Star Wars VII - Trailer Discussion

[Irbis]

Even Darth Maul thought he was Darth Maul. If he is only ever referred to as Darth Maul on screen, there is no reason to call him anything else in the script. Sidious gave him the title behind his masters back. Asajj Ventriss called herself Sith when she was Dooku's not-so-secret minion. Darth Vader had secret and not-so-secret apprentices and enforcers who he motivated with promises of Elevation too. The Emperor had backup apprentices in case he had to kill Vader etc. It is not uncommon practice.

Most of these examples, though, are from time of the Empire or Clone Wars, with Jedi Order being unable to focus their full force on Sith hunt. And besides, likes of Ventress or Starkiller were really seemingly just Dark Jedi bouncers with purely combat training. Maul had Sith title, lore training and Sith face markings, so I'd say he was odd one out.

Even outside the EU it is pretty obvious what they are doing. Palpatine manipulated Anakin for decades, just waiting for Dooku to die. Hell, I like to speculate that Palpatine arranged the murder of his mother.

Decades? Didn't Dooku whole Sith allegiance (and maximum Anakin manipulation period) lasted about 9 years at best...?

As a strategy it works pretty well. Think about it. The actual sith lords send out their subordinate dark jedi minions to perform the dirty work of their byzantine plots. They are directed and thus appear organized. They might even be given or take on the title Darth, explicitly for the purpose of fooling the Jedi, who have not found an actual Sith Lord in over a thousand years, and thus have no institutional memory of what one looks like.

The problem - you are conspiracy of two against force tens of thousands strong. Your only shield is secrecy - so whoever your agent is, it has to be someone able to outfight random Jedi he might meet by accident. Otherwise, the conspiracy is blown and Jedi will swarm the area looking for any shred of data about this rogue force user.

If there is anything making sense, IMO, it's making him deliberately under-trained and saber-less so that Jedi believe he was self taught and let the trail grow cold. Or strong enough to kill anyone who might spot him. Just good Dark Jedi is worst of both worlds - not strong enough to silence enemy, too conspicuous to be ignored. Adding 'Sith' to that is like trying to conspire in USA calling yourself ISIS - it's going to raise so many red flags on Coruscant a thousand years of hiding and sacrifices becomes pointless.

Then there is operational secrecy. Conspiracy of two is good. Three and more is asking for trouble, especially when one of the three risks everything if anyone else learns of hidden others. Even if we assume they do have a small pool of promising candidates just in case, why they would give them Sith Lord title?

They have some information on the Rule of Two that is as old as Yoda, so they assume that when they found someone well-trained in jedi combat that they did not train themselves that this person must be a Sith Lord, particularly because he calls himself Darth to throw them off if captured or if intel leaks.

Then why the shocked reaction? If Jedi knew Sith might be out there, they wouldn't ridicule Qui Gon. No, the movie hints they thought Sith were really dead and the only reason why Qui Gon proposed it was a Sith was because it was someone with evil facial markings able to outfight Jedi Master. Ergo, real Sith Lord. Maul never even talks to a Jedi so they couldn't know it from that source.

The minions protect and isolate the apprentice, who everyone assumes is the master, while the master hangs out in the background isolated from detection with a backup apprentice of his or her own.

That would work in Clone Wars, or in case of being found out, but why would they intentionally give enemy leads on your Evil Millennium Long Conspiracy? And also, if so, where are the backup apprentices of Plagueis? In movies, Palpatine feels like the one and only evil boss, learning real evil mastermind behind everything was killed in off hand one liner would be really bad storytelling, IMO.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Most of these examples, though, are from time of the Empire or Clone Wars, with Jedi Order being unable to focus their full force on Sith hunt. And besides, likes of Ventress or Starkiller were really seemingly just Dark Jedi bouncers with purely combat training. Maul had Sith title, lore training and Sith face markings, so I'd say he was odd one out.

Sure they could post TPM and before AoTC. They were not at war yet, the CIS faction had yet to arise. They had 10 years.

As for Ventress, the HELL she was only combat trained. She was trained as a Jedi before she fell (when her master died), and Dooku pretty obviously trained her pretty well, because she was able to teach her own male Zabrak killing machine (Darth Maul's brother, incidentally). Maul was raised by Palpatine from infancy in secret on Mustafar. Plagueis being Plagueis knew about it and let it happen, precisely because Maul was more expendable than Palpatine who was embedded in the Republic's political system. He can get his hands dirty, be seen, go out and murder people, get killed etc, without directly exposing his master. He is a cutout. A highly skilled cutout.

Decades? Didn't Dooku whole Sith allegiance (and maximum Anakin manipulation period) lasted about 9 years at best...?

Fair point. Decade and change. Palpatine likely started his manipulation when Anakin was 8, 10 years to AoTC, 2-3 years from AoTC to RoTS.

The problem - you are conspiracy of two against force tens of thousands strong. Your only shield is secrecy - so whoever your agent is, it has to be someone able to outfight random Jedi he might meet by accident. Otherwise, the conspiracy is blown and Jedi will swarm the area looking for any shred of data about this rogue force user.

That depends on what the agent is being used for. If you KNOW you have to kill a couple of Jedi, you want someone competent enough to do it. Someone Not You. That agent can be semi-isolated. He does not even have to know who his masters are necessarily. Raise them on Mustafar with a couple psychotic nanny droids, give him lessons under cowl or through holo-emitter. He never has to see your face. Never has to know you are really senator palpatine. Never has to know he is the Secret Apprentice rather than the Open Apprentice. Never has to know Darth Plagueis even exists. Because presumably you can shield your thoughts from the Apprentice.

Until he is ready to kill you.

Then there is operational secrecy. Conspiracy of two is good. Three and more is asking for trouble, especially when one of the three risks everything if anyone else learns of hidden others. Even if we assume they do have a small pool of promising candidates just in case, why they would give them Sith Lord title?

So they think they are legit. So your catspaws in the Trade Federation think YOU are the master rather than the apprentice. And you dont risk Opsec if he is captured, because you dont have to tell him everything, or even tell him the truth. He cannot reveal what he does not know.

Then why the shocked reaction? If Jedi knew Sith might be out there, they wouldn't ridicule Qui Gon.

They didnt ridicule him. They were simply shocked because they have not seen a sith since Yoda was born. They needed confirmation. It is, afterall, pretty reasonable to think something is extinct if you have not seen one for a thousand years.

the only reason why Qui Gon proposed it was a Sith was because it was someone with evil facial markings able to outfight Jedi Master.

Here's the thing. While there are other force traditions in the Galaxy, the Jedi have something of a monopoly on the whole "force users with lightsabers" thing. They hold the secrets of saber construction, they are the ones who keep manuals on lightsaber forms etc that no one else really has. So if someone comes up to a Jedi with a lightsaber using defined saber forms, strong in the Dark Side of the Force, but who was not trained by the Jedi (and Qui Gon would have used ship sensors etc to get images and compare them to the archives if possible, or look for male Zabrak's within the order who's locations were not known) the logical tentative conclusion is Sith.

That would work in Clone Wars, or in case of being found out, but why would they intentionally give enemy leads on your Evil Millennium Long Conspiracy?

Because at Some Point, in order to Take Over the Galaxy, you have to act openly.

And also, if so, where are the backup apprentices of Plagueis?

I dont know. He may not have had them. Plagueis himself had a rival apprentice named Darth Venamis however (who he had to kill after killing his own master).

In movies, Palpatine feels like the one and only evil boss, learning real evil mastermind behind everything was killed in off hand one liner would be really bad storytelling, IMO.

Not really. After his election as Supreme Chancellor, the plan was All Palpatine.

[Purple]

Honestly the more I think about it the more it seems that the rule of two is not really a rule but a guideline. And that it serves as something to deceive your apprentices more than anything. Tell him he is your only pupil and have him think he is fooling you by taking up one of his own. Than send your other 3 to kill him if he gets cocky. This might also explain why Yoda seemed to have known about it. It's the kind of thing you want to intentionally leak to make your enemy think there is few of you.

[Adam Reynolds]

Why are we still discussing EU references that are no longer canon?

Honestly the more I think about it the more it seems that the rule of two is not really a rule but a guideline. And that it serves as something to deceive your apprentices more than anything. Tell him he is your only pupil and have him think he is fooling you by taking up one of his own. Than send your other 3 to kill him if he gets cocky. This might also explain why Yoda seemed to have known about it. It's the kind of thing you want to intentionally leak to make your enemy think there is few of you.

This isn't what we see in the films, the pair of Sith plotting against each other and trying to find replacement apprentices. Both Dooku with Obi-Wan and Palpatine with Anakin proposition their potential apprentice to kill the current master or apprentice, as do Vader and Palpatine with Luke. We never see any attempt for the Sith to have more than two members.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Why are we still discussing EU references that are no longer canon?

Honestly the more I think about it the more it seems that the rule of two is not really a rule but a guideline. And that it serves as something to deceive your apprentices more than anything. Tell him he is your only pupil and have him think he is fooling you by taking up one of his own. Than send your other 3 to kill him if he gets cocky. This might also explain why Yoda seemed to have known about it. It's the kind of thing you want to intentionally leak to make your enemy think there is few of you.

This isn't what we see in the films, the pair of Sith plotting against each other and trying to find replacement apprentices. Both Dooku with Obi-Wan and Palpatine with Anakin proposition their potential apprentice to kill the current master or apprentice, as do Vader and Palpatine with Luke. We never see any attempt for the Sith to have more than two members.

Of course they do. What are you trying to lure a sithling with? Power. That is what. Asajj Ventress was, as I recall, more than just an enforcer. She was Dooku's prospective Official Apprentice. To the point that Palpatine felt threatened by her and ordered her killed.

Just because you say "Hey, lets join up and kill the emperor" does not mean you have to do it Right Now.

[Havok]

Gawd the EU is horrible.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Gawd the EU is horrible.

At this point, we are mostly not talking EU, but stuff directly observable or inferable from the new canon.

[Havok]

Uh, not really. All the shit about Plageuis is EU, all the shit about Maul and Dooku prior to ROTS is EU. EVERYTHING about the history of the Sith is EU. All the supposed dark Jedi are EU.

And as of right now there really is no new canon.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Uh, not really. All the shit about Plageuis is EU, all the shit about Maul and Dooku prior to ROTS is EU. EVERYTHING about the history of the Sith is EU. All the supposed dark Jedi are EU.

And as of right now there really is no new canon.

No. It is not. Plageuis is hinted at by Palpatine and the look on his face when he tells that story says everything that needs saying. The time frame for Dooku's apprenticeship is in the AoTC, because was Darth Tyranus and he is the one who secured the genetic material for the clone troopers (as laid out in AoTC). Maul's stuff was laid out in the Clone Wars cartoons which are still canon.

All Plagueis did was the nitty gritty details.

[Terralthra]

Asajj Ventress is also not EU, as she appears in both Clone Wars series.

[jwl]

On the count of dark jedi, we have a brand new one appearing in rebels.

[Havok]

Uh, not really. All the shit about Plageuis is EU, all the shit about Maul and Dooku prior to ROTS is EU. EVERYTHING about the history of the Sith is EU. All the supposed dark Jedi are EU.

And as of right now there really is no new canon.

No. It is not. Plageuis is hinted at by Palpatine and the look on his face when he tells that story says everything that needs saying. The time frame for Dooku's apprenticeship is in the AoTC, because was Darth Tyranus and he is the one who secured the genetic material for the clone troopers (as laid out in AoTC). Maul's stuff was laid out in the Clone Wars cartoons which are still canon.

All Plagueis did was the nitty gritty details.

Plagueis is hinted at by Palpatine, very correct, but it is the garbage ass EU that makes Palpatine now have a Master during or right before, or throughout The Phantom Menace. I guess Plageuis is the Menace not Palpatine. That shit just cheapens everything?

The EU takes every opportunity to shit all over the movies.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Plagueis is hinted at by Palpatine, very correct, but it is the garbage ass EU that makes Palpatine now have a Master during or right before, or throughout The Phantom Menace. I guess Plageuis is the Menace not Palpatine. That shit just cheapens everything?

The EU takes every opportunity to shit all over the movies.

The Menace is the Sith. Not extinct but alive, moving in the shadows with a centuries-old plot to infiltrate the republic's political system and take over from within. While the Dark Lord went off mission to experiment with Life and Death, his apprentice worked the objective and cultivated a literal army of catspaws who never knew he was just the apprentice, trained his own apprentice (to do the dirty work, and take over seamlessly later), and when he was ready... tricked his paranoid master into finally falling asleep, then killed him.

How does that cheapen anything?

There are parts of the EU that do so, but not that.

[Purple]

How does that cheapen anything?

Well, from my observation of his posts about SW in general so far he has an image of the events in his head and anything that goes against that is spoiling the story for him. Either it's destroying characters or cheapening the story or what ever. But ultimately it's just different and he hates it.

[jwl]

How does that cheapen anything?

Well, from my observation of his posts about SW in general so far he has an image of the events in his head and anything that goes against that is spoiling the story for him. Either it's destroying characters or cheapening the story or what ever. But ultimately it's just different and he hates it.

If that's the case, episode VII will be interesting.

[Alyrium Denryle]

How does that cheapen anything?

Well, from my observation of his posts about SW in general so far he has an image of the events in his head and anything that goes against that is spoiling the story for him. Either it's destroying characters or cheapening the story or what ever. But ultimately it's just different and he hates it.

That is both really funny and... kind of sad. Lucas cannot write for shit. Good story-board, but dialogue, details (plot hole avoidance), characterization, and respecting his fans are all big buckets of fail for the man. There is a lot of sh in the EU, but there are some disgustingly talented authors in there too. To discard all of it--some of the best parts really--because it "cheapens" George Lucas' writing is just...

[Adam Reynolds]

That is both really funny and... kind of sad. Lucas cannot write for shit. Good story-board, but dialogue, details (plot hole avoidance), characterization, and respecting his fans are all big buckets of fail for the man. There is a lot of sh in the EU, but there are some disgustingly talented authors in there too. To discard all of it--some of the best parts really--because it "cheapens" George Lucas' writing is just...

Are you really putting the EU above the films? The prequels are less than perfect, but what has the EU done that is better? Some of it may be well executed, but the overall ideas are overwhelmingly crap in terms of fitting into Star Wars. For every good idea there are at least a dozen bad ones, even in the better stories

Lets look at what was often claimed as the best: Mara Jade and Thrawn. We have a cheap Vader knockoff as a love interest and a strategist that is perfect until he isn't. Palpatine as shown in the preqeuls is far better written than Thrawn in terms of his planning. Thrawn is a character designed for wankery, while Palpatine's plans actually make a degree of sense in that he is forced to improvise the overwhelming majority of the time. Palpatine also has the advantage of Force based insight which allows him to predict and thus change the future, which justifies both his runaway success and ultimate failure in a way that could never be said for Thrawn. This is not to mention Zahn's problems with minimalism.

Let's look at the EU from the prequel era that I generally considered the best: Cloak of Deception and Labyrinth of Evil. The fundamental problem with those stories is that they told things that weren't necessary. We're not telling A Thousand and One Nights here, it is fine for there to be minor unanswered questions in a story. The larger problem with those works is that they are addressing supposed plot holes in the films, an issue that has caused people like RLM to bring them up in critical reviews of the prequels.

As for the ideas about Plagueis versus Sidious, while the basic story as told in ROTS was interesting, the problem was the idea that it needed to be directly tied into the films. The events of TPM were interesting and Plagueis's death was interesting but those two stories should never have been told together as it weakens both.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Are you really putting the EU above the films?

Are you really unable to read?

Let me rephrase, for the benefit of those with poor reading comprehension skills.

1) George Lucas cannot write. His talents extend to producing and storyboard. Dont let him write or direct
2) His writing--particularly for the prequels--is so bad, that cheapening Vader's origin story further than what he did is almost metaphysically impossible.
3) Some of the EU is actually good. Doing the job of filling in the gaping holes in characterization and plot that Lucas simply cannot do credibly, and doing so in a way that only improves the story.

The prequels are less than perfect, but what has the EU done that is better?

Shatterpoint, Plagueis, Anything involving Kyle Katarn, a lot of the Old Republic and ancient history related stuff. More beside that, but that is just what I like and am familiar with. With the standard being "better than the prequels", the list almost axiomatically has to be rather extensive.

Evidence:

Jar Jar

Anakin being characterized as a mentally unstable narcissist with stalker tendencies who the Jedi Order permitted to be so, for years, well before the beginning of the Clone Wars.

Telling, not showing. All The Time

HUGE holes in character relationships and how they originate. For example, what did Anakin do precisely to induce Mace Windu to not trust him, that did not actually earn Anakin mandatory therapy sessions?

Speaking of which: The Jedi Order being seemingly institutionally incapable of dealing with one of its members who is in obvious psychological distress, despite the glaringly obvious absolute necessity that it have such capacity given the nature of the line of work they are in.

"She's lost the will to live"

Anakin's complete lack of inductive or deductive reasoning skills. Like, for example: Maybe Palpatine, the admitted Sith Lord, was lying about being able to save your wife. He did afterall orchestrate the Entire Fucking Clone War.

Anakin Jumping the Crazy Train. Going from "I need him alive to help me save my wife" to "I shall now murder children because the Jedi are evil, somehow."

The Jedi Council pointedly not investigating what Sipho Dias (however you spell it) and a guy named Tyranus were doing setting up a clone army in its name. Never taking a look at what these troops were being conditioned to do. Never taking a look at the security data on Kamino to find out who this person is, despite the obvious connection to Count Dooku by way of the genetic donor.

The list of stupid that lies deep at the core of every chain of events in the prequels goes on and on.

[The Romulan Republic]

That is both really funny and... kind of sad. Lucas cannot write for shit. Good story-board, but dialogue, details (plot hole avoidance), characterization, and respecting his fans are all big buckets of fail for the man. There is a lot of sh in the EU, but there are some disgustingly talented authors in there too. To discard all of it--some of the best parts really--because it "cheapens" George Lucas' writing is just...

Are you really putting the EU above the films? The prequels are less than perfect, but what has the EU done that is better? Some of it may be well executed, but the overall ideas are overwhelmingly crap in terms of fitting into Star Wars. For every good idea there are at least a dozen bad ones, even in the better stories

Lets look at what was often claimed as the best: Mara Jade and Thrawn. We have a cheap Vader knockoff as a love interest and a strategist that is perfect until he isn't. Palpatine as shown in the preqeuls is far better written than Thrawn in terms of his planning. Thrawn is a character designed for wankery, while Palpatine's plans actually make a degree of sense in that he is forced to improvise the overwhelming majority of the time. Palpatine also has the advantage of Force based insight which allows him to predict and thus change the future, which justifies both his runaway success and ultimate failure in a way that could never be said for Thrawn. This is not to mention Zahn's problems with minimalism.

Let's look at the EU from the prequel era that I generally considered the best: Cloak of Deception and Labyrinth of Evil. The fundamental problem with those stories is that they told things that weren't necessary. We're not telling A Thousand and One Nights here, it is fine for there to be minor unanswered questions in a story. The larger problem with those works is that they are addressing supposed plot holes in the films, an issue that has caused people like RLM to bring them up in critical reviews of the prequels.

As for the ideas about Plagueis versus Sidious, while the basic story as told in ROTS was interesting, the problem was the idea that it needed to be directly tied into the films. The events of TPM were interesting and Plagueis's death was interesting but those two stories should never have been told together as it weakens both.

Thrawn was never perfect (except in the eyes of his fans perhaps), and aside from the basic story of a Dark Side follower who is redeemed, Jade isn't really like Vader.

[Havok]

How does that cheapen anything?

Well, from my observation of his posts about SW in general so far he has an image of the events in his head and anything that goes against that is spoiling the story for him. Either it's destroying characters or cheapening the story or what ever. But ultimately it's just different and he hates it.

Well obviously you are an idiot.

My gripe with the EU is and has always been this; The EU needs to conform to the movies and not the other way around.
Unfortunately, since most EU is crap they twist their own events to try to make the movies work for what bullshit they come up with which cheapens it.

Examples: Palpatine returning. X-Wings being the cutting edge fighter. TIE Fighters sucking. A million dark Jedi. Hundreds of Sith... I could go on and on.

[Havok]

How does that cheapen anything?

Well, from my observation of his posts about SW in general so far he has an image of the events in his head and anything that goes against that is spoiling the story for him. Either it's destroying characters or cheapening the story or what ever. But ultimately it's just different and he hates it.

That is both really funny and... kind of sad. Lucas cannot write for shit. Good story-board, but dialogue, details (plot hole avoidance), characterization, and respecting his fans are all big buckets of fail for the man. There is a lot of sh in the EU, but there are some disgustingly talented authors in there too. To discard all of it--some of the best parts really--because it "cheapens" George Lucas' writing is just...

It's not about the writing you twit. It's about the story and characters. I don't give a fuck who writes a Palpatine returns story, it cheapens the entire point of Luke's journey. As I have said a million times... "Oh you were willing to sacrifice your life to redeem your father and destroy evil? Well, just fucking kidding, you have to do it again!"

And when you add another Sith, and another and another Sith, again, it makes the whole destroy all evil thing pretty fucking stupid, because HAHA just kidding, there's some more evil over here, it's the exact same evil but totally different!

The sad thing is you can't see the difference between just branding some bullshit story Star Wars and actually adding to the story. I mean, please tell me, which EU masterpiece makes Star Wars better?

[Havok]

1) George Lucas cannot write. His talents extend to producing and storyboard. Dont let him write or direct.

Right... American Grafitti, Indiana Jones, Star Wars, THX1138, Willow... what a hack.

2) His writing--particularly for the prequels--is so bad, that cheapening Vader's origin story further than what he did is almost metaphysically impossible.

How did he cheapen Vader's origin story? No, seriously, I want to hear this.

3) Some of the EU is actually good. Doing the job of filling in the gaping holes in characterization and plot that Lucas simply cannot do credibly, and doing so in a way that only improves the story.

Oh wow ...please, which desperate gaps in characterization and plot did the EU fill in?

The prequels are less than perfect, but what has the EU done that is better?

Shatterpoint, Plagueis, Anything involving Kyle Katarn, a lot of the Old Republic and ancient history related stuff. More beside that, but that is just what I like and am familiar with. With the standard being "better than the prequels", the list almost axiomatically has to be rather extensive.

Oh come the fuck on. I am the admitted biggest Mace fanboy on the site and even I think Shatterpoint was character wank to the extreme. And Han Solo 2.0 Kyle Katarn? Come on dude, you just lost all credibility. And that should read "a lot of the Old Republic and ancient history related FLUFF." because that is all that it is. It provides some not quite that horrible, completely unneeded, backstory, but there isn't one bit that is better than the prequels.

I won't comment on Plagueis, only because I know the bullet points, but haven't read it yet.

Evidence:

Jar Jar

Jar Jar is bad only because Lucas caved to fanboy whining. I mean, gawd forbid we as viewers think a character that is written and acted in a purposely ridiculous manner is ridiculous just like the other characters in the movie do. How horrible. Don't confuse "I don't like" with bad.

Anakin being characterized as a mentally unstable narcissist with stalker tendencies who the Jedi Order permitted to be so, for years, well before the beginning of the Clone Wars.

You mean, a teenager harboring a secret crush while being raised by a monk society, while also being manipulated by them and the most powerful evil being in the universe all while being told he is "The Chosen One" struggling with who to trust and trying to save everyone he can? What an asshole.

Telling, not showing. All The Time

Yeah, not "evidence", your opinion. And please show that it is indeed "All The Time". That is a very specific and intended statement.

HUGE holes in character relationships and how they originate. For example, what did Anakin do precisely to induce Mace Windu to not trust him, that did not actually earn Anakin mandatory therapy sessions?

You mean, other than having his decision that Anakin not be trained because he is dangerous be overruled? You're right, once they overruled him, he should have immediately trusted him and not worried about him at all, because that would be good writing.

Speaking of which: The Jedi Order being seemingly institutionally incapable of dealing with one of its members who is in obvious psychological distress, despite the glaringly obvious absolute necessity that it have such capacity given the nature of the line of work they are in.

Wait. You're bashing Lucas for not including Jedi therapy scenes in the movies? Oh yes, that would have made them WAYYYYY better. You're a fucking tool. Learn how to disconnect your individual arguments you idiot.

"She's lost the will to live"

What?! OMG Something that isn't explained! One word rebuttal for you: Midichlorians.

Anakin's complete lack of inductive or deductive reasoning skills. Like, for example: Maybe Palpatine, the admitted Sith Lord, was lying about being able to save your wife. He did afterall orchestrate the Entire Fucking Clone War.

Oh riiiiight and Anakin knew that. Oh wait, he is a character and not a viewer. Geezuz fucking christmas.

Anakin Jumping the Crazy Train. Going from "I need him alive to help me save my wife" to "I shall now murder children because the Jedi are evil, somehow."

Maybe he was mad because they didn't give him therapy.
OR maybe Palpatine manipulated the shit out of him... I mean, can hide right in plain sight, literal feet from the two most powerful and insightful Jedi Masters in history, and can cloud the ENTIRE FORCE, but wouldn't DREAM of manipulating a hormonal teenager that he has pegged as the lynchpin to his plans. Right.

Have you actually WATCHED the prequels?

The Jedi Council pointedly not investigating what Sipho Dias (however you spell it) and a guy named Tyranus were doing setting up a clone army in its name. Never taking a look at what these troops were being conditioned to do. Never taking a look at the security data on Kamino to find out who this person is, despite the obvious connection to Count Dooku by way of the genetic donor.

Wow. They didn't investigate it? What was Obi-Wan doing on Kamino again? It's a good thing that the EU told us that the council ordered Obi-Wan to bring Jango back to Coruscant for questioning about the whole thing and that they made that EU movie about Jango escaping from Kamino and Obi-Wan to Geonosis. OH WAIT! That was in the fucking movie.

You are a complete dolt.

The list of stupid that lies deep in my brain at the core of every chain of events in the prequels goes on and on.

Changes: needed and mine.

[Adam Reynolds]

Thrawn was never perfect (except in the eyes of his fans perhaps), and aside from the basic story of a Dark Side follower who is redeemed, Jade isn't really like Vader.

The problem with Thrawn was that he was written with exactly the same problem as Sherlock Holmes. He makes decisions based on information that only he knows and thus no reader could possibly figure it out. Sherlock is only an effective detective if one has never read Poirot(though Poirot is a less interesting character).

As for Mara, the issue with her is more than she cheapens Vader by making him less special. It's the same problem with Plagueis being added to TPM.

[Adam Reynolds]

Oh come the fuck on. I am the admitted biggest Mace fanboy on the site and even I think Shatterpoint was character wank to the extreme. And Han Solo 2.0 Kyle Katarn? Come on dude, you just lost all credibility. And that should read "a lot of the Old Republic and ancient history related FLUFF." because that is all that it is. It provides some not quite that horrible, completely unneeded, backstory, but there isn't one bit that is better than the prequels.

The biggest problem I've always had with Stover's works is that he seems to have somewhat odd ideas about the Force in comparison to the films. Kyle actually seemed to me an attempt to combine Luke and Han, similarly to Corran Horn.

As for the ancient history, a picture is worth a thousand words. I believe this covers much of what is wrong with the EU.

Anakin Jumping the Crazy Train. Going from "I need him alive to help me save my wife" to "I shall now murder children because the Jedi are evil, somehow."

Maybe he was mad because they didn't give him therapy.
OR maybe Palpatine manipulated the shit out of him... I mean, can hide right in plain sight, literal feet from the two most powerful and insightful Jedi Masters in history, and can cloud the ENTIRE FORCE, but wouldn't DREAM of manipulating a hormonal teenager that he has pegged as the lynchpin to his plans. Right.

Have you actually WATCHED the prequels?

It also seems to be the case that the Dark Side works in a manner analogous to addictive drugs. Step one is much harder than step five. This is the key to enticing someone to turn to the Dark Side, once they have committed a single act, they are far easier to turn further. This was Palpatine's strategy in ROTJ with Luke.

The Jedi Council pointedly not investigating what Sipho Dias (however you spell it) and a guy named Tyranus were doing setting up a clone army in its name. Never taking a look at what these troops were being conditioned to do. Never taking a look at the security data on Kamino to find out who this person is, despite the obvious connection to Count Dooku by way of the genetic donor.

Wow. They didn't investigate it? What was Obi-Wan doing on Kamino again? It's a good thing that the EU told us that the council ordered Obi-Wan to bring Jango back to Coruscant for questioning about the whole thing and that they made that EU movie about Jango escaping from Kamino and Obi-Wan to Geonosis. OH WAIT! That was in the fucking movie.

What security data could there even be? Why would Dooku or anyone other than Jango have ever went to Kamino personally? A better unanswered question would have been that of who funded it, though presumably it was sent through enough back channels that it was impossible to properly chase down.

The biggest explation for the trust question with the clone army is that both Yoda and Obi-Wan can read minds and thus after neither of them detected any foul play among the Kaminioians, Yoda figured that using the army was worth it. It was obviously an act of desperation that he recognized might be a problem later. Notice that Yoda was the only commander who actually suspected his clones in time when Order 66 hit.

Examples: Palpatine returning. X-Wings being the cutting edge fighter. TIE Fighters sucking. A million dark Jedi. Hundreds of Sith... I could go on and on.

The one that always struck me was the fact that from the EU depictions of the fall of the historical Sith, we never exactly saw what "at last we will have our revenge" was for. In the Darth Bane trilogy, the Sith were responsible for their own demise due to infighting between Darth Bane and the Brotherhood of Darkness. The Jedi weren't all that responsible. Similarly we never see anything to indicate what "once more the Sith will rule the galaxy" or "oppression of the Sith will never return" referred to. Those statements generally imply that the Sith were actually once in power, though they presumably failed to wipe out the Jedi in that era as per Obi-Wan's comments in ANH.

[Havok]

Yes, one would take those very specific lines from Sidious and Maul, along with Mace's very specific "oppression" line to mean that the Sith ruled the galaxy and it was the Jedi that defeated them and that there is an actual cause for wanting revenge? Silly right? The way the EU writes it, it is more akin to Dark Helmet simply being mad at Yogurt for getting to Downside of the Schwartz.