higher lvl wiz question, D7D, pathfinder etc

[dragon]

Ok paying a wiz in pathfinder only lvl 11 but I've been noticing more and more as we level that my spells are having less effect. An example of this is a fight we were in I used all of my 6th and 5th level spells in one battle and they creatures always saved versus my spell dc or I couldn't over come their spell resistance. So for the entire battle i was worthless. Now I do have feats that make my spell dc higher but thats only a couple of points and for a school.

What are some tips that I can use to get more out of my spells?

[Jub]

First off what schools are you focused on? Secondly, what are your options for swapping in new spells so that you can include a few that bypass SR? Also, what sort of encounter was giving you trouble?

[White Haven]

Also, equipment options. Of particular utility would be a nice, standard Pathfinder item to give yourself +6 intelligence, which should be workable at or around your level. Other stats are nice as well, but boosting your save DCs by 3 across the board is just huge.

If spell resistance or especially immunity continues to be a major problem, look into spell penetration feats (to increase your CL vs spell resistance) or certain Conjuration-school spells that simply don't give a fuck about SR or magic immunity, because that bath of acid will fuck your ass right up whether or not it's magical anymore.

15th level is when Pathfinder wizards get to take the gloves alllll the way off. Take a look at fun toys like Spell Perfection or Parry Spell, both of which lend themselves to very different but utterly vicious Wizard builds, especially if you build towards them with other feat choices. As you're still 11 now, you have a little bit to start angling towards the kind of apocalyptic insanity that you get access to at 15.

In general, however, a lot comes down to choice of tactics. Barring a few very specialized builds, you're never going to be a single-target damage powerhouse compared to what some of the melee and archery-based classes can put out. You don't need to be, although having some single-target tricks under your belt is essential for those times when one motherfucker just has to die. Your true purpose in a group is to clear the way, whether that's by crowd-control spells, walls to segregate the battlefield, or simply raw, wide-area devastation to blast an entire area clean. That Fighter in your party can't deal with those two-dozen close-packed bone horrors the necromancer behind them just summoned, not quickly at any rate. You can. And boy is that necromancer going to have a bad day when there's suddenly not a nice, protective wall of magically-animated corpses between him and Grabthar's hammer.

Lastly, and I emphasize this, capital letters, proper punctuation, and checking your post to see that you typed D7D instead of D&D are all essential to playing wizards. Really. For the love of Kelemvor.

[dragon]

First off what schools are you focused on? Secondly, what are your options for swapping in new spells so that you can include a few that bypass SR? Also, what sort of encounter was giving you trouble?

For school I'm focused on Evocation and the GM is fairly lax on us swapping out spells if we are in town. As for the encounter it was demons, then later we ran into CR 11 young green dragon that also gave me issues.

Lastly, and I emphasize this, capital letters, proper punctuation, and checking your post to see that you typed D7D instead of D&D are all essential to playing wizards. Really. For the love of Kelemvor.

Sorry between having three fingers splinted and way to much energy drinks can't type so well.

[dragon]

Also I went through the magic items and haven't found anything that gives bonuses to int, am I over looking them?

[dragon]

Also I went through the magic items and haven't found anything that gives bonuses to int, am I over looking them?

never mind found it

[Jub]

Is it possible for us to get a copy of your character sheet to look at? It'll help us make more focused comments on your build and recommend things tailored to your character rather than Joe Everywizard.

[dragon]

Is it possible for us to get a copy of your character sheet to look at? It'll help us make more focused comments on your build and recommend things tailored to your character rather than Joe Everywizard.

Never mind we all died. I think the GM needs a refresher course in lvl appropriate encounters. I mean there's 4 of us that are lvl 11, 2 that are 12 and 1 that is 13. Guess what he threw us up against a freaking CR19 Marlith that had 2 CR14 minions.

[Grumman]

In that case it sounds like the problem is the DM treating the game as a contest between you and him (which the DM will naturally win, because he can cheat).

In general, though, Evocation is regarded as one of the weaker schools. It's not the worst, but it's more focused on doing hit point damage than other schools. Magic is better at doing the kind of things that a bow and arrow cannot, like summoning minions, buffs and debuffs, and save-or-suck effects that bypass HP totals.

[Imperial Overlord]

In that case it sounds like the problem is the DM treating the game as a contest between you and him (which the DM will naturally win, because he can cheat).

In general, though, Evocation is regarded as one of the weaker schools. It's not the worst, but it's more focused on doing hit point damage than other schools. Magic is better at doing the kind of things that a bow and arrow cannot, like summoning minions, buffs and debuffs, and save-or-suck effects that bypass HP totals.

Evocation's "weakness" depends on how the party plays. If the party is built for high alpha damage the AoE damage an Evoker can put out synergizes well with the high damage output from the rest of the party to make very dead monsters very quickly. On the other hand if the rest of the party isn't built for doing tremendous amount of damage out of the gate then minions, save or suck, and buff and debuffs are generally a better way to go.

[White Haven]

It really very much depends on the campaign and the GM, as well. If there are legions to be killed, a legion-killing AoE Evoker has something to do, and something that many other classes are very poor at handling. If everything is small numbers of high-value targets, less so. In my most recent Pathfinder campaign the phrase 'the platoon on the left' was at times a valid targeting description, so, well, yeah. Legion-killing.

And then the GM throws an entire phalanx of iron golems at you. But that's another story...

[SAMAS]

Actually, if the rest of your party is built for high damage, your best spell would actually be Haste. The bonus to hit helps, and the extra attacks pile up fast.

Stone Call(Core), Pellet Blast, Arcane Cannon (Ultimate Combat), and Stone Discus (Advanced Class Guide) are all damaging spells that ignore SR, though some are more damaging than others(and only Pellet Blast allows a save). Two of them can also shut down Damage Reduction at higher levels(Stone Discus) or for an additional cost (Pellet Blast). Frostbite is a surprisingly nasty spell, because while it only does nonlethal damage, it straight-up Fatigues the target with no saving throw allowed.

Oh, and Black Tentacles. When all else fails, go Hentai on their asses.

Spell Focus is a good feat, though you might have to take it two or three times to cover your main schools. Spell Penetration(+2 vs. SR) is a must, and you might want to take the Piercing Spell Metamagic feat(target has -5 SR) if your DM throws a lot of high-SR enemies at you. Persistent(reroll saving throw), Intensified(per-level damage cap goes up by five levels), and Heightened(bring spell CL up) Spell metamagics are also good to keep your lower-level spells relevant.

[SAMAS]

Also, if you wanna specialize in straight-up arcane damage, consider the other classes as well.

Sorcerer suffers some in spell progression and selection, but has the bonus of being able to whip out their spells and metamagic whenever, and their bloodline powers can also help focus their abilities or deal damage without using spells. Many of them can also access certain Divine Spells. Good Bloodline choices are Arcane(at mid-to-high levels, can metamagic as a standard action), Draconic(+1 per die damage for their chosen element, is pretty much a mini Dragon Disciple, and stacks really well with said Prestige Class) Elemental(can change any energy damage to their chosen element), and Orc(does the same damage bonus as Draconic, but with all damaging spells).

Alchemist is also real good for just blowing stuff up. Or you could be The Incredible Hulk and mix it up in close combat.

Magus is a lot of fun if you wanna play Magic Knight. Their Spell Recall is also good for versatility: prepare a spell just once, then call it back up if the situation calls for it again.

[Grumman]

It really very much depends on the campaign and the GM, as well. If there are legions to be killed, a legion-killing AoE Evoker has something to do, and something that many other classes are very poor at handling.

Perhaps, but there are still some hilarious ways to do it, at least in 3.5. Things like Thri-Kreen gunslingers triple-wielding light crossbows and hosing down entire regiments with piercing arrows, Necromancers with contagious exploding tumors or desert Druids who just say "Fuck it," summon a tornado-strength sandstorm half a kilometer across and then stroll in to murder anything that doesn't get ground to dust.

[White Haven]

Which is why I'm so glad we're discussing Pathfinder and not 3.x.

[Imperial Overlord]

Actually, if the rest of your party is built for high damage, your best spell would actually be Haste. The bonus to hit helps, and the extra attacks pile up fast.

No it isn't, because you're just giving one other party member an extra attack each round instead of inflicting massive damage (preferably killing/crippling the enemy spellcasters before they cast or alternatively hurting them badly enough that someone else can finish them) right now. Haste is worth more the more the rounds you have and if you're all built for high alpha a fight that lasts long enough to get good use out of haste has gone terribly wrong. Our cleric was shit so our strategy was to kill the enemy before they were abile to inflict serious amount of damage, perferably before they were able to get to act on the first round of combat. Toward the end of the game we were joined by a new player who rolled a high level cleric built around buffing himself into an unstoppable killing machine. He had to change tactics because by the time he finished stacking buffs, the fight was over.

[SAMAS]

Haste works on up to one creature per level. At high levels, you can get the entire party animal companions/mounts, and probably a few cohorts, NPC allies, or summons too.

[Imperial Overlord]

Haste works on up to one creature per level. At high levels, you can get the entire party animal companions/mounts, and probably a few cohorts, NPC allies, or summons too.

The number of people it works on depends on the version of the spell you're using and its utility as a spellcasting choice drops when most of the party is packing boots of speed (which in my party was everyone by 10th level). And even the most generous version is still not as useful as crippling/killing the enemy spellcasters with save or suck or accumulated damage before they get their turn to cast.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It really very much depends on the campaign and the GM, as well. If there are legions to be killed, a legion-killing AoE Evoker has something to do, and something that many other classes are very poor at handling. If everything is small numbers of high-value targets, less so. In my most recent Pathfinder campaign the phrase 'the platoon on the left' was at times a valid targeting description, so, well, yeah. Legion-killing.

And then the GM throws an entire phalanx of iron golems at you. But that's another story...

If I recall, that is what walls of force and move earth are for.

The fun part about wizards is their build can be tailored daily to an extent. One of the best bits of advice I can give is to have a wide spell selection, *try* to have some foresight. It is not always possible (that phalanx of iron golems came out of nowhere when I had my general combat spell list prepared. Had we chosen the time and place of that engagement, both White Haven and myself would have prepared different spells), but that is one thing you can do. If you know you might be going after iron golems, prep spells that dont give a fuck about spell immunity. For other things, go with spells that dont have saves or that utilize saves for which your enemies are weak.

Pick up spell penetration feats. Pick up higher levels of spell focus. Jack your INT through the ceiling. Also, always keep a few Last Ditch spells. If nothing is working, self-modification is always an option. Keep a heavily enchanted quarterstaff (or something) on your person and be all "This is not even my final form!", or start summoning things.

[SAMAS]

Haste works on up to one creature per level. At high levels, you can get the entire party animal companions/mounts, and probably a few cohorts, NPC allies, or summons too.

The number of people it works on depends on the version of the spell you're using

Since we've mostly been talking Pathfinder, I'm talking that version.

and its utility as a spellcasting choice drops when most of the party is packing boots of speed (which in my party was everyone by 10th level).

That's an if, not a when. My group's parties, for example, tend to let the mages haste them while saving their money for other gear.

And even the most generous version is still not as useful as crippling/killing the enemy spellcasters with save or suck or accumulated damage before they get their turn to cast.

Haste is a good spell because it increases the overall combat prowess of the entire party. It's total damage potential is therefore one attack's worth of the entire party's damage output per round. And that's not counting the hit, movement, and reflex bonuses. To get close to that his- or herself, a spellcaster usually has to invest in Metamagic and use high-level spells. Haste is a level Two spell, and a persistent one at that.

And my preferred anti-caster spell is "Angry Barbarian/Fighter/Magus/Monk/Etc... to the Face", a.k.a.: Telekinetic Charge.

[Imperial Overlord]

Haste is a good spell because it increases the overall combat prowess of the entire party. It's total damage potential is therefore one attack's worth of the entire party's damage output per round. And that's not counting the hit, movement, and reflex bonuses. To get close to that his- or herself, a spellcaster usually has to invest in Metamagic and use high-level spells. Haste is a level Two spell, and a persistent one at that.

Oh haste is good and it's level 3, not level 2. The hit and reflex bonuses are only +1, the real good stuff is the mutliple targets, speed, and potential extra attack. It does require the party to be close together (which frequently occurs), not already hasting, and is much better if you have a large party than a small one (ours was small). Compared to my mage's ability to dish out damage and save or suck, it was usually a suboptimal choice.

And my preferred anti-caster spell is "Angry Barbarian/Fighter/Magus/Monk/Etc... to the Face", a.k.a.: Telekinetic Charge.

It's a good one and variations have worked for us, but it's often not enough without help. Thus damage and save or die stacked on top riddling them with arrows and/or duel wielding weapon spam to the face. Haste is good, but its situational. Wall of Force is also good, but not so useful if the enemy can teleport around and bypass it. Spells should be selected based on the problems you believe you'll be facing (and you won't always be right with your guessing) and with what the rest of the party can do or not do. And sometimes that's hasting and sometimes thats turning the dragon to glass before it energy drains the whole damn party.

[White Haven]

God, Vitrification is such a fun reskin of Flesh to Stone. You wouldn't think that simple edit would make such a huge grin appear on my face, but it really, really does.

[dragon]

In that case it sounds like the problem is the DM treating the game as a contest between you and him (which the DM will naturally win, because he can cheat).

In general, though, Evocation is regarded as one of the weaker schools. It's not the worst, but it's more focused on doing hit point damage than other schools. Magic is better at doing the kind of things that a bow and arrow cannot, like summoning minions, buffs and debuffs, and save-or-suck effects that bypass HP totals.

Ok he only sort of killed us. We showed up to make our new characters and he said not to. Turns out the room we were fighting in was acting a formof soul trap. So we started the session off as prisioners in a hell dimension as our souls couldn't travel to the correct areas. Then it got weird after torturing our souls for a while trying to figure out what we were up to, we were in Rappan Athuk a published dungeon trying to stop Orcus, they lead us from the torture room into the throne room. There playing cards, using souls as currency, sat Asmodeous, Belial, graz'zt and the CR 39 Lich king.

They wanted Orcus stopped as well but couldn't directly interfere so they wanted us to do their dirtywork, well the LG half celestial paladin was set against it. So Asmodeous summons a scroll rights on it and tosses it through a portal. A couple of minutes later a portal opens out steps a Solar. A solar that happens to serve the Paladin god and is the pally ancestor. The solar tells him that his god has decided to loan him to Asmodeous for this task.

they send a couple of NPCS along to make sure we don't stray from the task. NPC 1 Asmodeoues daughter, NPC 2 the lich king daughter and NPC 3 was a Ruin knight princess that happens to be carrying graz'zt child. Then they send us back to the dungeon.

Man our GM is weird.

[Coaan]

That should also be one fallen paladin, but that's beside the point.

As I was going to say before everyone else chimed in ; you should not assume that the party can, or will win every encounter. You can however take steps to ensure that you always have an out, which you should do as a wizard.

Teleport is a spell you will have access to as a level 11 wizard.

[Imperial Overlord]

God, Vitrification is such a fun reskin of Flesh to Stone. You wouldn't think that simple edit would make such a huge grin appear on my face, but it really, really does.

*fist bump* I know. I think it is because stone is tough and ugly, glass is fragile and beautiful. A glass beholder is a thing of beauty, an instant stolen from time, and then it is gone as it shatters to a thousand pieces when it hits the floor.