Homebrew system thread II, section 3

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Dale has a very good question there, and there is an interesting situation at the root of it; of the fourteen gods, some are more clearly gods of the people, that everyone has some cause to ask something of at some point, and some are gods of the few, of specialists and elites that few need to pray to, or want the attention of.

Valdemiron is clearly one of the elitist gods, a patron of few rather than a help to many, and that actually seems to be a convenient faulty line. You know from the temple that there were others supporting their enchantment- Sulidain and Efrodrion- god of traders, merchants, conmen and drivers of sharp practise, god of tricks and lies- with a fantastically versatile set of abilities, please note- are both elitists, and they were in there too.

Efdrodrion is the real surprise there. Sulidain likes short memories and cloudy pasts, there's a long standing grudge- surprising that they would go quite that far, though. The trickster is, as usual, unpredictable, but malice on this scale is rare. Then again so are the events that brought you all to this pass.


Lisanna shakes her head. 'that only matters if she does the work involved in the position. It's what she wants, it's what she's been playing for, and do you really want to let the person involved in that plan she's come up with so far get what she's playing for? If she was trustworthy, if she wasn't likely to take that and run away with the authority it gives her, she wouldn't have been here in the first place- there's too much of the adventurer in her.'

[Simon_Jester]

Larric shakes his head. "It's a grand idea, if only we could work out a way to make things hard for d'Avariel if she didn't do her job right. I don't know if we can stop her in open court, right now, as things stand..." he nods his head at the Ikhrani "we've one man's word, and our word that he said it, so far. I... hm. What of the priests of Efrodion and Sulidain? Would they back d'Avariel, or tell on her?"

[Kaelan]

"Always that floating eating creature. One more victim maybe...."

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Lisanna looks up at that. 'Floating eating creature? We also have an impossible murder to solve, remember- one of the Baron's mistresses, that set everyone at court on edge, everybody suspecting, everybody fearing and hating everyone else. Perhaps I'm being unfair; I don't like her, I'd like to blame her but- did she not just demonstrate exactly the combination of talents required to commit that murder?'

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

...I wish I'd thought of that. In my defense it happened a year ago in real time.

IC:

Larric's jaw drops for a moment, then closes. "Hell. You're right, I feel like a fool for not thinking of it. Stabbing people in the back from in front of them from across the room? Aye, that she did... It'd almost have to leave a magical trace, and she might be good at hiding it but no one's perfect. I don't know if I could work with that, but can you? I'd be glad to help." He looks a bit uncertain at that last bit. "Then again... the last time I tried to get a read on what I know, now, was d'Avariel's magic, I got nothing, not a peep."

He frowns, a very slight growl or grumble in his throat for a moment.

OOC MK II:

Random question, what does "Resist Survival" do? I'd been afraid to buy any points in it, for fear that the skill causes you to do exactly what it says on the label.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Random question first; it's a typographical error. The various 'Resist' skills- poison, injury, persuasion, magic- are defensive skills, used to oppose poison, injury, etc as appropriate. 'Survival'- not drowning while trying to cross a river, knowing which berries won't poison you, so forth- pretty much what is meant today by survival- is separate, and embarrassingly badly punctuated.


'It would be too easy to blame her, you may be right, and there will have been so many contradictory influences since then there's no possibility of a retest. Although- can you even sense the divine magic it is likely she would have used? A guildsman could, but-'

[Simon_Jester]

"No, most likely not." The alchemist sighs. "D'Avariel was the woman in gray when Dame Tamarin was attacked, most likely. I went to the scene of the crime, and tried to work out what happened. That was earlier today, before we knew what we know now. No luck. So if it's her... I don't know that I'd be able to help much to speak of."

He shakes his head at his own ignorance; why can't he have an alchemy problem to solve instead of a magic problem for a change!?

"Hm... we need to figure out which of the Valdemironi are still alive and in shape to give word, and protect them. Before the Krylanyans kill any more of them. We should send to the other two temples tied up in this, they may know something about the plot-behind-the-plot too, and they're not up to their necks in it like the chief-god's men, so they may be more likely to talk to cover themselves. And, well, warn the baron, but I already said that."

[Kaelan]

"Blame?" Dirt looks a bit puzzled by the slant the conversation has taken. "I was thinking of making her look eaten....."

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

'Right- who gets to go and do that? Most of those taken are in the castle's cellars, there may be a couple of wounded who managed to limp away before the collapse, let us think. The archpriest? Killed on the field. The court chaplain? Did anyone see or hear tell of him?' Lisanna begins to go down the list. There are generally blank looks at that. 'Patriarch Herault? He should have been in the thick of it. But..

He wouldn't have been in the midst of the ritual. Would have known, if anyone did, that it had all gone horribly wrong. He disappeared fairly early on in the day, should have been the inside man in the castle, wasn't- I think it is distinctly possible that he is in fact on the run, somewhere. Could be our best lead.'

The rest of them are listed and mostly accounted for- a few junior acolytes known to have fled, but only one of sufficient seniority- a sacristan, basically someone who looks after the shiny things, and probably taken alive for that reason- known to have been carried off basically upright. Probably by the yeomanry.

'So; word to the Baron, look through the cellars- I can do that. Who's to chase Herault and Sacristan Bardulph?'

[Simon_Jester]

The alchemist frowns, scratching his chin and feeling the hint of stubble.

"Herault- wasn't he down in the caverns with you, freshly back? Aye..." Larric looks mainly at Dale. "It'd be worth trying to track him down, Bardulph the same- is Bardulph in the dungeons or is he vanished we know not where? Not sure I caught that. If they've decided to run for it, maybe we three could go chasing one, or both..."

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

'Herault has probably run for it, probably cross country to Auvaine city, but he's an old man who doesn't move very quickly, and is very well aware of his own limitations. He'll be moving slowly, hiding, using what he is good at. Decide for yourselves of course, but I think he'll be a few miles, five or six, out, not on the straight road, but probably no more than that.

Bardulph may have been kidnapped by the yeomanry; there's an ambush to lay there- they'll probably be back to the temple, to loot it, and most likely tomorrow night. Does that make sense to everyone?'

[Simon_Jester]

"Either way, I can be a lazy man sometimes; if I think I know where someone's going, I'll usually want to get into their path and let them come to me." Again the alchemist glances at Dale and Dirt, trying to gauge their reactions.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Kaelan, Fiji, your ball. Response is needed. Come on, wake up.

[Fiji_Fury]

Dale revives from his brooding silence.

"Herault is most likely the more important figure, and one whom would be more likely to cooperate. He wasn't necessarily part of the plot if he was beneath the caverns while it was being prepared. There's a further consideration of stability beyond the immediate schemes. Herault may be able to assist on that front. But we are exhausted. I don't know that tracking him is likely to succeed in our current state."

"An ambush at the temple on the other hand - it would give us time to rest and recuperate at least a little, but presents a more difficult confrontation; yeomen would be likely to die and Bardulph may not even be among them."

"Hm... Herault. We should find Herault. Leave Bardulph and the yeomen for D'avriel to tangle with. She can think she's sweeping up the pieces and expend her own time and strength while we recover the more important figure. Herault may have a better idea of what D'avriel is aiming for out of this anyway."

[Simon_Jester]

IC:

Larric groans; it has been a brutally full day, with a parachute drop, three pitched battles, several acts of magic both semi-major and minor, and more interlocking betrayals than he can readily count.

"If we've a way of finding him fast we should use it; if we don't, any chance of catching a few hours' sleep first?"

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I think you're miscounting; there has been a day and a night you're not taking into consideration, at least- not that that's much of a help. It's still been a ridiculously busy couple of days.

'Divination is always a possibility, let me see.' She cobbles together a brief rite that seems to work quite well, hands Larric a small stick. 'This should point in his general direction. Ish. Until it wears off, or he realises you're on his trail. If I guess correctly, he's on the road north around the lake, heading for Auvaine. Take a boat and you should be able to make up distance, perhaps get ahead of him.'

[Simon_Jester]

IC:

I think you're miscounting; there has been a day and a night you're not taking into consideration, at least- not that that's much of a help. It's still been a ridiculously busy couple of days.

Hm. I thought today began with us flying into town in pursuit of de Berrey, and we haven't had a sleep since then. My mistake.

'Divination is always a possibility, let me see.' She cobbles together a brief rite that seems to work quite well, hands Larric a small stick. 'This should point in his general direction. Ish. Until it wears off, or he realises you're on his trail. If I guess correctly, he's on the road north around the lake, heading for Auvaine. Take a boat and you should be able to make up distance, perhaps get ahead of him.'

"Thanks. And double thanks, for reminding me I've got a lot of studying to do."

The alchemist turns to one of the Ikhrani priests. "I guess we'll go to the boatyard and the docks. Do you know if Maker Wright will be there?"

OOC:

The lake is where we'd find suitable boats, and we're not planning to go clear downriver to Auvaine, although that's clearly an option and would at least save us some aching legs...

[Kaelan]

"No, lets walk. Boats bad, sink."

Dirt looks a bit cagey

"Walk fast and we catch Her'lt, Only take boat if really need to"

OC - looks like we have a plan, Chase after one and then onto the next problem. At times does anybody else think that our life is one giant game of 'whack-a-mole' (and I'm not sure who's doing the whacking ).

On a separate note, I'm out of the loop unit Sunday. if you manage to herd Dirt onto a boat, He will sit very still in the centre (sulk and looking generally miserable). If anybody rocks the boat.....
Spoiler

Dirt has a phobia of water deeper than his waist

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Simon, you want an alchemy problem? There are two of them right there; first of all some kind of stimulant to keep the rest of the party going, and the exact opposite for Dirt so you can get him in the boat...

four if you count the more outlying possibilities of something along the lines of an oil of levitation, again so you can get Dirt - (7-800lb bodyweight, plus another 100-200lb of kit?) in the boat, and off the top of my head something like a skin- absorptive truth serum to spread on d'Avariel's chair, if she ever sits down.

Kaelan, the kingdom nearly got torn apart. Of course life is one long succession of troubles, considering how many people there are out there who are willing to treat everyone else like a mole. It does help if you have a bigger hammer.


'He'll be there.' the acolyte answers Larric.


Do I take it that you are all therefore heading to the boatyard, where you will find the Ikhrani high priest having a very bad day, and actually in the middle of trying to design an underground castle that at least should be more difficult to demolish this time?

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

Simon, you want an alchemy problem? There are two of them right there; first of all some kind of stimulant to keep the rest of the party going, and the exact opposite for Dirt so you can get him in the boat...

Hm. I'd always thought of the compounding of actual medicines to be outside the remit of the Alchemy skill- although I imagine that with some knowledge of Apothecary one could stretch to it.

Larric's actual profitable work before the Twentieth came through Peredburh might well have involved doing some of the tricky compounding and chemical work for an apothecary, come to think of it... it might well be justified for him to have some points in that, what do you think?

four if you count the more outlying possibilities of something along the lines of an oil of levitation, again so you can get Dirt - (7-800lb bodyweight, plus another 100-200lb of kit?) in the boat, and off the top of my head something like a skin- absorptive truth serum to spread on d'Avariel's chair, if she ever sits down.

Now that is a delicious idea.

Just how exotic an alchemy would you need for that? I've never gotten a good sense of the limits of the possible, of roughly how hard it is to produce what sort of thing. It's like, I know that Strength 10 is 'average healthy person,' Strength 12 is 'pretty strong,' and Strength 15 is 'truly exceptional,' in the one or two percent of the population sense- if that.

But I don't know what kind of chemical production would be 'routine' for someone with Alchemy 10, or Alchemy 12, or Alchemy 15. Did you ever write anything like that down? I'm reminded of 3rd Edition D&D, which for each skill would have a table with sample feats of fixed difficulty: "To make this chemical, you need an 18 on the die roll."

IC:

'He'll be there.' the acolyte answers Larric.

Do I take it that you are all therefore heading to the boatyard, where you will find the Ikhrani high priest having a very bad day...

Indeed. Larric in particular will greet him warmly- he's tired but not rude, especially not to a priest of the god with whom he is most aligned. He'll say "The fighting at the castle's died down, a lot of the thanks to the church*- and we're trying to get to the bottom of all this, Herault ran off, and we're trying to dowse for him with Lisanna's help. If we can get across the lake we can head him off, but we'd need a boat that can carry our giant friend here." He nods at Dirt.

*Tone will make it obvious he means 'yours.'

IC MK II:

and actually in the middle of trying to design an underground castle that at least should be more difficult to demolish this time?

After that's been spoken to, and assuming there are visible blueprints of the underground castle design... [Larric rolls Common Sense check]

The alchemist looks at the blueprints, then recoils, then turns slowly to Maker Wright.

"Ah... begging your pardon, but four words..." he says, pointing at the document before him. "Magic, earthquake, buried, alive." Larric shudders; the image in his head at the idea of the underground castle is ghastly.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

There is some crossover, the more complicated medicines- certainly anything likely to be able to deal with a magically induced illness or curse- are definitely going to require Alchemy. Larric's pre- crisis trade almost certainly did, and apothecary and alchemy skills can and in the right circumstances do give each other bonuses.


Tables with sample feats of fixed difficulty are one thing I've actually shied away from, partly for the paperwork involved but the excuse I usually use is that I don't want to trammel the creativity of the players with a list of sample feats that usually seems to morph into a narrow prescription.

What you can do is state the effect, roll against your skill- plus or minus modifiers for plausibility, appropriateness of ingredients, etc- and the amount you beat your skill by is the potency of the resulting brew, that then becomes the target the recipient has to roll against to resist, or which say augments their 'resist disease', or- as appropriate to the effect. Modifiers should generally be positive, so that an average success produces an average result, and investing more time and energy as a player- actually knowing something about the mediaeval herbarium for instance, or a really good line of blather- should bring a benefit.

I may have tried to be too unrestrictive here, and accidentally left out any clear idea of where to go; but please do experiment.


'There's a timber barge that still hasn't been converted to use as a houseboat, we will need it back though. I hope you can manage to sort this out, although it isn't the only crisis we're facing. We might need this, before long.' meaning the blueprints. 'It depends whose earthquake, really, what sort of scale of threat- The Authrani, show me something that would survive. Our neighbours, on the other hand, it may be feasible to defend against. I very much doubt that a priestess of the goddess of war has come to spread harmony and tranquility.'

[Fiji_Fury]

"We share that worry," replies Dale to Maker Wright. "Our efforts are aimed at uncovering details of her plot and seeing what can be put back together out of this mess."

"Maker... the Valdemironi... they intentionally lured my order into a trap and dispersed us after blocking our connection with D'nor and manipulating our memories. I pray that Herault was not part of that abomination and that he may be able to redeem his order and their disciples here. Failing that... I worry about what the temple of the chief of gods in Auvaine may do when they learn of the debacle here. If you have any ability to send word of your own to the temple of Ikrahn in Auvaine, it might be wise. Much the same with the temple of D'nor... there is a fell wind at work in our land and I'm worried it will stir dark spirits, if indeed it is not a consequence of an unholy scheme. This may be paranoia, but without any wardens but myself nearby, Qulan is vulnerable."

Dale also shares how the yeoman he followed from the fight left in the general direction of Auvaine. "We may tie that loose end up by finding Herault, or not. Do you know much of the man? Can he be reasoned with, or must the three of us rely upon overwhelming lethal force?"

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

Tables with sample feats of fixed difficulty are one thing I've actually shied away from, partly for the paperwork involved but the excuse I usually use is that I don't want to trammel the creativity of the players with a list of sample feats that usually seems to morph into a narrow prescription.

That's a very healthy attitude; in my case my problem is that I simply find myself hesitating to try to have my character concoct alchemical substances like incendiaries, anesthetics, or other such exotica, when I really don't know what can and cannot be done. Because he's confined by the state of the art (more or less), and I don't know what that is, especially since it's clear that there are chemical options in this setting that were outside the bounds of the historical-medieval, like anesthetic gasses in a glass boomerang. Or incendiary crossbow arrows that will burn without oxygen.

My impression is that Larric's about as good an alchemist as, oh, the typical medium-strongish knight is as a warrior... so he should be able to do some pretty impressive things by the standards of actual medieval alchemy, even without using magic.

On the other hand, I know Larric probably can't make a Plexiglas windscreen for Njal's avantura. At least, not without Substance magic and the pre-existing knowledge that such a substance can exist.

Having a sense of what some difficulty levels for various substances look like would help me overcome my mental block of uncertainty. Taking, say, incendiaries- consider the options of distilled naphtha (low-end historical), Greek fire (high-end historical, bordering on fantastic by the standards of any other incendiary known at the time), and, oh... wildfire from the works of G. R. R. Martin, (high-end fantastic, particularly because of how long it keeps burning).

If I have Larric work hard for a week producing some sort of nasty flammable compound by mundane means, which of those is the appropriate model? I'd guess "somewhere between Greek fire and just plain naphtha." But I don't know, which makes it hard for me to try and come up with more exotic possibilities (like that lovely idea of the skin-absorbing truth drug to take shameless advantage of d'Avariel's lack of pants. I hope someone actually tried something like that at some point in your games).

And, hm.

The other problem is the lack of facilities and in-game time to do such things, since laboratory chemistry usually can't be done in a timescale less than hours. If Larric gets a few free days to establish semipermanent quarters in Qulan town, he will most likely try to actually get some of his preserved equipment set up in them. But that's a minor issue; the real thing that causes me to be 'writer's blocked' is that I feel uncertain about what I can realistically expect a man like Larric to accomplish under the circumstances.

I may have tried to be too unrestrictive here, and accidentally left out any clear idea of where to go; but please do experiment.

My experimental creativity really really needs at least a few hints. I want to use it, but... I have a

IC:

'There's a timber barge that still hasn't been converted to use as a houseboat, we will need it back though.

"Doubt it'll come to harm. Where's the crew?"

Bertram seems to have gone his own way, but they should still be able to round up a crew by throwing money at them. And Larric actually has some money, now... so does Dale. Gods only know what Dirt's been collecting since he has only a dubious grasp of the meaning of currency.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Right, a rough guide to the shape of possibility;

because of the analytic possibilities of magic, the state of the art is fairly far advanced, somewhere around early enlightenment- the wheels of logic are just starting to move, and people are starting to spot patterns.

There are three major modifying factors, lab equipment or it's absence being one of them, good for somewhere between 'forget it' and +3 or 4 for a full set of well made apparatus. Materials, again from 'forget it' to +4, or better. Just how ambitious the objective is, for instance a 'voodoo poison' that would be harmless to everyone else but would cause one pre- chosen victim to appear to spontaneously combust, would be easily -8 to 10.

to use the pryomaniac example, to come up with something of utility like a charcloth which would infallibly catch and burn steadily and brightly (for campfires and the like), materials extra but probably quite easy, +4 or 5, level of success would mainly be for how much of the batch is usable, looking at square feet of the stuff maybe.

Naptha, turning rock (or hell, vegetable) oil into something that would be a usable incendiary, probably level for the production of a pint or so in three to four hours work, time dependent on equipment, more quantity, larger production run, slightly more difficult.

Playing with how something burns, so that it gives off light without, or with little heat, or heat without light, would be maybe level to -3 depending on how far you push the balance.

Greek fire, burning in circumstances that ought to extinguish fire, would probably be -2 to 4, assuming the idea that it may have been a bleve are not correct. (The siphon uses the fumes boiling off the liquid- uses a vapour explosion to hurl the boiling fluid at the enemy. Fun.)

Wildfire would be apart from anything else ripping off someone else's work; there are lots of things that are potentially at least that nasty (at the outer limit, dioxygen difluoride, which will explode on contact with and set fire to practically anything including sand, rock, water and chemists) but the hard part is not making them, but doing so safely. There are several medieval alchemists who are reported to have been torn to pieces by the demons they accidentally conjured, when what they had probably actually done was invent nitroglycerine.

The Black Towers did a lot of alchemy, most of it at the radical edge in support of magic, but as far as they were concerned minions counted as lab equipment.


Fiji, Wright's reply is 'We have been in contact with our god's temple in Auvaine; they are in more parlous state than we are, with more refugees and lost souls to look after and less to do it with- they've been asking us for building materials and such help as we can spare. Things there are ugly, but getting slightly more organised.

The Valdemironi have been a large part of that, actually; the count's being dead gave them a power vacuum to step into, and they haven't been nearly as vicious in Auvaine city as they have here- but only, I think, largely because they haven't had to. Only the difference between a hungry beast and a well fed one. Well, perhaps the fact that being nominally in charge they actually have to do something useful now has helped. But I really wouldn't bet on their essential goodness.

Or Herault's for that matter. Most of their junior acolytes are slightly rabid, you've probably noticed, but he was close enough to actual power to have much more feel for compromising and temporising, for the actual tricks and expedients of keeping it once you have it; I don't think he's a better person, just a better tactician, with more feel for the game and more sense than to play a losing hand.

Herault can probably be reasoned with, if you watch him like a viper; the yeomanry...they're angry. Feel as if the nobles and the priests, most of us, let them down, led them into harm's way and left them to it. Anyone who puts themselves forward into a mess like this is probably among their more radical element.'

and to Larric, 'Crew'll be on shore and hopefully not too drunk by now, I'll send a lad to find them.' Ten minutes later they are found, and off across thelake of Qulan, as the sky starts to fade from black to grey.

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

Right, a rough guide to the shape of possibility; because of the analytic possibilities of magic, the state of the art is fairly far advanced, somewhere around early enlightenment- the wheels of logic are just starting to move, and people are starting to spot patterns.

[Larric bounces up and down, going "ooh ooh!" as he is 'people.' ]

Wildfire would be apart from anything else ripping off someone else's work; there are lots of things that are potentially at least that nasty...

The closest real life analogy would be napalm, which is (like wildfire) sticky burning gunk that doesn't extinguish easily. And which could probably be made by a medieval IF they knew how. It isn't so much that I'm trying to rip off anyone's work as that I'm trying to think of something even worse than Greek fire, and therefore presumably harder to do.

(at the outer limit, dioxygen difluoride, which will explode on contact with and set fire to practically anything including sand, rock, water and chemists) but the hard part is not making them, but doing so safely. There are several medieval alchemists who are reported to have been torn to pieces by the demons they accidentally conjured, when what they had probably actually done was invent nitroglycerine.

With that in mind, because I'm sure it's a known hazard, Larric would tend to synthesize a fundamentally new compound via magic in microscopic (or at least milliscopic) quantities, and then try and figure out how to make it by more normal means. So if he ever did discover fluorine, he would probably try combining it with "king's air," [1] but in small enough quantities to probably survive, especially with the Smith's Gas Mask spell, Mark III or whatever, up.

He learned his lesson from trying to take apart a pound of salt to see how it worked, and simultaneously discovering "orc air" [2] and "horrible fiery death metal." [3]

[1] Officially named this by him because it is the most air-like of all airs, the most breathable and essential to life. Unofficially named this because he's Kuquanese, and with this stuff, you start breathing it, and you feel great and you think you can do anything, except then suddenly you can't and everything's on fire and RUN AWAY! The resemblance is obvious, no?
[2] Thus named because it is green and trying to kill you.
[3] Thus named because, well, what it says on the label.

---

IC:

Or Herault's for that matter. Most of their junior acolytes are slightly rabid, you've probably noticed, but he was close enough to actual power to have much more feel for compromising and temporising, for the actual tricks and expedients of keeping it once you have it; I don't think he's a better person, just a better tactician, with more feel for the game and more sense than to play a losing hand.

Herault can probably be reasoned with, if you watch him like a viper; the yeomanry...they're angry. Feel as if the nobles and the priests, most of us, let them down, led them into harm's way and left them to it. Anyone who puts themselves forward into a mess like this is probably among their more radical element.'

and to Larric, 'Crew'll be on shore and hopefully not too drunk by now, I'll send a lad to find them.' Ten minutes later they are found, and off across thelake of Qulan, as the sky starts to fade from black to grey.

Ugh. Sunup.

Larric takes the dowsing-for-archpriests needle. He makes sure it's still consistently pointing in the same direction (hasn't been outfoxed). Then he takes a sighting and marks two lines on the boat in chalk- one in the direction of a visible landmark; it's dark so the best bet might be any visible fires or the like in town. Alternatively, one of the moons.

Then he says "shake me awake in a few minutes," lies down on the rough planks (!) and immediately dozes off for one of his patented very slightly restorative five minute naps. Presumably someone does so, hopefully not by shoving him out of the boat. He takes another such sighting. Hopefully the directions are more or less consistent, or at least the angle between the landmark and Herault's estimated position is.