Did EU jump the shark with the Yuuzhan Vong?

[jollyreaper]

Frankly, I think it is the supernatural elements of the Jedi that are a built-in flaw in an otherwise awesome setting. Obviously, this is totally subjective on my part and many will protest the point of view, but I think I have a point with the contention that the Jedi create a block to a lot of potentially significant story development that might otherwise advance the setting overall.

The super-weapons were just bad writing, period. I don't think the Jedi were overpowered in the classic trilogy -- not that we saw many, of course. If we're talking those Force Unleashed games where the Jedi are freakin' going dragonball all over then yeah, unbalanced. The Jedi would be the weakest part of any Star Wars MMO because everyone wants to be a jedi, nobody wants to be a sidekick.

To my preference, a Jedi would basically be about where your Hollywood ninja is, a solid 2x better than the best-trained mundane human. Better reflexes, better instincts, able to react before you even formulate your thought. But they're not invincible, they're not immortal. Amazing leaps, amazing acrobatics, sure. But far down the scale from comic book superhero.

That's pretty much where we saw Jedi in the original trilogy. Luke could make amazing shots no normal person could do. His combat instincts and reflexes were good enough to allow him to bat away individual laser bolts with his lightsaber. He could make jumps that were beyond what a normal human could do. And let's not forget the awesome telekinetics, the potential to cloud minds, etc. While these are all awesome abilities to have, a Jedi could still get squished like bug if he weren't damn careful in how he operated. There's room for drama in the story and non-Jedi characters could make contributions to the storyline. Han Solo was not playing a Jimmy Olson to Luke's Superman.

[PainRack]

One thing about the Yuuzhan Vong is that it is not as much they who "jumped the shark", but rather are a mirror to the real problem at the core of the Star Wars stories from the beginning-- the Vong were tough because even their footsoldier mooks were invincible to Jedi. And therein lies the problem: in order to bring some shake-and-bake change to Star Wars, you have to remove the Jedi as a problem.

The Jedi have access to superworldly powers that elevates them above and beyond normal people. Even with strict codes of conduct they do, even if unintentionally, become the ruling class. Everything in society will depend on what direction the Force-wielders take things. It took another Force-wielder, a Sith, to alter the balance, and more Force-wielders to correct it. In Star Wars, there are two groups of people: Jedi, and those who support the Jedi. What they do determines policy and direction, everyone else just lines up behind them regardless of whether they are aware of it or not, as in the case with the Emperor.

Are we talking about the movie or the EU here?
The movie certainly didn't have that feel. The Prequels pandered more to this but that in part was due to the sheer facelessness of the Clonetroopers. Wedge, Han, Chewie, Lando... these were individual characters that Jar Jar and Padme simply couldn't replace . And indeed, Padme cast role as the strong woman who fell hard for Anakin, only to be utterly "destroyed" by his fall was typecast back in AOTC and predicted in TPM already.
On the "bad" guy side though, Nute Gunray and General Grevious did manage to show this somewhat well.

Frankly, I think it is the supernatural elements of the Jedi that are a built-in flaw in an otherwise awesome setting. Obviously, this is totally subjective on my part and many will protest the point of view, but I think I have a point with the contention that the Jedi create a block to a lot of potentially significant story development that might otherwise advance the setting overall.

I t hink that's the flaw of the authors themselves.... I mean seriously, how many stories do we need to have that drag in Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie?

Rogue Squadron pointed the way and frankly, a whole series spin off of military science fiction could had been made. For space opera, the Jedi were obviously shoo in choices but it should still had been possible to create space opera that didn't involve them. A plucky set of rebel heroes set to save the day. Indeed, the comic series were FULL of such characters....... but they chose to drag in Luke to act as some kinda cruxstone that held the heroes together.

[Coyote]

Looking back, yeah, the original series wasn't so bad, and it was EU Jedi that got more out of control.

The fact that I'm inherently iffy on any supernatural/magic/uber-psi powers in science fiction also biases my perceptions, no doubt.

[jollyreaper]

Looking back, yeah, the original series wasn't so bad, and it was EU Jedi that got more out of control.

The fact that I'm inherently iffy on any supernatural/magic/uber-psi powers in science fiction also biases my perceptions, no doubt.

It's wedded into the very fabric of Star Wars. Trying to do without the Jedi and force powers is like having a western without horses.

[Gunhead]

Looking back, yeah, the original series wasn't so bad, and it was EU Jedi that got more out of control.

The fact that I'm inherently iffy on any supernatural/magic/uber-psi powers in science fiction also biases my perceptions, no doubt.

It's wedded into the very fabric of Star Wars. Trying to do without the Jedi and force powers is like having a western without horses.

I don't think Coyote is saying the force should be taken out of Star Wars, he's more objecting to the way it has become a Marvel like super power. Writers have been piling on more and more shit you can do with the force and we reach a point where every other hero in a story is totally eclipsed by the jedi. I too am inherently iffy of supernatural/magic/uber-psi powers in science fiction
but that's because they're usually done badly and just serve as a fall back to mystical "ancient ways" or similar shit.

-Gunhead

[jollyreaper]

I'm actually in agreement with you on that part. Per my post above, Jedi powers should be scaled back. They provide an edge but are not all-dominating. Luke provides something as a character but so do Han and Chewie. It's not Superman and Jimmy Olsen here. But there's always the tendency for bad writers to buff up the supernatural abilities of characters they're writing for and marginalize the ones who aren't superpowered.

The Jedi aren't greek gods. Their precog abilities should only extend a few seconds into the future as more of a spidey sense than anything else. Those very rare few who actually have a sense of the shape of the future MUST have blind spots that can be exploited, see Palpatine and his planet-sized arrogance. Jedi minds are sharp but they're not superhuman. They can be fooled, they can be deceived, they can make mistakes. Being awesome with a lightsaber accounts for nothing if you're not where the fight is.

Vader's role in the first movie was balanced. He was the emperor's hatchet man, an enforcer. He was not above Tarkin on the pecking order. It wasn't his job to run projects like the Death Star or particular planets or being tied down in one place. There were Moffs and admirals for all that. His job was to go where the Emperor needed particular attention and make things happen.

Of course, there could also be an attenuation of power as the Empire goes on. In many dictatorships there's a greater sense of familiarity between the old guard who were comrades with the dictator before he seized power. Later, as power grows more secure, those old guard either die off or are killed and the younger people filling their roles might be more subservient and terrified. Tarkin could stand up to Vader but the guy on Death Star II (Jerjerod?) was pissing his pants.

The nature of the imperial fleet from Empire was not made completely clear. I believe the situation is that Vader's flagship was one he used as a symbol of power but the fleet that went with it would be assigned as needed. The sense I got from Vader coming in there was that of a turnaround specialist straightening things out, just like he found new ways to motivate the Death Star's construction team.

[PainRack]

I'm actually in agreement with you on that part. Per my post above, Jedi powers should be scaled back. They provide an edge but are not all-dominating. Luke provides something as a character but so do Han and Chewie. It's not Superman and Jimmy Olsen here. But there's always the tendency for bad writers to buff up the supernatural abilities of characters they're writing for and marginalize the ones who aren't superpowered.

The Jedi aren't greek gods. Their precog abilities should only extend a few seconds into the future as more of a spidey sense than anything else. Those very rare few who actually have a sense of the shape of the future MUST have blind spots that can be exploited, see Palpatine and his planet-sized arrogance. Jedi minds are sharp but they're not superhuman. They can be fooled, they can be deceived, they can make mistakes. Being awesome with a lightsaber accounts for nothing if you're not where the fight is.

To be honest, I prefer it if the Jedi skills with the lightsabre is rolled back for the prequels. The movies showed us absolutely shitty Jedi lightsabre work. Chalk it up to inexperience, but I think it would be nice to actually have Jedi Knights/Masters be lousy fighters.

Of course, there could also be an attenuation of power as the Empire goes on. In many dictatorships there's a greater sense of familiarity between the old guard who were comrades with the dictator before he seized power. Later, as power grows more secure, those old guard either die off or are killed and the younger people filling their roles might be more subservient and terrified. Tarkin could stand up to Vader but the guy on Death Star II (Jerjerod?) was pissing his pants.

Nitpick. Jerryrod pissed his pants only after Vader told him the Emperor was coming.

The nature of the imperial fleet from Empire was not made completely clear. I believe the situation is that Vader's flagship was one he used as a symbol of power but the fleet that went with it would be assigned as needed. The sense I got from Vader coming in there was that of a turnaround specialist straightening things out, just like he found new ways to motivate the Death Star's construction team.

The EU clarified the situation quite nicely. In ANH, Vader had no military rank or actual powers. The blockade of Tatooine was ordered by Vader, but routed through Tarkin command powers.
By ROTJ however, Vader had become Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces.

What would be more interesting to confirm is just what role Death Squadron played at the battle of Endor. I lean towards Death Squadron deploying only 4-5 ISD along with the Executor.

[jollyreaper]

To be honest, I prefer it if the Jedi skills with the lightsabre is rolled back for the prequels. The movies showed us absolutely shitty Jedi lightsabre work. Chalk it up to inexperience, but I think it would be nice to actually have Jedi Knights/Masters be lousy fighters.

The Kenobi/Vader fight was carried by the drama of the scene. It was weak choreography that I easily forgave because hell, I was probably 4 the first time I saw it and the movie was great. Empire and Jedi had better choreography and it felt impassioned. I understood Lucas' desire to spice it up in the prequels given the influence of the wire-fu in the theaters but it was too much. This has been a problem in all arts for years, not just movies -- you throw too much at the audience and they can't tell what's going on or there's so much spice they can't even tell what they're eating. The cherry on the sundae is the best part but a bowl of nothing but candied cherries quickly becomes nauseating.

The same dynamic played out in Matrix. First movie, very technical but great, emotional fights. Sequels, just throwing way too much at you with no center, no heart.

Nitpick. Jerryrod pissed his pants only after Vader told him the Emperor was coming.

Whenever his bladder let go, it eventually did. I can't imagine Tarkin doing the same in similar circumstances. And what a great example of a minimal role Cushing acted the hell out of. For as little screen time as he got, damn Tarkin's one memorable SOB.

The EU clarified the situation quite nicely. In ANH, Vader had no military rank or actual powers. The blockade of Tatooine was ordered by Vader, but routed through Tarkin command powers.
By ROTJ however, Vader had become Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces.

Which books clarified that? It's all essentially retcon, trying to contextualize what was seen on-screen. In the context of the prequels the timelines seem to fall apart. How would Vader not have that sort of rank by ANH if Palpy took power 18 years before? And he was really working on the Death Star before he became emperor?

The timeline as it appeared before the prequels was Palpy maneuvered himself into power due to one crisis or another. Emergencies required the granting of emergency powers. At some point it becomes an outright empire with him as emperor. The senate becomes the imperial senate but still has the law-making powers. The final power grab was occurring in ANH where they announce the senate has been dissolved, the moffs are ruling by decree, and all semblance of democracy is swept away. And the rebellion goes from being underground to being a major force. Around the time of the Battle of Yavin it looks like the rebels were still consolidating their power structure, supply lines, and recruiting powers. The X-Wing wasn't supposed to be some awesome top of the line fighter stolen from the imperials but old workhorses, like military surplus equipment. The rebels at this point were still essentially guerrillas.

By the time of Empire the Rebels had transitioned from guerrillas to standing fleets/armies. It's unclear just how their supply lines ran. Some of their ships were common kit in the galaxy, repurposed and refitted but it seemed like they had trouble establishing formal bases of operation. They tried setting up Echo Base and it got stomped. So it looked like they were trying to operate from deep space as much as possible, resupplying I guess from the black market. Any official shipyards or planetary bases they constructed would make for an easy target for the imperials to hit. In comparison to real life situations on Earth, it's hard for guerrillas to stand against major governments but, if it gets bad enough, the guerrillas can control provinces within the larger country and it looks more like a proper civil war. It was unclear in the movies as to whether the Empire had lost complete control over planetary systems. If we compare it to Libya right now, ol' Gaddafi went from controlling 100% of his country to about 10%. There are simply too many people pissed at him and not enough loyalist forces to crush them. Compare that with China who right now can come down with overwhelming force anyone who says anything about anything.

What would be more interesting to confirm is just what role Death Squadron played at the battle of Endor. I lean towards Death Squadron deploying only 4-5 ISD along with the Executor.

Given that the Empire seemed to operate as a massive cult of personality, the loss of the Emperor would have seen those forces scatter. With the number of ISD's seen in the fight, they should have still been able to wipe out the Rebel fleet even without the help of the Death Star. But having lost such a potent symbol of power and their dear leader, retreat seems completely inevitable. And the struggling and backstabbing between competing moffs would keep the imperial remnant weak compared to the New Republic. Within the empire as a whole, each system could break one way or another depending on the strength of the imperial apparatus. Openly declare for the Alliance, go independent, ally with an imperial warlord who seems like a more credible threat than the Alliance... Tons of good stories to tell there.

[PainRack]

The Kenobi/Vader fight was carried by the drama of the scene. It was weak choreography that I easily forgave because hell, I was probably 4 the first time I saw it and the movie was great. Empire and Jedi had better choreography and it felt impassioned. I understood Lucas' desire to spice it up in the prequels given the influence of the wire-fu in the theaters but it was too much. This has been a problem in all arts for years, not just movies -- you throw too much at the audience and they can't tell what's going on or there's so much spice they can't even tell what they're eating. The cherry on the sundae is the best part but a bowl of nothing but candied cherries quickly becomes nauseating.

The same dynamic played out in Matrix. First movie, very technical but great, emotional fights. Sequels, just throwing way too much at you with no center, no heart.

To be honest, I don't feel the Kenobi/Vader fight to be very weak choreography, but that's because I watched Japanese samurai film.
I was referring to AOTC and ROTS in particular. Palpatine fight vs Mace Windu, AOTC when a Jedi knight laid his ignited lightsabre on his shoulders. One could had chalk it up to supreme confidence in his skill if it wasn't for the fact that he had god damn lekku that should had bounched and got burnt by the lightsabre when he did that Force Push.

Whenever his bladder let go, it eventually did. I can't imagine Tarkin doing the same in similar circumstances. And what a great example of a minimal role Cushing acted the hell out of. For as little screen time as he got, damn Tarkin's one memorable SOB.

Yeah. But we are referring to very different dynamics here. Jerryrod was reacting to the presence of the ultimate ruler of the Empire. Grand Moff Tarkin was merely responding to the Emperor emissary.

Which books clarified that? It's all essentially retcon, trying to contextualize what was seen on-screen. In the context of the prequels the timelines seem to fall apart. How would Vader not have that sort of rank by ANH if Palpy took power 18 years before? And he was really working on the Death Star before he became emperor?

You're going to have to dig through the various Guides I'm afraid, its a relatively old factoid and I can't recall where it came from.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Supreme_ ... r_(Empire)
The title of Supreme Commander, also Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces, Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, Supreme Fleet Commander, or Supreme Commander of the Imperial Military, was borne in succession by several of the most senior officers in the Imperial military of the Galactic Empire, including Darth Vader before the Battle of Endor,

The timeline as it appeared before the prequels was Palpy maneuvered himself into power due to one crisis or another. Emergencies required the granting of emergency powers. At some point it becomes an outright empire with him as emperor. The senate becomes the imperial senate but still has the law-making powers. The final power grab was occurring in ANH where they announce the senate has been dissolved, the moffs are ruling by decree, and all semblance of democracy is swept away. And the rebellion goes from being underground to being a major force. Around the time of the Battle of Yavin it looks like the rebels were still consolidating their power structure, supply lines, and recruiting powers. The X-Wing wasn't supposed to be some awesome top of the line fighter stolen from the imperials but old workhorses, like military surplus equipment. The rebels at this point were still essentially guerrillas.

Meh..... the various inflation of the Rebel Alliance and etc means that the Rebels were much..... more different than this.

Given that the Empire seemed to operate as a massive cult of personality, the loss of the Emperor would have seen those forces scatter. With the number of ISD's seen in the fight, they should have still been able to wipe out the Rebel fleet even without the help of the Death Star. But having lost such a potent symbol of power and their dear leader, retreat seems completely inevitable. And the struggling and backstabbing between competing moffs would keep the imperial remnant weak compared to the New Republic. Within the empire as a whole, each system could break one way or another depending on the strength of the imperial apparatus. Openly declare for the Alliance, go independent, ally with an imperial warlord who seems like a more credible threat than the Alliance... Tons of good stories to tell there.

You don't seem to understand. Death Squadron and the local sector fleet fought at Endor. The Battle of Bakura sourcebook however gives us very low numbers for the presence of Death Squadron units, this despite other sourcebooks telling us that it was one of the largest(Griff would be the largest) Imperial Armada amassed to hunt down the Rebels.

[Coyote]

I don't think Coyote is saying the force should be taken out of Star Wars, he's more objecting to the way it has become a Marvel like super power.

There we go; that is a better way to phrase it. I have been amazing inarticulate the last few weeks.

[Darth Yan]

what about the force wormholes that palpy generates? or the ritual essence transfer (drew karpyshyn really did make that concept far less retarded in dynasty of evil?) some of the abilities are okay (force light, battle meditation) but yeah the eu does tend to wank thiings out