Traviss quits SW

[Havok]

Err-why would they automatically have a Jedi type soldier of their own?

Given a galactic population that presumably was aged the same as the main SW galaxy, the idea that they would not have discovered and made use of the Force is pretty ridiculous.

[PainRack]

To be fair, the NR supposedly incompetence was actually an idea that could had been brought off VERY well and nicely. Afterall, the NR as it was displayed in the earlier EU is incompetent and displays a lot of the natural displays of nepotism, ill-discipline and other sins of a South American rebellion.

It was passed off as heroism, but seriously, when your only real competent militayr forces are Wedge, Ackbar and other "elite" units and they're illdisciplined shuffled around to meet crisis after crisis..... well, they are incompetent.

The problem was they never did have a real good coherent idea of how to deploy this and jacked it around as a story obstacle the hero must overcome, instead of a well developed theme and arc on its own.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Is the skywalker book called Abyss? If so it might be good, cause from what I've heard about it it seems quite good, Especially since Luke is apparently quite badass in it.

It's Outcast. Abyss is the 3rd book in a 9-book series, the first of which is 'Outcast'. So if it's got badass luke, I'll check it out.

Edit: The NJO definitely had some cringeworthy (or facepalm-ish) moments. The worst of those was (in my opinion) the fall of Coruscant. Admiral Sov was forced to direct the battle FROM THE SENATE FLOOR while the government watched, and often had his orders countermanded by this or that representative. It got so bad that Bel Ibis took command of the fleet illegally to smash an evacuation corridor through the vong fleet for the escaping citizens.

[Darth Yan]

Outcast has some interesting parts but not enough action. Abyss has Luke Spoiler

take out several sith warriors who are armed to the teeth with weapons while he's exhausted. And we see Jacen and Anakin Solo as ghosts. That should please the fanboys

.

[Stofsk]

There's another 9-part series, after the last one concluded? Good lord.

Say what you will about the Bantam era EU, but at least they limited themselves to trilogies at most (but usually stand alones or sometimes duologies).

[Tiriol]

There's another 9-part series, after the last one concluded? Good lord.

Say what you will about the Bantam era EU, but at least they limited themselves to trilogies at most (but usually stand alones or sometimes duologies).

I think that they try to use these mammoth series to close the gap between the Legacy era and the "classical" era (Bantam run books/NJO/Legacy of the Force) in some form of logical development and timeline. Of course, what they have achieved is Robert Jordan -level of useless pages and idiotic characters and galaxy-threatening situations.

Although I heavily dislike how the New Republic was portrayed, it at least show SOME logic: after all, the Rebels who ended up establishing a new galactic government after the Empire's defeat had only witnessed and lived under the Ruusan-reformed Republic, so their nostalgia was focused on it and thus the New Republic was a consious attempt to mimic that form of government (although I do wonder what effect Bail Organa's survival might have had on the government's development; he seemed to be more active and clear-headed than most of the Rebel/NR political leadership). And consequently, ever since the Clone Wars the galaxy seemed to have endured one crisis after another so the people have grown used to it. They don't treat it as abnormality, but rather as business as usual. So all in all, the galactic political (and maybe even military) leadership has grown and use their influence during times when the population is used to galaxy-spanning crisis and whose ideal government seems to be either an autocratic, non-democratic dictatorship or a bloated, bureaucratic and weak republic.

[Stofsk]

Obviously, there is still a market for SW novels so it doesn't strike me as a bad decision from a marketing perspective, but rather a creatively bankrupt decision. Even if you have series, which sci-fi and fantasy is full of, it strikes me as more desireable to limit it to trilogies at most, because a trilogy is an easy sequence to tell a story over: book one, beginning; major characters and antagonists are introduced, as is the important details of the setting that affect the plot. Book two, middle; the plot thickens, so to speak, and will end in a cliff hanger. Book three, the end, the climax, the culmination of all the plot threads and character development that leads to the pay off the reader expects.

The last 9 part series was co-written by what, 3 authors? One of whom is downright mediocre, the other terrible, and one who happens to be decent. That means a third of the series is worth reading, but you have to read the whole series to know that. And like you say, all the plots are regurgitated nonsense anyway. Star Wars is a setting that does thrive on conflict, but the way the EU handles it is asinine.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think that they try to use these mammoth series to close the gap between the Legacy era and the "classical" era (Bantam run books/NJO/Legacy of the Force) in some form of logical development and timeline. Of course, what they have achieved is Robert Jordan -level of useless pages and idiotic characters and galaxy-threatening situations.

And to keep spinning out the reasons for people to keep buying novels. If you buy one novel in a series you probably end up having to buy the other eight to see what happens. I suspect money is the primary motivation for that. The only reason they don't try repeating the New JEdi ORder scope is that it wsa probably too complicated and unwieldy. But it is possible they want to "link up" with the Legacy era too (God knows why)

Although I heavily dislike how the New Republic was portrayed, it at least show SOME logic: after all, the Rebels who ended up establishing a new galactic government after the Empire's defeat had only witnessed and lived under the Ruusan-reformed Republic, so their nostalgia was focused on it and thus the New Republic was a consious attempt to mimic that form of government (although I do wonder what effect Bail Organa's survival might have had on the government's development; he seemed to be more active and clear-headed than most of the Rebel/NR political leadership).

The Empire functionally was the same as the Republic, just more of a usurpation, so re-starting the Republic makes some sense. The main difference being that the Empire-NR transition was bloodlier relatively speaking and thus more fragmented than the REpublic- Empire transition (no Jedi for one thing). The problem came in "keeping" things together which they didn't, and that largely came about early on because of the lack of continuity (EG DArk Empire stuff coming out so soon, et.c)

And consequently, ever since the Clone Wars the galaxy seemed to have endured one crisis after another so the people have grown used to it. They don't treat it as abnormality, but rather as business as usual. So all in all, the galactic political (and maybe even military) leadership has grown and use their influence during times when the population is used to galaxy-spanning crisis and whose ideal government seems to be either an autocratic, non-democratic dictatorship or a bloated, bureaucratic and weak republic.

Well in reality I think the SW galaxy would be rather fractious and difficult to manage as portrayed, since the REpublic was rather stagnant and self interested and all that (For some reason SW government seems to copycat US government, so self interest of member states is a big part of things). The thing is, however, the SCALE of the conflicts owuld differ. You would probably be having alot of smaller/local sorts of conflicts popping up (say at the Sector level, or maybe at worst regional level) that might threaten parts of the Republic (or important parts of it). You wouldn't be having a galaxy-spanning crisis pop up every few years or so (like we did see happen, and keep seeing happening.) because then it becomes episodic and lesss believable (becoming more like Voyager, actually.)

Keeping things "small" not only is believable in terms of scope of threats but it also makes the problems of minimalism in a technical sense less of an issue, since you can reasonably have millions/billions of troops on a smaller scale (as opposed to a galactic) and you have less chance of things affecting the galaxy at large. There are tons of stories they could have told in an intact NR that wasnt constantly getting harassed by random threats of the week: trying to convince former Republic members who abandoned it at the time of the Empire (or had been enslaved by the Empire) to join the NR; conflicts with the warlords and various remnants on the Empire operating on a local scale; facing off in local (inter-system or inter sector) conflicts between opposing governments/factions/corporations/whatever.

Hell you could have had novels that echo the days of the Han Solo or Lando Calrissian novels wher you have smuggling and the exploration of weird but smaller (realtively speaking) places like the Corporate Sector.

It's also worth noting that the novels work better when they simply use the SW universe as established as a setting to tell stories rathre than trying to influence or expand on/beyond it, the latter being much of what they've been trying to do from the Post-Endor time onwards and which accounts for alot of the hit/miss of the thing. And why the further they try expanding the worse things don't work, since most of the time it amounts to try to "redoing" the OT theme, or (in the case of the LOTF series onwards it would seem) basically trying to "re boot" the franchise (oh no, an evil empire rising up! Again! Civil war and civil unrest! Again! More Evil Sith-err sith like entities! again! )

The Clone Wars novels have (IMHO) stayed mostly decent because of that (Including Traviss work prior to the latter half of Triple Zero) and alot of the NJO worked in that regard too as individual novels (Allston's and Luceno's duologies were great) whereas the overall arc sucked. Hell for all their ripping off of the fighter games, the X-wing novels were great because they were largely more "local" in scope than much of the other novels. So was the Black Fleet crisis (I don't remember the Yevetha actually being portrayed as a massive galaxy-spanning threat for one thing, and I'm ignoring the "hunt for Luke's mother" subplot that went nowhere.)

As far as Zahn's trilogy goes, well.. I think thats largely an exception because it kicked things off. The whole "save the galaxy" angle hadn't been worn out yet (Same with Dark Empire) - one or two times was believable. Ten or fifteen becomes difficult to swallow... (EG The Hand of Thrawn Duology..)

My buying pattern for Star Wars novels is mostly fixed at this point: I'll probably buy the "stand alone" stuff or stuff that operates on a smaller scale rathre than massive arcs - which means PT and OT timelines only, and MAYBE standalone post NJO novels if I know/like ethe author (I'll still buy Luceno's work for example.)

[Guardsman Bass]

Hell for all their ripping off of the fighter games, the X-wing novels were great because they were largely more "local" in scope than much of the other novels.

In terms of operations and characters, maybe - but they did touch upon some of the issues facing the New Republic in that period as a whole, like dealing with Zsing and the other post-Imperial Era warlords that were fighting each other and the New Republic.

Ten or fifteen becomes difficult to swallow... (EG The Hand of Thrawn Duology..)

Wasn't the "Hand of Thrawn" duology more about an internal crisis within the Republic over
Spoiler

the Bothan role in the BDZ of Caamas? I don't recall it ever being a serious threat to the Republic.

[Batman]

Hell for all their ripping off of the fighter games, the X-wing novels were great because they were largely more "local" in scope than much of the other novels.

In terms of operations and characters, maybe - but they did touch upon some of the issues facing the New Republic in that period as a whole, like dealing with Zsinj and the other post-Imperial Era warlords that were fighting each other and the New Republic.

Key phrase being the New Republic IN THAT PERIOD, which was still in the process of forming (was, in fact, not all that much more than a relabled Rebel Alliance). Even by the time they had retaken Coruscant and established a fledgeling actual New Republic as per the Wraith Squadron novels they're still comparatively tiny.

Wasn't the "Hand of Thrawn" duology more about an internal crisis within the Republic over
the Bothan role in the BDZ of Caamas? I don't recall it ever being a serious threat to the Republic.

It WAS a serious threat to the Republic, as in it was supposed to and very much looked like it would succeed in throwing the Republic into a full-fledged Civil War. No, it was no massive external military threat, but it was definitely a threat to the existence of the New Republic.

[Tiriol]

Wasn't the "Hand of Thrawn" duology more about an internal crisis within the Republic over
Spoiler

the Bothan role in the BDZ of Caamas? I don't recall it ever being a serious threat to the Republic.

I'm not really sure if we need that spoiler anymore, since the duology has been out longer than NJO.

The problem with the duology's portrayal of the Republic was that the Republic was just about to dissolve into a civil war over the skies of Bothawui. The Chief of State was even ready to use the non-existent threat of Pellaeon's Imperial Remnant to keep the member worlds and species from starting a civil war that would have ripped the Republic apart. And once again a plucky and a lucky band of heroes (while being aided by no other than Talon Karrde and his lovable band of rogues) stop this from happening. So yes, even that duology included a serious threat (even if internal) to the Republic.

However, I'm somewhat willing to give Zahn some slack on this. He had to work with the established canon, which happened to include many examples of the New Republic being near collapse or at least disturbingly slow to do anything to save its own arse, let alone anyone else's (at least Zahn's original trilogy had a viable reason for this: the Rebel Alliance hadn't had that much of a time to turn themselves into a galactic government, so their military assets were still weak, especially with the Empire still harassing them). And at least he had the guts to end the (at that point) largely pointless and useless "galactic civil war" in which the Imperials were defeated time and time again thanks to their own incompetence and ludicrous reliance on superweapons or some Dark Jedi/similar creature. Of course, the duology showed signs of Zahn making his own favourite characters better in all aspects than all the others (and the way how he keeps portraying Vader just pisses me off).

[Thanas]

^He also came up with at least a semi-workable idea why the NR is not a strong central state - what with so many of their fleets tied up in police work.

[Connor MacLeod]

In terms of operations and characters, maybe - but they did touch upon some of the issues facing the New Republic in that period as a whole, like dealing with Zsing and the other post-Imperial Era warlords that were fighting each other and the New Republic.

Dealing with Zsinj and the other warlords is perhaps one of the things I liked as it indicates there is more in the galaxy going on and tha tthe New Republic is facing rather that one galaxy-spanning threat. Isard wasn't even one "all encompassing galactic threat" that would superweapon the NR or Galaxy into submission. Her plan was more of crippling and weakening them into defeat (which was handled somewhat clumsily I will admit, but wa sstill an interesting idea at least. No uber force weapons or hidden weapons Palpatine forgot or left sitting.

Admittedly Allston did a better job then Stackpole in this regard, but Stackpole (story wise, not tech wise) was okay as long as you avoided Corran fucking Horn. As for Allston, I'll love him forever for his depiction of Zsinj. he turned a minor foe from Courtship of princess leia into a more complex and interesting adversary. And ther was Ton Phanan and Face...

Wasn't the "Hand of Thrawn" duology more about an internal crisis within the Republic over
Spoiler

the Bothan role in the BDZ of Caamas? I don't recall it ever being a serious threat to the Republic.

[/quote]

You do recall that it was basically supposed to be OMGTHRAWNISBACKPANICPANICPANIC right? That's "super weapon" nonsense right there. I don't mind the internal strife in the least, or the idea that the Remnant might be trying to expand, but Disra (And Tierce) were clearly aiming for destroying the Republic.. which 15 years after Endor had become a little tiresome. It would have been more plausible and interesting if disra/Tierce had merely aimed for disrupting it with more intentions of say, expanding the Empire, and/or gaining greater influence with the NR (Zahn could have, for example, tied that in with The New REbellion or prior things.)

And lets not forget the whole "UNKNOWN SUPAH EVIL IN THE UNKNOWN REGIONS" we were getting foreshadowed, and never went anywhere.

Mind you, I'll still give Zahn some credit that he hasn't completely backslid into the thrawn wanking of later (Outbound Flight for example) but the elements are more obvious here.

[Connor MacLeod]

The problem with the duology's portrayal of the Republic was that the Republic was just about to dissolve into a civil war over the skies of Bothawui. The Chief of State was even ready to use the non-existent threat of Pellaeon's Imperial Remnant to keep the member worlds and species from starting a civil war that would have ripped the Republic apart. And once again a plucky and a lucky band of heroes (while being aided by no other than Talon Karrde and his lovable band of rogues) stop this from happening. So yes, even that duology included a serious threat (even if internal) to the Republic.

However, I'm somewhat willing to give Zahn some slack on this. He had to work with the established canon, which happened to include many examples of the New Republic being near collapse or at least disturbingly slow to do anything to save its own arse, let alone anyone else's (at least Zahn's original trilogy had a viable reason for this: the Rebel Alliance hadn't had that much of a time to turn themselves into a galactic government, so their military assets were still weak, especially with the Empire still harassing them).

I actually think he could have avoided this. Destabilization of the New Republic and the continued agitation/terrorism could have been a sufficient goal in and of itself (keeping their interests focused inwards and distracted.) especially if the Imperials had been making overtures to pro-Imperial elements that were, as I recall, supposedly in the NR government at tha ttime (as I recall in New REbellion Kueller had assasinated the Senate to allow pro-Imperial reperesentatives in as opposition to the New Republic) and Zahn could have played on that as a key point in the plans (and it probably would have been more plausible - gaining greater influence with the Senate would have been a good way to undermine the NR)

And at least he had the guts to end the (at that point) largely pointless and useless "galactic civil war" in which the Imperials were defeated time and time again thanks to their own incompetence and ludicrous reliance on superweapons or some Dark Jedi/similar creature.

Only towards the end of the series And the Imperials still remained a semi-autonamous force which thereby became more powerful and supplanted the NR (Yet again) though I don't hwolly blame him for that.

Of course, the duology showed signs of Zahn making his own favourite characters better in all aspects than all the others (and the way how he keeps portraying Vader just pisses me off).

Yes, which got worse in later series. Like with Stackpole and Corran Horn, his character crations were likeable as long as h wasn't writing them.

[Darth Fanboy]

And lets not forget the whole "UNKNOWN SUPAH EVIL IN THE UNKNOWN REGIONS" we were getting foreshadowed, and never went anywhere.

Once the NJO was released I sort of assumed that this was some iteration of the Vong, is that not possible?

[Guardsman Bass]

You do recall that it was basically supposed to be OMGTHRAWNISBACKPANICPANICPANIC right? That's "super weapon" nonsense right there.

Sort of - but how devastating was that believed to have been in the story? I remember either Han or Leia at some point mentioning that when Thrawn made his first attempt, he had about a quarter of the Empire's resources - whereas now he had almost nothing (that was before the massive Unknown Space crap, which I now remember - thanks).

okay as long as you avoided Corran fucking Horn.

This is going to get me burned, but - was there something heavily wrong about Corran's portrayal in the X-Wing series that wasn't apparent in I, Jedi? He never struck me as a particularly odious character or Gary Stu - he's a competent Jedi, but not a super-star or super-strong one like Kyp Durron was in the Jedi Academy series (I remember the part where he gets his ass kicked by the Jensaarai, at which point Luke appears and more or less takes down all six or seven of them).

Anyways, this is deviating off from the topic on my part, so I'll stop with it here if you want.

[Darth Paxis]

And lets not forget the whole "UNKNOWN SUPAH EVIL IN THE UNKNOWN REGIONS" we were getting foreshadowed, and never went anywhere.

Once the NJO was released I sort of assumed that this was some iteration of the Vong, is that not possible?

If I remember, in Outbound Flight, Thrawn mentions that the threat is the Vong, although he doesn't refer to them by name. I think that it is in the part when Thrawn is talking to Sidious, and Sidious uses this to convince Thrawn to destroy Outbound Flight before it runs into the Vong. At least that's what I remember, I haven't read the book in a long time.

[CaptainChewbacca]

This is going to get me burned, but - was there something heavily wrong about Corran's portrayal in the X-Wing series that wasn't apparent in I, Jedi? He never struck me as a particularly odious character or Gary Stu - he's a competent Jedi, but not a super-star or super-strong one like Kyp Durron was in the Jedi Academy series (I remember the part where he gets his ass kicked by the Jensaarai, at which point Luke appears and more or less takes down all six or seven of them).

I, Jedi was the problem. He used force powers to become BATMAN, and he not only out-fought most other jedi with a lightsaber, but he was a dick about being right to Luke and decided he was too smart/good/awesome to finish training at the Yavin academy.

Anyways, this is deviating off from the topic on my part, so I'll stop with it here if you want.[/quote]

[Darth Fanboy]

I couldn't stand Horn in the X-Wing books because he could seemingly do no wrong, with the high point of wankery being the taking of Coruscant, where he took out a bunch of enemies with a z-95 Headhunter before apparently being killed. But instead of dying, it was all part of a secret plot by Isard to capture him! Why capture him when they could have easily killed him i'm not sure, because Isard already had an agent within Rogue Squadron. But she sets up an elaborate scheme to get him and then Horn breaks free from her prison and brainwashing eventually anyways. Then he miraculously discovers his Jedi heritage. Corran Horn is a fanfic character. He later goes on to participate in the liberation of Thyferra, and the ridiculous X-Wing wank contained therin.

Addendum:

Although I think it's hilarious how he had sex with a Selonian.

[Crazedwraith]

Do no wrong, except, you know, constantly accuse an innocent man of being a spy? Wandering off in Coruscant and nearly getting himself killed? Trying (while untrained) to mind trick a storm trooper and getting him and his entire team's cover busted and almost dying in the ensuing firefight? That kind of do no wrong?

As for I,Jedi which other Jedi did he out fight? I remember one sparring match with Gantoris and one with Luke and Luke was just toying with him. When he got serious he pretty much wiped Corran out in two seconds flat. As to I,Jedi, does 'do no wrong' cover missing one incredibly obvious fact and then basing your entire plan on a faulty premise? So Exar Kun pretty much beats him up at will? How about being impatient enough to ditch your training halfway through and run off to play pirate? And while playing pirate, getting so into it, you forget bout you actually aim and start seriously considering shacking up the pirate queen and be her bitch?

Seriously though I can see where 'Corran=Mary Sue' comes from after all he's a cop, a fighter pilot, a jedi and a main character. (never mind that force sensitivity in the EU pretty much grants super flying skill anyway) But most damning of all, I,Jedi is a [url=fhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.FixFic]Fixfic[/url] which is pretty damn silly.

[Darth Fanboy]

Do no wrong, except, you know, constantly accuse an innocent man of being a spy? Wandering off in Coruscant and nearly getting himself killed? Trying (while untrained) to mind trick a storm trooper and getting him and his entire team's cover busted and almost dying in the ensuing firefight? That kind of do no wrong?

And he had the gall to survive all of that unscathed!

[Duckie]

Guys is it confirmed we won't hear or see any more bloody Mando'a anymore? I die a little inside every time I see that shit. I don't even read Star Wars EU and it pisses me off knowing that such a terrible conlang* exists, let alone seeing examples of it.

I made one as bad as it once, but I was 11 and it was for a D&D campaign so I have an excuse.
*I could post a huge rant post explaining why Mando'a is so terrible, but nobody would care.

[JME2]

And lets not forget the whole "UNKNOWN SUPAH EVIL IN THE UNKNOWN REGIONS" we were getting foreshadowed, and never went anywhere.

Once the NJO was released I sort of assumed that this was some iteration of the Vong, is that not possible?

If I remember, in Outbound Flight, Thrawn mentions that the threat is the Vong, although he doesn't refer to them by name. I think that it is in the part when Thrawn is talking to Sidious, and Sidious uses this to convince Thrawn to destroy Outbound Flight before it runs into the Vong. At least that's what I remember, I haven't read the book in a long time.

IIRC, Zahn was asked to put that into VoTF; the Vong were still being formulated, hence the cryptic reference. And yes, the Vong were also referred to in OF.(on a side note, if you're focusing on the EU and the movies, I kinda like how it gives additional resonance to Sidious' timing for the execution of his galactic takeover plan).

[Drooling Iguana]

*I could post a huge rant post explaining why Mando'a is so terrible, but nobody would care.

I'm procrastinating on starting a writing project that would involve creating an artificial language, so I'd be interested in some examples of what not to do.

[Galvatron]

I couldn't stand Horn in the X-Wing books because he could seemingly do no wrong, with the high point of wankery being the taking of Coruscant, where he took out a bunch of enemies with a z-95 Headhunter before apparently being killed. But instead of dying, it was all part of a secret plot by Isard to capture him! Why capture him when they could have easily killed him i'm not sure, because Isard already had an agent within Rogue Squadron. But she sets up an elaborate scheme to get him and then Horn breaks free from her prison and brainwashing eventually anyways. Then he miraculously discovers his Jedi heritage. Corran Horn is a fanfic character. He later goes on to participate in the liberation of Thyferra, and the ridiculous X-Wing wank contained therin.

Addendum:

Although I think it's hilarious how he had sex with a Selonian.

Also, he doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis.