn't be surprised if Disney put it in the contract that there needed to be another Death Star or something.
*I almost get the feeling Abrams realized that, since there's a scene on "not-Yavin IV" where the Rebels discuss their attack strategy to fly into not-Death Star and blow up the reactor or whatever. The dialogue seems almost intentionally rushed and self-aware... Solo even says something casually like "yeah, there's always an opening" or whatever, in a tone implying "yeah, another one of these stupid things... yeah I've only blown up like 20 of them before, this should be no problem. There's probably an exhaust port, or a reactor or some shit, or whatever. Wink wink."
I feel that by really forcing down the 'Here, look, we're going to cleanse the prequels and make sure you know this is Star Wars by being ANH', that actually opens them up GREATLY in storytelling potential for Eps 8 and 9. Because now, we no longer have the same setup as before, and it introduces the new drama: Kylo and his training, Rey and Finn figuring themselves out, and presumably an introduction to a more complex political situation NEXT movie (since this one had to be shot outside of more boring conference rooms). Plus, a revisit of the force instead of it being video game crap, but a reflection of FEELINGS.
Thinking more on it, Ren's fanboyism at comparing himself to Vader really is for the audience. You will compare him to Vader. But as a character, he's a hell of a lot more torn up than Anakin and Pandabear Padamamae were.
Kojiro wrote:
I keep seeing this floating around. What on earth makes people think that this? We see Rey is abandoned at maybe 5 or 6 years old and she's been carving notches- waiting- for a long time. Secondly if you wanted to protect her, why not leave her with her aunty (assuming she's Luke's daughter)?
There are two problems this would address. The first is that she is far too powerful for a Jedi with no training and the second is that she seems obviously connected to the Skywalkers yet has no apparent memory of this nor does anyone else seem to have any significant memory of her. The only one who seems to have any idea who she is being Maz Kanata is also interesting in this light.
Another issue bothers me somewhat in this movie. If Maz Kanata is connected to the Force in some sense, why was she not a threat to the Empire when they purged the Jedi? This is related to the classic problem of new characters in a sequel who should have had some impact on previous events.
Another random thing I just noticed is that Rey and Finn both, nearly simultaneously, went through the refusal of the call on Takodana(Maz Kanata's world).
I still like my pet theory. Luke is training a bunch of padawans. A woman shows up and somehow her and Luke hook you. Maybe she was sent by Snoke, maybe just a random. Ben Solo sees the truth that even the great Skywalker can give in to his passions. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. He decides that his grandfather had the right idea, nudged along by Snoke and falls to the dark side. He slaughters the rest of the padawans and Luke disappears. Meanwhile Rey's mother finds out she's pregnant and realises the child is going to be a threat/hunted. She tries to go back to Luke because who better to protect her? But Luke is gone. The mother is on the run for some time (hiding out on a backwater desert planet) until she feels the First Order closing in on her. She abandons her child to lead the FO away, intending to return. Unfortunately she never does.
It maintains her connection to Skywalker, explains why Luke feels responsible for the massacre (which it partially explains) and why the child of one of the most important men in the galaxy is on a ruined world alone, waiting for a pick up. It's not like the kid can be dropped off with Leia- she's hanging out leading a secret group from a secret base. And it explains why Luke doesn't come for her- he simply doesn't know she exists, just like Vader didn't know he existed. Otherwise you have to explain why Luke isn't looking for her, excluding he's just a shitty father.
Kojiro wrote:
I keep seeing this floating around. What on earth makes people think that this? We see Rey is abandoned at maybe 5 or 6 years old and she's been carving notches- waiting- for a long time. Secondly if you wanted to protect her, why not leave her with her aunty (assuming she's Luke's daughter)?
There are two problems this would address. The first is that she is far too powerful for a Jedi with no training and the second is that she seems obviously connected to the Skywalkers yet has no apparent memory of this nor does anyone else seem to have any significant memory of her. The only one who seems to have any idea who she is being Maz Kanata is also interesting in this light.
Another issue bothers me somewhat in this movie. If Maz Kanata is connected to the Force in some sense, why was she not a threat to the Empire when they purged the Jedi? This is related to the classic problem of new characters in a sequel who should have had some impact on previous events.
Another random thing I just noticed is that Rey and Finn both, nearly simultaneously, went through the refusal of the call on Takodana(Maz Kanata's world).
That's cool and all, but there is noting in the movie that even hits at this. Its just your personal fanfic.
I don't think CGI abomination lady is force sensitive in the slightest. She the old hat at the bar and knows all the big names personally. You don't need to be a Jedi to understand the histories, emotions, and hopes and dreams of friends. We all have friends right? Isn't that how it work
Watched it and it is safely set as being a good film to switch your brain off to enjoy. Lots of pretty explosions, novelty and simplistic setting for any newcomer to Star Wars to pick up without an issue. Naturally that setting is woefully simplistic that it quickly suffers from not explaining the greater context this film takes place in.
I started getting annoyed at Ray the moment she magically starts fucking with the Falcon - At first I thought it was a Falcon-Like Freighter which she found with the mention of EU YT name. Thus it would have been a refreshing acknowledgement the Falcon is part of a production line of ships which could lead her to finally meeting the REAL Falcon and give some sense of why she has experience messing with a similar frame.
Instead, the Falcon just happens to be sitting around because Han conveniently lost it and super-character knows how to fly it and fix it with no explanation.
So far the only explanation I can come up with for her magical abilities is:
She has actually been working and flying the Falcon before while on Jakku. She was supposedly working for the dude that stole it from Han and I think she mentions she has been flying so... logical conclusion is that she has been around the Falcon for some time and possibly been flying it. Only way it makes any damn sense for her to know anything about it.
- X-Wings have fantastic accuracy with their weapons they can literally hit storm troopers on the ground with pin-point accuracy. Not only is that mind breaking implausible, being hit by a ship - to - ship laser weapon has the same effect as being hit by a regular ground weapon. I cannot really believe people could make a scene like that without understanding you are essentially showing aircraft cannons hitting infantry.
- Scenes with Han using the bowcaster as if he has never seen it before. It is not as if Han has spent decades fighting side by side with the damn thing.
- Han dying, dramatically it works and I suppose it makes sense. That said, I found it rather amusing since out of all the old cast Harrison Ford is the only one that seems to have aged well and have the charisma to really keep pace. Carrie Fisher was just dull beyond belief and I do not expect much from Mark Hamil.
- The world building is so extremely thin that even relevant information that should come up naturally does not. I cannot fathom why you would do this unless a pay off is going to come later or it is a REALLY bad attempt at trying to leave space for a new EU to go wild in.
I liked it but there was way too much writer's fiat going on. So much "just happens" to have occurred in a way that's convenient to the plot. A few contrivances can be forgiven but this movie had so many that it didn't even try to justify them.
Sgt_Artyom wrote:What would force sensitivity have to do with using a lightsaber? He's a former Stormtrooper and proficient at it or not, most likely has some form of melee weapons training.
Jedi aren't good with the use of a lightsaber because they're Jedi, it's years of training with the weapon that allows them to achieve any sort of proficiency.
Jedi are good with a lightsabre because they are telepathic, telekinetic and precognetic.
For Finn to injure a battle-experienced Force user in a lightsabre duel is more than I expected and reflects poorly on said force user.
Even if Ben had no actual lightsabre duel training (Jedi are extinct, why bother training to beat them) his Force abilities demonstrated elsewhere should have easily dispatched Finn.
Channel72 wrote:And as for all the complaints about "minimalism"... I mean, seriously guys, look - I love good world building as much as the next SD.net poster, but I think in this case the minimalism is a good thing. Without minimalism you get bullshit like the Prequel-style battles, like the battle of Geonosis, where essentially the entire thing is an incomprehensible CGI orgasm with a billion polygons shooting other polygons.
You're missing the third option. Outside of avoidable technical errors, minimalism happens when a bad storyteller tries to make a small story interesting by giving it big stakes. Instead of scaling up the story, you can scale the stakes back down. If you want to tell a story about Han, Rey and Finn going on an adventure then make the stakes something worth three people risking their lives, not yet another bloody planet-killing superweapon.
