Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Terralthra wrote:It is, like many other things in the game, designed on purpose to draw the player into the player avatar. Any voice actor would inevitably sound not-like-the-player, or say something the player wouldn't say. It's the same reason that despite many surfaces which would be (or are!) reflective, the player's reflection never appears in them.
Yeah I know; I played Half-Life and it had much the same convention.

What I mean is, how do we interpret that? Do we literally assume that Gordon Freeman is invisible in mirrors and never ever speaks? Or do we just interpret it as Gordon appearing normally in mirrors, being at least capable of speech... and just not heard by me-the-player?

Doesn't Freeman coordinate troops during an uprising at some point? That implies he has some ability to communicate, even if the player doesn't hear the commands directly.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

When you bump into resistance fighters and go after a load of Striders, just about the only thing you hear is "Hey, it's Freeman! Let's follow him!".

So, either they're so enamoured that they jump to help him without any provocation, or he does bark commands which we have to imagine. You can actually tell them whether to hold back or join you.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Terralthra »

Clearly, he's such a "Science Jesus" that he merely pokes the appropriate resistance member (or security guard/scientist in HL) as if he were pushing a button and they instantly understand that they should follow him, not follow him, go to a specific spot, or regroup near him. Can't be that gameplay elements and immersion-building choices don't always translate precisely to the real world.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Metahive »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote: It's not about emo or anything; it's about how women are creatures of wild emotion, unlike those rational men, and aside from fitting that terrible stereotype, it's worse in another way. When they make a game where Peach is the protagonist, they don't build it around Peach's character at all but build it around generic woman powers that don't match her preexisting personality at all (since when has Peach been anything but soft-spoken, determined, or cheerful?), because "woman" is enough traits to flesh out a character, right?
No, I think you're doing the game wrong here. The whole "emotions as superpowers" thing isn't unique to Peach, it's affecting almost the whole cast since the plot is that Bowser's got possession of a magical doohickey that let's him control emotions. Mario got captured because Bowser made him all whiny and depressed for example. What let's Peach stand out is that she can resist the magical doohickey and use her emotion powers at will.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by SAMAS »

Starglider wrote: 4 games are based on tired 8/16-bit mascot platformer franchises. Mario, Sonic, Zelda etc have introduced or better characterised some female characters over the years but they still focus on male protagonists. What exactly do you want here? Should this franchises be dropped (not going to happen as they are such guaranteed earners)? Should characters like Princess Peach be reinterpreted / rebooted? Should new strong female characters be introduced and placed on an equal footing (e.g. selectable/playable alongside/instead of the main characters)? Essentially this is easy to do if there is minimal story/characterisation, expensive if you want extensive different cutscenes for different characters. Saying these franchises are relics of a sexist era is easy, saying how to modernise them while retaining profitability is harder (and no saying 'discontinue them' will not achieve anything).
Or they could just, you know, let them be playable characters, like they've actually already done. She mentions Peach's original playable role in Super Mario Bros 2 (Her complaint was about how it took all that for it to happen), though she doesn't mention Paper Mario, where while Peach was kidnapped, many sequences in the game allowed you to play as her, thus allowing Peach to have some agency in her own rescue and not just be a helpless prize.

For Zelda, she mentions how in several games, Zelda has contributed and helped Link in his adventure. Note that those times, particularly as Sheik/Tetra, are considered favorite features of the series by all fans, not just the ones lacking Y chromosomes.

Note how she never complained about the Sonic the Hedgehog series. For all it's faults, they make just about every single female character in the game playable, and many of them have equal billing to the Male protagonists (such as Sonic Adventure 2 and the Sonic Rush series).

So the solution, obviously, is to take those examples I just mentioned, and do more of that.
2 Assassin's Creed games; overwhelmingly male characters due to historical setting, there just weren't that many thematically appropriate historical females (or serving in the military, for the mooks) to work with, and also very heavy character/plot integration makes choice of protagonists impossible. It isn't obvious how the writers could have done better here.
But that didn't stop them from putting Aveline as the heroine of Assassins' Creed III Liberation.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Princess Bubblegum »

I personally can not wait for her to review more recent games

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A central mission of that game was finding Princess Bubblegum's pantyhose. Quite the different take on the damsel and distress you would say.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Zwinmar »

I just wish they would get away from voice acting for the main character. Then the characters can actually be fully customizable.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Gunhead »

Maybe her next video will have a bit more substance in it outside the "objectification of women is bad mmkay". I kinda doubt it. Damsels in distress is an extremely easy target to pick, but you really ought to be able to make a bigger point in 20 minutes than it's bad. Not all damsel in distress plots are created equal and her video would have been a lot better if she had taken the time to bring out DiD stories that are better and not go on about Peach, who's constantly getting captured by Bowser is almost an internet meme.
Objectification of a person is bad regardless of sex and while it's true women get objectified more in both games and popular culture in general, it would have made her argument stronger to point this out and dig out examples where this happens. If she's genuinely trying to reach the gamer audience, she should present a more balanced view. Most gamers are guys so if you just stand on your soap box and proclaim "X is BAAAD!", you are not going to get the people you're trying to reach listen to you. In the video she also didn't note the fact that all plots with rescue person X all feature some kind of taking away persons freedom / powers / etc. So I'm left wondering, does she object to the kidnapping? The lack of characterization? The fact that she cannot rescue herself?
If it's the first two, I can understand that and to an extent agree with them too. But the third... well if the person being held captive can escape on her own, what's the point?
If the person who is in need of a rescue can rescue himself / herself the game would be totally different or wouldn't even exist.
Sometimes it acts as a plot twist in the end, like Monkey Island, but in more serious games it would hollow the achievement of beating the game.
In more simpler games you could swap the princess for something else and basically the game would be the same, but just because you do a plot where a woman is captured and needs rescuing, it's stupid to claim you're being inherently misogynistic.

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Alkaloid »

I just wish they would get away from voice acting for the main character. Then the characters can actually be fully customizable.
Heaps of RPGs already do this. The problem with it is if you do it you loose the ability to tell more complex stories. Did you find Spec Ops the line to be immersive? Do you think it would have been improved by walker being a nameless mute so you can pretend he's called Zwinmar and sounds like you? I doubt it somehow.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Zwinmar »

How do you loose the ability to weave a complex story? There is this thing called text. Anyways, can't say I played Spec Ops honestly, and yes it would make it more immersivefor me if I can make my own character.

Keep in mind however, that most fps' break immersion for me by their very existence.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Vendetta »

Gunhead wrote:So I'm left wondering, does she object to the kidnapping? The lack of characterization? The fact that she cannot rescue herself?
What she objects to is this:
Gunhead wrote: but in more serious games it would hollow the achievement of beating the game.
The female character is reduced to providing the sense of achievement in the male character's narrative. Writing female characters like that is sexist, albeit usually via ignorance not malice.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by PeZook »

Why would it "hollow the achievement" if the prisoner has some agency in engineering her own escape, or personality and goals beyond being the prize for the protagonist?
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by TheFeniX »

Alkaloid wrote:
I just wish they would get away from voice acting for the main character. Then the characters can actually be fully customizable.
Heaps of RPGs already do this. The problem with it is if you do it you loose the ability to tell more complex stories. Did you find Spec Ops the line to be immersive? Do you think it would have been improved by walker being a nameless mute so you can pretend he's called Zwinmar and sounds like you? I doubt it somehow.
I don't think you understood his point. He wasn't talking about mute characters, but those like in KOTOR or Elder Scrolls: they have dialog, but it isn't voiced. There are really very few silent protagonists in RPGs, even if you roll in adventure games with RPG elements, although it is more prevalent there.

Either way, it really isn't a mark against the story complexity (if you can even gauge that kind of thing) to have a silent protagonist, it just has to be handled right. Obviously, if the game is centered around that particular character, you're going to have issues if you don't know what you're doing. But just having voiced dialog doesn't seem to really effect the complexity of the story in my experience. Mass Effect went crazy with it, but rarely had more than 3 dialog choices along alignments (I'm sorry: Paragon/Renegade) and Skyrim had no voice acting for the player and had about the same amount of dialog choices. These choices usually lead to the same conclusion, the only difference being the amount of bodies left in the wake.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Covenant »

I would agree that voice acting for a main character is usually unnecessary.

If you're trying to make a very strong personality, a voice can help, because it will establish who that character is. But if you're giving the player control over all the choices in the game you don't really need voice acting, since at that point it isn't about "who they are" and more about "who you are." The best way to handle character diversity is to rip out the audio. I think the mute protagonist thing is stupid, but a text-based protagonist who gets communicate via unvoiced text is perfectly fine, and it avoids any question of favoritism.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Stark »

Depends on e storytelling method. HL2 is an entirely linear shooter and would have lost nothing if Freeman ever spoke. All it would change is that he'd be a less clean slate for player identification. He'd have attributes of his own and not just 'game speaks to player directly'.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Gunhead »

PeZook wrote:Why would it "hollow the achievement" if the prisoner has some agency in engineering her own escape, or personality and goals beyond being the prize for the protagonist?
It wouldn't. I'm just objecting to the notion that for some reason a person has to have some agency in her / his escape. I specifically mentioned Monkey Island as an example where the protagonist sets off to rescue a "DiD" only to later discover she was never in any real danger. This works just fine in comedy adventure but if the plot was to wade through hordes of monsters risking life and limb and then have the person you're rescuing go "oh I handled it but thanks anyway" It would be utter bullcrap 99% of the time. But no, the prisoner having all the relevant traits was not what I was talking about.

It really does all boil down to characterization it seems. But where do you draw the line between objectifying someone and lack of characterization?


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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Vendetta »

Gunhead wrote: It wouldn't. I'm just objecting to the notion that for some reason a person has to have some agency in her / his escape.
Because agency is what seperates an actual character from an object. If the person being rescued is not a character with agency before, during, and after their imprisonment there is no difference between the hero rescuing them and retrieving their favourite teddy bear.

It's bad writing to start with, but given that it is all but inevitably one gender who is reduced to this status it is massively sexist as well. Do you understand this?
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Gunhead »

Vendetta wrote:
Because agency is what seperates an actual character from an object. If the person being rescued is not a character with agency before, during, and after their imprisonment there is no difference between the hero rescuing them and retrieving their favourite teddy bear.
I just misunderstood the meaning of agency in this context. I for some reason thought agency = having an active part.
Vendetta wrote: It's bad writing to start with, but given that it is all but inevitably one gender who is reduced to this status it is massively sexist as well. Do you understand this?
Aside from bad writing, I pretty much said as much in my first post. I did make a mistake in the follow up sentence in which I meant to say she should have dug up examples of male objectification in games and then compare how often this happens in relation to females being used as objects which would have illustrated that 1) objectifying people is bad and 2) female characters suffer from this way more.

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Stark »

Male objectification in games - just like sexism against men in real life - is totally irrelevant. Even if men weren't advantaged and in positions of power, the level of sexism against women is entirely independent of the level of sexism against men.

Its like idiots who say men being big and strong and powerful and leaders and dynamic mavericks who save the world is JUST AS BAD as women being cum dumpsters and tits-out sluts and black widows and helpless damsels. RIGHT? I'm the king and you're a slave - WE'RE BOTH VICTIMS! :lol:
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by weemadando »

B b but false equivalence doesn't exist Stark! Marcus Fenix is totally a female sexual fantasy, not at all a male power fantasy. Therefore no sexism EVA!

This comic will forever sum it up. http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/b ... uivalence/

The Hawkeye initiative is a good resource too.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by lance »

Thanas wrote:Well what female protagonists are there that are any good?

Elaine Marley, Morgan LaFay (both Monkey Island), Cate Archer (No one lives forever), maybe one incarnation of Lara Croft, Jun'ko Zane (Freelancer though not a playable character) and a very few of the Bioware RPG characters. Other than that, I have a hard time remembering some.
Nippon Ichi tends to have what I consider good female characters.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Shinova »

What exactly is a good female character? If you take most action FPS games for instance and replace the protagonist with a woman, you start getting entangled in the man with boobs trap where the character behaves for the most part like a man and is woman only in a visual sense.
What's her bust size!?

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Stark »

Putting aside that its pretty sexist to characterize typical heroic qualities as masculine, 'good' could jut be 'less bad'. You know, like people have said - a woman who isn't simply a sexual orifice, who makes decisions and has attitudes and feelings that aren't 'my my the player is pretty desirable'.

But like I said, that's putting aside the false dichotomy of masculine/feminine, which is probably the number one enforcer of sexual roles. If you let a woman work in a mans job, she'll just be a man, right? :lol:
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by Lagmonster »

Stark wrote:Putting aside that its pretty sexist to characterize typical heroic qualities as masculine, 'good' could just be 'less bad'.
Although I'm sure he didn't mean to make a reasonable point, he's not identifying characters with 'heroic' qualities so much as characters whose only available decision is whether to shoot the bad guy or explode the bad guy, and how much of either. Predilection for solving problems through violence and a demonstration of superior physical stamina, in a heirarchy built on an instinct to consider the most sexually virile and powerful person as a leader? That's traditionally masculine. For more details, see: Testosterone, Awash in.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

Post by TheFeniX »

Shinova wrote:What exactly is a good female character?
Good is pretty subjective, but I would say the first thing is to make sure your character isn't a walking stereotype.

I will say that stereotyping can be a base for a character as a starting off point and can be done without being insulting. People were flipping out when it was announced that the GTA:SA protagonist was going to be a black guy from the hood. Racists didn't want to play as a stereotypical gang-banger and media critics didn't want to see that as the main focus of an already controversial brand. The thing was, CJ ended up being arguably the most developed protagonist in GTA and IIRC the most popular. Hilariously, people are now flipping out at the possibility of a female protagonist in GTA5. "It will ruin the brand" or "Rockstar can't write good women, so they shouldn't try." The parallels are staggering now that I'm reading more about GTA5, but that's off-topic. Another time.

Lazy devs just play off the original stereotypes over and over and when they do that with women (or minorities), it gets insulting and people rightfully complain. This is mainly because most male stereotypes presented, no matter how boringly written, are positive (at least for the men), but many female stereotypes that writers flock to... not so much. So, instead they say "women leads don't sell," when they really mean "we can't write for shit, here's more bald (space?) marines, HOORAH! Please pre-order now." And they sell 10 million copies because the market is probably as bad as it's ever been, but they buy the shit out of some video games. That video, at least for me, is a perfect representation of show shitty my hobby has become due to publishers pandering to drooling idiots. Even Counter-Strike players weren't that bad.
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