A Clone Trooper Hero named Marrt

[Metahive]

You know what's funny? There are people who complain that Star Wars is being too clear-cut black and white. I for my part like when universes contain more moral nuance than that and believe it or not, that applies to the Clone Troopers. Have you ever watched the CG Clone Wars series? The Clone Troopers there aren't mindless automata programmed for "evil" purposes, they're full-fledged people with individual outlooks and personalities although they're soldiers first and foremost. As for Order 66, pro forma the Jedi did try to violently overthrow Palpatine, blame it on Windu for botching his mission so spectacularly.

[Simon_Jester]

For the record, Ronin, there is a lot of good evidence in the EU that most if not all of the stormtroopers were not original clonetrooper veterans of the Clone Wars. Some were- and, come to think of it, that probably includes the group Vader used as his personal guard most of the time. But the bulk of the stormtrooper corps from across the galaxy? By and large, non-clone, or at least not from the original Kaminoan stock.

I call the clones evil because they serve the cause of evil. Palpatine is without question evil. His Empire was established as evil way back in 1977 - the allusion to the Nazi Third Reich being rather evident. Everyone that serves the Empire is serving the cause of evil even if they themselves have a family and give money to orphans.

What I do not understand is why you find it so intensely objectionable to portray the clones as anything other than Faceless Minions of Darkness. Again, most people don't flip their shit when they find accounts of the Battle of Saratoga explaining how important Benedict Arnold was to winning the battle.

Does this mean we should think "clones good, Jedi bad?" No. But you seem to have a great deal of investment in the idea that portraying the clones at all somehow undermines the overall themes of Star Wars, and I'm not at all sure I agree.

You seem to want the original clones to be a bunch of evil ogres, with no redeeming virtues or value to anyone. I don't understand this.

---

To be fair, if what he does say manages to respond to the substance of what you said, no one is served by an additional thousand words of quote spaghetti and back-and-forth between you.

I disagree. But lets not start a second debate on this thread about that.

So... by your own argument, you concede my point, then?
________________

Er... better if the clone army had not shot the Jedi at all. I would argue, much better. But that doesn't mean every clone is a terrible person who should always be portrayed as a monster

.
All I was saying is that the clones acted in the very human way of thinking of them self first. After all, they are conditioned to fight for the good of the republic and to believe the republic leaders. And just now, they have been told that the guy in front of them who just hacked apart a bunch of droids like they were toys was going to turn on them. They reacted the same way I would have.

Well, if they weren't mind-controlled by social programming on Kamino, they should have stopped to wonder if maybe the order in question is bullshit. I mean, what actual evidence do they get that the Jedi, who have taken enormous risks during the war at their side, will suddenly arbitrarily turn on them? Nothing. All they get is "execute Order 66."

If that would be enough to get you to shoot your commanding officer in the back, then I don't think I'd want you in the same army with me.

The Nuremberg defense is seriously, seriously flawed, Purple; you should know this. The flaw is that it completely removes the obligation of individuals to consider their role in the state- ignores the fact that governments are ultimately accountable to their people, and that the people are ultimately responsible for policing their government.

As a criminal defense perhaps. But this is not a criminal trial. We are not determining if the clones were criminal responsible before modern day earth laws but if they were complete monsters or just humans, doing their job and being pushed into it by a mixture of propaganda, fear and peer pressure. In other words, my argument is that the clones and by relation stormtroopers were not necessarily evil at all, just human.

On the contrary, in this respect they are very much to blame for their actions if their actions were human, and less to blame for their actions if those actions were caused by brainwashing and programming.

A clonetrooper cannot be blamed for following directives burned into his head by Kaminoan cloners when he was a child. A clonetrooper can be blamed for betraying and killing his commanding officer on the basis of effectively zero evidence if he made a conscious choice to do so. Even if the conscious choice in question was "yes, I choose to follow this order."

People who serve a tyrant as willing slaves and assist him in his attempt to make slaves of others are not only not part of the solution to tyranny, they are part of the problem.

But that does not make them evil in the slightest...

There are degrees of guilt, Purple.

Being part of the same country as a government who seeks to abuse and enslave and betray people does not make you particularly responsible. Being part of the armed forces of that country makes you more responsible. Having personally pulled triggers and committed foul acts on behalf of the government of that country makes you very much responsible for your actions. You can plead that you are not guilty of the government's crimes if all you did was not leave the country or join the resistance upon finding out about them. You cannot make a similar plea if you were one of the people massacring people and shoveling them into mass graves.

If the clonetroopers consciously chose to betray and kill the Jedi in response to a cryptic code-phrase order, with no other evidence that there was any reason to kill the Jedi, they are very much to blame for the Jedi Massacre. And for the consequences of the Jedi Massacre- the rise of an oppressive Imperial state in place of the Republic.

If the clonetroopers were literally incapable of disobeying the order, or if this was so unlikely as to require literally miraculous strength of will for them to refuse, then the size of their guilt is decreased. Not because what they did was "only human," but because in this respect they were weaker than human and less able to say "no, I will not perform this treacherous act for you."

So what you are saying is that what should have happened is a mass clone rebellion? That is so unrealistic that it is silly.
The fact is that it is normal human behavior not to act in that way.

You forget the role of the Jedi in the Republic. For centuries, millenia even, the Jedi had been practically synonymous with the Republic. They had consistently defended the Republic from every really serious threat it ever faced. And now this upstart, this Chancellor, tells the Republic military to turn on the Jedi and kill them all.

This would be like Mussolini having ordered his Italian troops to invade the Vatican and execute the Pope. No it would not be normal human behavior for the troops to mindlessly obey, without asking for clarification, without dissent in the ranks, without senior officers in the military having objected and tried to find some kind of compromise.

Human beings do not have loyalties that can be accessed and activated and turned around that easily. If you think it's "human" to turn on your commanding officer because some politician spoke three words to you, to do this without question or evidence or any attempt to figure out what the hell is going on... well, you have a lot to learn about being human.

The Nuremberg defense is simply a logical conclusion based on human nature and I for one consider it perfectly valid. It's all nice and well to say what someone should have done in hindsight from the safety of an armchair and years later. But being there and you would act the same way they did.

Citation needed.

No, seriously, prove I am a mind-controlled drone produced in a cloning vat and am incapable of asking for confirmation and verification before turning on and murdering my commanding officer in wartime. I think that's gonna be a hard one to prove.

The fundamental flaw in the Nuremberg defense is that it is invariably used by people who had far more opportunity to say "no, I will not do this" than the average citizen of the regime. The guys who plead that they were "just following orders" are invariably the ones who were doing things worse than what the vast majority of the rest of the country was doing.

A guy making bullets on an assembly line, or a guy firing artillery on the front lines of a war, can reasonably plead that he was "just following orders." Secret policemen and prison camp guards cannot.

[FTeik]

You know, what I would like to see? A clone- now stormtrooper, who enjoys his role as enforcer of the empire and oppressor of former republic citicens. "You guys were too lazy and complacent to fight for yourself? You breed me and my brothers to fight, kill and die for you, while you were sitting in your comfy homes in the core? You handed Palpatine all those emergency-powers, so don't complain now, when we bite you in the ass."

[ronindave]

FTeik - love it!

For the record, Ronin, there is a lot of good evidence in the EU that most if not all of the stormtroopers were not original clonetrooper veterans of the Clone Wars

The EU waffles and changes. It's not a good source to rely on because of this IMHO. Personally I never liked the idea of clone as storm troopers to begin with. In AHN they had different voices. I think unless the storm troopers being clones was common knowledge Luke would have been taken back when they took those storm trooper outfits. As for height Leia's comment was more of a jab at Mark Hamill's 5'7 frame.

Anyway the fact is that Marrt and his buddies were bred for Palpatine's purposes - not the Republic. This should be remembered. He wanted them, he ordered them and he controlled them. I don't care what song and dance that cloning guy gave - Palpatine had the clones created so the bottom line is they were his tools first and foremost.

All this stuff about clones having personalites and individualistic characteristics has nothing to do with the main story - the fall of Anakin and the rise of the Empire (which the clones helped bring about). Either the clones are human but are deceptive evil bastards stringing the Jedi along or they are animated canopeners who follow any order without pause or remorse.

I'd buy this tragic figure theory if in ROTS had one of the clones showed any sign of hesitation. If Commander Cody had sighed and said aloud to himself when he got Order 66 "Sorry, old friend!" before shooting at his 'buddy' Obiwan that would have made him tragic. Instead he was Obiwan's old friend one minute and trying to kill him the next. Either he's evil backstabbing traitor or he's just a robot incapable of making any true friendships. But none of the clones showed any pause and they viciously took out the Jedi. I mean the poor Jedi girl is still getting shot when she's fallen. that is not the actions of heroes or tragic figures - that's the actions of people like the Nazis when they mass murdered Jews in the forests with a hail of bullets.

This EU band-aid crap which came later is trying to rewrite what has already been written. If George wanted clones with human-like qualities, he should have just had a human army in the first place or given those clones some kind of real humanity in the films. Trying to backtrack now years later with Clone Wars is a little bit too late.

I think he felt sorry for the clones afterwards when he thought more about the situation he had hastily threw together - or he thought about how much more money he could make with a CLone Wars TV series.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Wow, that was tedious. Let me see if I understand your point: Clonetroopers should at all times be seen to be kid-slapping, puppy-kicking assholes who eat babies stuffed with beer-battered kittens and steal from Granny, or the story sucks. Also, they totally have to know everything the audience does (I.E. Palpatine controling both sides of the war, ect), and they can't believe what they are doing is right and necessary, regardless of what they think about it, because that might make them complex and interesting, and you don't think "mooks" should be complex and interesting. Did I get that right?

[Havok]

May I ask a question: If you know how it is going to turn out ronindave, why are YOU watching TCW? Clearly you think there is no entertainment value whatsoever so why are you wasting your, and in turn, our time with these asinine questions?

[Havok]

The EU waffles and changes.

Does it? Where does it waffle on the difference between the Clones and Stormtroopers? Care to cite some sources on that?

It's not a good source to rely on because of this IMHO. Personally I never liked the idea of clone as storm troopers to begin with. In AHN they had different voices. I think unless the storm troopers being clones was common knowledge Luke would have been taken back when they took those storm trooper outfits. As for height Leia's comment was more of a jab at Mark Hamill's 5'7 frame.

So the Stormtroopers have different voices. That doesn't indicate to you that maybe, just maybe that they aren't all clones, when now we have seen that every clone does indeed have the same voice? In fact, by the time of ANH the original clones were a small minority in the Stormtroopers.

Anyway the fact is that Marrt and his buddies were bred for Palpatine's purposes - not the Republic. This should be remembered. He wanted them, he ordered them and he controlled them. I don't care what song and dance that cloning guy gave - Palpatine had the clones created so the bottom line is they were his tools first and foremost.

Incorrect. The clones were ordered by a Jedi Master in secret for the Republic. It wasn't until later that Palpatine discovered this and took over the project through Dooku in the guise of that same Jedi Master. Be that as it may, they were not bred to be loyal to the man, but the office. Had Windu killed Palpatine, the clones would be loyal to the next person to take the office. So again, incorrect.

All this stuff about clones having personalites and individualistic characteristics has nothing to do with the main story - the fall of Anakin and the rise of the Empire (which the clones helped bring about). Either the clones are human but are deceptive evil bastards stringing the Jedi along or they are animated canopeners who follow any order without pause or remorse.

Nice black and white there. They can absolutely, and as we have seen, be more than either of those. They do have an absolute loyalty to the Republic, and whatever form it takes, but they obviously have differing views on the galaxy, Jedi, how the Republic should be run, separatists, Mandalorians or any of the other myriad of issues that they have come across.

I'd buy this tragic figure theory if in ROTS had one of the clones showed any sign of hesitation. If Commander Cody had sighed and said aloud to himself when he got Order 66 "Sorry, old friend!" before shooting at his 'buddy' Obiwan that would have made him tragic. Instead he was Obiwan's old friend one minute and trying to kill him the next. Either he's evil backstabbing traitor or he's just a robot incapable of making any true friendships. But none of the clones showed any pause and they viciously took out the Jedi. I mean the poor Jedi girl is still getting shot when she's fallen. that is not the actions of heroes or tragic figures - that's the actions of people like the Nazis when they mass murdered Jews in the forests with a hail of bullets.

No, those are the actions of people that have zero choice in the matter. They have absolute loyalty to the Republic and it's leader. They are also the actions of people that have seen the Jedi in action for years. Jedi that continually cheat death and pull the most amazing feats.
And your analogy using the Nazis is quite false. Nazis were willing participants in the Holocaust. The Clones had no choice in the matter. If you want to make an analogy using WWII Germany, then use the German army that was already established and was already protecting Germany when it was taken over by Hitler and then pressed into, under pain of death, the horrible things they were tasked with doing.

This EU band-aid crap which came later is trying to rewrite what has already been written. If George wanted clones with human-like qualities, he should have just had a human army in the first place or given those clones some kind of real humanity in the films. Trying to backtrack now years later with Clone Wars is a little bit too late.

So in one sentence you say there is no room for the clones' story because it has nothing to do with Anakin's fall, and now you say that GL should have done it in the movies which is the main vehicle for Anakin's fall. Whatever dude. If you just don't like the Clones, just say so and leave it at that.

I think he felt sorry for the clones afterwards when he thought more about the situation he had hastily threw together - or he thought about how much more money he could make with a CLone Wars TV series.

Oh here we go. Evil George Lucas just wants to milk innocent fans of their hard earned money.
And hastily threw together? Since when does a movie that takes three years to make, which is part of a story which took almost 30 years to tell, hasty?

The Clone Wars is a vehicle in which to tell the story of *GASP* The Clone Wars. You being indignant that the story of the clones themselves in this being told in the series named for them is pretty fucking laughable.

[Simon_Jester]

You know, what I would like to see? A clone- now stormtrooper, who enjoys his role as enforcer of the empire and oppressor of former republic citicens. "You guys were too lazy and complacent to fight for yourself? You breed me and my brothers to fight, kill and die for you, while you were sitting in your comfy homes in the core? You handed Palpatine all those emergency-powers, so don't complain now, when we bite you in the ass."

In all fairness, he'd have a point, depending on his definition of "you."

[Jim Raynor]

I don't even get this idea that the Clones HAD to either be evil liars from the start, or completely inhuman automatons to carry out Order 66. It's like there's no middle ground between those two extremes.

How's about this? The clones are trusting, obediant, and loyal to the highest authority in the Republic. AOTC makes it clear that that is how they were bred and raised. They were educated in a closed, sterile environment. That doesn't make them inhuman - just humans with mindsets that are very different than the common man's. The movies do not state that clones don't have emotions, just that they take care of their duty above all else. Cody may very well have regretted shooting at Obi-Wan, after the fact. But he's a good (make that perfect) soldier. It doesn't matter to him what he feels, which wouldn't come to the surface the way it would for a regular person. He received legitimate orders from his Commander in Chief. Not knowing anything else, he will carry out those orders in a businesslike manner.

[Batman]

The EU waffles and changes. It's not a good source to rely on because of this IMHO.

Translation: It doesn't tell me what I want it to so I'll dismiss it.

Personally I never liked the idea of clone as storm troopers to begin with.

Nobody said they were? Quite the contrary in fact?

In AHN they had different voices. I think unless the storm troopers being clones was common knowledge Luke would have been taken back when they took those storm trooper outfits.

This is supposed to mean-what, exactly?

As for height Leia's comment was more of a jab at Mark Hamill's 5'7 frame.

Indicating that in-universe Stormtroopers tend to be taller than that, nothing more. Works for clones that are. Also works for a recruiting policy that rejects anybody shorter than 5'8".

Anyway the fact is that Marrt and his buddies were bred for Palpatine's purposes - not the Republic. This should be remembered. He wanted them, he ordered them and he controlled them. I don't care what song and dance that cloning guy gave - Palpatine had the clones created so the bottom line is they were his tools first and foremost.

For which you, as usual, have provided no evidence whatsoever. All we actually know (as you don't want to acknowledge the EU) is that Count Dooku ordered the Clone Army. At whose behest and to what purpose is anybody's guess.

All this stuff about clones having personalites and individualistic characteristics has nothing to do with the main story - the fall of Anakin and the rise of the Empire (which the clones helped bring about). Either the clones are human but are deceptive evil bastards stringing the Jedi along or they are animated canopeners who follow any order without pause or remorse.

Which you have established by-oh wait, you haven't, you blithely state that as an established fact without ever actually showing it is.

I'd buy this tragic figure theory if in ROTS had one of the clones showed any sign of hesitation.

No you wouldn't. You would just make up another excuse for not admitting that the Clones didn't have a choice in that matter.

If Commander Cody had sighed and said aloud to himself when he got Order 66 "Sorry, old friend!" before shooting at his 'buddy' Obiwan that would have made him tragic. Instead he was Obiwan's old friend one minute and trying to kill him the next. Either he's evil backstabbing traitor or he's just a robot incapable of making any true friendships.

Or maybe he simply had no choice in the matter. By now I know you're in willful denial but even so you should know that executing Order 66 wasn't something the Clones CHOSE to do.

But none of the clones showed any pause and they viciously took out the Jedi.

Why should they?

I mean the poor Jedi girl is still getting shot when she's fallen. that is not the actions of heroes or tragic figures - that's the actions of people like the Nazis when they mass murdered Jews in the forests with a hail of bullets.

How stupid are you? I mean, besides the obvious answer, which is 'incredibly'? Up to the moment Order 66 was given the Clonetroopers were perfectly loyal. The number of atrocities commited by Clonetroopers before Order 66 was given was zero.

This EU band-aid crap which came later is trying to rewrite what has already been written.

The Hand of Thrawn duology neatly predates the PT and has clones as individuals, I'm afraid.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Some were- and, come to think of it, that probably includes the group Vader used as his personal guard most of the time.

The 501st was the only legion by OT to still openly use the quite obvious Fett-Template Clones.

But the bulk of the stormtrooper corps from across the galaxy? By and large, non-clone, or at least not from the original Kaminoan stock.

Correct, Pax Empirical (IIRC) puts clones at 40% of the Stormtrooper Corps, who were GeNode clonetroopers who had false histories programmed into them.

[Simon_Jester]

Some were- and, come to think of it, that probably includes the group Vader used as his personal guard most of the time.

The 501st was the only legion by OT to still openly use the quite obvious Fett-Template Clones.

Honestly, there are so many different EU sources on the role of clones, and on where clones come from, that I'm reluctant to take any one EU source at face value. The preponderance of the evidence argues for a mix of Kaminoan clones (rare by the time of Yavin), non-Kaminoan clones, and womb-born recruits into the Stormtrooper Corps, but I make no bets about what the numbers 'really' are.

It's hard to get accurate figures from Star Wars past a certain maximum resolution, because you have so many authors portraying the same stuff differently. It all more or less hangs together, or nearly all, but trying to parse all the contradictions is a waste of time.

[ronindave]

I have to say this has been rather amusing. Especially those comments from purps and batman.

Purple actually defends war crimes and uses the Nuremburg defense to justify the actions of murder while Batman leaves such gems as these:

How stupid are you? I mean, besides the obvious answer, which is 'incredibly'?

Priceless!

But here's something I thought was pulled from the depths of someone's anus:

Incorrect. The clones were ordered by a Jedi Master in secret for the Republic. It wasn't until later that Palpatine discovered this and took over the project through Dooku in the guise of that same Jedi Master. Be that as it may, they were not bred to be loyal to the man, but the office. Had Windu killed Palpatine, the clones would be loyal to the next person to take the office. So again, incorrect.

Really? Sounds like EU band-aid after-the-fact application. From the film elementary deduction shows who is behind the clone army and why the loyalty of the clones to the Republic is suspect.



The cloners say the order was put in by a Jedi master without authorization or knowledge of the council and who is conveniently dead. Either he placed the order in for the clones and was bumped off or Dooku pretended to be him.
Jango says he was hired to be the clone template by Tyrannus whom we know is the sith name of Dooku. Dooku works for Sidious whom we all know and love as Palpatine. And all of this took place around the time he became chancellor. All answers point to Palpatine being behind the clone order in the first place and thus would have had some influence on them from their inception.

You say someone else ordered the clones first. Who and what for? The only person who would have wanted or needed a clone army was Palpatine.

But speaking of clones, I can't believe a planet like Kamino is unknown to the Jedi especially to Yoda. A planet that makes clone armies for anyone who will pay? That sounds like trouble. You'd think Kamino would be nuked for the good of the Republic or out of revenge from any planet who suffered attacks from the clones made there. The Separtists were able to threaten the Republic with a self-made droid army. Any crackpot with money could buy a clone army and run amok - oh, wait that happened and he set up the Empire.

The cloners say the Fett clones are the finest they ever made. That implies they've made others --- which begs the question for who and for what reason? If the Republic is so demiliatrized as some of you say it is then who was ordering clone armies in the past? And might they not still have them? Or is the Outer Rim just teeming with clone armies unbeknowst to the Republic?

Anyway, from the film it seems quite clear Palpatine is behind the clones and has been since the beginning hence the secrecy and the removal of Kamino from the records. Palpatine is not the type that leaves things to chance. When he gives Order 66, he expects dead Jedi and not tragic figures agonizing over gunning down their former friends and leaders. Their obedience is to him and him alone and it shows when he removes the democratic Republic that you guys say the clones are so loyal to and replaces it with the tyrannical Empire. You'd think based on the loyal to the Republic theory, the clones would all join the Rebel Alliance or just blow a gasket with the conundrum that the head of the Republic just turned it into the exact opposite of what it was.

[Metahive]

You know if you're just dissatisfied how the Clones are portrayed, I say fine, more power to ya', different strokes and all that. But arguing that all the Clones must be one-dimensional Orcs just because you like it better that way and despite all the canon-evidence disagreeing with this nation then I can just say, too bad so sad. There's really not much more to this.

[Broken]

Well, this may be the first time I've ever heard someone argue we need more flat, two-dimensional characters in Star Wars or fiction in general. One of the central themes of the prequel trilogy was the tragedy that overcame the Republic. The fall of Anakin Skywalker. The devastation of Clone Wars. The betrayal of the Jedi. The misery of the clones themselves.

We have known from their introduction in AotC that the Kaminoans actively modified the genetics of the clones to make them less "independent" then the original Fett. We simply do not know how much this changed the clones. But alteration of their genetic structure combined with intense, focused education/indoctrination followed by deployment into an active war; none of that speaks of a being with the experience necessary to even contemplate ignoring or arguing about orders given to them by an authority figure and as regards Order 66 there is no-one higher in the chain of command then the Chancellor of the Republic itself.

Yet the clones themselves are clearly more then simple meat puppets to carry out their pre-programmed orders. They have different, independent personalities; a non-uniform sense of humor; are fully capable of forming friendships and performing acts of heroism and self-sacrifice. One of the main purposes of the clones was to get close to the Jedi and be accepted by them. To put them at ease in their company. Placing an empath among a bunch of emotionless fleshdolls, as some have suggested the clones are, is not going to reassure the Jedi, it's going to creep them out, put them more on edge and thus more likely to make the Clone Wars and Order 66 fail. The clones were not created merely to execute Order 66, but also the draw the Jedi into the war. The Clone Wars themselves were a trap orchestrated by Palpatine to kill off as many of the Jedi as possible so that the clones would have a better chance to totally wipe out the Jedi when the time came. Putting the Jedi in charge of troops they can empathize with, that they will be more willing to risk their own lives for is an advancement of the Sith plot. How many Jedi hesitated when Order 66 came in shock and disbelief? That their friends and comrades would turn on them with no warning to their empathic senses?

The clones are clearly human; but they are altered, heavily indoctrinated humans. The mass creation of humans with their base capacity to "rebel" against orders fundamentally changed is yet one more tragedy that befell the galaxy during the fall of the Old Republic.

[Jim Raynor]

Really? Sounds like EU band-aid after-the-fact application. From the film elementary deduction shows who is behind the clone army and why the loyalty of the clones to the Republic is suspect.

The Kaminoans are good and honest. The Clones were honest too, and raised to be completely loyal to the Republic. This was vouched for by Obi-Wan, a Jedi who can read minds and detect emotions. Who Yoda obviously agreed with, after his own inspection later in the movie.

The cloners say the order was put in by a Jedi master without authorization or knowledge of the council and who is conveniently dead. Either he placed the order in for the clones and was bumped off or Dooku pretended to be him.
Jango says he was hired to be the clone template by Tyrannus whom we know is the sith name of Dooku.

Dooku's Sith name is something that the characters do not know. "Tyranus" and nothing else means absolutely nothing to them.

Dooku works for Sidious whom we all know and love as Palpatine. And all of this took place around the time he became chancellor. All answers point to Palpatine being behind the clone order in the first place and thus would have had some influence on them from their inception.

Nice unsupported statement. "All answers point to Palpatine." What answers, which were actually revealed to the characters within the movie?

All they know is that someone ordered an army, FOR the Republic. An army made up of troops that were absolutely loyal to the Republic, from military contractors who were loyal to the Republic. Military contractors who stated that the order came from someone in the Senate, which had members pushing for militarization.

You say someone else ordered the clones first. Who and what for? The only person who would have wanted or needed a clone army was Palpatine.

Another unsupported statement. You seem to live off of them.

But speaking of clones, I can't believe a planet like Kamino is unknown to the Jedi especially to Yoda. A planet that makes clone armies for anyone who will pay? That sounds like trouble. You'd think Kamino would be nuked for the good of the Republic

Wow, not jumping the gun at all. Do you know how ridiculous you sound?

or out of revenge from any planet who suffered attacks from the clones made there.

The SW galaxy is a huge place. The Kaminoans are one military contractor out of what could be a countless number. And who says the planet is undefended, and that anyone can just come up and "nuke" them? This is a galaxy where the reigning superpower can't even get off its butt to create a federal army.

The Separtists were able to threaten the Republic with a self-made droid army. Any crackpot with money could buy a clone army and run amok

Another unsupported statement. The Kaminoans sell to clients they want to sell to. This is like saying anyone can buy stealth fighters from Lockheed and run amok.

If the Republic is so demiliatrized as some of you say it is then who was ordering clone armies in the past? And might they not still have them? Or is the Outer Rim just teeming with clone armies unbeknowst to the Republic?

Small time planetary militas. Private security firms. Who cares.

You'd think based on the loyal to the Republic theory, the clones would all join the Rebel Alliance or just blow a gasket with the conundrum that the head of the Republic just turned it into the exact opposite of what it was.

This is getting tiresome. Everything argument you make is based on unsupported assumptions that don't even make sense. The clones were explicitly said to have been bred for obediance. They're not going to get a big independent streak and start thinking about how THEY would run the Republic instead. Especially not join the Rebel Alliance, which does not exist yet in ROTS, and has no direct contact to them. Palpatine is the Chancellor, and the highest legitimate leader in the Republic.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Honestly, there are so many different EU sources on the role of clones, and on where clones come from, that I'm reluctant to take any one EU source at face value. The preponderance of the evidence argues for a mix of Kaminoan clones (rare by the time of Yavin), non-Kaminoan clones, and womb-born recruits into the Stormtrooper Corps, but I make no bets about what the numbers 'really' are.

I'm not commenting on Kaminoan clones, just exclusively the ones cloned from Jango Fett's genetic template. Cloning was 'officially' banned, but clandestine cloning operations continued with full support of the Empire.

[Havok]

But here's something I thought was pulled from the depths of someone's anus:

Incorrect. The clones were ordered by a Jedi Master in secret for the Republic. It wasn't until later that Palpatine discovered this and took over the project through Dooku in the guise of that same Jedi Master. Be that as it may, they were not bred to be loyal to the man, but the office. Had Windu killed Palpatine, the clones would be loyal to the next person to take the office. So again, incorrect.

Really? Sounds like EU band-aid after-the-fact application. From the film elementary deduction shows who is behind the clone army and why the loyalty of the clones to the Republic is suspect.

You would certainly know about pulling things from your ass, but let me go ahead and fill you in.

Sifo-Dyas, you know, the guy that is actually NAMED in the movie, ordered the clones. So there goes your 'elementary deduction' dumbass. There is an entire SCENE in ATTACK OF THE CLONES that has Obi-Wan talking to the council about this very thing.

The cloners say the order was put in by a Jedi master without authorization or knowledge of the council and who is conveniently dead. Either he placed the order in for the clones and was bumped off or Dooku pretended to be him.
Jango says he was hired to be the clone template by Tyrannus whom we know is the sith name of Dooku. Dooku works for Sidious whom we all know and love as Palpatine. And all of this took place around the time he became chancellor. All answers point to Palpatine being behind the clone order in the first place and thus would have had some influence on them from their inception.

Gawd, more black and white, either or. No middle ground. Always mutually exclusive.
In fact, Sifo-Dyas placed the order, was bumped off AND Dooku pretended to be him. See how that can happen. He then recruited Jango as a new template.

And I love how your mind is unable to grasp the concept of the characters in the movies not having ANY of the knowledge the viewers have. You are mad because they aren't figuring out that Palpatine is Sidious. You have known it for 30 years, so why don't these dumbasses figure it out?
'All answers', which by the way, there aren't any, point to Palpatine IF you already know he is Sidious slick. Not if you have no idea who the fuck Sidious even is, you know, like every person in the whole fucking galaxy, except Dooku.

You say someone else ordered the clones first. Who and what for? The only person who would have wanted or needed a clone army was Palpatine.

Really? Do the math dumbfuck. What was Palpatine's position in the Galactic Government over ten years before AOTC? Remember yet? Senator. A single senator has absolutely zero need for an army. Sifo-Dyas ordered the army for the Republic because he foresaw the future, you know, that pesky thing Jedi do, and placed the order with the thought and mindset that A. the Republic would need it B. that the Republic was not secretly going to be run by a Sith Lord, who also was running the Seperatists and C. he would be fucking alive.

But speaking of clones, I can't believe a planet like Kamino is unknown to the Jedi especially to Yoda.

Right. I forgot that Yoda was an astrologer and planet cataloger. Why the fuck would Yoda know about one planet? There are hundreds of thousands of planets in the SW galaxy, please tell us why Yoda should know about one?

A planet that makes clone armies for anyone who will pay? That sounds like trouble. You'd think Kamino would be nuked for the good of the Republic or out of revenge from any planet who suffered attacks from the clones made there. The Separtists were able to threaten the Republic with a self-made droid army. Any crackpot with money could buy a clone army and run amok - oh, wait that happened and he set up the Empire.

What the fuck... do you even know what you are rambling about? Any fucking planet with a decent population can raise a fucking army retard. Should the Republic nuke any planet with more than a billion people? Are you really this fucking stupid?
In one sentence you talk about clones, then droids while not realizing that the capabilities of creating armies of them has been around for THOUSANDS of years in the SW galaxy. The fact that you can make them has zero bearing on what happened dumbshit. It was the fact that one man was able to amass so much power, through corruption and legal means, that he could play them off each other. Palpatine could have done the same thing with standard armies as long as he controlled the Republic and Seperatists and he was able to pit them against each other to his own ends. That is the point of the prequels, not that there were clones or not.

The cloners say the Fett clones are the finest they ever made. That implies they've made others --- which begs the question for who and for what reason? If the Republic is so demiliatrized as some of you say it is then who was ordering clone armies in the past? And might they not still have them? Or is the Outer Rim just teeming with clone armies unbeknowst to the Republic?

Obviously, the Kaminoians didn't threaten the Republic at any point with their clones. Your 'elementary deduction' should tell you that OR Kamino actually would be a well known planet.

And just because they can make an army, doesn't mean that they already have. Shit, half of the scenes on Kamino are them talking about the new things they came up with to make this army for the Republic. It is clearly not something they have always done. And there are many reasons one would use or want clones. The one that immediately comes to mind is medical reasons.

Also try to keep in mind, that as far as the Kaminoans are concerned, this army IS for the Republic. How can they threaten the Republic with an army when that is who they are making it for. Again, character perspective and knowledge Vs viewer perspective and knowledge.

Anyway, from the film it seems quite clear Palpatine is behind the clones and has been since the beginning hence the secrecy and the removal of Kamino from the records.

Holy fuck, you are this dumb.
OK, lets try this... pretend that you have never seen A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and most importantly, Return of the Jedi. Pretend that you never read the credits in those movies and The Phantom Menace.

Now, under this pretense, give me one good reason why you, the rest of the audience, and most importantly, the fucking characters in the movies, would have any reason to suspect Palpatine is behind the creation of the clones. Or the removal of Kamino from the Jedi archives? Please, show us all, with your 'elementary deduction' the damning evidence that gives away that Palpatine is behind the clone armys creation. Let fucking alone that he is Sidious. Please show us the scenes in the movie that gives us this information.

Palpatine is not the type that leaves things to chance.

Oh really? Banking on Anakin showing up in time to save him from Windu. Banking on Luke turning on his father. Oops. Banking on the rebels not being able to blow up a SECOND Death Star. Oops. Banking on Vader never betraying him. Oops.
Please just stop this... you are making a complete ass out of yourself.

When he gives Order 66, he expects dead Jedi and not tragic figures agonizing over gunning down their former friends and leaders.

Except this actually happens in a book that was written and sanctioned by GL that takes place immediately after ROTS and was written along side the production of ROTS so there is no 'EU band aide' label here. The clones in the story found the order preposterous because they had seen zero indication of betrayal from the Jedi and thought the order to be a hoax by the Seperatists to get them to kill their friends, leaders and most effective warriors.

Their obedience is to him and him alone and it shows when he removes the democratic Republic that you guys say the clones are so loyal to and replaces it with the tyrannical Empire.

Fucking christ on a fucking stick. CHARACTER PERSPECTIVE. Please provide the scenes and evidence that allow everyone in the galaxy to know that the First Galactic Empire, which is like, a day fucking old, is tyrannical? Please provide this evidence or concede your dumbassed fucking argument.

The FGE is a government that was sanctioned by almost the entire fucking senate and the new Emperor was recognized as the new legal authority in the galaxy. Why would the clones all of a sudden not recognize that authority?

You'd think based on the loyal to the Republic theory, the clones would all join the Rebel Alliance or just blow a gasket with the conundrum that the head of the Republic just turned it into the exact opposite of what it was.

Why? The Rebel Alliance A. doesn't exist yet and B. is a group with the singular goal of overthrowing the LEGAL government of the galaxy, you know the thing the clones are bred to obey.

And even after the events of ROTS, nobody fucking knows that Palpatine and Sidious were the same fucking person. Most people don't even know that an entity named Sidious even existed.

[lstyer]

Either the clones are human but are deceptive evil bastards stringing the Jedi along or they are animated canopeners who follow any order without pause or remorse.

I think you're building a false dichotomy, here. There's an awful lot of middle ground between those two extremes. Taking the movies and the EU stuff together, I'd say they were, generally, more-suggestible-than-usual humans with some "code phrases" built deep into their psyches that, once triggered, robbed the completely of their free will within a particular set of circumstances.

[Sarevok]

That and a lifetime of indoctrination.



Intended for covert operation behind enemies the Delta Commandoes are not restricted in thinking anyway. They can't be considering the demands of the missions they undertake. As a result different Comandoes assume different personalities and event accents.

Yet they loyal to the Republic to the bitter end. When asked to give their lives they do so without question. They obey any orders the Jedi give them even when they know said order is of questionable value (Yoda ordering Delta Squad to abandon Sev when he certain could be rescued !) . They may protest but still carry out their orders regardless. This is how professional clones are.

The point is you don't need droid like programming to get this sort of fanatical loyalty. The key highlight of the clone army programme was that human soldiers think creatively while droids are restricted by their programming. The ordinary clones may have some implanted directives but by and large they are people and more importantly very brave people. They really are the untold heroes of the Star Wars saga, loved by no one, taking all the blame for Palpatines follies yet at end of the day they the ones who died by the billions without question for sake of the Republic.

[Panzersharkcat]

Depending on how high in canon Journal of the 501st is, what with it coming from Battlefront II, the clones did express sadness over having to gun down the Jedi. When they killed Aayla Secura, the trooper narrating the journal said, "Aayla Secura told us we were the absolute best soldiers she'd ever worked with. It was a good thing we were wearing helmets, because none of us could bear to look her in the eye."

[Ritterin Sophia]

Yoda ordering Delta Squad to abandon Sev when he certain could be rescued !

That's not really a fair telling of it. Remember that Delta Squad didn't report directly to Yoda, so he may not have been made privy to Sevs disappearance and the normal clones who act as the liaisons for the squad likely would've felt Clone Commandos are equally unimportant as individuals.

[Darth Ruinus]

Depending on how high in canon Journal of the 501st is, what with it coming from Battlefront II, the clones did express sadness over having to gun down the Jedi. When they killed Aayla Secura, the trooper narrating the journal said, "Aayla Secura told us we were the absolute best soldiers she'd ever worked with. It was a good thing we were wearing helmets, because none of us could bear to look her in the eye."

Game storylines are just as canon as everything else, as long as they don't contradict anything. And yeah, they also mention during Operation: Knightfall that:
"We all knew what was about to happen, what we were about to do. Did we have any doubts? Any private traitorous thoughts? Perhaps, but no one said a word. Not on the flight back to Coruscant, not when Order 66 came down, and not when we marched into the Jedi Temple. Not a word."

[Ritterin Sophia]

That's the thing about the clone programming, they don't even realize they never had a choice. GeNode clones are said to be incapable of talking about the subject of clones, disobeying the Empire, or even realize they are clones if they're faced with another clone of the same template who is physically identical to them.

[ronindave]

Sifo-Dyas, you know, the guy that is actually NAMED in the movie, ordered the clones. So there goes your 'elementary deduction' dumbass. There is an entire SCENE in ATTACK OF THE CLONES that has Obi-Wan talking to the council about this very thing.

Yet there is a problem here - according to that very same scene Obiwan thought Sifo-Doofus had died before the clones were ordered and no one on the council heard or authorized any clone army on a planet none of them seemed aware of before.



And did anyone ever see Sifo-Dyas? We know from the cloners a jedi named Sifo Dyas put in the order. We know from Jango he was hired by a man named Tyrannus who we learn to be Dooku. Hmmm... could it be that maybe Dooku impersonated a dead Jedi to the cloners? You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that Palpatine thru Dooku was behind the creation of the clone army and I mean this from the audience's perspective because it involves the very nature of the clones - beings created by an evil man to fulfill his evil plans. Now even though the Jedi don't know all this or have reason to suspect Palpatine at the time, the fact is the whole clone thing should have sent off enormous warning bells.

An order put through by a Jedi thought to be dead before this on a planet wiped from their archives that only a Jedi could do with a template model of a bounty hunter found working for the Separatists led by Count Dooku, a former a Jedi - uh, guys? Don't use the fucking clones. At the very least they should have suspected a Separatist trap. In a roundabout way it was since Palpatine was running the Separatists anyway.

Really? Do the math dumbfuck. What was Palpatine's position in the Galactic Government over ten years before AOTC? Remember yet? Senator. A single senator has absolutely zero need for an army. Sifo-Dyas ordered the army for the Republic because he foresaw the future, you know, that pesky thing Jedi do, and placed the order with the thought and mindset that A. the Republic would need it B. that the Republic was not secretly going to be run by a Sith Lord, who also was running the Seperatists and C. he would be fucking alive.

Dumbfuck? Please, keep the personal insults down and try to focus if you can on your argument even as weak as it is. The problem here is you're making vast assumptions on the motives of Sifo-Dyas a character only mentioned in the film. The clones were said to have been ordered 10 years ago about the time Palpatine became Chancellor. Whether he was chancellor or senator at the time of the order is immaterial. Palpatine had a plan to sieze complete power from early on that went beyond just being Chancellor. The Separatists and the clones were quite apparently a part of that plan.

But speaking of clones, I can't believe a planet like Kamino is unknown to the Jedi especially to Yoda.

Right. I forgot that Yoda was an astrologer and planet cataloger. Why the fuck would Yoda know about one planet? There are hundreds of thousands of planets in the SW galaxy, please tell us why Yoda should know about one?

A planet able to produce whole clone armies? Don't you think every tinpot dictator in the galaxy would be trying to order these? There'd be clone armies all over the place. I think being able to mass produce clone armies along with weaponry and ships would make Kamino quite unique in the SW universe. I wonder why the Rebels didn't cobble together some cash and buy a few thousand wookie clone soldiers?

A planet that makes clone armies for anyone who will pay? That sounds like trouble. You'd think Kamino would be nuked for the good of the Republic or out of revenge from any planet who suffered attacks from the clones made there. The Separtists were able to threaten the Republic with a self-made droid army. Any crackpot with money could buy a clone army and run amok - oh, wait that happened and he set up the Empire.

What the fuck... do you even know what you are rambling about? Any fucking planet with a decent population can raise a fucking army retard. Should the Republic nuke any planet with more than a billion people? Are you really this fucking stupid?

Apparently you take things to literally but that is hardly a crime here The fact is a planet that is willingly to sell off whole armies to whoever will pay them would make for a dangerous element. Planets that had suffered from their clone armies might possibly want revenge or simply to stop their enemies from producing more. I wonder if there isn't some EU story out there or in the works were the rebels destroy the cloning facilities to stop the mass production of Storm Troopers.

In one sentence you talk about clones, then droids while not realizing that the capabilities of creating armies of them has been around for THOUSANDS of years in the SW galaxy. The fact that you can make them has zero bearing on what happened dumbshit.

dumbshit? you get mad so easily, don't you? We're just talking about Star Wars. Pop a chill pill.

The cloners say the Fett clones are the finest they ever made. That implies they've made others --- which begs the question for who and for what reason? If the Republic is so demiliatrized as some of you say it is then who was ordering clone armies in the past? And might they not still have them? Or is the Outer Rim just teeming with clone armies unbeknowst to the Republic?

Obviously, the Kaminoians didn't threaten the Republic at any point with their clones. Your 'elementary deduction' should tell you that OR Kamino actually would be a well known planet.

And just because they can make an army, doesn't mean that they already have.

You apparently haven't watched the film or something. The cloner prime minister clearly says to Obi-wan that Jango's clone army is one of the finest they have ever created. Present Perfect Tense which means up to that point they had created clone armies before and when you throw in the word "ever" that implies they have been doing it for some time. Check 5:30 for his exact words:

Anyway, from the film it seems quite clear Palpatine is behind the clones and has been since the beginning hence the secrecy and the removal of Kamino from the records.

Holy fuck, you are this dumb.
OK, lets try this... pretend that you have never seen A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and most importantly, Return of the Jedi. Pretend that you never read the credits in those movies and The Phantom Menace.

Now, under this pretense, give me one good reason why you, the rest of the audience, and most importantly, the fucking characters in the movies, would have any reason to suspect Palpatine is behind the creation of the clones. Or the removal of Kamino from the Jedi archives? Please, show us all, with your 'elementary deduction' the damning evidence that gives away that Palpatine is behind the clone armys creation. Let fucking alone that he is Sidious. Please show us the scenes in the movie that gives us this information.

I see what you are doing here - completely missing the point. When I say clearly Palpatine is behind the creation of the clones this goes back to the original point of this thread - that the clone troopers are the tools of Palpatine. He had them created specifically to fulfill his designs. They aren't tragic heroes. They either willing aided him or they were little more than droids following programmed commands. And there is very little reason to suspect that someone else ordered the clones first, in fact none at all. The clones were from the very beginning part of Palpatine's plans therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that he would have made great efforts to make sure the clones would only follow him.

When he gives Order 66, he expects dead Jedi and not tragic figures agonizing over gunning down their former friends and leaders.

Except this actually happens in a book that was written and sanctioned by GL that takes place immediately after ROTS and was written along side the production of ROTS so there is no 'EU band aide' label here. The clones in the story found the order preposterous because they had seen zero indication of betrayal from the Jedi and thought the order to be a hoax by the Seperatists to get them to kill their friends, leaders and most effective warriors.

Sorry but that is EU band aid even more so if GL approved it. It's called backtracking. When AOTC and ROTS were made, the clones were simply the bad guys that Palpatine used to wipe out the Jedi and seize control. When the idea of making a Clone Wars movie and TV series came along a few years later, they had to backtrack what had already been established basically fix it so it would fit the new story line. That's the problem with the whole Prequel franchise. The scripts were rushed leading to all kinds of inconsistencies which GL is still rewriting and changing despite it going against what he already put down.

Their obedience is to him and him alone and it shows when he removes the democratic Republic that you guys say the clones are so loyal to and replaces it with the tyrannical Empire.

Fucking christ on a fucking stick. CHARACTER PERSPECTIVE. Please provide the scenes and evidence that allow everyone in the galaxy to know that the First Galactic Empire, which is like, a day fucking old, is tyrannical? Please provide this evidence or concede your dumbassed fucking argument.

An Empire headed by one supreme leader as opposed to a Republic formed by elected delegates should make most people raise an eyebrow especially after hearing the Jedi the guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand years were all cut down including the children without even a trial or investigation. What a way to start a new Empire! Nothing tyrannical or strange about that. No, sir!

In real life people who have lived in nominally democratic republics of some sort have always been wary of tyrants and the possibility of one arising. Julius Caesar was cut down in fear he would become a king/emperor and do away with the Roman Republic. But I guess everyone in the SW Republic were just too dumb to think about it that much.

You'd think based on the loyal to the Republic theory, the clones would all join the Rebel Alliance or just blow a gasket with the conundrum that the head of the Republic just turned it into the exact opposite of what it was.

Why? The Rebel Alliance A. doesn't exist yet and B. is a group with the singular goal of overthrowing the LEGAL government of the galaxy, you know the thing the clones are bred to obey.

Bred to obey - there we go back to the original point of this thread. The clone troopers are not heroes not even tragic ones. They have no thought of their own and they have been shown to willingly follow any order no matter how grisly. They gunned down their old friends in the back and they helped Anakin slaughter children. I know some here tried to use the Nuremburg excuse of they were just following orders but most of those who used that defense got hung. In the American military that excuse doesn't float, just ask Lynndie England and her Abu Ghraib mates.

Making a story about a heroic clone trooper like Marrt and the message of the actions of one soldier given the background here is just warped. In just about any other story setting it would work but not here. Either Marrt is just playing along until Order 66 comes along or he's just like a droid that will be your friend one minute and kill you the next.

Overall what amazes me here is the lengths some of you will go to in order to defend what basically amounts to sloppy inconsistent writing. Truly amazing!

The Kaminoans are good and honest.

Really? Where was that ever established? Oh, that's right! It never was!



Dexter the only person who knew them said in response to them being friendly depended on your manners and the size of your wallet. Don't sound too honest to me. There was nothing in the film to say they were anything else than Cloners-For-Hire (though I'm sure some EU band aid writer has or will put something out there about Kamineon integrity )