SimCity [don't-call-it-5] in the works

[MKSheppard]

I'm worried about scalability. SC4 ran decently and fast enough in small cities of up to maybe 5 thousand; but if you got up to huge metropolises of liek 40k, it ran like a pig, even on my Q6600.

A lot of this extra detail seems redunant and just fatty nerdism that will add no real level of detail, while massively increasing computational requirements.

[phongn]

A lot of this extra detail seems redunant and just fatty nerdism that will add no real level of detail, while massively increasing computational requirements.

I think the idea is to generalize all aspects of the simulation to get emergent gameplay.

[Losonti Tokash]

A lot of SC4's performance issues came from the dogshit way people looked for jobs which could easily get them stuck in an infinite loop, crashing both your economy and the computer.

[Darth Tanner]

It sounds like they have finally abandoned the magic circle of service that a building delivers going instead with a real journeys. If that’s true this might actually be a good game.

[MKSheppard]

I think the idea is to generalize all aspects of the simulation to get emergent gameplay.

The example they gave in the PC Gamer article in which a traffic jam keeps the coal supply truck from getting to the power plant, causing it's supply to deplete, and then go dark; sounds cool on paper; but dumb in reality. I mean one modern coal plant being proposed in Georgia will keep a 60-90 day supply of coal on hand for eventualities such as this.

[phongn]

The example they gave in the PC Gamer article in which a traffic jam keeps the coal supply truck from getting to the power plant, causing it's supply to deplete, and then go dark; sounds cool on paper; but dumb in reality. I mean one modern coal plant being proposed in Georgia will keep a 60-90 day supply of coal on hand for eventualities such as this.

Production buildings do have input buffers in SC5, I think, but it's just a simulation abstraction. Besides, we all know the true answer is the mighty power of THE ATOM.

[PainRack]

Can't wait for the specs to come out. Hope its able to run on XP.

[Ford Prefect]

The example they gave in the PC Gamer article in which a traffic jam keeps the coal supply truck from getting to the power plant, causing it's supply to deplete, and then go dark; sounds cool on paper; but dumb in reality. I mean one modern coal plant being proposed in Georgia will keep a 60-90 day supply of coal on hand for eventualities such as this.

Jesus Christ it's a video game.

[Serafina]

I doubt that a single delayed coal delivery will shut down the plant, they most likely said it like that for illustration.
Now if you constantly have traffic jams and accidents, then of course the coal plant would eventually run dry - as would a real-life one if it doesn't get new coal for a prolonged amount of time.

[phongn]

Jesus Christ it's a video game.

Shep's saying that it'd suck as a game if your power plants constantly need fuel and would shut down at the slightest hint of bad traffic.

[Rabid]

Feed the fucker by train.

[Purple]

The example they gave in the PC Gamer article in which a traffic jam keeps the coal supply truck from getting to the power plant, causing it's supply to deplete, and then go dark; sounds cool on paper; but dumb in reality. I mean one modern coal plant being proposed in Georgia will keep a 60-90 day supply of coal on hand for eventualities such as this.

Jesus Christ it's a video game.

I dare you to go to the Dwarf Fortress forums and say that.

[phongn]

Feed the fucker by train.

Cue mile-long coal train that blocks every at-grade crossing and enrages your sims?

[MKSheppard]

Jesus Christ it's a video game.

This is SimCity, mang.

EDIT: Pointing out that "emergent" gameplay can suck dick if it substitutes for rationality/plausibility.

[Rabid]

Cue mile-long coal train that blocks every at-grade crossing and enrages your sims?

It's simple : we kill the batman we build road-bridges over the rail-tracks.


Man I already want to try to build a "modular grid city" ala Le Corbusier, just for shit'n'giggle and to see what the game-engine can make of it.

Jesus Christ it's a video game.

This is SimCity, mang.

A video-game ? Sim-City ?...
[beat]
THIS. IS. *shot in the face*

"Just in time..."

[MKSheppard]

One thing I hated with SC3 or was it SC4, was how they overpowered "renewables"; and made evil fossil/nuclear very low in power density.

[Rabid]

It must be SC3000. In SC4 I found that the coal plant was the most cost-effective way to produce power for all of the game's length, as long as you didn't mind about the pollution - and even then, isolating your power stations in a dense forest took care of most of it. Fusion cost too much unless you have to power a 250-500,000 sims/industrial jobs metropolis, and nukes are, well... fine, as long as you have a good fire department nearby - they still cost an arm, though.

[Losonti Tokash]

If you were going to game the system, it would make way more sense to just build all your power plants and factories in a separate city and sell the electricity to your main cities and include a road connection. Then you get all the jobs and electricity but the pollution never leaves the shit-town's square.

[Rabid]

That's what I did most of the time. And in this case Coal-plant were far more justified : I seem to remember that for an industrial city (no inhabitants) of medium size, totally covered in industry, I never needed more than... eight (?) coal plants, something like that. That isn't much, all things considered

[MKSheppard]

The problem is, they actually put in real world units of measurement for SC4.

The Prima guide for SC4 gives the size of each tile end as being 16 meters; so each tile is about 256m2; and they use Megawatt/hours as a measurement of power in the game.

SC4 Nuclear/Solar
Solar; 5,000 MWh/month, 6 x 6 tiles = 9,216 m2; or 0.54 MWh/month per square meter.
Nuclear; 16,000 MWh/month, 4 x 4 tiles = 4,096 m2; or 3.9 MWh/month per square meter.
Ratio: Nuclear is 7.2~ times more efficient in area than solar.

Real World Nuclear/Solar
Calvert Cliffs Nuclear: 1.2 million MWh/month, 45,900m2; or 26.14 MWh/month per square meter.
Nevada Solar One; 10,833 MWh/month; 1,222,500m2; or 0.008 MWh/month per square meter.
Ratio: Nuclear is 2,950~ times more efficient in area than solar.

Strangely, Wind Power in SC4 is crudely on the mark -- in game, they have a single 36m rotor diameter wind turbine generating 200 MWh/month; whereas in real life, a 70m rotor diameter wind turbine can generate 365 MWh/month. It's a bit off, but it's in the ballpark, rather than being whole orders of magnitude different, as in the case of Solar.

[Ford Prefect]

Big deal.

[MKSheppard]

Big deal.

Right, so you don't see something wrong with a SC4 solar power plant only 96 x 96m generating 5,000 MW/h month; when it takes in the real world, a solar plant 1,630 x 750m to generate 10,833 MW/h month?

This huge disparity makes solar unrealistically cost effective and unrealistically practical as an on-map power generation plant in SC4; when in reality, you'd have to found a small off-map city, and then fill up the entire valley with solar collectors to feed your 'clean' metropolis.

It's up there with the hydropower hack/cheat in SC2000: make hill, plop water down on side of hill, then plop dam onto waterfall = NEVER REPLACE POWER PLANT AGAIN.

[Akhlut]

Feed the fucker by train.

Cue mile-long coal train that blocks every at-grade crossing and enrages your sims?

I lived in an actual city that did that with corn/soy trains. We'd have 3 or 4 mile long trains sit at crossings for 20 minutes at a time to connect more cars to the ends or just by going at a relatively crawl (10-20mph) and you'd either have to run around them (by driving a mile or three out of your way to beat them at a crossing) or turn off the engine so you didn't waste gas while you waited.

[Marko Dash]

dammit, now I've got to go play SC4 again. it seems every time news of a sequel come out it's makes me want to play any of that series i have, was the same with halo, tropico, watching let's plays of ME3 has me wanting to try a biotic playthrough of ME2.

p.s. as to the post above, same with the lumber mill near me, anything over 3 engines and it's better to find another crossing unless it's really moving.

[fgalkin]

Big deal.

Right, so you don't see something wrong with a SC4 solar power plant only 96 x 96m generating 5,000 MW/h month; when it takes in the real world, a solar plant 1,630 x 750m to generate 10,833 MW/h month?

This huge disparity makes solar unrealistically cost effective and unrealistically practical as an on-map power generation plant in SC4; when in reality, you'd have to found a small off-map city, and then fill up the entire valley with solar collectors to feed your 'clean' metropolis.

It's up there with the hydropower hack/cheat in SC2000: make hill, plop water down on side of hill, then plop dam onto waterfall = NEVER REPLACE POWER PLANT AGAIN.

Don't forget that every nuclear plant in the game seems to be run by Homer Simpson and will melt down dramatically at some point during its lifetime. It's only a matter of when.

Yeah, all the SC games are full of enviro-nut grottiness. This is fairly well-known.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin