Dark Heresy 2nd edition Beta is out

[Gunhead]

I was looking at FFG forums and saw that they're doing a new edition of Dark Heresy. I'm semi intrigued by this, but not intrigued enough to spend 20$ on it.
This just as a small heads up for those who are playing DH, new edition is coming and the current line is finished. Most notably, FFG has flat out stated that 2nd edition won't be compatible with old material rules wise. New sector with new places to go and new things to kill. Fluff wise they are not overwriting old stuff so those 1st edition DH books are still good for background etc.

If someone here does jump on the beta bandwagon, give us a bit of a review on what kinds of changes they've made. As they are still keeping the D100 rolling mechanic, my gut reaction says the new edition will not be all that great. But considering what a clunky PoS the current DH system is, it's bound to be an improvement.

Here are the links to those who might be interested. To buy the PDF and information on the release and Linky to the Beta forum on FFG

-Gunhead

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Let the Edition Wars commence.

In seriousness, though... DH badly needed an update. Instead, we get a reboot. Not better.

It may be that the new edition is a great RPG, but I certainly won't be buying it. I have something like 90% of the 40kRPG line. Homeworlds, advanced classes, enemies, ships, vehicles, weapons, armors, rule systems and just plain massive piles of perfectly good books which are all interchangeable (albeit sometimes with the occasional compatibility tweak). And FFG expects me to buy one new book that flushes all of that down the drain in one fell swoop? For a revised version (which may or may not even be good) of that same game I can already play? Are they on crack?

What I would buy is a 2nd edition that actually gives DH the updates it needs, like better compatibility with the newer Only War-style mechanics.

[Serafina]

The new edition looks good so far.
Action points are basically a more granular version of the previous action rules.
Wounds now work significantly different, and i think that that increases survivability for characters.
Scaling seems better because degrees of success matter more.
And probably lots of other stuff that i haven't read yet.

But yes, i would have preferred a "Dark Heresy 1.5".
But then again, converting isn't too hard - lots of careers have already been converted to the Only War format, and you can run a Dark Heresy game with those rules just fine.

[bilateralrope]

There are two things I don't really like about Dark Heresy:

1: How rigid the classes are, even with alternate ranks. Sure, there are RPGs with more rigid classes, but I don't play any of them.

2: The income system, which has several different complaints:
- The different rates per class imply that everyone is somehow earning their own money between missions. Even when they are on worlds far from home.
- The income rates have no relation to how much each class can usefully spend. Just look at the guardsman having half the income of the adept, while being able to use much more expensive weaponry.
- Individual incomes don't really fit when PCs are supposedly working together. Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Only War have the equipment you can acquire determined by the resources available to the party.
Probably some more I can't think of right now.

Do my complaints still apply to the second edition ?

[Serafina]

Nope.
Classes determine how much you pay for characteristic and skill advances, and come with one unique ability (fate point to auto-succeed for several, special actions for some).
But other than those, each character can buy each talent (at the same cost even) and whatever skills they want. You can even make any character a Psyker via Elite-Advance (which are now no longer "buy outside of class thingy) and instead "gain options that only a select few have", such as being an Inquisitor or Pskyer).

Income is gone completely and replaced with an Influence-stat.

[bilateralrope]

Nope.
Classes determine how much you pay for characteristic and skill advances, and come with one unique ability (fate point to auto-succeed for several, special actions for some).
But other than those, each character can buy each talent (at the same cost even) and whatever skills they want. You can even make any character a Psyker via Elite-Advance (which are now no longer "buy outside of class thingy) and instead "gain options that only a select few have", such as being an Inquisitor or Pskyer).

Interesting.
I'm assuming that elite advances still require GM permission.

Income is gone completely and replaced with an Influence-stat.

How well does influence work for acquiring items when the party is working undercover ?

[Serafina]

Yes, they all (currently Inquisitor, Psyker and Untouchable) require GM-Permission.


As for Influence vs. Subtlety:
First, Subtlety is a number from 1 (extremely overt) to 100 (completely unnoticed) that determines how aware the local populace is of the Acolytes and their status as agents of the Inquisition, as well as their current activities. That comes with the obvious plot implications (low subtlety can ruin an investigation because the targets go to ground) as well as a bunch of situational modifiers (high subtlety makes it easier to disguise your identity, since people are less likely to recognize you. Low subtlety makes it easier to cow others with your status. etc.)
As for acquisition: If the modifier on an acquisition test is negative, you substract the tens digit from your groups subtlety. Buying some charge packs for your las pistol (with money you got from your contacts beforehand) doesn't attract attention, but requisitioning a demolitions pack from the local Munitiorum does.

Subtlety is actually the change i love the most, and the most notable thing that is genuinely new. It's also pretty easy to translate into previous rules since it's self-contained except for a handful of new talents (which can be easily added).

[bilateralrope]

Subtlety sounds really interesting.

How does the betas list of classes compare to first editions ?

[Serafina]

Well, you chose a Homeworld, a Background and a Role.

Homeworld determines characteristics modifiers (though everything is capped at 45 for starting characters), your Fate Threshold (basically, maximum amount of Fate points) and comes with one bonus - some gain talents, others a more unique bonus. Oh, and a Signature Mental Trauma - basically, you have a higher-than-average chance to acquire that one instead of others.
Choices are Feral World, Forge World, Highborn, Hive World, Shrine World and Voidborn.

Backgrounds are the organization you hail from before you started working for the Inquisition.
It determines starting skills, talents and equipment, also comes with a bonus (none of which are talents) and a signature malignancy (again, higher-than-average chance to acquire it).
Choices are Adeptus Administratum, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Ministorum, Imperial Guard and Outcast.

Roles determine the cost of characteristic and skill advances and come with one special rule.
Assassins can move enemies with melee attacks.
Chirugeons spend less AP on Medicae tests.
Desperados gain +20 if they make a second attack in a turn (dual-wielding).
Hierophants can spend a Fate point to auto-succeed on a Charm, Command or Intimidate test.
Mystics start out as Psykers (yes, that can be made redundant with elite advances, but those require GM-permission).
Sages can spend a Fate point to auto-succeed on a Lore or Remembrance test.
Seekers can spend a Fate point to auto-succed on a Investigate or Observe-test.
Warriors can make targets they hit unable to evade the next attack.
Characteristic Advances vary in cost from 50-150 (times number of advances), Skill Advances vary in cost from 100 to 200 (again times number of advances).

[Jub]

I've played in, but never majorly invested in the old edition and it was fun enough once you patched up a few rules here and there. If this is better I'll likely buy into it, if it's just a so-so upgrade I'll buy used books from people who are upgrading. Either way, I like the universe so I'll get the new edition if I find people to play it with, the same as I did with 3.5 books and - to a limited degree - 4e books.

[bilateralrope]

They renamed psyker to mystic. Odd.

As is the lack of a role that sounds like a tech-priest. Though there is the ad-mech background. Does that background give any of the signature tech-priest abilities ?

[Serafina]

Yep.
You start with Mechandrite Use, Tech-Use and gain +20 for acquisition of cybernetics. You can also start with either a Servo-Skull or an Optical Mechandrite. Plus a bunch of other stuff of course.
Sage gets cheap Intelligence and Tech-Use Advances, so those two together are pretty much your standard Techpriest.
Chirugeon and Seeker also work pretty well - buying up Tech-Use will cost 50% more, but a Chirugeon makes a very good Magos Biologis and Seekers are pretty good all-rounders IMO.

[bilateralrope]

Yep.
You start with Mechandrite Use, Tech-Use and gain +20 for acquisition of cybernetics. You can also start with either a Servo-Skull or an Optical Mechandrite. Plus a bunch of other stuff of course.
Sage gets cheap Intelligence and Tech-Use Advances, so those two together are pretty much your standard Techpriest.

Do they also have cheap toughness advances ?
Because tech-priests being harder to kill than other classes is another major aspect of that class.

What rules are in place to prevent, or at least discourage, someone making a mystic with the ad-mech background ?

[Serafina]

Chirugeons get cheap Toughness, Sages pay average costs, for Seekers its expensive.

Adeptus Mechanicus Mystic? Nothing, except it not being on the Recommended List for Adeptus Mechanicus, which is a light case of GM-permission. But keep in mind that Psychic Techpriests DO exist, though they're obviously rare.

[bilateralrope]

I've always viewed recommended class lists as just that, a recommendation. If a player wants to ignore it, then the player is free to. If the gm disagrees, he had better have something other than the recommendation to point to.

Is there a rule to encourage psykers to have the Adeptus Astra Telepathica background ?

[Serafina]

Yes, only with that background you're a sanctioned psyker. Not being sanctioned gives you 1D10+10 Corruption and of course roleplaying disadvantages.

[bilateralrope]

That sounds like a much better way to handle sanctioning.

[Zinegata]

So you can't be Imperial Guard and Sanctioned?

[bilateralrope]

So you can't be Imperial Guard and Sanctioned?

The Adeptus Astra Telepathica are the group that do the sanctioning. Which means that even a psyker in the guard has gone through them. So you can be a sanctioned psyker the Inquisition has recruited from the guard, you'll just get the same stats as any other psyker.

[Gunhead]

Did they do any improvements on the psychic powers, i.e rewrite them? Same goes for fear rating and totally borked talents like fearless. I'm not so sure about the action point system either. If it's for players only, it might work. Usually these fall apart if the GM has to keep track for non important NPCs too. The half / full action as it is in DH 1.0 was pretty crappy too, though people say it was improved in later spinoff games like only war. I'm only partially aware of those and as our group is nearing the end of our campaign there's no real point in switching.

-Gunhead

[xthetenth]

What's your problem with d100 itself? Or is it something with the way its handled in the 40k system?

[Sinewmire]

Same goes for fear rating and totally borked talents like fearless.

Your experience clearly varies of course, but my group found them fine for our campaign which was mostly undercover investigation about illicit xenos-meats and psyk reactive drugs which of course lead onto darker things.
We've seen one or two weak daemons and some powerful psykers and they drove us temporarily insane with fear. Exept our Sororitas who has insane willpower and talents, because she is too indoctrinated to be afraid.
My feeling is that Dark Heresy v1. worked well for the sort of plots you'd see in Eisenhorn. If you throw Bloodthirsters or whatever at the players before they're crazy enough *NOT* to be afraid, then yeah, mass insanity. Last time my guardsman fought a psyker he went crazy and opened up on his Inquisitor. With a hellgun. And got flashbacks. Great roleplay experiences!

We figured that the whole income thing was the character's OWN money. Pensions or monthly pay (not officially stopped yet) from the guard or whatever, to spend however they liked. Their food and basic equipment came from the Ordos, and the (GM) Inquisitor would give us the expensive stuff like vox - thieves and high grade auspexes (auspices?) if we could explain why we needed them.

I suppose we've been fortunate in our GM rather than the sourcebook, and I always did like a harder fight - a better feeling of success if you win - but I'd be the first to admit there's a hell of a lot to improve. I've lost count of the Dark Heresy sessions ended by Daemonhost Sanction Psyker TPKs, and a lot of their rules needed long long errata.

I'm interested to see what they do with the new edition, and we'll see if we adopt it for the game I'm playing in - it's been going for about 2 years now, on and off. The late games, with the exception of Deathwatch, have been better and better in my opinion, and DW is vastly improved with the "optional" FAQ - no more 10D10+9 Damage lascannons, rerolling all damage dice in your 1 in 5 critical chance, and keeping re-rolling... from a distance of about 12km, if memory serves.

[Gunhead]

What's your problem with d100 itself? Or is it something with the way its handled in the 40k system?

D100 is just a dice among dice. The problem I have with straight D100 systems has nothing to do with 40K aside from the fact that the system they use is a throwback from the 80's. It sucked back then and nothing has changed. If you want me to elaborate, I will but to anyone who has spent time playing and tinkering with RPGs the inherent problems are pretty apparent and I think there are few pretty good sources on them online.

-Gunhead

[Gunhead]

Your experience clearly varies of course, but my group found them fine for our campaign which was mostly undercover investigation about illicit xenos-meats and psyk reactive drugs which of course lead onto darker things.
We've seen one or two weak daemons and some powerful psykers and they drove us temporarily insane with fear. Exept our Sororitas who has insane willpower and talents, because she is too indoctrinated to be afraid.
My feeling is that Dark Heresy v1. worked well for the sort of plots you'd see in Eisenhorn. If you throw Bloodthirsters or whatever at the players before they're crazy enough *NOT* to be afraid, then yeah, mass insanity. Last time my guardsman fought a psyker he went crazy and opened up on his Inquisitor. With a hellgun. And got flashbacks. Great roleplay experiences!

Any good GM can work around a bad system and if yours can, it's all fine and good for your group. But I'm not talking about my experiences here, I'm looking at what the system says and how it works. If our GM wasn't good at running a game despite the system, we would have dumped DH a long time ago. That doesn't mean he hasn't cursed the thing on several occasions and as we speak he is planning a new 40K campaign. It will not be using DH or any variant system. In his words "keeping the fluff and background, dumping the rest".

-Gunhead

[xthetenth]

What's your problem with d100 itself? Or is it something with the way its handled in the 40k system?

D100 is just a dice among dice. The problem I have with straight D100 systems has nothing to do with 40K aside from the fact that the system they use is a throwback from the 80's. It sucked back then and nothing has changed. If you want me to elaborate, I will but to anyone who has spent time playing and tinkering with RPGs the inherent problems are pretty apparent and I think there are few pretty good sources on them online.

-Gunhead

I think I may have an idea, then. The biggest problem I've run into is really weird scaling at different power levels and a lot of stuff tending towards some skills being really high odds of success on opposed checks. I was actually asking for opinions because I've been tinkering with RPGs recently and wanted another opinion.