The Clone Wars Season 3 discussion thread.

[Galvatron]

Given the title of the episode, I was hoping to finally see some of the "heroes on both sides." Padme's senator friend doesn't really qualify, IMO.

[Thanas]

It is absolute bullshit, if you consider that GA Thrawn wouldn't have come very far with his campaign, if the Spaarti-clones he used had really been that inferior.

Yeah, especially as they are always said to be superior to the non-clones.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Fortunately Traviss is gone from SW, unfortunately not soon enough.

You're just jealous that Mandalorians are 'the third side of the blade.'

[Thanas]

What the -?

[PLR2]

I believe that is a reference to the fact that Traviss said that Star Wars is a Three Way battle between the Sith, Jedi and Mandalorians or something similar to that.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Yeah, there's a short story by Traviss where Vergere explains to the Supreme Commander of the Yuuhzan Vong forces Warmaster Tsavong Lah this ridiculous bullshit:

"Warmaster, we think too often in terms of dualism: Jedi or Sith, light or dark, right or wrong. But there are three sides to this blade, not two, opposed and similar at the same time. The third edge is the Mandalorian. All three sides care nothing for caste or species, only adherence to a code that unites. The Mandalorians remain the most formidable enemy of the Jedi: but the Sith are not always their allies. The Mandalorians even worshipped war itself, then simply turned their backs on their god. You might begin to understand them one day."

[Thanas]

Yeah, there's a short story by Traviss where Vergere explains to the Supreme Commander of the Yuuhzan Vong forces Warmaster Tsavong Lah this ridiculous bullshit:

"Warmaster, we think too often in terms of dualism: Jedi or Sith, light or dark, right or wrong. But there are three sides to this blade, not two, opposed and similar at the same time. The third edge is the Mandalorian. All three sides care nothing for caste or species, only adherence to a code that unites. The Mandalorians remain the most formidable enemy of the Jedi: but the Sith are not always their allies. The Mandalorians even worshipped war itself, then simply turned their backs on their god. You might begin to understand them one day."

The most formidable enemy of the Jedi? Weren't these the guys who got their behinds kicked by said Jedi so royally that they never recovered? And whose champion was rather useless when it came to killing Jedi? Heck, Ventress alone killed more Jedi than the Mandalorians we see after said war. Heck, Aurra Sing killed more.

Yeah, Traviss really lost perspective here.

[Talhe]

Well, Vergere did say 'Everything I tell you is a lie'...

Which is the only way this statement can be reconciled with her. Yet another reason to be thankful for the Clone Wars; getting rid of Karen Traviss.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Yeah, especially as they are always said to be superior to the non-clones.

You wouldn't happen to have the quote or relevant passage would you? I gave my Thrawn books away years ago and I don't know where the quote is.

[Thanas]

Yeah, especially as they are always said to be superior to the non-clones.

You wouldn't happen to have the quote or relevant passage would you? I gave my Thrawn books away years ago and I don't know where the quote is.

There are a few. One is for example when Karrde springs a few smuggler buddies after being persued by two lancer frigates, Kardde explicitly notes that the speed and skill of the response of the lancer crews means they are fully staffed and probably even with clones due to their efficiency. Then you also get the same thing during the fighter battles, which is even referenced in Isard's Revenge, where some Rogues comment on how the skill of the pilots had improved sufficiently and that they can all believe them to be clones due to that. And of course there is the Battle of Bothawui, where a squadron of Fel clones performs maneuvers Han did not think to be possible.

My books are in storage, so no direct quotes, sorry.

[FTeik]

There is also a quote in TLC, where Pash Cracken and Wedge Antilles have a chit-chat about a battle lost before the briefing for the battle of Bilbringi. Pash Cracken muses about the fact, that the TIEs had been flying maneuvers he hadn't thought possible and that Thrawn must have been cloning his best people.

Another evidence of the quality of the Spaarti-clones is the HoT. The clones left from Thrawn's campaign are so good, that Moff Disra even rents them out as "advisors" to pirates and anybody, who wants to cause trouble for the Republic.

[Talhe]

If one decides to go by game stats, the clones presented in the West End Games Thrawn Trilogy are all fairly elite. Of course, game stats are fairly low canon, and West End Games had problems with numbers in general.

[Adam Reynolds]

There is also a quote in TLC, where Pash Cracken and Wedge Antilles have a chit-chat about a battle lost before the briefing for the battle of Bilbringi. Pash Cracken muses about the fact, that the TIEs had been flying maneuvers he hadn't thought possible and that Thrawn must have been cloning his best people.

Another evidence of the quality of the Spaarti-clones is the HoT. The clones left from Thrawn's campaign are so good, that Moff Disra even rents them out as "advisors" to pirates and anybody, who wants to cause trouble for the Republic.

Don't forget the scene in Vision of the Future where the clones of Sootnir Fel rescue Han from the tractor beam of a Star Destroyer in the Battle of Bothawui. Han commented on how amazing it was to see the dozen Fel clones go against the Star Destroyer, methodically picking it apart before it could react.

[Thanas]

Already posted, look above.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I generally reject game stats, especially since the most recent stats for a Spaarti clone has them as worse than standard Stormtrooper despite the narrative of the Thrawn Trilogy explicitly saying different.

Stormtroopers in the Saga Edition are 4th Lvl Nonheroics, the Spaartis are the same except they all have clone madness which upon being reduced to half hitpoints (they only have 10hp to begin with so that's often) they half to roll a D6. On 1-3 they act normally, on a 4 they attack the closest target friend or foe, on a 5 they don't threaten spaces next to them, and on a 6 they attack allies. Making no distinction between Spaarti that have been left to gestate for the requisite time 1yr normally or 20 days with Ysalamari) and those who haven't.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's nothing wrong with the "Spaarti clones being qualitatively less superior than Kaminoan clones" if you trim away Traviss' own peculiar biases on the issue (eg, her Mandalorian bent on things.) The Clone troopers were absurdly over-trained (10 years of development and training just to fight a war? THat is in no way practical in a long term conflict.) I dont think you'd need more than a year practically to train a decent soldier anyhow.

For that matter we don't really have any benchmarks to compare beyond "old clones" and "new clones". For all we know the new clones were qualtiatively inferior in some or most ways to the old clones, but they were still as good or better as any other troops available (at the time, at least.) Hell, they only need to be competent for the task, they don't have to be supermen, so perhaps a trade off in quality is acceptable in order for quantity to be accomdoated (more troops of a lower quality is not unreasonable.) There's also the matter of Mandalorian bias as well, but that pretty much falls under the "no other benchmarks to compare on".

The one qualifer on that is we dont know alot about the techniques and methods by which "clone training/teaching" actually hpapens (or for anyone in general) and what sorts of drawbacks or flaws or conditions it may or may not have attached. I do remember that the Thrawn Trilogy made mention that the year was the MINIMUM but that such clones were not "insta perfect" -there was a bit of a sliding scale there (3 to 5 years "just to be safe" or something to that effect I recall.) And it could also quite likely vary depending on what sort of clone you are trying to create - not all disciplines and training is going to be equal. And it can also depend what you are teaching them (how to shoot and maintain you rgun, drill and tactics, and such could be one thing, but are you giving them any education beyond that? And if so, how much and of what kind?)

[Talhe]

I suppose one question is whether flash-training is effective or not (the evidence seems to suggest it is). As mentioned above, the clones seen in the Thrawn Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn Duology seem to be incredibly well-trained, despite having had very little time for flash learning. And the Grodin Tierce clone seemed to be a excellent fighter and tactician as well.

Perhaps the quality of the flash training and personality used for it is the real determinator.
/end thoughts

[Ritterin Sophia]

So, I just watched the newest episode, it's pretty much a direct insertion of the American political system and the Iraq War. Pretty much the highlights are learning that the Clone Wars are affecting the economy and they're going farther and farther into debt and having to make cuts to social programs, with a big emphasis put on healthcare.

[Srelex]

Yeah; watching the last episode with all the banking stuff, I wonder just what the screenwriters are thinking.

Anyway, this being SDN, I must ask if they mentioned any numbers.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, I just watched the newest episode, it's pretty much a direct insertion of the American political system and the Iraq War. Pretty much the highlights are learning that the Clone Wars are affecting the economy and they're going farther and farther into debt and having to make cuts to social programs, with a big emphasis put on healthcare.

Their Iraq war paralels were limited to the use of a suicide bomb to disrupt negotiations, and the fact that the Republic can't really afford the war. The latter could not doubt apply to a lot of other wars.

Regarding the "big emphasis put on healthcare" I only remember a single time it was brought up. They made it clear that everything was being effected by the war.

On the plus side, we got more of the Coruscant police and Bail Organa kicking ass

[Talhe]

Yeah; watching the last episode with all the banking stuff, I wonder just what the screenwriters are thinking.

Anyway, this being SDN, I must ask if they mentioned any numbers.

The Banking Clan is charging 25% interest for the Republic loan to fund more troops; the previous rate was 10%. It's called outright robbery by Padme.

The Senator from Kamino says that the new loan would get the Republic 5 million new troops. (Down with Traviss, whoo!)

On the other hand, the Banking Clan mentions that the CIS just got a new loan for purchasing 3... million droids. They could be advanced models, but still.

Is it a bad thing that I find the fact that a show meant for children can produce a much more stirring message on war and funding basic needs then many politicians and columnists?

[TC Pilot]

That was a pretty neat episode, probably the best I've seen. Selkath bounty hunter, Palpatine's moustache twirling at the end, things of that nature.

It seemed to me like the animators when berserk in this one, because the sheer amount of wild gesticulating was downright silly at times. Actually, there was a lot of silly things, probably juxtaposed against the presumably rather dry central plot: Padme's ridiculous hairdo is actually a wig (or possibly a hat), Peter Gunn theme playing in the cantina (a topless Twi'lek dancing, too), and such.

Certainly a good enough episode to offset Padme's endlessly-grating character. I guess her being shown as something of a hypocrite helped for me.

Really, now that I think about it, the sheer amount of stuff crammed into this episode was quite impressive.

[Metahive]

The Banking Clan is a major backer of the CIS, the Republic even considered it necessary to conquer its headquarters on Muunilinst and yet that meshpoke is still allowed to go about its business on its own terms? Why do I get the impression the Republic isn't treating the war with the necessary conviction?

[Vympel]

That was a pretty neat episode, probably the best I've seen. Selkath bounty hunter, Palpatine's moustache twirling at the end, things of that nature.

It seemed to me like the animators when berserk in this one, because the sheer amount of wild gesticulating was downright silly at times. Actually, there was a lot of silly things, probably juxtaposed against the presumably rather dry central plot: Padme's ridiculous hairdo is actually a wig (or possibly a hat), Peter Gunn theme playing in the cantina (a topless Twi'lek dancing, too), and such.

Certainly a good enough episode to offset Padme's endlessly-grating character. I guess her being shown as something of a hypocrite helped for me.

Really, now that I think about it, the sheer amount of stuff crammed into this episode was quite impressive.

Ugh. Seriously?

I personally can't believe we're now eleven episodes in and there's just been a massive fuckload of these incredibly boring Senate episodes. Seriously, there hasn't been a battle episode since the beginning of the season.

And we see some lovely uber-minimalist nonsense as well:-

* Paying for 5 million additional clone troopers (which is a whole other kettle of fish) is somehow too costly? Unless the Republic is already stretched to the limit in terms of expenditures already and this is the straw that breaks the camel's back, this should barely be a blip;

*LOL @ the Banking Clan saying the Separatists have already put out a loan for 3 million additional battle droids and the Republic senator worrying they'll be wiped out. When the same show already tells us that the Separatists have them outnumbered "100 to one"? What, an extra 3 million is going to tip the balance?

Just a tsunami of stupid.

Oh yeah, that reminds me - the 5 million additional clones. Where are these guys coming from? Doesn't it take 10 years to grow a clone? What, are we to assume Kamino is growing these guys just in case the Republic wants to buy more? And if it doesn't? What, they just eat the cost? So stupid. Either that, or they're just tossing the whole 10 year cloning thing, or simply ignoring it because they want to have their Incredibly Boring Senate Plots.

EDIT: on the positive side, Padme does explicitly mention that the soldiers of the Republic also include those supplied by all its systems, not just those of the clone factories. I suppose economic cost does make much more sense if every planet is contributing so much to the war effort that there's not much cash left for much else, on top of already existing debt.

[Metahive]

After the Tartakovsky Clone Wars went all the way to the maximalist side, including having a single Acclamator deploy around a thousand LAATs and battlefields filled to the horizon with combatants, this series is fairly consistent when it comes to keeping the numbers down. A dozen fighters or so are shot down and that somehow constitutes half of what three Venators can bring to bear for example.
I presume this is due to technical limitations, it could be that whatever hardware they render the series on would be overwhelmed by battles with a more appropriate size for the setting. I also presume that "political" episodes are very cheap to render considering they contain mostly people talking.