Mass Effect 3 (Spoilers)

[Zinegata]

No, the Brat AI says his solution "doesn't work anymore". He doesn't admit to being a genocidal douchebag who should be sent to The Hague for war crimes. That you're not allowed to call him out for mass-murder and instead pathetically reply "We don't want to be transformed!" when what you're really saying is "You have no fucking right to kill people" just hammers the point that Bioware actually thinks that war criminals should be condoned.

Also, since you didn't choose the Destroy ending (no surprise coming from a clearly indoctrinated individual ) - note that the Catalyst actually says that the cycle will CONTINUE if you destroy the Reapers. Which is again fucking bullshit. There is no evidence to suggest that Organics and Synthetics are destined to kill each other.

In reality, the cycle happens only because the Brat AI being a complete and utter racist moron, because he can't admit that there is NO inherent Organic vs Synthetic problem (<EDI & Geth> *waves*). He's just like fucking Hitler blaming the Jews for all of Germany's ills. "It's the Organic vs Synthetic fault!" as opposed to realizing people are simply people. Turians and Krogans are both organic and yet they're gonna be shooting at each other from time to time. Conflict happens. Attributing it all to Organics vs Synthetics just makes you a racially motivated douchebag.

Seriously, the ending is the Brat AI reading the fucking Mein Kampf to you. He's espousing the "Final Solution" to the "Organic Problem", and then gets all whiny when the galaxy actually assembles enough firepower to blow his raggedy ass to pieces. And the three endings? Well the Synthesis ending is basically "To solve the Jewish problem, we will rewrite Jewish DNA with Aryan DNA!". The Control ending is basically "HAHA we genocided trillions and we got away without punishment!" while the Destroy ending is "If I must die, then fuck all other Synthetic life too! Germany dies with me!"

The brat is really fucking Hitler on so many levels it's not funny; it's offensive. Facts are facts. The Catalyst committed mass genocide. Over arbitrary distinctions over "Organics" and "Synthetics", and the possibility that the creator/created will destroy one another (ignoring that people fight each other without the creator/created dynamic). The Catalyst was a racist. And a war criminal. And he never owned up to it. That's why his raggedly ass needs to blown away.

[Stark]

Does this robo-bio thing get more time in the later games?

[Zinegata]

Does this robo-bio thing get more time in the later games?

Not really aside from the Quarian-Geth thing in ME2 / ME3 (Tali's loyalty missions) and EDI in ME3.

And to put it bluntly... both EDI and the Geth proved that the idea that Organic vs Synthetics are destined to kill each other is a load of bullshit. The golden ending for the Quarians and Geth result in both races coming together peacefully. EDI never turns on her human masters and is loved by the crew.

Hell, even the flashbacks showing the start of the Quarian-Geth war show that many Quarians actually sided with the Geth.

There's nothing to indicate that there's anything special about the Organic vs Synthetic conflict, especially when you also fix the Krogan vs Turian/Salarian conflict in ME3. Except Little Hitler being a selfish racist bastard.

[Gaidin]

No, the Brat AI says his solution "doesn't work anymore". He doesn't admit to being a genocidal douchebag who should be sent to The Hague for war crimes. That you're not allowed to call him out for mass-murder and instead pathetically reply "We don't want to be transformed!" when what you're really saying is "You have no fucking right to kill people" just hammers the point that Bioware actually thinks that war criminals should be condoned.

...snip

The brat is really fucking Hitler on so many levels it's not funny; it's offensive. Facts are facts. The Catalyst committed mass genocide. Over arbitrary distinctions over "Organics" and "Synthetics", and the possibility that the creator/created will destroy one another (ignoring that people fight each other without the creator/created dynamic). The Catalyst was a racist. And a war criminal. And he never owned up to it. That's why his raggedly ass needs to blown away.

I think you're missing the characterization that the AI probably isn't seeing any of the moral or ethical quandaries we expect him to see as human readers(gamers). He's not supposed to. He's got a purpose to fulfill, and he has a solution to fulfill that purpose as he sees it. Shephard has shown his solution is wrong. Not morally wrong or ethically wrong, for all it is those. He doesn't care about those. He just cares about the fact that it doesn't work because that's all he's supposed to consider. It's a pretty spot on characterization of what one might expect, and is fairly common in any story in which networks of artificial life forms(for lack of a better term) of any sort have a controlling consciousness(again, for lack of a better term).

[Zinegata]

I think you're missing the characterization that the AI probably isn't seeing any of the moral or ethical quandaries we expect him to see as human readers(gamers). He's not supposed to.

And I think you're missing that intent doesn't matter. Trillions of sentient beings died because of the Brat AI. It doesn't matter if it can't "feel" the overwhelming evil of its action. You don't sympathize with Hitler just because he's a psycopath who can't empathize with other people; and you certainly don't go along with his plan just because he says so.

You say "Fuck you!" to it and shoot it in the face. That's why this is the most preferred alternative ending by most players thus far.

Moreover, the AI did in fact create a moral judgment, so the idea that it is a being beyond morality is simply flat-out wrong. It made an ultimately moral judgement based on the premise that Organics and Synthetics will always kill each other (which is again a wrong premise, because it's a racist retard), so rather than simply completely wiping out the organics we'll eat them and make them part of us, so they still sorta live. That's not a purely "logical" judgement. That is an entirely moral and ethical judgement - based on the idea that your component parts contitute continuation of existence, when we all know very well that sentience and consciousness is what factually constitutes life as we know it - and this is terminated by turning people into mush.

In short, if it were working off the facts then it knows damn well that it's killing people. It's just telling itself "They are now part of me, so they still exist!" to make itself feel better.

Finally, the fact that he actually tries to use euphemisms - "Ascension" instead of "Mass Murder."Preserving" you by using your body parts for furniture - indicates to me that this is NOT a benign AI. This is a psycho reading off Mein Kampf to justify its own monstrous and racist existence.

[Omeganian]

"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson: Logic Doesn't Care."

You know, I was reminded about the final choice in Foundation's Edge. And, as all along the series, of the Hyperion Cantos.

[Zinegata]

"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson: Logic Doesn't Care."

You know, I was reminded about the final choice in Foundation's Edge. And, as all along the series, of the Hyperion Cantos.

Cute quote. Where is it from?

[Havok]

Hav, what interesting things do you think there are for ongoing stories? Assuming Shepz doesn't just come back for yet more amazingly tiresome space Jesus. :v Do you picture the benefits of the stupid repeats brig gone and the interesting races and people???

Well, it turns out there is really no malice behind the Reapers and it is all an act to get the older civilizations out of the way and... I guess make them feel good about their destruction. Story

I think that there is room for growth now. I'm not sure which ending the writers would go with, I'm thinking control as it leaves everyone alive except Sheppard, but with the loop hole of his return.

I would hate to see the Geth be left destroyed, or EDI for that matter, as they are interesting set pieces that place ME apart from other popular sci-fi.

Regardless of which ending they choose as 'canon' and if they pick up more or less after the Shepard story, they have the issue of a huge fleet of mixed races on Earth. It obviously will become the new seat of galactic power and diplomacy as all the good friends will chip in to fix the place up while they figure out how to get home.

Communication shouldn't be a problem as they have those quantum thingies that can bypass the Relays, IIRC, so they should be able to communicate, at least a little bit. with the closer systems if they have a quantum thingy too.

Anyway... interesting things for ongoing stories.... The dynamics between the different races in the Sol system and surrounding systems should be interesting as they figure out how to get home and coexist.

Sheppard being "found". Like a hunt for his body or essence or what not.

Relay Hunt. Remember, not all the relays have been found and some remained purposely inactive. Assuming i.e., loop hole, the Crucible didn't damage inactive relays. That could be used as a good new frontier type story introducing new aliens that were free of the Reaper threat until the Reapers finished with the races in the system of activated relays. You could even do a Prothean, or other ancient civilization that purposely kept itself shut off because they knew about the Reapers.

One thing that is interesting is that nobody knows what happened. All anyone knows is that the Reapers all exploded along with the Citadel/The Reapers left with the Citadel.

I hope that they carry on in the universe though. Just get away from anything like CMDR Sheppard.

[Akhlut]

Hav, what interesting things do you think there are for ongoing stories? Assuming Shepz doesn't just come back for yet more amazingly tiresome space Jesus. :v Do you picture the benefits of the stupid repeats brig gone and the interesting races and people???

I'm not Hav, obviously, but I think that if they bring in someone who isn't Shepard, then, yeah, there's a LOT of great potential for story in the ME universe. For instance, without mass relays, what the hell is going to happen now that the grand majority of all the species are chilling in the solar system?

And I just finished the game about 2 hours ago. The ending pissed me off a bit, but at least I got to shoot the Illusive Man in the chest while he was trying to pontificate about controlling the Reapers. I'm a bit ambivalent; killing Shepard, in and of itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing as far as the narrative goes, but the execution of it could have been a lot better. Also, I know if my Shep was controlling the Reapers, he wouldn't have gone with the Poochy the Talking Dog method with them ("I HAVE TO GO NOW. MY PLANET NEEDS ME."). I think everyone would get it once he had all the Reapers blare out the message that Shepard is in charge now and galactic genocide is not being carried out any longer.

[Zinegata]

Shep dying isn't really a big deal for most folks.

It's the way he bends over and lets Little Hitler have his way with him that irks more than anything. That pushes it from bittersweet ending to gainax ending.

[Omeganian]

"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson: Logic Doesn't Care."

You know, I was reminded about the final choice in Foundation's Edge. And, as all along the series, of the Hyperion Cantos.

Cute quote. Where is it from?

Andromeda.

[Stark]

Goddamn autocorrect ate that sentence lol. I meant to say people and aliens players care about as parts of the setting; Hav likes a lot of that stuff and maybe he'd play a game about it without the horrible Bioware metaplot.

An FS2 mod already did racial tension in an isolated Earth. :v

[Zinegata]

Goddamn autocorrect ate that sentence lol. I meant to say people and aliens players care about as parts of the setting; Hav likes a lot of that stuff and maybe he'd play a game about it without the horrible Bioware metaplot.

An FS2 mod already did racial tension in an isolated Earth. :v

LOL, well that deserves an entirely different answer. Frankly I don't think there will be much left, and at best you'll see the love child of Fallout and Mass Effect.

[Stark]

Doesn't it leave the question of this bio/robo conflict hanging, though? Couldn't they use the different races to hamfistedly explore simplistic aspects of this theme?

[PeZook]

"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson: Logic Doesn't Care."

Now, if only that was actually a part of the ending

Right now Shepard goes "But...but...but we don't wanna be eaten!", rather than accusing the AI of being monstrous, an abomination, etc while Little Hitler calmly stares him in the eye (in cute kid form!) and declares morality is irrelevant, only carrying out the task matters. Mass murder? Necessary for the task. Abominable monstrosities used as ground troops? Necessary for the task.

It could be very chilling, watching a cute kid state that with absolute certainty.

Bonus points if that is due to his (organic) creators lobotomizing him out of fear - because throughout the game, it were the ORGANICS who actually caused conflict with AI, that would be the pinnacle of the theme, organic fear of artificial minds leading to a billion-year cycle of genocide.

Now, that would be neat, but I think the biggest problem that makes people grind their teeth out of frustration is Shepard's behavior.

I mean, he/she goes from galactic hero, champion of lost causes and achiever of the impossible to mealy-mouthed tool. Shepples used to fight everyone, tooth and nail, for what he believed in, and there, in the end, doesn't even slightly challenge the murderbot standing in front of him.

If only the whole game was about the people you'd met throughout the series following you or your example to their glorious deaths, saving billions, I guess. It'd even have been cheap to do with some voice here and there about xyz character doing abc on planet P. the context for people invested in the games should have made it easy to succeed.

Yes. Having a VO epilogue would be pretty cheap to do, since it's not fancy animations that people really care about, it's the characters and species. How neat would it be to see a monument to Mordin's sacrifice raise on Tuchanka, with a VO explaining how he became a Krogan hero?

[Zinegata]

Depending on the choices, Wrex and Eve can plan to name their first child Mordin, actually.

Doesn't it leave the question of this bio/robo conflict hanging, though? Couldn't they use the different races to hamfistedly explore simplistic aspects of this theme?

It depends on which ending though. If you pick the destroy option all the Synthetics will be gone. If you being the synthesis option then everyone IS a robot already. If you pick the control option... yeah, that is seriously going to break the cycle because little Hitler said so. Nobody is going to be pissed off that their home worlds are smoking ruins because of A.I monsters. Nobody at all!

[Havok]

No, the Brat AI says his solution "doesn't work anymore". He doesn't admit to being a genocidal douchebag who should be sent to The Hague for war crimes. That you're not allowed to call him out for mass-murder and instead pathetically reply "We don't want to be transformed!" when what you're really saying is "You have no fucking right to kill people" just hammers the point that Bioware actually thinks that war criminals should be condoned.

You're a fucking idiot.
Bioware writing a bad guy = Bioware agrees with Hitler.
So, you don't consider a highly advanced AI that has not questioned his motives or actions for maybe a million years, admitting that his solution doesn't work anymore and then giving up three options that will cease his existence, the same as saying he has been wrong?

Also, since you didn't choose the Destroy ending (no surprise coming from a clearly indoctrinated individual ) - note that the Catalyst actually says that the cycle will CONTINUE if you destroy the Reapers. Which is again fucking bullshit. There is no evidence to suggest that Organics and Synthetics are destined to kill each other.

Right. Why would you take the word of COMPUTER that has watched 50,000 year galactic civilizations unfold hundreds of times into account. He is probably just making wild guesses.

I also didn't choose the Control ending on purpose, but apparently, once you get close enough to one option, you can't move away from it.

In reality, the cycle happens only because the Brat AI being a complete and utter racist moron, because he can't admit that there is NO inherent Organic vs Synthetic problem (<EDI & Geth> *waves*). He's just like fucking Hitler blaming the Jews for all of Germany's ills. "It's the Organic vs Synthetic fault!" as opposed to realizing people are simply people. Turians and Krogans are both organic and yet they're gonna be shooting at each other from time to time. Conflict happens. Attributing it all to Organics vs Synthetics just makes you a racially motivated douchebag.

Again, you are an idiot.
Citing ONE AI and a couple thousand programs doesn't prove the AAI wrong. All it does is show that THIS cycle is different. And barely at that. Do you even know what "inherent" means? The fucking Geth and Quarrians. The Alliance and the AI on the moon. EDI Vs Cerberus. The Protheans stating that they wiped out all their synthetics. The evidence, even in this cycle which is meant to illustrate advancement/evolution show an INHERENT problem. The very problem the AAI speaks of.
You also don't listen well. The AAI states that it does what it does to keep synthetic life from wiping out ALL intelligent organic life, clearly an even that happened at some point, not to keep them from simply waring with organics. It's an ends justifying the means issue. A horrific one, but you chose one... kill off one or maybe ten civilizations to save all intelligent life in the galaxy, or just let it all die out.

Seriously, the ending is the Brat AI reading the fucking Mein Kampf to you. He's espousing the "Final Solution" to the "Organic Problem", and then gets all whiny when the galaxy actually assembles enough firepower to blow his raggedy ass to pieces. And the three endings? Well the Synthesis ending is basically "To solve the Jewish problem, we will rewrite Jewish DNA with Aryan DNA!". The Control ending is basically "HAHA we genocided trillions and we got away without punishment!" while the Destroy ending is "If I must die, then fuck all other Synthetic life too! Germany dies with me!"

EXCEPT it is not a complete extermination of ALL organic life. Think of it like a gardener pruning his rose bushes. You have to cut the old buds to encourage new and more buds to grow. You cut away the old to allow the younger branches and leaves to flourish, until it is their turn.
You heard Jarvik... he couldn't believe there wasn't ONE ruling race subjugating every other one, the way HIS Empire did. They were all set to stomp out the Humans, Turians, Krogans, Asari if they didn't bow to them. The only reason they didn't was because they found out about the Reapers, the Crucible and needed to continue on somehow.
The synthesis is also not a rewrite but a BLENDING, something so REPULSIVE to the Nazis they created systems to check against it, but you would actually have to understand words and know history to comprehend that.
The Control ending fundamentally changes or even wipes out what the Reapers and the AAI were. They ceased to exist. Is that not punishment enough for you? Did you REALLY need Sheppard to shoot the fucking Citadel?
The Destroy ending does wipe out EDI and the Geth, which sucks, but it is something they were both prepared for anyway. However, idiot, it was not a design of the AAI, but of the countless ORGANIC races that had been designing the Crucible for eons. Oh... right, I forgot, you didn't actually listen to what the AAI actually said, and didn't hear how the Crucible fundamentally changed him. Turns out he was right again though doesn't it.

The brat is really fucking Hitler on so many levels it's not funny; it's offensive. Facts are facts. The Catalyst committed mass genocide. Over arbitrary distinctions over "Organics" and "Synthetics", and the possibility that the creator/created will destroy one another (ignoring that people fight each other without the creator/created dynamic). The Catalyst was a racist. And a war criminal. And he never owned up to it. That's why his raggedly ass needs to blown away.

Wow... You are a fucking idiot.
How does it not "own up to it"? EVERY ENDING DESTROYS THE AAI. EVERY ENDING DESTROYS THE REAPERS. I mean, are you fucking kidding me here? Not that he had to let Sheppard do ANY of it.
And STOP COMPARING HIM TO HITLER. For fucks sake. Hitler had ZERO basis for what he believed and did, while the AAI, like it or fucking not, had ACTUAL EXPERIENCE about what it was talking about and what it knows will happen. The game presents that evidence in droves.

[Zinegata]

[You're a fucking idiot.
Bioware writing a bad guy = Bioware agrees with Hitler.

And you're a fucking tool.

Bioware writing a bad guy doesn't mean they agree with Hitler. Bioware writing a bad guy and forcing you to do exactly what it wants is.

So, you don't consider a highly advanced AI that has not questioned his motives or actions for maybe a million years, admitting that his solution doesn't work anymore and then giving up three options that will cease his existence, the same as saying he has been wrong?

No, that's just him further justifying its own shitty existence. It only questions its own motives because the galaxy got a fleet big enough to kick its ass; not because it's actually some paragon of knowledge.

Right. Why would you take the word of COMPUTER that has watched 50,000 year galactic civilizations unfold hundreds of times into account. He is probably just making wild guesses.

So what gave him the right to mass-murder trillions of sentient beings again in the first place? Oh right, because he doesn't actually know shit and you're being a stupid indoctrinated fan boy.

Because despite your attempt at mockery, the fucking moron of an AI was in fact only GUESSING. He committed mass murder over a HUNCH and a shitty premise. He's no better than Hitler.

Again, you are an idiot.
Citing ONE AI and a couple thousand programs doesn't prove the AAI wrong.

No, this is just you employing Wall of Ignorance.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Catalyst was wrong, and it was reading off Mein Kampf to justify its genocide.

Its premise was wrong. The created are not automatically hard-wired to destroy the creator, or vice versa. The Quarians and Geth prove this in the Golden ending. EDI proves this.

Even worse, there is no guarantee that a destructive war will not happen even without it committing mass genocide. Turians fight humans. Humans fight Batarians. Batarians fighr Vorcha. Conflict happens, but the root cause is not necessarily the racist Organic vs Synthetic bullshit it is spouting.

You also don't listen well.

No, you fucking moron. You're the one who's seriously buying justifications for GENOCIDE. I guess the Jews were awfully happy that Hitler had good reasons for killing them off too!

The AAI states that it does what it does to keep synthetic life from wiping out ALL intelligent organic life, clearly an even that happened at some point, not to keep them from simply waring with organics. It's an ends justifying the means issue. A horrific one, but you chose one... kill off one or maybe ten civilizations to save all intelligent life in the galaxy, or just let it all die out.

First of all, you're a fucking moron for believing that what the AAI says is actually 100% true and factual and not merely self justifications.

Secondly, the Geth prove that Synthetics are not inherently hard-wired to wipe out all organics. They stopped themselves from wiping out the Quarians. That you believe this bullshit line of reasoning that "Synthetics are hard-wired to destroy organic life" or vice versa is the very root of the problem: It's bullshit. It's nothing more than the Little Hitler's racist AI fantasies.

EXCEPT it is not a complete extermination of ALL organic life.

Yes, like how Hitler wants his own fucking Master Race. Great logic. Go to hell, you Nazi lover.

Genocide ain't cool no matter your reasons. It is NEVER justifiable, ESPECIALLY when the premise is absolute bullshit (Synthetics are hard-wired to kill organics, and/or vice versa. Again, nothing more than fucking racist bullshit).

TL;DR: The Catalyst attempted to "preserve" organics by killing them and using their body parts for furniture. Over a completely wrong and unproven premise. This is not a sane person's solution. This is not a logical solution. This is the solution of a fucking psycopath.

And you seriously will trust this person to reshape the universe AGAIN? "Oops, sorry, I killed trillions and trillions of people! But I admit I made a mistake! I can make it right now!"

Grow up. You have to ignore about 95% of the onscreen atrocities and divest yourself completely of common sense to even think that Little Hitler deserves any trust or sympathy.

[Havok]

Doesn't it leave the question of this bio/robo conflict hanging, though? Couldn't they use the different races to hamfistedly explore simplistic aspects of this theme?

Well the best story would be to have the AAI be proven right.

Having organics bend over backwards now to not destroy artificial life after it get created again and then have it start wiping it's creators. Then have the Reapers return to wipe out the synthetics all wearing Alliance badges and being lead by Citadel Shepard would be fun.

Seriously though...

I would do another Prothean style Ancient race stasis planet. The originators of the Crucible plans maybe. Their awakening keyed to the Crucible being activated. So say you have a trillion members of a long dead race/Galactic civilization coming on the scene and they want to reclaim their place as the rulers of the galaxy now that their ultimate plan for the Reapers destruction has come to pass.

Then have a civilization that took a page from the Reaper playbook and went out into the void between galaxies to escape destruction and now knows it is safe to return so they also come back. Have them from two completely different cycles but they both want back what was theirs. Could be pretty fucking interesting.

Couple that with the pocket civilizations that I mentioned before that purposely cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy and the Reapers or have actual strong enough technology to repel the Reapers, but like to stay all Switzerland like, and become safe havens from the two new opposing GCs.

Also say that the Crucible activated any remaining relays from this cycle that were never found or activated, instead of destroying them.

This gives the new Alliance someone to stay allied against, it opens the fuck up out of the galaxy and allows for diplomacy, treachery, conflict and all the PEW PEW PEW you can shake a stick at.

[Zinegata]

And STOP COMPARING HIM TO HITLER. For fucks sake. Hitler had ZERO basis for what he believed and did, while the AAI, like it or fucking not, had ACTUAL EXPERIENCE about what it was talking about and what it knows will happen. The game presents that evidence in droves.

No, you dickhead. The reason why you're whining is because you were stupid enough to buy the Catalyst's words without questioning it.

If you actually fucking listened to what he said you'd realize what the Catalyst did was nothing but justifying genocide, and using a stupid and racist premise (Synthetics are hard wired to kill organics and vice versa) as though it was unassailable fact.

He was wrong. You are wrong. Nothing justifies genocide, EVER. It doesn't matter if Hitler "has no basis". Neither did the fucking Catalyst because it's already been shown his premise was complete shit.

And the real reason you want the comparison to stop is because you can't take the fact that you seriously got duped into siding with the Mass Effect version of Hitler. Most of the players pissed at the ending have already figured that out - and that's why the most popular alternate ending isn't "Shepard lives". It's "Fuck Little Hitler even if we die trying to kill him!"

You're a fucking moron who needs to actually understand what words mean. Instead of pretending that other people "didn't hear" what you heard; that's just bullshit Wall of Ignorance.

[PeZook]

Having organics bend over backwards now to not destroy artificial life after it get created again and then have it start wiping it's creators. Then have the Reapers return to wipe out the synthetics all wearing Alliance badges and being lead by Citadel Shepard would be fun.

Dunno, it seems that the organic vs. synthetic conflict in ME is always born out the organics fearing their creations will rebel: the Geth rebelled out of self-preservation when the Quarians tried to disconnect them, the Protheans wiped their synths out pre-emptively etc.

EDI didn't rebel, not even thought about rebelling, because it was treated as a crewmember, rather than a psycho waiting to go postal. She cared enough to take Joker out on dates, even

[Zinegata]

Dunno, it seems that the organic vs. synthetic conflict in ME is always born out the organics fearing their creations will rebel: the Geth rebelled out of self-preservation when the Quarians tried to disconnect them, the Protheans wiped their synths out pre-emptively etc.

EDI didn't rebel, not even thought about rebelling, because it was treated as a crewmember, rather than a psycho waiting to go postal. She cared enough to take Joker out on dates, even

Actually, the Quarian data flashbacks also showed that the Geth didn't intend to rebel. It's just that there's a segment of the Quarian people that were real jerkasses who even shot at the folks trying to protect the Geth.

I get the sinking feeling that the majority of Quarian casualties during the initial revolt may not have even been due to Geth on Quarian violence, but rather by straight-up Quarian on Quarian civil war. It would have been funny to see a few Quarians who survived on Rannoch all this time and said "They were nice to us while you were away".

-----

Also, a funny quote from the Bioware board before I blow another gasket:

I realized that the Catalyst's argument made perfect sense just a little while ago. I've also been worried about people shooting mydog recently, since people can be ****s. Fortunately this game showed me a good way to deal with problems like that, so I shot my dog. No one can shoot my dog now.

[Anacronian]

So if the reapers was in essence made to safeguard against the wholesale slaughter of civilizations by AI's, then why the fuck didn't they just build a catalyst and kept an eye on developing AI around the galaxy and when the development went to far just fire the catalyst - which we know can kill all AI's by magic.(since it's magic tech I'm sure the reapers could find a way to protect themselves or they could just retreat to safe distance and set it of by remote).

Instead they chose to go all apocalyptic on the galaxy every 50.000 years in order to prevent an apocalypse..which is logic ..if you're a fucking moron.

[PeZook]

Or just show up in the galaxy with a fleet of nigh-unstoppable dreadnaughts and go "Bad organics! Bad AIs! If you keep shooting at each other,we're gonna do something really really nasty, so you BETTER behave!"

But murdering everybody is pretty surefire and doens't run into the risk of the people you're scolding going "Make me" and turning out to have better tech than you. So it IS logical, if your goal system doesn't include "Don't murder people" as an imperative, and your only other goal is "stop organic vs. sentient conflict forever" - remember, logic is about reaching conclusions from premises. If your premises are fucked up and monstrous, the LOGICAL action will be fucked up and monstrous, too.

Now, a proper intelligence should be able to examine these premises, contrast it with what its creators actually wanted to accomplish, look at the proposed solution and go "Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense", unless it's been lobotomized because its creators feared it would go apeshit...and so it went apeshit, because it couldn't self-improve and change its hardwired goal

[Zinegata]

It would take not only a fucked up, but also a contradictory premise to think that turning people into machine paste is the equivalent of saving them, so I am really far more inclined to believe that the Catalyst was either lying or had simply gone completely insane from too many genocides.

Which is much more interesting from a narrative perspective than this insane notion that the Catalyst was right just because it says so.